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Posts posted by Chiara

  1. I like movies about gladiators.

    (maybe I'm playing this game wrong) :)

    Nope you are playing it just right ;)



    On a sligtly more topical note, I have to state my admiration for the crafty little imps who come up with the episode summaries (those that are in press releases). "Share intimate details" ? If I did not know what Penny and Sheldon share, I would be mystified by the phrasing and expect some bombshell to be dropped, not some topless scene in a slasher film and a dislike of the new Youtube rating system. 


    That makes me question Sheldon being "crushed" by Leonard's return... Is he really crushed or merely annoyed ? And it is by Leonard's return per se or something that comes with it (like a scientific discovery not in accordance with one of Sheldon's theories) ? I'll wait and see. 



    In the mean time, I'll ask some friends to help me calm down and get a hold of myself

    • Like 1
  2. As far as being a decent guy, people in isolated situations tend to drink more and get a chance to do stupid things more often.

    Indeed, even if the scene plays out in the worst possible way, we should not panic.

    TPTB like their characters tragically flawed (a reason for their success one may think) but always give them a chance to redeem themselves. The writers like their creatures and want them happy, especially Leonard. So while this scene may look bad even after editing, there will be plenty of time for him to come back from his mistake. 


    Remember last year when Penny decided she was bored with Leonard, talked about it with the girls and was about to break up with him ? While her doubts about the relationship were understandable considering the canon of her past romantic experiences, this little event did nothing to endear her to the audience (it did not affect Leonard who was blissfully unaware of the whole thing). However, a few episodes later, she came back from the brink of whatever catastrophe she had attempted to set in motion when she realised she loved Leonard  with the softly spoken "Sometimes I forget how smart you are." (The Holographic Excitation). 

    This may be Leonard's time to spend some time on the audience's "naughty" list. Just for the sake of him redeeming himself in our eyes a bit later. 


    Let us all keep calm. Penny and Leonard will end up together. It was decided in the very first episode of the very first season. It may take some more blood, sweat and tears (but noting compared to the fourth season bodily fluids spectacular, I believe) but we will get there. Let's take a deep breath !

    • Like 8
  3. I get what you and others are saying about how's it not that big a deal. As @Chiara pointed out he could have shown pictures of her. Part of the problem is this isn't five years ago. I can see showing the topless video then. But I can't imagine showing it now when he wants her as his future wife. I can't imagine showing a topless video of my future wife. 

    It is definitely a very unfortunate move from Leonard and I, for one, would certainly welcome the writers' decision no longer to put Penny's physique at the forefront of Leonard's preoccupations. They have, on numerous occasions, made a point of telling us, proving us even, that Leonard is not just into Penny just for her looks. So the "OMG my GF is so beautiful" is ready for retirement. 


    However, this scene is still a mystery. Let's be honest : it could go either way. Leonard could come out of it looking really sleazy like he could end up seeming "just" remarkably misguided. And everything in between is equally possible.


    The effect will be a product of several factors : 

    - Leonard's general sobriety status : while I do to a certain agree with Bangermain's assessment that drunkenness is not a "get out of jail free" card, alcohol does undeniably alter one's judgment and can make people act foolishly (e.g. Penny and Raj);

    - the gender of Leonard's crewmates : while it technically does not change a thing, I have to admit I would feel much more comfortable with Leonard showing off Penny to a predominantly female group (just like I did not feel creeped out by Amy's "come on bestie, show us some skin" while I would have been nauseated had the same line been spoken by one of the guys);

    - the exact nature of the scene : it is a shower scene, that we know. But how long is it supposed to be ? Is it just a little thing in passing or some sort of long exposé ? Is it a take on Psycho's most famous moment (which would give the thing a more artsy, less exploitative feel) ? So far no idea;

    - the context in which the scene is shown : I have to say I would feel better if in some way the writers let us know that Leonard is showing the whole film to his crewmates and not just the "juicy bits". It will make the whole thing less creepy;

    - Leonard's delivery of the line "That's my girlfriend" : this actually gives me rather good hope. Mr. Galecki and Ms. Cuoco share a rather uncanny ability to soften some of the harshest lines the writers give them. Therefore, Mr. Galecki could make Leonard sound like an excited child pointing at the screen, almost jumping up and down, all proud and delighted, which would defuse most of the scene's sleaze potential in my eyes; 

    - the overall quality of the film : if the film is a very bad one, then there is little in it for Leonard (and his mates) but the topless scene. if conversely, it is a somewhat decent horror flick, then it can be viewed by anyone for reasons other than Penny's breasts. 


    Until all these factors are accounted for, I cannot have any precise idea. 

    As of now, I am not thrilled with the concept of this scene. It seems like just another version of a joke the writers already made in The Bakersfield Expedition, with the difference that they did it better and funnier back then (the newspaper gave the photograph a "hostage situation" quality which made me laugh). This latest incarnation does not appear to contribute to anything at this point. 

    Nevertheless, it may very well all turn out mostly fine. Leonard might end up looking inadvertently crass and completely clueless, something I am willing to forgive him for. People make mistakes and Leonard is neither different nor better in this regard. He is allowed to be very stupid from time to time. That may be one of these instances.


    Let's cut him a tiny bit of slack : he has not been apart from Sheldon for the best part of 10-ish years and all of a sudden, he is on his own. He does not have to drive anybody to the dentist or take anyone to buy shoes that don't hurt or account for every single minute he spends in the lavatories. Maybe the rarefied air of freedom is making him dizzy and confused.

