JohnPhD

I don't think there was ever any doubt that Leonard was the comparatively normal one among the guys, so we couldn't help seeing the TBBT world from L's POV. But we've also seen Sheldon in particular from Penny's POV. And all relationships other than her own are seen more or less from Penny's POV, it seems to me. Because she's not only normal but she has an inner life we can share. (She's also an idiot in some respects but that's not inconsistent).

I don't think you can really compare A & S with P & L in that respect, or KC - Penny with MB - Amy. The love story of Leonard and Penny has been the only extended romantic storyline on the show, and KC has made Penny fully believable as a person in love. I for one want "Penny" to be happy because KC has put so much into her that we can imagine her feelings. A & S on the other hand have never IMO been believable as a couple in love, and MB has not created Amy as a relatable human being with feelings, but just said the lines and done the actions as she's been told, without putting anything into the character of her own. To me Amy seems like a self-propelled, speaking part of the set with no imaginable inner life. I could as well want the couch or the kitchen island to be happy. KC has earned the right to care about her character's relationship. MB hasn't.

I for one don't think the problem is Sheldon, it's Amy. Sheldon is still a great comic character without Amy, but Shamy is boring at best. Whereas KC and JG have terrific onscreen chemistry, Shamy have zero. And it's not JP's fault - he had chemistry wth CB as Beverley, and Sheldon and Penny always had great chemistry - mostly not sexual except when the sich wasn't real, eg the actually pretty hot Sheldon-Penny kiss in Leonard's dream in one of the early eps of S9. This is all self-evident. Which makes it inexplicable that Shamy have been made the romantic lead, to the exclusion of the most exciting couple. How can anyone care about Shamy? As for the future of Lenny, I just want to see more of them. I wouldn't mind if they divorced so long as their getting back together was the main storyline for at least a season, to the exclusion of all this Shamy dross. There are a number of films and plays about a divorced couple coming to realise that they are the only ones for each other. When I've finished this I'll watch The Philadelphia Story again.

There's been some discussion on the Lenny thread about Penny's career. I think this could involve more of the characters than just Lenny. I suspect that many people who succeed in a wide variety of careers are basically acting the part of someone who knows what they're doing. I once suggested elected office as a possiblity for Penny with her winning personality and acting skills. There's been quite a lot in the news recently about how data-mining and other technologies have been used to influence elections. The guys have lost their Infinite Persistence wossname project. So how about a long-term storyline where for some reason the guys need a friend in some political office - say Mayor of Pasadena? . Penny runs and for a new project the guys use their tech skills to influence voters as has apparently been done IRL. Penny wins. Take it from there. This would require a long-term commitment by the programme makers - it wouldn't do to just drop it and have Penny back as a pharma rep without explanation. And to make room for the storyline TBBT would have to cease to be The Shamy Show.

Amy doesn't have the patience of a saint. Her patience, which is solely with Sheldon, is that of a beseiger, who is prepared to sit surrounding the target city for years until the defenders are starved or exhausted into surrender. You may see her human doormat act as being "patient and understanding" but what we see is that she wore Sheldon's defences down. (I wonder why we have the "Leonard wore Penny down" gag so often when it's never mentioned that Amy did actually wear Sheldon down.) It is Penny who has the patience of a saint, both with Sheldon and with Amy. In fact her toleration of Amy's infantile behaviour, selfishness and sly malice has gone past the saintlike to what could be politely called naive or less politely idiotic. I think this is OOC and weakens the character. Bernadette has also shown an OOC degree of patience with Amy.

No. Penny was front and centre in the 200th, as she should be, and Amy was kept in a subsidiary role, as she should be. That won't happen again.

1024 highlighted something that I think could be done better. In most sitcoms you have to have characters being nosey/ interfering about each others' lives to an extent that wouldn't be acceptable IRL, but sometimes as in this ep it goes too far. The other characters could surely have considered that if Sheldon is mature enough to decide that what he feels for Amy is what normal adults mean by "love", and to live with her, then he's also capable of deciding for himself whether he might prefer a fling (and perhaps more) with a woman with a modicum of sex appeal. It's not relevant what would be right, or what would be "cheating" - I'm just saying that Sheldon should have been left to handle the situation by himself (which as it turned out he did), and the rest missed a good opportunity to mind their own damn business. Surely they can allow Sheldon free will? Incidentally, 1024 changed the past. In 208 The Cooper-Nowitzki theorem, Ramona's interest in Sheldon didn't appear to be sexual (and I assume that was what was intended); but now it appears she must have been all along.

In this ep it was really blatant how the makers deliberately don't give us any Lenny. L & P are Sheldon's best friends, they should have discussed the Ramona sich just the 2 of them (preferably in bed). Best bit IMO was Bernadette's reaction to Penny's saying "Sheldon's sexual appetite". That would also be the appropriate reaction to the words "Amy's sexual appetite" - pity we've never seen a couple of the guys react like that to those words. When Ramona kissed Sheldon, I think we can take that as a "yes" to his question. Which, of course, S had no idea was inviting that response, oh no. Remember when Amy pointed out that Indiana Jones's intervention had no effect on the outcome of Raiders of the lost Ark? Well, the other characters' intervention had no effect on the outcome of Ramona's hitting on Sheldon, so they might just as well have treated S like a grown-up and minded their own business.

Yes, and it would have been the best line in the episode. Now that you've suggested it, Joyceraye, it's clear the writers should have thought of it. They're not trying hard enough.

I don't think it's as bad as that on the discussion thread by any means, but now you've got me curious: just what did you say in your comments that got hidden (and how did you say it)?

The heroine doesn't have to be perfect - just the female character whose romantic life is most significant. Surely Bridget Jones is the "heroine" of BJ's Diary? No, L & P haven't been romantic much this season - that's my complaint. There was an episode where Amy had flu, and Sheldon had to look after her. I can't remember which it was or identify it. When Amy was better she didn't tell Sheldon because she was getting her jollies from his helping her in the bath and rubbing her chest with vapor rub. Sheldon found out she was faking, but never knew it was for the sexual thrills - A just told him "it's been so nice having you look after me". Bernadette knew A was exploiting innocent S for sexual gratification but never told anyone else apparently. There's a lot of info about Amy that hasn't been shared.

Not sure that it is only logical. Sheldon was a unique comic creation, and IMO being in love doesn't fit well into his character. I suspect the writers have made his relationship central to his character because they couldn't think of anything better.

I think that was fair enough: Sheldon is a primary character and Amy's just his appendage. What I thought was insulting was how much time it was given cf Lenny's marriage. And there was really no need to show Amy's improbable dating while split up..

I thought it was more a case of "more fool Leonard".

Yes, this seems a nice home for disgruntled Lennies (and are there any other kind these days?). BUT let's not just talk to each other, but whenever possible put our thoughts out there on the Discussion thread, where we can have full and frank exchanges, and occasionally invigorating verbal punch-ups, with those who don't agree with us. Maybe even persuade one or two. At least keep the Lenny flag flying in the main thread.