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[Spoilers] Discussion: Season 10

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Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, April said:

What I would have loved for Leonard to do is take a page of Penny's "How to deal with Sheldon 101" book and read him the riot act but I guess that would have been too much effort and take away too much from him playing the poor victim?!? I mean, seriously, this guy has lived with Sheldon for 13 years and has apparently learned not a single fucking thing about dealing with him all the while watching this own wife effortlessly whipping Sheldon into shape when he was a dick to her or generally annoying as hell. I don't like it when characters just throw their hands in the air like "whatever shall we do about Sheldon!?" And judging by how it's often the women who manage to deal with Sheldon just fine is answer is supposedly "You woman up and stop taking his crap!" (Maybe now that Sheldon is out of 4A Leonard can learn a lesson or two!?)

But whining like "Sheldon is mean - he wants the sword and the plant!" doesn't get you anywhere, neither will challenging to a stupid fight that you just know will end in a petty revenge plan. Then again as the end reveals Leonard knew what he was doing with that and I guess he is secretly totally into these silly fights saying that with Sheldon gone it's not the same anymore - I guess the sex dungeon dream was some weird foreshadowing, eh? LOL

OK, but let´s pretend it´s not a sitcom. Where things are maybe real and logical to explain. So you can pretty sum up what Leonard should have known and therefore shouldn´t have done. But here is the question. What is the solution to deal with Sheldon´s egocentric and selfish behaviour? I am sure the women didn´t have find a way to deal, but mostly has accepted that there is no deal. For instance Penny, she really has tried to fight, but now hardly does but mostly gives in. Amy? When has she called him out. Ok by breaking of with Sheldon, is that the way? So to me the only deal is, to accept that Sheldon is who he is. Well that´s a great view. As of the whining part of Leonard. For F. sake, what´s that cliche everytime. Yes he did whine a lot in the relationship with Penny. Which was very annoying in season 2-3. But I have to say he really has grown. I never saw Leonard with this confidence and Self esteem as in this season. He certainly shows a lot of humor about and over himself. Anyway, his complaints about Sheldon calling whining is hilarious. If someone portrays himself whining it´s Sheldon over a freaking flag, over wanting the sword and everything, over being jealous that a colleague has won a prize etc. 

Edited by john2p

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Posted (edited)

29 minutes ago, April said:

 

And you're really not the only person to feel that the show could be more balanced. Heck, even many if not most Sheldon/Shamy fans would love a more balanced show as well. So there's really no team "we only want Sheldon stories!" on here from what I can tell. Basically:

TBBTyourepreachingtothechoir.gif

:icon_wink::icon_cheesygrin:

I know, we are one family ;) for the love of TBBT. But like Shelnard we have to defend our preferences  and sometimes give in :P. But in the end we love all of them. Me too, though maybe it doesn´t seem so. I really love the Shamy and Sheldon. But Yes I want more balance :D-.  

Edited by john2p
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Posted (edited)

22 hours ago, john2p said:

OK, but let´s pretend it´s not a sitcom. Where things are maybe real and logical to explain. So you can pretty sum up what Leonard should have known and therefore shouldn´t have done. But here is the question. What is the solution to deal with Sheldon´s egocentric and selfish behaviour? I am sure the women didn´t have find a way to deal, but mostly has accepted that there is no deal.

For instance Penny, she really has tried to fight, but now hardly does but mostly gives in.

Penny was literally yelling at him to stop his whining as recent as 10x09. LMAO

Quote

Amy? When has she called him out. Ok by breaking of with Sheldon, is that the way? So to me the only deal is, to accept that Sheldon is who he is.

In 10x10 she pointed out to Sheldon that he was being selfish and he should share - which prompted him then to offer Leonard something to choose. I mean, I'm regularly a bit frustrated when Amy is too gentle and caring but she can handle Sheldon just fine.

Quote

Well that´s a great view. As of the whining part of Leonard. For F. sake, what´s that cliche everytime. Yes he did whine a lot in the relationship with Penny. Which was very annoying in season 2-3. But I have to say he really has grown. I never saw Leonard with this confidence and Self esteem as in this season. He certainly shows a lot of humor about and over himself. Anyway, his complaints about Sheldon calling whining is hilarious. If someone portrays himself whining it´s Sheldon over a freaking flag, over wanting the sword and everything, over being jealous that a colleague has won a prize etc. 

