bfm

I don't think the show is about Lenny, they are one of my favorite thing about it, but the show is more than Lenny. The thing is, it still doesn't make sense if you think of what the show is supposed to "achieve". It is supposed to be a feel-good sitcom. Yes, they threw in some breakups, some sad stuff, but when it ends in character growth or touching moments it achieves something that I think is good for such a show. However, all the no kids does is make us watch a character get its heart broken and conclude the show implying two character will forever have to deal with a big burden. Nothing funny about this and no character growth. Perhaps a touching moment when Leonard decided not to donate and stand up against Wyatt, but that was brief and complicated and I can't see how it was worth it. I don't see how this contributes to the show in any way. I don't see the need to end this kind of show in this way. Now, if you're suggesting they're trying to intentionally piss off Lenny fans, then I feel sorry for them. That makes them incredibly immature. I'm trying to nevertheless have some respect for them so I don't think this is it. But who knows. ETA: And I agree with you about a Lenny spin-off, I don't think there will be one. In fact there seems to be no interest in any spin-off (other than YS) for the time being.

I totally agree with you, itwas (except for them reading forums, I don't think they do, he may be referring to facebook and twitter comments). I totally support the idea that women can have satisfying lives without children, but they shouldn't have dropped this on Penny, and Leonard, just like that, so late into the run, so out of the blue, incompatible IMO with what we've seen before and with the character. They sacrificed the characters and the story, and upset many fans (and it can't be that they didn't realize it would upset fans). Whenever I read these words about treating the characters with care and wanting to give them a satisfying ending I have to laugh. I think this is only true to Sheldon and to a lesser extent Amy. And Kaplan talks about people using the characters to make sense of themselves and others in an optimistic way... I think this doesn't apply here because this wasn't Penny. This is not the character people connected with, this is something that was suddenly dropped on that character. It would've been something completely different if they had her have doubts about children from say season 7. But no. They didn't. This was a Hokus Pocus, it was a sudden unexplained change in the character. So yeah, I feel like this "care" talk is total BS. Anyway, Kaplan is supportive of no kids here, like Holland was in an interview a few months ago. This is why I am not expecting the no kids decision to change. (Also, Kaley had changed her tone about Lenny kids, and the reason seemed to be the effect this is having on fans.)

I generally don't post anymore since I've decided to stop watching this show, at least for the time being, but I wanted to respond to (more follow up) this post because it mentioned the thing that bothers me most about this whole no Lenny kids thing. I am quoting this in Dark Lenny to spare those who don't want to read such a negative post. Yup. Very negative here. You've been warned, please do not read if you don't like these kind of posts. I don't want to upset anyone. Many things bother me about this plot/story/arc/whatever, but the "honor" for most bothering goes to what Jonny mentioned here: Leonard and Penny are NOT on the same page. To me, "The Donation Oscillation" showed it very clearly - the only thimg Penny mentioned as a reason to regret her decision was not wanting to disappoint her husband and her father, which means she doesn't want kids; Leonard was willing to donate sperm for the chance to pass his genes, and then felt a lot of pain at the thought of not raising the cold, which means he wants to raise kids, to be a father. They can make him change his mind, but I think with all that we've seen and with so little left, to me it would be laughable (and not in the way this show is supposed to be). Hokus Pocus Leonard doesn't want kids! Just like they did with Penny, Hokus Pocus she doesn't want kids! As it is, their fate seems somewhat tragic. Leonard has to give up on something he really wants in life in order to be with Penny. He will have her, which is wonderful for him, but he will have to watch his friends grow their children, go through things he wanted to go through but never will. This is a very big sacrifice. It may be romantic, but do we really need to see Leonard sacrificing in romance's sake again? We had seen this all along (also, this makes Penny seem like a trophy again, don't need this). Penny will have to live with guilt. I'm not on any way saying she should have kids out of guilt! Absolutely not! But she will live with guilt. The question that I cannot answer for the life of me is WHY. Why did the writers do that? I cannot think of a reason that would make me think this is worth it. It would be totally different if this were a sappy drama, but it isn't. It is supposed to be a feel-good sitcom. So why have characters get their hearts broken, and have to live the rest of their lives with such burden? Just because they had 2 pregnancy plots? Just because this is different? Juat to keep fans on edge? Just because some group if women who don't want kids suggested it in a letter? They probably did not consider Penny's previous stance and how it fits the character, just noticed she didn't have kids and saw it as an opportunity. IMO, the writers who are supposed to think of their characters, the story they've told and what their show is supposed to be and go by that instead of by external factors that IMO do not justify this by any means. Even if they have Penny change her mind I don't see why it would be worth it, and there will be other problems with that (i.e, the message that women who don't want kids change their minds eventually, like two characters in this show). I also think they missed a chance to give Penny emotional growth, which would fit it being the last season. Thankfully they are giving her career development, but emotionally? She hasn't grown in a while. In fact, "The Donation Oscillation" had her regress. Instead they could have shown the former(?) commitment phobe make the ultimate commitment to someone and have and raise kids with him, something so intimate and important that will connect them for life, even if they got divorce (not saying that they will, just hypothetically; in this scenario Penny never changed her mind into not wanting kids). I think 12×03 was the worst decision the writers have made in the entire show (well, at least for now, they still have time to top it). IMO, it is such a shame to have the show go like this. I never thought I would decide to stop watching, but right now I feel that I've made the right decision. I used to like this show so much, but this season is just too much for me. At least they made saying goodbye much easier.

