[Leonard And Penny Shippers Thread (Possible Spoilers)]

But that was the entire point of the Boyfriend Complexity. It was supposed to be awkward because while Penny still has feelings for him she's actively trying to deceive her father. Penny as a character has always been more comfortable being "in the lead" when it comes to her relationship with Leonard. When you combine Leonard being bold here(having his fun as it were)along with the fraudulent nature of what they were doing, things are going to be uncomfortable for her.

You can also add that she was probably trying to keep her feelings from Leonard and

herself. After all, the episode with her father was the next episode after Penny quit "Truth or Day" to keep from revealing her feelings to Amy and Bernadette.

[How Would You Pepper The Show To Improve Continuity?]

I still think the best one was "The Excelsior Acquisition". An entire storyline (Sheldon going to Traffic Court for running a red light) based on a previous storyline "The Adhesive Duck Deficiency" (he ran the red light taking Penny to the hospital when she slipped in the shower). The beauty of this one was that even though the reference was nice, you didn't have to know the previous storyline to understand the latter episode.

[Season 6 spoilers]

Fair enough.  It may not count as a job, then, but it's still a part and I could see it being a big deal to an aspiring actor.  (Female thespians are called actors rather than actresses now, right?)

Either term, as far as I've seen, can be used.

[Season 6 spoilers]

Does it have to be a paying gig to count as a job?

Yeah, pretty much.

Volunteer work is still called work.

Community theatres have full-time paid positions. It's those people's job. Most of the volunteer work is done by people who have other, paid, full time jobs, if they are working. In the case of Penny doing a show there, she would still have to keep her waitressing job at the Cheesecake Factory.

[Season 6 spoilers]

Ausiello just posted these little spoilers:

Question: Anything on The Big Bang Theory? —Alex

Ausiello: Hope you’re sitting down, because I have some jaw-dropping news for you: Penny is getting a job. A job as an actress. I hear she’s going to get cast in a small community theater production of A Streetcar Named Desire. Hey, it’s something. Meanwhile, Mayim Bialik told us at the SAG Awards that there are “a couple big Sheldon/Amy episodes,” coming up. “I’ve actually been surprised how much the writers and producers want to push this relationship,” she shared. “Amy wants more, and we see what Sheldon thinks."

http://tvline.com/2013/01/29/the-walking-dead-season-3-spoilers-ask-ausiello/

While I love the idea of Penny doing actress work, a community theatre production probably shouldn't count as a job. Community theatres don't pay the actors (I will note that occasionally an Equity (the equivalent of the SAG0-AFTRA for theatre) member will do a community theatre production. But that actor will usually sign over the check to the theatre. Most community theatres run on tight budgets and simply can't afford to cast someone who has to be paid.

[Penny... Rachel Green 2.0?]

Did your daughter have as little acting work as Penny?

Not enough to support her. Six paid shows in eight years, with four of those in the last two years. Of course, she was able to do non-paying shows. There is a noted lack of Community television, in the same vein as Community Theatre.

If she had money to take a class would she have taken a history class or an acting class to help her career?

Actually, she hasn't taken an acting class (outside of her performing arts high school). Penny has paid for and taken acting classes.

Was she satisfied being a waitress until her big breaks started coming in?

She was quite satisfied with being a waitress while working at becoming an actress. She enjoys people, and was quite happy with the pay, compared to the income in this area.

 

Would your daughter feel very insecure dating an intellectual?

Probably not. She is one.

 

Were the writers trying to make Penny look smart when they had her say she could rebuild a tractor or was that a shot at her only having hick skills?

You were insinuating that Penny was somehow incapable of learning anything. The whole tractor thing was to point out that if that was the case, she wouldn't have known enough to be able to rebuild the engine. The fact that she could rebuild the engine indicates she is capable of learning.

Would a tractor mechanic drive around for years in a vehicle with a check engine light on?

Who said she was a mechanic? I said she could rebuild an engine. The two are not synonymous.

We are not watching your daughter who triumphed in her chosen field.

She's just at the point of being able to make a living at being an actor, that's hardly a triumph. She may never be famous, but she should be able to make a living in regional theatres and summerstock with some voicework and commercials (which she just started doing). And, in reality, her love of just doing shows would allow her to do one or two professional shows a year, and work as a waitress the rest of the time.

We are watching a character in a sitcom. It is clear your interpretations are biased though.

As it is clear that your interpretations are biased. What's your point? Isn't the reason that we're going back and forth on this a case of each of us interpreting the show, based on our biases? I believe each of us is trying to give examples of our points of view. We just don't agree on some of the interpretation.