News flash: Both characters can be whiny. Shocking, I know! Sheldon being whiny due to his jealousy doesn't cancel out Leonard being whiny. Leonard has his moments when he's more confident and fun but that doesn't erase that he also has moments when he, well, isn't. I'd even go as far and say that characters like Leonard and Sheldon can be more than one thing at one moment! I know it's crazytalk but hear me out: In 10x09 Sheldon was whiny and jealous and even angry and a bit stupid, tbh. In 10x Leonard was whiny and frustrated and feisty and even a bit bored, I guess. How boring would it be if they were only one thing? :icon_cheesygrin:

22 hours ago, john2p said:

I know, we are one family ;) for the love of TBBT. But like Shelnard we have to defend our preferences  and sometimes give in :P. But in the end we love all of them. Me too, though maybe it doesn´t seem so. I really love the Shamy and Sheldon. But Yes I want more balance :D-.  

TBBTgirlshighfive.gif

 

lennysexdungeon10x07.gif

Edited by Tensor
Removed quote that has been hidden.
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1 hour ago, john2p said:

The bottom line for me in this discussion is (and call out for the writers-producers): Wether it´s Sheldon learning, evolving, or whatever, it is too (!!) much.

Yes. That's exactly it. I think the fact that people have to argue "well this jealousy episode is different than that jealousy episode because you see Sheldon is learning to deal with professional jealousy in this one and oh oh also he gets punished in this one but not that one" is exactly what goes wrong with the show right now. There's too much Sheldon. 

The writers actually have to recycle plots and make small changes to them so they don't look exactly the same. Because there are only so many possible storylines to write for Sheldon, they now are doing sub-categories in order to not repeat themselves. Thus we have "Sheldon gets jealously type A, Sheldon gets jealousy type B, Sheldon being mean type A to Z, Sheldon being mean type A with punishment, Sheldon being mean type A without punishment, etc." While other characters (to be more exact Lenny and Amy) only gets an astounding "supporting Sheldon". 

If you think of storylines as food, Sheldon is like this billionaire who's unhappy because he can't decide which kind of luxury wine to have after his big meal in his palace made of gold. At the same time other characters are starving and begging for bread in the street.

I used to think the writers choose to focus so much on Sheldon because general audience love Sheldon and love everything he does. But recently I find out that's not entirely true. What they love is a funny, cute Sheldon, not an overly annoying or a mean one. About the most recent episode, the comment that gets most "likes" on social media site in my country is the one saying Sheldon is a bit too much in this episode and it makes it hard for people to laugh. 

I think the writers have realized the problem but they're just too lazy to change or because people are still watching, they don't have enough motive to change. Writing stories and jokes for Sheldon is just too easy. They're too good at doing it after all these years.

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Everybody got their kinks... don't judge! ;D
lennysexdungeon10x07.gif

Whatever turns you on.

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10 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Yes. That's exactly it. I think the fact that people have to argue "well this jealousy episode is different than that jealousy episode because you see Sheldon is learning to deal with professional jealousy in this one and oh oh also he gets punished in this one but not that one" is exactly what goes wrong with the show right now. There's too much Sheldon. 

The writers actually have to recycle plots and make small changes to them so they don't look exactly the same. Because there are only so many possible storylines to write for Sheldon, they now are doing sub-categories in order to not repeat themselves. Thus we have "Sheldon gets jealously type A, Sheldon gets jealousy type B, Sheldon being mean type A to Z, Sheldon being mean type A with punishment, Sheldon being mean type A without punishment, etc." While other characters (to be more exact Lenny and Amy) only gets an astounding "supporting Sheldon". 

If you think of storylines as food, Sheldon is like this billionaire who's unhappy because he can't decide which kind of luxury wine to have after his big meal in his palace made of gold. At the same time other characters are starving and begging for bread in the street.

I used to think the writers choose to focus so much on Sheldon because general audience love Sheldon and love everything he does. But recently I find out that's not entirely true. What they love is a funny, cute Sheldon, not an overly annoying or a mean one. About the most recent episode, the comment that gets most "likes" on social media site in my country is the one saying Sheldon is a bit too much in this episode and it makes it hard for people to laugh. 

I think the writers have realized the problem but they're just too lazy to change or because people are still watching, they don't have enough motive to change. Writing stories and jokes for Sheldon is just too easy. They're too good at doing it after all these years.

And I think they have realised the problem with "mean Sheldon" which is exactly why we're getting so many "Sheldon actually learns a lesson this time" stories. They soften him one bit at a time - not too much too sudden, mind you, because "Sheldon will always be Sheldon" uggghh - but still in noticeable steps.

The thing about repetitive plotting though: this is a long running show, it is bound to happen. There's nothing new under the sun and there are limitations by the show format/genre/the writer's creativity. So while the writers go down their "how to soften Sheldon" to do list they will inevitably end up with similar situations - sometimes intentional as a direct parallel/callback to a past story, sometimes accidental cause there are just so many ways you can write about, say, Sheldon getting jealous over a colleague's success. What is then the important difference is how the character deals with the situation and how they come away from it, like: Did they learn something?