    • Like 4
  4. I find it a little strange that some are attacking Leonard for showing someone a video of Penny topless.   Did she unknowingly appear in the video?   Did Leonard make a video of her topless and had promisded to never show it to anyone?  No.  Penny knowingly bared her breasts for a movie and Leonard found it and showed it to someonelse.  SO WHAT?  They're breasts.  If you want to find someone to criticize for it, criticize Penny. 

    I am not entirely sure why anyone should criticise Penny. Many actors and actresses have appeared nude (or partly nude) in films. I fail to see what is worthy of criticism about it. 


    The problem some of us have with Leonard showing this particular film to his crewmates is that it can be seen as exploitative or objectifying. There is nothing wrong with Leonard being proud of and happy with Penny. Nor is there anything wrong with him wanting people to envy him his felicity (it may be a bit petty, but it is overall OK). 

    There are many ways in which he could express such pride and joy : he could show photographs of them together being all smile-y and love-y; he could talk about her play (which he loved); he could tell others of the times when she helped him and his friends out; he could describe the great things they have done together over the years; etc. The fact that he chooses to broadcast a film in which she appears topless is, at best, a tad inappropriate. 

    As many posters mentioned, it makes it look like Leonard only cares for Penny's physique as that is what he elects to brag about. Furthermore, as Bangermain reminded us, considering we know Leonard happens to think of her as the future mother of his children, it is rather unfortunate. 


    However Leonard has a history of getting overly excited about his girlfriend's physique and wanting to make sure everyone knows he is in a relationship with a "cheesecake-scented goddess". So it is not entirely out of character. It is just an extreme case of Leonard going overboard without even realising it. 

    Also, and that to me is the crux of the matter, Leonard does not know that Penny is ashamed of that movie. Since Penny has never even mentioned the film in his presence, he has no reason to assume she is embarassed by it. He may very well believe that she has not refered to it because... It is a bad film ? She cannot remember it ? She does not care ? So he is not intentionally disseminating images of Penny he knows for a fact she finds distasteful. 


    We all know by now that extreme contentment makes Leonard go slightly insane in the membrane. The writers have made it clear on several occasions that he is not used to being happy (considering who his mother is, it is hardly surprising). He is not equipped to deal with it in a normal way. He blurts out ILY, he proposes, he plays the cello, he removes his clothes, he sweats gallons of water, he overtalks... The poor man has no idea how to keep it together when things go his way. When Penny proposes, he may very well wet himself. 

    • Like 3
  5. I do agree that Leonard is the nucleus surrounded by the rest of the characters, but each of them also bring something to the table that without them would make the show less than what it is..

    Of course, they all are indispensable in their own right and bring their own brand of madness to the stories. 

    Perhaps, instead of nucleus, we could compare Leonard to a catalyst : he gets the ball rolling, like any good protagonist should. As Tensor summed up, without him no Raj and Howard; without Raj and Howard, no Amy; without Leonard no Penny; without Penny no Bernadette. 


    It does not mean the other characters do no exist outside of his realm. Or do not have valuable interactions without his input. They do and... They do. 

    It is somewhat similar to the Arthurian legend : Arthur, in many stories, takes a backseat. In some others, he is not even present. Yet, without him, there would be no Round Table and no knight around it. And without him, there would be none of these stories in which he is not even mentioned because, without him, there would be no Holy Grail to look for. 

    The Geek Squad's Grail, so to speak, is a healthy balance between geekery and adult life. Leonard was the first to set his eyes on that particular prize when he decided Penny was the woman of his life. And just like that, he got the ball rolling for everybody else. 

    • Like 7
  6. Hi, I'm new to the forum. Just caught up with the show and can't wait for season 7. 


    I actually loved the taping report and was happy with everything that was said, so I was kinda surprised that most people are unhappy with it. Going on season 7, the thing that I wanted the most was seeing Penny miss Leonard. Even though by the end of season 6 things were more balanced out between Leonard and Penny, I still feel the ball is in her court and that she has to prove how committed to this relationship she really is. So, I love that she's missing Leonard terribly. That shows how much she truly loves him and how much she needs him.

     Well, hello there and a very warm welcome. 


    I understand the "lack of balance" argument when it comes to Penny and Leonard for he has always been more "out there" than her emotionally. He is a demonstrative man and wears his heart on his sleeve. 

    However, it may be a bit unfair to say that Penny is finally shown to miss Leonard. She confessed (to her door, yes, but confessed still) that she was going to miss him terribly before he left for the North Pole and threw herself at him when he came back as a result of it. So we have known for a long time that she values his presence in her life and feels much better when he is around than when he isn't. It is just that he has not given her many opportunities to miss him (he lives across the hall after all). 

    Furthermore, in my opinion, her love for him has always been pretty clearly stated. As Tensor pointed out many times, even when she broke up with him, she did so because she felt it was better for him (Wheaton put the fear of Cthulu into her by mentioning that girl who led him on for years and she did not want to be so cruel to Leonard). She even agreed not to socialise with him anymore to facilitate his relationship with Priya, thereby proving she was willing, when push came to shove, to sacrifice her own happiness for the sake of his. 


    Admittedly, her displays of affection are always less spectacular than Leonard's. But they are there for everyone to see nonetheless. So the relationship is actually much more balanced that it may seem. 


    How exactly?

    Penny was a much nicer person in the first couple of seasons, then she is now. This idea that she has become more mature, is an total illusion. Penny has become an alcoholic, who used to be a bully and has no passion for anything in life but having a boyfriend. This is not the Penny I tuned in for.