No I don't have quotes from the writers or producers but let me ask you this, why did they do the comic book gag?  Was it supposed to be a heartwarming moment?  Did it bring them all closer together as friends?

Could it be they wanted to get a laugh?

I mean, come on, a comic book doesn't even have that many words in it.  What response was I supposed to have and what was the message they sent me?

I can point out where everyone as done something that could be seen as not being all that intelligent. Do we focus on only those things and ignore the instances where they are being intelligent? What about the point, during the comic book argument, Penny made about being anyone being able to pick up Thor's hammer in space, because of weightlessness? You don't think that point indicates a some sort of grasp of science?

Look, both our biases tend to color how we look at, and interpret the show. If you want to point out specific instances that support your opinion, go for it, it doesn’t bother me. Hell, I like a lot of your analysis (off the top of my head, your points about the babies are great)those I disagree with, I try to give you examples that I think refute your position. What I usually object to are blanket statements and I will point out specifics that refute blanket statements. Doesn’t mean I don’t agree with you in a general sense, if the blanket statement is balanced with the specifics that don’t fit that blanket statement. And, I'll assume you will continue to give examples that support your contentions. That's what's supposed to be fun about these type forums, right?

[Only Idiots Think Leonard And Penny Is Only About Sex.]

@ Tensor

 

My mother was subpar in the kitchen my entire childhood and I know plenty of people who are slobs their entire lives.  You forget this is a comedy and her being a bad cook and bad housekeeper is part of the humor.

Of course it is. Shots at her intelligence, housekeeping and cooking are there for the humor. And some of those lines and situations are throw aways, and not necessarily have anything to do with the actual character development. One example is Penny mentioning that Leonard "really tries" in bed, when she's given other examples of him being rather good. Mixed messages, that we are taking in two different ways. That's why we disagree.

 

You could have, but you didn't.

Which means what? I thought those who know the show would have gotten the "smart and beautiful" without a specific reference. Mea Culpa, I'll be more specific in the future.

 

Combing the next two, Penny has a problem with it.  She even says she is not good at it.  I don't know many people who enjoy doing things they are not good at.

But you evidently know some, from the way your worded it. So it's not impossible for someone to enjoy something they're not good at.

 

I am not demeaning it.

Your wording in the previous post suggested otherwise to me.

I am saying what you suggested.  She doesn't have a successful career or even a hint of one to walk away from.

I already pointed out in another thread, that it can take longer than six years to get a career going. But, here it is again.

[Only Idiots Think Leonard And Penny Is Only About Sex.]

Way to spin it.

Spin it? Then by all means, explain how else your statement:

Women who choose to do it in place of a career have my utmost respect.Women who do it because they are good for nothing otherwise well...

can be interpreted. It appears that you respect those that raise children in place of a career, otherwise, you don't respect those who are raising children.

What will Penny choose over becoming a housewife, A fulfilling and demanding career waitressing?

And if she does, the problem is....what?

 

She is a good for nothing,a grown woman almost in her 30's.

Who started back to school, supports herself, isn't involved in illegal drugs, isn't some sort of criminal. Yeah, the very definition of good for nothing.

I wonder if she will be any good with kids either,can't cook or clean.So would not even be a good home maker.

As I said, my wife couldn't cook and I was a slob, prior to our marriage. Now she's a great cook and I'm a neat freak.

[Only Idiots Think Leonard And Penny Is Only About Sex.]

Women who choose to do it in place of a career have my utmost respect.Women who do it because they are good for nothing otherwise well...

It's good to know you think that only certain kinds of women, who raise children, are worthy of your respect. Me, stay at home moms, single woment, single dads, who are working at raising kids is worthy of respect. I'd rather have a woman who, as you say, can't do anything else, but is dedicated to raising kids, rather than someone who makes the choice not to work, but raises the kids in a indifferent manner.

[Only Idiots Think Leonard And Penny Is Only About Sex.]

Well she is not a good cook or a good housekeeper so the Peggy Bundy reference is apt.

Actually, not necessarily. The first dinner my wife made, for me, I had to fix due to problems based on her inexperience, but now, I can't cook anywhere near as well as she does, she learned, I was a complete slob when I was living alone. After our kids were born, I became a neat freak, because of the kids. I learned.

You don't think she is worthy of being introduced as an aspiring actress suggests that maybe even you don't believe it (even with your facts from experiences) so you reduced her to something more believable.