Anyway, as already said, I'm definitely on team "more balance" with you. I think the writers have pushed Sheldon far enough that it's time to finally give the other characters some time in the spotlight as well. And even as an audience member who still enjoys all the Sheldon/Shamy goodness it's like being offered my favourite chocolate all the time but every once in a while I just want a bag of chips or two instead.

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I liked Leonard in 10x10. Although it's not the most admirable of qualities, I really liked the vindictive swat he gave Sheldon. IMO, Sheldon was horribly selfish and self-centered (as was Penny removing his things the week before). In a nugget of self-worth and another vindictive move, Leonard secretly hid Penny's pillows. So now, with the next show, we have the same issue, Leonard being stripped off all the little things that help to make Leonard, Leonard. So, I'm only guessing that Penny didn't find/realize those pillows were missing because we now see an emboldened Leonard. Who learned from his pillow hiding the week before. He surrendered, telling Sheldon to take it all. But it hurt. He was upset and obviously didn't feel as if it would be worth the war. And rather than taking back or hiding things in secret (as he did with Penny) he stood up and fed the vengeful streak that was burning his soul by taking the important flag to Sheldon that he didn't want and could care less for. In his own maladaptive way, he stood up to Sheldon by trying to make him feel, on some level, the hurt and injustice he felt. I liked it. He didn't whine or cave but instead bit back. Like I said at the start, not the most admirable of qualities and certainly maladaptive but still to see Leonard hiss with his fangs bared, I liked it. 

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10 minutes ago, 5Mississippis said:

I liked Leonard in 10x10. Although it's not the most admirable of qualities, I really liked the vindictive swat he gave Sheldon. IMO, Sheldon was horribly selfish and self-centered (as was Penny removing his things the week before). In a nugget of self-worth and another vindictive move, Leonard secretly hid Penny's pillows. So now, with the next show, we have the same issue, Leonard being stripped off all the little things that help to make Leonard, Leonard. So, I'm only guessing that Penny didn't find/realize those pillows were missing because we now see an emboldened Leonard. Who learned from his pillow hiding the week before. He surrendered, telling Sheldon to take it all. But it hurt. He was upset and obviously didn't feel as if it would be worth the war. And rather than taking back or hiding things in secret (as he did with Penny) he stood up and fed the vengeful streak that was burning his soul by taking the important flag to Sheldon that he didn't want and could care less for. In his own maladaptive way, he stood up to Sheldon by trying to make him feel, on some level, the hurt and injustice he felt. I liked it. He didn't whine or cave but instead bit back. Like I said at the start, not the most admirable of qualities and certainly maladaptive but still to see Leonard hiss with his fangs bared, I liked it. 

Honestly, I would absolutely adore if the writers somehow cobble together a bit of a story arc for Leonard from this. Like you I loved him being so feisty in this (the flag toga was one of my fave moments! LOL) and I would love it even more if Leonard slowly but steadily stands up for himself. He's always been the kind of, well, submissive part to Sheldon and also to Penny - hence why both can easily take away his stuff without much of a fight from him. I would love for him to blossom a little now that he's free from Sheldon and can explore his marriage with Penny to find some balance there as well. <3

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Posted (edited)

31 minutes ago, April said:

And I think they have realised the problem with "mean Sheldon" which is exactly why we're getting so many "Sheldon actually learns a lesson this time" stories. They soften him one bit at a time - not too much too sudden, mind you, because "Sheldon will always be Sheldon" uggghh - but still in noticeable steps.

 

I can agree 1009 counts as a "noticeable step", but I don't think 1010 counts. Because of the poor, lame resolvement of conflict, aka Theodore telling Shelnard that their anger comes from their love, it minimizes the suppose-to-be "Sheldon making progress and learning things" part or "a sweet Shelnard moment" part, and magnifies the "Sheldon being selfish and annoying" part. As a result, Sheldon seems unchanged, which is probably why so many people have problems with Sheldon in this episode. 

And that's the problem. The risk of writing similar storylines for one character is that not always, the "noticeable steps" are noticeable. And not always, they writers bother to write "noticeable steps". On top of my head, 923, I didn't see any attempts on writing noticeable developments for Sheldon in that episode.

Without noticeable steps, those episodes are just insufferable for me. Because I have to endure watching Sheldon being mean (often on purpose nowadays) for 15 minutes in one episode (which is kind of OOC for him consider usually he is sweet and cute and reasonable just one episode ago), only to find out the first 15 minutes lead nowhere. That's exactly how I feel about the most recent episode. 