    The Penny from the first couple of seasons was a glorified child, to be fair. She was 21 and had not seen or experienced much : she had dated some idiots, had cried over the loss of them for about five minutes each time (and moved on almost immediately), she stil believed her big break was six months of waiting tables away, etc.

    Now, Penny is much more experienced. She knows what it is like to have her heart broken and to break a love one's heart (and have no one to blame but herself), she knows what it is like to feel lonely, she knows what it is like to feel like a failure (thanks for that, Priya), she knows her acting career may never be as big as she first imagined... She is 27 and she is a grown-up. Slightly more bitter, slightly more disillusioned but also that much more interesting, at least to me. 

    I was perfectly OK with her naivity and child-like cutsiness for the first couple of years because it was in keeping with her age. If she were still like that now, I would want to grab her by the shoulders and tell her to grow up. 


    As for the drinking, many other posters explained it. Penny, from the very first season on, was shown to be prone to drink when either very sad or very bored. That's her MO. After all, she got drunk the first time Leonard's mother showed up because Dr Beverly had depressed her.


    She just had more reasons to be depressed in season 4 than at any other times in her life, so she drank more. Ever since she reconciled herself with her actions and her life (beginning-ish of season 5, pretty much), she has not drunk out of reason. 


    I agree, there are loads of glass in hand scenes as well. They have cheapened Penny, not matured her. Now we have yet another story about her colourful past thrown in. Penny may have been dating a lot of guys, before she fell in love with Leonard but she knew that she was getting her heart broken. She was less shallow and much more sensitive. She certainly wasn't a natural bully.

    To be honest, nobody is a natural bully. People become bullies because the circumstances allow them to. Case in point : the boys and Zac. One would think that guys who suffered from bullying for most of their childhoods and teenage years would know better but, the moment they felt superior, both in number and in knowledge, to somebody else, they piled on and did their best to humiliate him. Are they natural bullies ? Of course not. But they had a technical advantage and went overboard with it. 

    I would be tempted to believe that same thing happened to Penny (and pretty much all people who have behaved like that in their life). Opportunity + peer pressure + "weak" target = bad behaviour. It is not pretty but it does not change her nature. She is and was always a nice person, with a blind spot when it comes to some of her less palatable traits. Like everyone. 

    • Like 3
  7. Hi Terrible and welcome to the forum.


    It's not about the movie, it's not so much that Penny constantly tell Sheldon things she won't tell Leonard.  For me it feels like the writers are telling us the viewers that Penny really doesn't trust or give Leonard the benefit of the doubt of how he would react upon hearing things she did before they met. I mean it was Wyatt that told Leonard about most of her losers boyfriends, her during weed, her thinking she was pregnant and so on.  Penny will share stupid things with Leonard that aren't important about her but never anything that helped shape who she is.

    In all fairness, what Wyatt "revealed" to Leonard hardly qualifies as surprising. 

    Penny smoke pot in high school ? Like at least a quarter of all Americans.

    Penny got a pregnancy scare ? Again, hardly an oddity in a sexually active young woman's life. Furthermore, she got said scare when in high school. Pardon my cynicism but teens are not always particularly bright when it comes to their own biology. I still remember with great fondness a high school friend who thought she might be pregnant as a result of... Well, let's just say there was no way she could have got pregnant from what she had done. Still, and in spite of repeated explanations as to how and why there was no need for it, she took a test !

    Penny appeared topless in a movie ? I highly doubt it is going to make anybody reach for their smelling salts. Again, I understand that she is not proud of it and would prefer people she loves not to know but it is hardly the shocker of the century. If anything, her being so ashamed of this movie seems somewhat similar to her rather explosive reaction to Sheldon's "chew toy" discovery. Is there anything wrong or inherently shameful about owning a vibrator ? Nope. Yet, Penny got all flustered. That's just who she is : part Mae West, part Doris Day. 


    I suspect those events did not shape Penny anymore than "saving the day" by having somebody else perform the Heimlich manoeuvre on a choking patron did. 


    I have tried to think of one thing of importance that Penny has shared with Leonard about her or things she done in her life before they met and I realize I can't think of one thing (if someone can please feel free to post it).  I know some will bring up the psychic thing, I don't see that as being something that big.

    While I believe I understand what you are saying, I am not sure I see what "big" things you might have in mind. 

    Penny is 27-ish, unmarried, childless, she comes from a rather normal background (if we exclude the "freelance chemist" brother) and has a pretty mundane everyday job. I am not sure she has had the time and/or opportunity to have "big" things happen to her. 

    As a matter of fact, I am not sure that many people have. 


    So far, she has had a fairly normal existence. So have the other characters (with the possibly exception of Howard who experienced the departure of his father and a trip into space). Theirs are lives made of little details and this is what matters ultimately. 

    • Like 1

    I would also strongly disagree that the guys were bullying Zack in 3x23. I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. They did not stood around and humiliate him while he was helpless and powerless, they just made a few puns to each other about how dumb his questions were. 

    You are right. I got mixed up with my references. I meant the apartment scene in The Justice League Recomposition. Then they openly bullied Zac and did not even realise it until somebody pointed it out to them. Very similar to Penny who can, in all honesty, believe there was no bully in her high school and then describe her own former bully-ish behaviour without spotting the problem. 