Chapter 17, Michael POV.

We know Shamy will have children, why do we need to see them getting there?

I deleted what I wrote here not wanting to ruin it to other people. I do not like where the show is going and I think it is time for me to stop watching and maybe leave the forum. This is not for me.

Maybe you're referring to what I saw as her sharing in his pain at the thought of having a biological child and not being their father. I can see what you're saying, it could be seen as "I understand this hurts you and I am here for you" implying this is not going to change. I don't know what the writers have in mind, they may have her change her mind, but I didn't see any indication of that in this episode.

Beautiful post!

Kudos to her

I guess so, I thought it was pre-taped because of the big reaction when Leonard was revealed. Because it's weird as hell...? We also got another reason when she said she knew it would be too hard for Leonard to have a biological child and not being their father. Not wanting to disappoint your husband and father is IMO a terrible reason to have a child. It was also kind of resolved when both supported her.

She may rethink it, but in this episode there wasn't anything to indicate this.

I didn't see Penny changing her mind at all in this episode but it is nice to see Leonard dealing with the pain of accepting this and not just burrying it as if everything is so fine like he did at first. I think it also speaks greatly to their relationship that he is able to hug her in a loving way, kind of taking comfort, even though in a way she is kind of the source of his pain (this is not to say thag she is to blame or that he blames her); and that she is able to share in his pain at the thought of having a biological child and not being said child's father.

Am I the only one who did not understand what was funny about the Sheldon making breakfast sequence? What was the audience laughing at? I really have no clue.

IDK, while they may have her change her mind in the last episode or something, when Penny said her reason to regret telling Leonard they won't have kids was not wanting to disappoint him and her dad, I felt that was the end of the Hofstadter children. That is not a reason to have children, and thankfully those two men she loves the most support her. This could also be used to show that if thwy do have children it is not because of Penny not wating to disappoint Leonard, but in that case they could've made her express the fear of disappointing and have Wyatt and Leonard support her without making it her only reason to regret the no kids decision. I didn't feel it remained in a grey area in this episode. Leonard still sadly accepts not having children, which for him is preferable to not having Penny. Penny did not change her mind and did not show any hint of desire to have children. Remember the promotion plot? There, when the job was about to be taken away from her, she confessed that she wanted it. This did not happen here. Sure, the writers may have not thought of that, but I think the parallel, with the possibility of another woman getting the job, was pretty clear. The hug was touching and showed that they still love each other very much, for Leonard even when Penny is kind of, in a way, the source of his misery. I saw Penny in this hug as being relieved and grateful that Leonard gave up on donating, and also sharing in his pain from the thought of having a biological child and not being said child's father.

Given that Penny said her reason for regretting her plan was disappoonting Leonard and Wyatt, I think they won't have kids. I loved that Leonard was supportive of her, including confronting Wyatt (and Leonard doesn't loke confrontations and this is a man whose affection Leonard enjoys very much), and that Wyatt also eventually accepted her decision and supported her.