And because people, or at least I, consider the show as a continuity, I find it hard to ignore the "bad episodes" just because "we've been getting so much good stuff this season". 

Edited by camelliayao
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5 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

I can agree 1009 counts as a "noticeable step", but I don't think 1010 counts. Because of the poor, lame resolvement of conflict, aka Theodore telling Shelnard that their anger comes from their love, it minimizes the suppose-to-be "Sheldon making progress and learning things" part or "a sweet Shelnard moment" part, and magnifies the "Sheldon being selfish and annoying" part. As a result, Sheldon seems unchanged, which is probably why so many people have problems with Sheldon in this episode. 

And that's the problem. The risk of writing similar storylines for one character is that not always, the "noticeable steps" are noticeable. And not always, they writers bother to write "noticeable steps". On top of my head, 923, I didn't see any attempts on writing noticeable developments for Sheldon in that episode.

Without noticeable steps, those episodes are just insufferable for me. Because I have to endure watching Sheldon being mean (often on purpose nowadays) for 15 minutes in one episode (which is kind of OOC for him consider usually he is sweet and cute and reasonable just one episode ago), only to find out the first 15 minutes lead nowhere. That's exactly how I feel about the most recent episode. 

And because people, or at least I, consider the show as a continuity, I find it hard to ignore the "bad episodes" just because "we've been getting so much good stuff this season". 

Yeah, I get where you're coming from. Not every episode is and can be that kind of "noticeable step" towards improvement. In result it's jarring when you have these learning episodes followed up with old school dickery kind of episodes. It's probably even more jarring to see Sheldon vs. Leonard fighting in the same episode when he's totally sweet to Amy because it makes it blatantly obvious this mean streak is something he should have outgrown by now.

And since nobody really learned much about anything in 10x10 I wouldn't actually be surprised if we get a "Sheldon learns how to share and be nice with Leonard" episode somewhere down the line. ugh

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The thing is I don't see any changes on the direction of the show. It is now hard coded that it the Sheldon show and revolves around him now. It’s good for Shamy but not so much the other characters. I really hope this is the last season and if Johnny and Kaley really care about Lenny and their fans, they will not sign any new contracts unless they are guaranteed more screen time. Show your fans you care, but I guess if you earn a million an episode, you wouldn't rock the boat.

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Posted (edited)

In general, I was never much of a fan of Jerk!Sheldon. And I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm also not a huge fan of Snarky!Amy. I prefer both characters when they are brainy but fundamentally innocent. I like them when they are full-tilt into something that nobody else can understand. Leave the sighing and snarking to the rest of the cast, show. They do it so well.

So I actually have a lot of sympathy with whoever thinks that it is inconsistent or bizarre for Sheldon to deliver jibes that he clearly knows will wound, but for the show to then turn around the next moment with 'Oh, but he knows not what he does!'. That is the show trying to have its cake and eat it too, and I think we all dislike it, no? If you want someone to deliver your meaner humour, put it in the mouths of the canonically self-aware and/or sharp-tongued characters. Either that, or accept that Sheldon is one of those self-aware characters, and stop using 'Oh, but you see he doesn't get it!' as either an excuse for his behaviour, or to have him be the butt of someone else's joke.

But equally? I think by now we have established that Leonard derives some satisfaction from being a victim - of his mother, of Sheldon, of whatever. I appreciate that Beverley did a number on him, but come on. He has a successful career and he is married to the woman of his dreams. When he pouts and behaves like the last dog in the pound, I don't want to comfort him. I want to reach through the screen and smack him. Especially since his best reaction to his actually pretty fucking great life is to collaborate in the humiliation and objectification of his wife by gloating over how he landed her. Ugh.

Sheldon and Leonard have the relationship that, on some level, they both want. @April has pointed out that Leonard has given Amy and Penny excellent advice in the past about how to end conflict. It's not like he doesn't know. So for him to react in a way that he knows will escalate matters? Come on, he knows what he's doing. Somewhere, Beverley started out of bed muttering 'co-dependency' and she doesn't even know why.

Edited by wowbagger

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On 30/11/2016 at 6:23 AM, Chrismo said:

But did Penny speak up before moving his stuff to storage?

 

Just remembered in 114 The Nerdvana Annihilation Penny (not then dating Leonard) berated him and the others for their childish toys. L took this to heart and was going to get rid of his nerd toys until he saw Penny's boyfriend and thought he didn't have a chance with her. But in 520 when she was with L  Penny bought L & S Star Trek toys. I didn't notice if Leonard's toy that Penny bought him was part of the decor in 4a before Penny cleared it. When P & L got together she didn't say anything about his toys. So I suppose L thought she was OK with them now.