    As for Penny's former social circle, I do not know. Her past boyfriends were all pretty daft but her friends... Have we ever really met them ? I only recall the Halloween party in season 1 and the football watching group in season 3. In the first case, the mistakes made by Penny's guests about the guys' costumes were pretty understandable (not that many people know what The Doppler Effect is or what it would look like in costume form and, in all fairness, Howard did look like Peter Pan) and the football-loving jocks seemed pretty nice, I think. 

    Maybe her former friends were not all that bad after all.

    • Like 1
  9. You know speaking of Sheldon and how he treats Leonard, one of the things that always rubbed me the wrong way was the analogy that somehow Sheldon is like Spock.  Sheldon is nothing like Spock, Spock was a loyal friend to KirK, he would die for him, he would cover for him and never insult him like Sheldon does to Leonard.  Spock also believed the 'The needs of the many come before the needs of the few or the one',  Sheldon believes in 'The needs of the one (him) comes before the needs of the many'.  Sheldon is no Spock and it is an insult to what the character Spock is to say he is. Leonard is in a lot of ways like Kirk, he is the alpha male of the group, gets the best girls, cares about his troops and tries to protect them and is a leader.

    I think the show made that point once. 

    When Sheldon performed his Star Trek-themed autobiographical play with Penny, he ended up breaking down because, ultimately, he did not want to go with Spock and leave his mommy behind. 


    Spock is 100% adult : all about responsibility and duty. Sheldon is a little boy. Because of his remarkable intelligence and superb vocabulary, it might be easy to forget that but this is what he is. With all the good and all the bad, the beautiful innocence and the utter selfishness, the odd bouts of utter generosity and the dictatorial tendencies.

    Even his distaste for physical contact and displays of affection is child-like : he reacts like a four-year-old who shouts "eww" when he sees grown-ups embracing each other or wipes his cheek after his mom kissed him. 

    He is growing up, but it is taking quite a while. However, he shall never be Spock. And while he may be unaware of the fact, the writers are not fooled, I think ;)

    • Like 1
  10. First of all, I would very much like to apologise if I have come up as disparaging of any Shenny 'shipper. While I do not believe this 'ship is in the cards, s to speak, I have no problem with people fancying a bit of Sheldon/Penny love if they so wish. If some of my comments were disrespectful, I am really sorry. 


    If anything, I always found it interesting how Penny ended up surrounding herself with the type of people she used to bully as a youngster. Lio, I believe, has often suggested it would be awesome to have an episode where Penny goes back out with her old girlfriends and realizes how terrible that lifestyle was and how stupid these people were (ala "Zach was a perfectly pleasant guy and then you ruined him!") and how much she appreciates her friends now. I also agree that would be incredibly funny and sweet at the same time.

    While I am all for Penny realising that she now has much higher standards when it comes to men and can no longer fall for the "nice abs - shame about the brains" type, I would actually resent a bit her being "colonised", for lack of a better word, by the boys' culture. 


    Penny discovering that she has an interest in the beauty of the material world and the laws by which it abides ? Hell to to the yes. 

    Penny using geek lingua to address the guys ? Absolutely (especially considering that it always gets Lenard hot under the collar. Though she should be careful because everytime she quotes Star Wars, he tends to go a tad overboard and propose or say ILY so... Great powers, great responsibilities and all that jazz).

    Penny revisiting her past actions and making amends ? Definitely. 

    Penny defending geekiness against a frontal attack ? Hear, hear. 

    Penny rejecting en masse the non-geeky lifestyle as too "stupid" ? I'd rather not, to be honest. 


    Geekiness is no better or worse than anything else. It is not, in and by itself, smarter or more useful than any other hobby/cultural preference. The way I understand it, at their core geeks are "merely" über fans of comic books, superheroes, heroic fantasy, science fiction, etc. Like jocks are über fans of sports, Twihards are über fans of sparkly vampires or Beliebers are über fans of a Canadian singer who shall not be named. Different tastes for different people, all of them fine in their own right. It so happens that the geeks TBBT focuses on are also geniuses. Brilliant ! But that does not make geekiness genius on its own. 


    To have Penny (or any other character in fact) go overboard with a defense of geekiness over any other subculture would amount to bullying. As the guys demonstrated neatly in The Lunar Excitation, bullies are not always those with the bigger muscles or the conventional good looks. They, themselves, turned into bullies the moment they were more numerous and decided that, because Zac did not know as much as them on a specific topic, he was therefore worthy of contempt. 

    TBBT, deep down, is about how the geek world needs a little bit of adulthood to be viable while a healthy zest of geekery makes the adult world that much more fun. Penny embodies the adult world and as such has embraced some geeky habits to become a more interesting character. But too much of that would imply the superiority of geekiness over any other passion. It might be unwise. 

    • Like 6
  11. True, that too. However, I also think when Sheldon became the most popular character (which happened fairly quickly), people started perceiving him as the lead over Leonard, in a way. One of the things that make me respect the writers, actually, is that they didn't fall into the trap of taking the most popular male and most popular female and hooking them up. It must be very very tempting to do, but they've stuck to their guns for 7 years, and I respect them a great deal for that.

    I wonder if such a temptation ever existed in the writers' minds. 


    From a purely narrative standpoint, Leonard is the protagonist and Sheldon the auxiliary. Please do not believe I am being dismissive of Sheldon's importance or relevance by calling him that, it is merely a technical term. The protagonist is, etymologically, the first one to struggle or suffer and, structurally, the one who introduces the plot or main theme. An auxiliary is another character who goes along with the "quest". 