In this case, I was thinking of Leonard's comment in the Pilot. If I would have known how jumpy that statement was going to make you, I wouldn't have edited the "smart and beautiful" out, to make it obvious I was referring to Leonard's statement. And, it doesn't mean that is the only thing I could write. I can provide you with a whole list of ways Penny could be introduced, if you wish.

And yes, in this case it is a reduction in status because it is not really a choice if you do not have better options.

Sure she has a choice, she could have continued working after the kids are born. You are again making it sound as someone who stays at home with their kids as somehow beneath someone else who is working.

It is like she didn't choose to be a waitress she just had no other options.

As I mentioned before, a waitress(or waiter) is a very good job to have if you're an aspiring actor, due to the flexibility of hours being very convenient for auditions. Doesn't mean she had no other options. And, what exactly is your problem with a waitress or waiter?

 

If you want a fact from experience my own mother stayed at home and it was a good thing because her abilities in the workforce were never much more than retail and babysitting.

My mother was also a stay at home mother (as is my wife). My mother did ironing for friends to make some extra money, but she was a secretary prior to having children. My wife was doing administrative work for a large company when we had our first child. She was quite happy to be home with our kids (they're both grown). I just didn't see why it was necessary to be so demeaning to the idea of a mother staying at home, raising the kids.

[Only Idiots Think Leonard And Penny Is Only About Sex.]

The next Peg Bundy... lol.

 

It is kind of telling you put her in a domestic capacity.

So a stay at home mother deserves ridicule and mocking? If she chooses it, what is the problem? I could give you plenty of examples of good mothers, who chose to stay at home at certain points while raising children, but you've made it clear that you don't like facts from experience.

[Only Idiots Think Leonard And Penny Is Only About Sex.]

Well I think if Leonard given a chance would introduce Penny with something along these lines...

 

Leonard : And this is Penny my wife and my life

Or, "This is my wife, Penny, she stays home and is raising our children."

[Season 6 spoilers]

I made that mistake with The Santa Simulation by saying I didn't like it, so I guess if I'm writing up reports (which I like doing) then I just have to nix posting my thoughts on it.

Nooooooooooo, I love when you and Monique post your thoughts. There are moods, feelings, and happenings on the set that are, to my mind, priceless for those of us who can't attend.

[Penny... Rachel Green 2.0?]

So why did she cheat on her history paper again?

Because she wanted to make sure Leonard didn't bother her about it anymore? She wasn't planning on cheating until Leonard rewrote it.

 

The show has made it pretty clear she is unhappy with her life and how it has turned out so far.  Is that true of you or your daughter?

 

Which has what to do with your comment, about your handyman, "If he were an aspiring actor after 6+ years of trying while working in a restaurant I would think he was a moron."?   I was just pointing out that my daughter, for the first six years of her career,  didn't find much work as an actor, was working in a restaurant and it didn't seem moronic to me.   The example of myself was in response to your asking why, if she was a good mechanic, didn't she pursue being a mechanic.   I gave you an example as to why I didn't pursue a longer career in programming, because I didn't like it, even though I was good at it. She wanted to try and be an actress.

The show has taken numerous shots at her intelligence.  I take it at face value while you downplay it with all kinds of past episodes and personal experiences.

 

Yep, it has taken some shots. It's also given examples of her intelligence. I take those at face value, while you downplay those instance. As far as the personal experiences, I answered your personal experience with your handyman with my own personal experience?

 

I am not going to work that hard for a TV show.

Then don't.

If the show kills her in the next episode I am not going to believe she is still alive because I saw her alive in previous episodes.

But that doesn’t change the fact that she was alive in those previous episodes. If she has the intelligence and ability to rebuild an engine, in previous episodes, that doesn't go away just because they take a shot of a different aspect of her intelligence, in a latter episode.

 

I will take it at face value.

Then why are you not taking examples of her intelligence at face value?

If the show wants us to see her differently it would not leave it up for interpretation.  It would make a clear statement.

I think it does make a clear statement. It's just my interpretation of the statement is the opposite of your interpretation. YMMV

It doesn't do that because it wants to have that vehicle for us to laugh at her when they want us to.

Do you have some quote from the writers or producers to this effect, or is this your interpretation? If the latter, I disagree. YMMV

It also wants to leave it a little vague so we don't consider her a total loser but the problem is they do so little to redeem her it is hard not to see it that way anyway.

Do you have some quote from the writers or producers to this effect, or is this your interpretation? If it's the latter, I find it hard to see it that way. If she was homeless, not working, and on drugs, or prostituting herself, you would probably get me to agree with her being a total loser. Someone who is working, supports herself, and is going back to school can hardly be called a total loser.