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, April said:

 

(By which I mean that the writers should sort him out because obviously. Let him be a nerd again and let him grow a spine or something. Jeez.)

For the bold part, yes , I wanted that too. Some of the most iconic geek moments of the show, have been between S/L( and H/R too )  Leonard and Sheldon actually share passion for many similar things in life like Physics, math,  fanboying over movie premieres,  comic books, sci-fi movies and comic conventions. Sheldon and Leonard(along with Howard/Raj) spent hours having gaming marathons, playing 3D chess,  Red Dead redemption, playing with the time machine, playing settlers of catan and fighting over props from LOTR and other movies. There have been many moments on the show where they actually enjoy each other's company. 

That is why, I would have loved if, in 10.10, Sheldon and Leonard had set up a series of games and puzzles to determine who would get what collectables. And maybe share some fond memories over the said collectables. That would have been so much better, 

Edited by serena_1995
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Posted (edited)

April's posts are pretty clear in that she acknowledges Sheldon is at fault in this particular episode.

Judging by the posts to date those that think Sheldon is this malevolent force and destroyer of lives and those that like or don't mind Sheldon are in agreement that Sheldon was an ass in this episode. Perhaps in time and when cooler heads have prevailed people will come around to the idea that Leonard was also at fault as well through escalation.

Two people can both be at fault in a disagreement especially when it gets heated, it's not that unheard of. 'Two wrongs don't make a right' as the famous proverb goes.

Edited by Tripper
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Posted

The topic has been unlocked after an earlier outburst.

You can disagree with people about their opinions about the show or its characters, but you can't argue they're wrong for having them. Writing other people off as biased for having a different opinion isn't helpful.

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50 minutes ago, Tripper said:

The topic has been unlocked after an earlier outburst.

You can disagree with people about their opinions about the show or its characters, but you can't argue they're wrong for having them. Writing other people off as biased for having a different opinion isn't helpful.

logic.gif

:icon_wink:

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Posted (edited)

23 hours ago, Judith said:

And when he told Sheldon that he should take everything Sheldon asked him if he was sure about it because these were symbols of the fun they had together, so no, Sheldon wasn't just going to take everything

This! When I watched the episode the thing I noticed most was that Sheldon was taking a trip down memory lane when sorting through his and leonard's mutual belongings, and remarked on how the items were born from happy times spent with Leonard. I saw him wanting to keep them more for the sentimental values they held and not so much that he coveted them for the "cool" factor. 

The sword was a freebie win from Penny, and the plant and clock were retained because Leonard didnt even argue to keep them, sarcastic  banter notwithstanding. Yeah Sheldon was being a bit selfish but at least when explaining why he thought he should get to keep the clock, for instance, he tried to rationalize why he should. 

Amy, who is usually on top of Sheldon's DB behavior when she sees it, didnt even notice (even grinned back at him when he suggested the plant would be a good housewarming gift) until Leonard gets upset after the clock! 

Theodore's wrap up of the fight, as clumsy and abrupt as that scene felt, was accurate IMO. The sorting of their property could have been fun for both had they enjoyed the walk down memory lane and were gracious with one another--but it's a sitcom and the conflict brings laughs and thats what the writers were going for :)

 

 

Edited by 2L344
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On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 0:36 PM, April said:

It seems Leonard can't be bothered with negotiations - Penny would throw the geeky stuff out anyway, I guess??? Ugh.

I'm honestly baffled by this whole "we can't do anything about Sheldon except surrender!" attitude. Time and again the guy folds like a lawn chair when one of the ladies on this show is talking/yelling some sense into him. Like seriously, it's ridiculously easy. You just have to be stern with him and, to quote Mary, put some zing on it! Say it like you mean it! Only a few episodes earlier Leonard advises Amy to make a stand and she gets rewarded by Sheldon giving up the bathroom schedule. Now Leonard has a chance to make a stand himself and he just rolls over. Even when he's offered to pick something he'd actually like - anything! - he picks the one thing he knows would anger Sheldon because apparently he wants to start a fight for no fucking reason. I guess life without Sheldon is so boring that this is Leonard's way to make it more exciting!???

Dear Leonard, please sort yourself out! Thanks!

(By which I mean that the writers should sort him out because obviously. Let him be a nerd again and let him grow a spine or something. Jeez.)

I agree with everything you post says. The only thing missing from it (IMO) would be another sentence right underneath the one that says :

" Dear Leonard, please sort yourself out! Thanks!"

It should read: " Dear Sheldon, please stop being such a fucking dick! Thanks!"

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