    TBBT's running theme, so to speak, is "geeks meet adult world". While she may not act like it at times, Penny incarnates said "adult world" : sexuality, emotional conflicts, funless duties (her job at the Cheesecake Factory), boredom, responsibilities, disappointment, etc. On the day Leonard decided that he would have "smart and beautiful" babies with his new, and obviously non-geeky, neighbour, he introduced the whole plot (and became its first victim, poor soul). He became the agent of change (protagonist) and dragged Sheldon with him (auxiliary). 


    That is, of course, not to say that Sheldon (or any other character for that matter) is less important than Leonard. He very visibly is not. His many characteristics have made him the most iconic character of the show. However, if it were just for him, there would be no show because, simply put, show = plot = change and Sheldon hates and resists change. 


    I believe that, in spite of the obvious delight the writers take in Sheldon and the pleasure with which they put him at the centre of so many episodes, they are very mindful of the overall narrative structure of the show. They know that, considering said structure, Penny and Sheldon together would make little to no sense. So I doubt the were even ever tempted to go for it, regardless of the different characters' respective popularity levels.


    Sorry, I'm out of likes for the day. We need more likes, or we need a way to bank unused likes for the future.

    I gave you one of mine ;)

    • Like 7
  12. You would think Penny would have a better bond with Leonard and would want to shares these same tidbits of information about herself with him. and please I am tired of hearing that it's due to how she feels about Leonard so it's why she doesn't.

    I am sorry to read that but, unfortunately, I am afraid it is the only explanation. And it is not a particularly far-fetched one, I believe. 


    I remember an interview Stephen Fry gave once about therapy (his own) and why a man as popular as him would need to resort to a professional to talk about his problems when his many intelligent and perceptive friends would be more than willing to listen to him and help him out with his issues. He replied by saying; if you had a very shameful/ugly rash in a "naughty" place on your body, would you show it to a doctor you know personally/socially or would you find a dermatologist in the phone book, a doctor you have never met and will never meet again, and show it to him/her instead ? 

    The answer is, for most people, painfully obvious.


    Most of us do not want the people we love to know "nasty" things about us for we want them to keep on loving us. 

    Penny is, for whatever reason, not proud of that movie. She is actually downright ashamed of it. She does not want the man she loves to be ashamed of her so she keeps it from him. Sheldon conversely, is not somebody whose opinion she values tremendusly. She can let him examine her without any embarassment or remorse. 


    I agree the writers are reliving their nerdy lives through Leonard (heck it came through big times at this year Comic Con; ask me it was a little creepy at how much of one the guys kept going on and on about getting to working with Kaley) but I feel they are going overboard and it is damaging the Leonard character.  Leonard gets enough flak from anti-Leonard and even some Lenny fans that he only wants to be with Penny for her looks, it's old and the writers needs to move on. I don't know in what context the movie is being shown on the boat but you can bet this will be something else that will be held against Leonard for years to come.  If Leonard is the writers homeboy, I really hate so see what it would be like if they disliked the character and I don't see where they are protective of the character or of Lenny to be honest.

    It is old, I agree. but it is not out of character.


    Leonard's initial attraction to Penny was purely physical. When he said "smart and beautiful" in reference to the babies the two of them would have, he even implicitely assumed Penny had nothing to offer in the brain department (she would be the provider of the "beautiful" bit). That has of course changed over the years. He has learnt to know Penny, to find her funny, smart, full of bravado, dangerously Hulk-like, self-destructive, cowardly, generous and many other things. And he is still as in love as he ever was, if not more. But the beauty thing is still there, floating in the ether. 


    Perhaps because it is the one thing he cannot quite wrap his mind around. He still cannot get over the fact that she is this pretty. He feels like he won the lottery and wants everyone to know. It is quite childish and, again I agree, it would be great for the writers to move on but... I suppose the novelty of Penny's remarkable physique simply does not wear off. 


    Yes Leonard can do some crazy things at times --- but we are to believe that Leonard Google Penny and found this movie back when they first met and guess what he shared it with Sheldon.

    To be fair, we do not know how much of the film Leonard shared with Sheldon. Did he specifically show him the shower scene (strange) or did he play the film as a whole (because he thought it was good ?) ? 

    As for Leonard sharing very personal things with Sheldon, well.. He did narrate the whole mid-sex proposal disaster to him amongst many other private events Penny would have prefered he kept completely secret. Not entirely out of character for him. He, like Penny, likes to use Sheldon as a sounding board. 


    Also, and it may feel like splittng hair but why the hell not, there is quite a difference between watching somebody's topless body on a computer screen and seeing them completely naked in the flesh. While Leonard may be sort of OK with his best friend (and some crewmates he will never see again) viewing Penny in a film, he may be completely freaked out by any of them being in the room with her while she is disrobed. Just a guess. 

  13. My initial shock is over, so I am going to wait till episode report before I get critical any more. I do have one general comment, this episode is not the cute loving Lenny moment we were looking for, Penny is made to look even more loose and Leonard is made to look even more pathetic. Add to that, their communications seemed to do more harm to their relationship than good, so you really can't blame a Lenny shipper for not being happy about this episode, it was the opposite of what we were expecting.

    I believe I understand your viewpoint and parts of your disappointment but (and I am sorry for being nitpicky) "loose" and "pathetic" might be a bit strong.


    I am not going to rehash the eternal debate about Penny's mores and canonically confused romantic past but how can appearing topless in a film be considered "loose" ? Catherine Deneuve, Isabelly Hupert, Juliette Binoche, Jeanne Moreau, Helen Mirren, Tilda Swinton, Kate Winslet, etc. All appeared topless in films (actually five of them at least appeared completely naked in major movies). Did that make them look "loose" in anybody's mind ? I understand Penny's embarassment : the film was probably cr*p sexploitation and she only agreed to be in it because she was a bright-eyed kid from Nebraska who needed a first credit attached to her name. But how that could reflect poorly on her as a person is a mystery to me. 