[Sag Awards 2013 Coverage]

Did anyone note Jesse Ferguson's comment when he said it was an honor to be nominated with the casts of ...

He went through the other shows and he got to TBBT he said " The Big Bang ratings, er..Theory

[Season 6 spoilers]

Part of the "enthusiasm gap" may be due to them "fixing" Penny or Leonard's problems. The writers have to show the problem they are going to fix. This causes conflict, which causes them to be emotionally distant from each other, until the problem is solved. It's tough to show enthusiam for each other if they're emotionally distant for most of the episode. And most of the L/P Interaction, this year, is when they are fixing one of Penny's or Leonard's problems.

[Penny... Rachel Green 2.0?]

You mean 3 words that share lacking knowledge as a definition?

They don't share "lacking knowledge" as a definition. For instance, the following are the actual meanings, using "facts" as the item being known, but it could be any other kind of knowledge. Stupid means unable to learn facts; dumb means able to learn, but unable to make connections between different facts, and ignorant is your "lacking knowledge", or, staying with the definitions here, doesn't know the facts. That some people use them as synonyms, doesn't mean their actual definitions aren't different. Using them as meaning the same is just being ignorant of the actual definitions. Which was my point.

You would like to argue that her being uneducated was a result of not taking school seriously but what about now?

Well, what about it? Are you suggesting that she doesn't want to do better in her college class now, compared to her high school classes, then?

Smart people put themselves in a position to succeed even if they lack mainstream knowledge.  If she is a good mechanic why didn't she pursue that?

I'm a pretty good carpenter (I sell the furniture I make). Doesn't mean I want or am able to do it for a living, as I do it for the enjoyment of woodworking(and do about a piece a month). I'm also a really damn good programmer and database manipulator. I did it just long enough to make some pretty good money then dropped it, as I didn't enjoy the part that related to the companies requirements while programming for their business. Being good at something doesn't mean a damn thing, if you don't enjoy it. I'm doing some side work for an astrophysical group that involves programming numerical algorithms for data analysis. I don't get paid, I do it because the subject fascinates me, I get to see rather recent observations, and what I do frees up the others to do other work. Why would anyone pursue something they don't enjoy, unless required by some sort of life situation? In Penny's case, she's doing restaurant work to pay the bills while she tries to become an actor. As I'm quite happy now, even through I could making a lot more if I was to go back to actually working for some company, doing their programming.

My handyman never finished high school but he makes a very good living doing what he does.  I consider him smart even though his level of "school" knowledge is lacking.  I am ignorant in ways he is not.  I am smart in ways he is not.  I give him money and the world works.  He gives other people money to help him in ways he is ignorant, and the world works.  If he were an aspiring actor after 6+ years of trying while working in a restaraunt I would think he was a moron.

I'll be sure to mention that to my daughter. She's been working in a restaurant for eight years, while going after acting jobs. It's only been the last year and a half that she's started getting acting or voice work regularly. Restaurants are great places to work, if your an aspiring actor. Hell, her boss' brother owns an apartment in Manhattan that sits empty most of the time. Her boss talked to his brother and as a result, she got the place (on a very cheap rent, about half the rent control price) to use when she is in NY for voice work and auditions. During the season here (about Sep to May), she makes between 800-900 a week for 30 hours, which is almost twice the median income(and over twice the hourly rate) for this area. She gets all that from working for a restaurant. Doesn't sound that moronic to me, but then you may have different experiences.

You want to paint her as uneducated because she did not apply herself but the show is not confirming that premise.

And you want to paint her as having some perceived inability to learn, but the show doesn't confirm that premise either. We disagree, "shrugs". YMMV.

Until they do, your argument does not hold water.

Actually, it does confirm it. Anyone who knows enough to rebuild an engine or gain the knowledge she's picked up of the guy's interests (science and their hobbies) does not have an inability to learn, as you seem to imply.

[The Entire Premise Is Changing, Not Sure How To Feel.]

Yes, that's how I see it too. It's interesting that you bring up his grandmother. I've been thinking about her..

Snip.....

. The truth is that Sheldon Cooper is a deeply emotional person - has always been - and that seeps through the cracks on occasion and for specific people. 

there was also how upset he got in The Precious Fragmentation when Raj and Howard started talking about how his grandmother had to have had sex.

[Penny... Rachel Green 2.0?]

With this logic no one is dumb.

More properly, everyone is ignorant, in some way.  