    As for Leonard, well... "Pathetic" may be a bit too much. Slightly sad and inappropriate, definitely, but ultimately well-meaning. I agree this particular trope ("look at how pretty my girlfriend is") should be dropped : it has been done before, and done better (the Comic Con photograph had this "hostage picture" dimension that made it much funnier than the upcoming incarnation of the same joke). It is time for the writers to move on. 


    I agree SRAM that what's in the taping report isn't what I wanted and I feel that Lenny fans are always getting kicked in the gut once again.  It's always one step forward and ten steps back.  I knew sending Leonard off wasn't going to be good for him and looks like the writers have proven me right --- they need an excuse to get him out of the way for some P/S bonding and look at what we got.

    I migt be over confident but I really do not sense any desire on the writers' part to pander to the Shenny crowd. While TPTB are definitely in love with Sheldon and recognise his potential as a character, he is not their homeboy. Leonard is.

    Leonard is the character through which they seemingly get to relive (and improve) their nerdy years. He is the guy who gets all the action and all the sympathy. They appear to live vicariously through him and that is all the protection Leonard (and by extension, the Lenny 'shipping) needs. 


    Shenny is non existent, for all means and purposes. It was never meant to be and has not been developped. Not ever. Sheldon and Penny are great characters together : they are hilarious, their relationship is loads of fun to watch and very moving at times, Ms. Cuoco and Mr. Parsons play off each other extraordinarily well. But that is it.

    Leonard prophesied in the pilot that he would have "smart and beautiful" babies with Penny and so it shall be. 

    • Like 6
  14. Nobody is arguing that Sheldon's hugs aren't special, they were simply saying they're no reason to freak out that there's romance coming (like some people tend to), since he hugs people he has no romantic interest towards. And that him suddenly having a problem hugging Amy (when he didn't in the past, since he spent a whole evening cuddling with her) is inconsistent with the fact that he does hug all sorts of people, important or not. 

    I think there is a little extra subtlety to Sheldon's hugs that may explain his continued reticence when it comes to Amy. 


    Sheldon does not just hug people because he likes them. To the best of my recollection, he only does so when particularly overwhelmed/extremely pleased. So it is not just a matter of persons, but also one of context. He needs to be so excited/delighted that he cannot express it with words and therefore resorts to using his long, lean arms to communicate his sentiment. 

    It is quite in keeping with the rest of the character to be fair : Sheldon is a wordy guy. He has an OED in the head and is not afraid to use it. His body is just a vessel to his mind (to him at least). As long as the brain works, the body does not (hence this supreme economy of movement displayed by Mr. Parsons). But when the cerebral chemistry goes south, then the body takes over, i.e. hugging people or squirming on the floor in extasy when dominoes fall. 


    To get a hug, Amy has to bypass Dr Cooper's brain. 

    • Like 1
  15. That's the thing. I do not think Amy is brave, eager and sexual underneath it all. I think she's very much talk.  She's a virgin too. Mayim made that point in her recent GD interview, that the D&D sex was a very interesting scene to shoot because it shows how even though Amy talks and talks and comes across as sexually aggressive, she gets really nervous and floored when faced with actual intimacy. 

    I did not mean "sexual" as in "sexually experienced". That has been made very clear. But "sexual" as in "equiped with a very healthy sex drive".


    The writers could have turned her into a female version of Sheldon. That was actually what she seemed like for her first handful of appearances : somebody to whom relationships were purely utilitarian and who would have been delighted to bypass sex in order to reproduce efficiently and neatly. But they rather quickly changed the dynamics and provided her with decidedly non-Sheldonian traits : a desire to socialise and live a "normal" life, a healthy dose of sentimentality and, yes, a fully functional sex drive. 


    Is her "bark" worse than her "bite", so to say ? Sure.

    Would she have gone to the lavatories with the others if the girls had agreed to her "plan" ? Debatable but maybe not. However, just the fact that she has those thoughts/fantasies and feels ok with them differenciates her from Sheldon who, just at the idea, would probably want to wipe his mind clean with Purell. 


    You are of course correct when you state that she wants Sheldon and only Sheldon. She is, after all, a romantic princess (complete with tiara). But, to me, she is no wallflower deep down. If her possee were more adventurous, she would probably go along wih it, and gladly ! She might not go all the way crazy and wild, but she would certainly have one hell of a time. Let's face it, the girl has some twenty years of pent-up adolescence stocked inside of her and may very well be just a couple of Cosmopolitans away from dancing on the table. 

    • Like 1
  16. Worst Amy line they ever gave her. That's the main reason I absolutely loath that episode. 

    Really ? I loved that line ! And its follow up "Who's forever 63 now ?"


    I genuinely appreciate that Amy is such a foxy lady : in spite of her conservative appearance, she is wild, completely open-minded, funky and willing to experiment. For too long, she was left on the shelf because of her quirkiness but now that she has the girl possee she always dreamt of, she cannot wait to go crazy, springbreak style ! That, to me, is one of her most attractive traits.


    She is oddly brave, eager, sexual and confident (at least when her friends are with her). It is because of all of these things, in my opinion, that she is able to withstand the difficulties a relationship with Sheldon entails. She is a huntress waiting for her prey. Quite a rare occurence on television and a nice tour de force on Ms. Bialik's part who manages not to make it look or sound creepy !

    • Like 1
  17. I'm guessing Amy didnt tell the girls what was said in the bedroom and rightly so!

    The bedroom scene was definitely a breakthrough and if Sheldon proves he is willing to keep on trying, then everything is great. 


    However one has to consider viewpoints. Bernadette's "allegiance", if I can phrase it like that, lies first with Amy, not Sheldon or the Shamy as an entity. While Bernie likes Cooper and is a good friend to him, they are not particularly close. Conversely, Amy is one of her dearest friends : it makes perfect sense to me that she would give priority to her pal's happiness and, if she sincerely feels Amy is not as happy as she could be because of Sheldon, she has every right to mention it to her. 

    The same logic applies to Penny and her advise to Bernadette : Penny, for quite some time, was not particularly fond of Howard (for good reasons, I believe). However, she likes Bernadette very much. So she told her friend to do what was best for her. Not Howard or their pairing. 


    I don't remember about Amy saying about going to bathrooms for sex? You may have to remind me!

    "So, what’s the plan? Are we gonna teach our fellas a lesson by getting stinking drunk, luring strange men into the bathroom, and turning the toilet stall into a temple of the senses?" - Amy, The Santa Simulation. 

    • Like 2
  18. It occurs to me that Bernadette thinks the shamy is a joke (ala) love spell if she is trying to encourage Amy to go off with some random bloke, Sheldon should be informed

    For comedy purposes, it might be interesting. If there is one thing more painful to Sheldon than being pursued, it is being ignored and dismissed as second best. A little drop of jealousy might bring forth interesting results. 


    In the overall context of the episode however, I believe we should be more relaxed. Let's face it, Howard and Sheldon are not easy to live with : one alternates between treating his wife like his mother and like his fling and the other has yet to open up to his girlfriend in a "normal" way. The girls are frustrated and lashing out. They wish things were different : Bernadette would like Howard to be a teeny bit more like Sheldon (not so clingy and sugar sweet) and Amy would like a zest of Howard in her Sheldon (especially the stripper pole thing, I would imagine). 


    I do not believe Bernadette thinks Shamy is a joke per se. I assume she just does not understand how Amy can go on with it with so little feedback from Sheldon. In fairness, it is a justified interrogation. Most women would have given up on Shelly by now. Amy, as we know, has nerves of steel but it is a lot to take for one romantic biologist. Bernadette is allowed to let Amy know she has other options and Amy should be aware of them, just for the sake of her self-esteem. 

    • Like 4
  19. Tensor and eirwinrommel pretty much covered everything (and I agree) so I'll just mention the one thing they left out

    2) Since when is Sheldon willing to act like a girl on a slumber party and share deep dark secrets?   Yet he suddenly is sharing deep secrets with Penny?  Where did that come from..especially from a man who thinks all his time should be spent solving the universe's problems?

    In this episode, Sheldon is, for the first time in a really long time, sans enabler/nanny/carer/victim/brother/parental figure. So distraught is he that he has a nightmare at the beginning of the episode. If I were to play amateur psychologist, I would say that this occurence along with the meltdown he experienced when performing his little Star Trek-themed autobiographical play with Penny tend to point towards serious separation anxiety on Sheldon's part. 


    For many different reasons (mostly a nice mélange of social inadequacy and smothering from Momma Cooper and Leonard), Sheldon is not self-reliant. He may believe he is, he may pretent he is, but he is not. At that point in the story, he needs and misses Leonard. So he goes to the next best thing, the only other person who has been something akin to a "parent" to him : Penny. 

    Does he act a bit out of character when doing so ? Absolutely. But this is what he does when he is of-kilter. Case in point : Soft Kitty. Sheldon is not an emotional guy at all; he often ridicules what he considers mindless sentimentality. Yet, the moment he gets sick, he wants a mommy figure to sing his favourite lullaby from when he was a toddler. 


    To Sheldon, missing Leonard is "a kind of sick". So he behaves accordingly and displays a rare patience for things he would otherwise consider useless. 

    • Like 5
  20. Hello ol' friends !


    You are so right, I would love for Penny to say something about him knowing about it and they Leonard look at her and ask her why she can tell her deep dark secrets to Sheldon on not the boyfriend she says she love.  Then he should walk away from her till she comes groveling back.

    I believe others have mentioned it before but there may not be any actual contradiction between Penny confiding in Sheldon and not being so comfortable doing so with her boyrfiend. 


    Penny cares for what Leonard thinks. She cares a lot. His opinion matters to her : if she were to reveal something she considers shameful to him, she would expect him to be equally ashamed for and of her. But she does not want that. She wants him to think well of her, to respect and love her. Therefore she hides things from him if she believes they might be harmful to his affection. 

    Conversely, Sheldon's opinion is broadly speaking irrelevant to Penny. Even if he were to think any less of her because of a confession she made (and let's face it, his opinion of her is not very high anyway), she could fight back with some snarky comment of her own or, better, complete indifference. 


    To Penny, confiding in Sheldon is like confiding in a cat or a plush toy. The recipient of the confession is inconsequential and might as well be completely inanimate for all means and purposes. 


    I do not think there is any betrayal in Penny's different attitudes to Sheldon and Leonard. If anything, her trying to conceal her "bad" sides from Leonard is a testament to how much she values his opinion.


    As I stated in the Spoiler thread ....