 

But to the average person someone not knowing middle school stuff is stupid and dumb.

Can you define an average person and what they are supposed to know for us? As far as middle school stuff, you mean like knowing the differences between the definitions of stupid, dumb, and ignorant?

[Penny... Rachel Green 2.0?]

But you have to admit there has never been an explanation for why she was/is such a bad student.  In the last new epsiode they even took shots at her reading capabilities of a comic book.  What am I supposed to take away from the fact she doesn't know what average sixth graders know about history and the solar system?

 

They put it out there and people like yourself get mad when we call her kinda dumb.  How is that fair?

 

Bad student, almost certainly.  Ignorant of various things, yes.  Dumb, no.   The answer to her being a bad student is probably in the tag of The Staircase Implementation (where she celebrates the pregnancy test showing negative) or in her father's statement about the potpourri in her dresser.  It indicates that she treated school as a place to socialize, rather than to learn.  

 

There is a huge difference between not knowing (or being ignorant) and not being able to learn.   There's even a huge difference between being able to learn, and not learning for various reasons and not being able to learn.    I'd be interested in knowing why you think a problem with reading equates to dumb?   Studies have shown that those that do a lot of reading, when young, become better at it, and as a result, read more and get better at reading.   These people tend to go farther and do better in school.    I can point you to any number of studies that show that there is no correlation between reading skill and intelligence.    Low skill readers can be taught to become skillful at reading, with remedial training.   You're trying to compare the reading skills of two people who have PhDs (correlating to having good reading skills) and one (Penny) that, very probably was not a good reader to start with, shied away from reading because she wasn't very good, becoming worse at it.    

 

 As for what the average sixth grader knows, my daughter, who does substitute teaching is astounded at what high school students don't know.  But that does not mean they are  incapable of learning.   I'd say, conservatively,  more than 90% of people can't rebuild a tractor engine.  Are all of them dumb compared to Penny?   Can you point out where you think my answer to Kutra is somehow mad?  All I was doing was presenting examples that refute the contentions.   And, how is it fair that there is a group that calls her dumb, because she lacks knowledge of certain things, while ignoring examples where she has knowledge that others don't?    

[Only Idiots Think Leonard And Penny Is Only About Sex.]

I think that Leonard and Penny's relationship would be the same if they weren't dating except for the fact that they would be having sex. Leonard and Penny will always have feelings for each other, both emotional and sexual.

 

Can't argue with that as it's been the situation, since the second season, during those periods when they weren't dating. However, on the negative side, you said always.....

[Only Idiots Think Leonard And Penny Is Only About Sex.]

Leonard: well how was it for you?

Penny: it was okay...

Leonard: okay?

Penny: hey its a perfectly good word if u put it in front of... dokay?

Leonard: ...

Penny: hey its okay sometimes it just takes couples time to work things out, u know find each others rhythms

Leonard: so this has happened to u before?

Penny: no

Pretty much saying straight up that penny has had better...

Don't forget, just prior, Leonard says it was "fine", implying he also had better. I would put it down to first time awkwardness, after all, they didn't seem to have a problem after that first time.

[Penny... Rachel Green 2.0?]

Not knowing what the cold war is is dumb. Not knowing that the sun does not go up in space is dumb. This is basic school stuff.

Yes it is basic school stuff, and you go to school to get knowledge. That does not mean that everyone takes the same knowledge from school.

It is not similar to not knowing to hook worms or being scared fo spiders.

Not knowing how to hook worms IS the same thing, it's something you have to learn, same as you have to learn about the Cold War or what the motion of the sun means. Unless you're saying we all know how to hook worms instinctively.

When did Penny rebuilt an internal combustion engine?

When she was ~12. See episode 1 X 02, The Big Bran Hypothesis. The ending tag, when all four of the guys are trying to "improve" her new media center. Penny: "Guys, seriously, I grew up on a farm, okay, I rebuilt a tractor engine when I was like twelve, I think I can put together a cheap Swedish media centre."

[Poor Mayim, Now Shes Had A Fire At Her House :(]

Remember, Mayim's blog is on a website that deals with Jewish life. Some of what Mayim does is explain how what happens in her life relates to and her journey with, her faith. To do that, and be used as a meaningful example, it's sometime necessary to post personal(some rather intense) examples of happenings in her life. It appears that she is more interested in exposing how her faith aids her in getting the through those experiences, rather than worrying about the possible negatives in airing the experiences.

[Will Alex Be Back?]

She's back.

You may want to alert this as a spoiler.