    For me it's not about Penny being in topless in a movie. It's what the writers are doing to Leonard and as his fan I don't like it - it's as if the writers have no clue who his character is.

    I am afraid I disagree. 


    In my opinion, Leonard has never been some harmless kitten, enamoured to the point of utter docility who could never do anything wrong, ill-advised or crass due to the purity of his love. If a kitten he is, the feline has some sharp claws. 


    Leonard is the show's protagonist and, as such, the recipient of most of the viewers' sympathy. I have no problem with that; it is as it should be. But this structural factor may, at times, obscur some of the character's less palatable traits and/or actions : he broke the pact he had with Howard and slept with Raj's sister behind his back; he showed his passive-aggressive side when Penny failed to reciprocte his first ILY; he responded to Penny's worry about Alex with an undeniable touch of glee (before showing compassion); he tried to scare away a nice guy Penny had to work with by lying shamelessly; he basically called Penny stupid (or ignorant or both) in front of a complete stranger; etc. 


    I realise the list above may read like an attempt to portray Leonard as a villain. But it is absolutely not my intention. I know Leonard is a fantastic guy : he is compassionate, frighteningly intelligent, kind, supportive, funny, sweet and definitely not without charm (physically). But he is not helpless nor is he always somebody's victim. 


    He does present that way. Partly because the writers make sure to hammer that aspect of him home (Leonard, in their eyes, is the guy who "cannot catch a break") and partly because Mr. Galecki has a surreal talent when it comes to playing puppy love. His Roseanne co-star, John Goodman, once described him as capable of embodying all the qualities of a teddy bear in a "I Wuv You" T-shirt. And he was right. There is something about those curls and those mournful eyes that just makes one want to hug him. 


    But there is more to Leonard than that. He can be rude, he can be improper, he can be crass and he can, at times, show Penny off like a trophy. It is not out of character. He has done it before (the photograph he took to Comic Con comes to mind). 

    I, like you, am not particularly fond of this particular side of him. The repetitionn especially, might in time make him look rather shallow and I wish the writers could find another way to let us know he is proud of and happy with his girlfriend. But, so far, it is in keeping with his history and past attitude with Penny : sometimes, he is just a silly puppy who cannot quite contain his joy and wets the carpet (I am not sure I am proud of this image)... We'll just have to deal with it and let it go. 

    • Like 6
  21. Back in time for the goodness ! 


    First off, thank you Jennifer for the great recap. Do no concern yourself for the exact order or sequence of events. Spoilers are to be taken as lovely amuse-bouches, not scientifically exact accounts of everything that happened. Great job !



    The episode itself seems fine to me. I share Molly's lack of concern. Of course, things could play out terribly wrong but it does not feel like that to me (for the moment... I might sharpen my pitchfork later if necessary).


    Sheldon and Penny hugging : perfectly in keeping with their relationship and not contradictory to Shamy principles, I believe. It has been pretty much established by now that Sheldon sees Penny as a relative, alternating between a sister (hence the constant bickering) and a mother figure (hence the Soft Kitty singing). There is no trace of romance between these two characters, nor could there ever be : the only utcome of such a mismatch would be a murder-suicide (I'll let you decide whose murder and whose suicide). In this instance, they are both lonely and both miss the same person. They rely on each other to get through this tough period, as they have in the past and the hug is part of that. What it is not is a foresign of any sexual/romantic chemistry. If anything, it is the opposite. Sheldon is afraid of intimacy with Amy because, with her, it would mean something.

    In a somewhat similar fashion, Penny was fearful of engaging with Leonard in a romantic fashion for, with him unlike with all her other boyfriends from the past, it could never be a simple, mindless hookup. 


    Amy and Bernadette... While it may seem a bit dire for Bernadette to advise Amy to "shop around", I believe it may have positive consequences or, at least, an encouraging subtext. Amy is a lovely young woman : she is very intelligent, funny (in a querky way), charming, loving, nice to a fault, quite lovely physically... She has a lot to offer and it is high time she realised that. It would be nice to see her appeal to someone other than Sheldon. Not to break them up (please, Shamys, do not murder me !) but to give her extra confidence in the knowledge that her romantic options are not limited to either Dr Cooper or lifelong celibacy. The woman needs a little ego boost !


    The movie... Somebody on this thread mentioned the French and our laissez-faire attitude to boobies, and I can only agree. But more generally speaking, a topless scene in a movie does not mean said film is a porno. Penny might feel ashamed (perhaps because the movie was really not that good and she accepted to do it just to get a credit in something) but, in and by itself, there is nothing even remotely wrong about appearing topless or nude in a movie. Emma Thompson has done it, George Clooney has done it, Penelope Cruz has done it, Halle Berry has done it, Harvey Keitel has done it, Kate Winslet has done it (and done it and done it again). Who cares ? 

    As for Leonard showing his crewmates the film, well. It is another instance of him not quite believing he gets to be her boyfriend. I have to say I find these occurences a bit "old" now : first there was the photograph he took to Comic Con, then Pr Proton's little wink-wink-nudge-nudge, now this... While I believe I understand the sentiment the writers are trying to convey (Leonard cannot believe his luck), the repetition makes, at times, Leonard look like a guy who does not appreciate his partner beyond the trophy factor. Tough balancing act and it may be time for the writers to find another way to communicate Leonard's joy.

    Also, on a side note, am I the only one whose first reaction to the movie revelation was happiness because it showed Penny's acting CV was not limited to two plays (including one above a bowling alley) and a commercial ? 


    Well, looking forward to the episode (and the new season). 

    • Like 6
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