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4.24 The Roommate Transmogrification (May 19)


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Come on guys, it's hardly the Balkans Crisis is it?

If we're talking about TBBT being ruined, the Penny and Raj fling is the least of the show's worries...

Crap plot move though, I agree. Honestly though it doesn't surprise me with the generally shoddy writing this season.

This is the crux of it...bad writing. Having those two jump in the sack was the weakest, most obvious, "Here's how we'll get em to tune in next season."

The worst part is it'll work.

Sure you gotta go with something stunning and something dramatic to provide a cliffhanger. But they've gotta stay within the safe confines of a comedy....so it's not like someone can get hit by a car or get cancer or something.

So they go with the old standby of someone sleeping with someone they're not supposed to. Other notable cliffhanger cliches:

  • Someone gets a new job and has to move away
  • Someone gets pregnant
  • Someone splits up

How about something more intricate? Penny's father takes sick and she has to move home to care for him, only to find out he's not her real father and the person who is......*BUM BUM BUUUUUUUUM Sheldon comes down with some neurological condition where he loses his intellect and takes a sudden fascination with tequila The Real Housewives of Retarded County?

Or how about one of the cast goes missing? What if Raj, Howard, and Penny walked into the apartment to find it completely cleared out and Sheldon and Leonard no where to be found? They can't find them and get all sorts of strange clues that suggest something very amiss is going on. At the very...a phone rings and the last thing we hear is "Oh...no.."

How about a sudden and unexplained character reversal of the entire cast from the moment the finales starts? They all walk in, Raj and Howard are actually cool, Sheldon is caring and empathic, and Penny suddenly starts doing complex calculus....and the entire episode carries on that way and at the end you go "WHAT THE HE11 was THAT? Are we in an alternate universe?"

Anything would have been better. Personally, I'd rather have had Penny or Raj get hit by a car. With what happened in the finale....I hope thats the first thing to happen in the first season of Episode 5.

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Uggh...HATED that ending. Penny reveals herself to be a skank and Raj is a two-faced pathetic friend who first wanted to jump Bernie then moves straight onto Penny. What a way to ruin two likeable

Oh hell No! That's what I said at the scene on the bed in the morning "Hell no!" I also said something not so good in spanish about Raj. I think they left Sheldon and Amy alone because they have n

The ending of this episode made me want to vomit. They have completely polluted the relationships between Leonard and Raj, and Leonard and Penny. Raj is a jerk, Penny is a skank, and Leonard is a p

How about a sudden and unexplained character reversal of the entire cast from the moment the finales starts? They all walk in, Raj and Howard are actually cool, Sheldon is caring and empathic, and Penny suddenly starts doing complex calculus....and the entire episode carries on that way and at the end you go "WHAT THE HE11 was THAT? Are we in an alternate universe?"

I love this idea. They did an alternate reality episode in Friends once where everyone's lives had taken a different turn. I loved it. There would be such a lot of scope for the writers and the characters. Bring it on, I say!:icon_cheesygrin:

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Come on guys, it's hardly the Balkans Crisis is it?

If we're talking about TBBT being ruined, the Penny and Raj fling is the least of the show's worries...

Crap plot move though, I agree. Honestly though it doesn't surprise me with the generally shoddy writing this season.

It's not exactly going to bring about the end of the world but as far as the series goes if they go ahead with it then it's the end of the series. I know there are other problems, the characters seeming to change personalities, no consistency with Sheldons quirks(refuses to dance, dances happily, sneaking into hospitals now scared of them and so on), they were bad enough but this is the final nail in the coffin for me.

When you have this type of relationship on a show there are rules they can sleep with anyone they like as long as they aren't part of the core. Friends tried it out with Joey an Racheal but were sensible enough to take it slow and test the waters first and when it wasn't popular they dumped it and made sure they never actual slept together.

It doesn't matter who the couple are if they started out with Raj and Penny an then had Leonard sleep with Penny I'd have the same reaction. It breaks the show. Leonard wouldn't forgive either of them, so the shows over or they further screw up the characters.

They might as well turn it into a sketch show as they are getting to the point that the characters change completely each week. Penny showed no interest in Raj in anyway, bar thinking he was a little creepy when silent and an ass when drunk. Suddenly out of nowhere she's stating she would be all over him if they weren't friends. Raj was a good sensitive guy who has turned into a backstabber to his two best friends, Penny started out as a bit of a party girl who's main fault was always picking the wrong guy, now she's not far off walking the streets. There's rumours they have been converting unused Two and A Half Men scripts which is very believable. I swear that if Bernadette wasn't around they would have Penny sleep with Howard rather than Raj just for the shock value.

I don't think even the writers know what's happening next as Bill Prady and the cast who normally talk about the show constantly haven't mentioned it since the finale. Seems like they are under orders not to say a thing.

I could understand them wanting to keep Leonard and Penny apart for a while both for story reasons and because the actors dated. The episode where Penny's father comes to town contained scenes that genuinely looked awkward. But to do it this way which either destroys the four main guys or has some bizarre explanation as to why Leonard would give either of them the time of day is just pathetic. Have Penny meet a childhood sweetheart or have her meet a decent(non core) guy who actually treats her well so Leonard has to try to be happy for het anything but screw up the main group anymore than they already have.


Plus they can't ruin the series now, I've only just found this forum with you lot to talk to! Well moan to so far lol

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Come on guys, it's hardly the Balkans Crisis is it?

If we're talking about TBBT being ruined, the Penny and Raj fling is the least of the show's worries...

Crap plot move though, I agree. Honestly though it doesn't surprise me with the generally shoddy writing this season.

It's not exactly going to bring about the end of the world but as far as the series goes if they go ahead with it then it's the end of the series. I know there are other problems, the characters seeming to change personalities, no consistency with Sheldons quirks(refuses to dance, dances happily, sneaking into hospitals now scared of them and so on), they were bad enough but this is the final nail in the coffin for me.

When you have this type of relationship on a show there are rules they can sleep with anyone they like as long as they aren't part of the core. Friends tried it out with Joey an Racheal but were sensible enough to take it slow and test the waters first and when it wasn't popular they dumped it and made sure they never actual slept together.

It doesn't matter who the couple are if they started out with Raj and Penny an then had Leonard sleep with Penny I'd have the same reaction. It breaks the show. Leonard wouldn't forgive either of them, so the shows over or they further screw up the characters.

They might as well turn it into a sketch show as they are getting to the point that the characters change completely each week. Penny showed no interest in Raj in anyway, bar thinking he was a little creepy when silent and an ass when drunk. Suddenly out of nowhere she's stating she would be all over him if they weren't friends. Raj was a good sensitive guy who has turned into a backstabber to his two best friends, Penny started out as a bit of a party girl who's main fault was always picking the wrong guy, now she's not far off walking the streets. There's rumours they have been converting unused Two and A Half Men scripts which is very believable. I swear that if Bernadette wasn't around they would have Penny sleep with Howard rather than Raj just for the shock value.

I don't think even the writers know what's happening next as Bill Prady and the cast who normally talk about the show constantly haven't mentioned it since the finale. Seems like they are under orders not to say a thing.

I could understand them wanting to keep Leonard and Penny apart for a while both for story reasons and because the actors dated. The episode where Penny's father comes to town contained scenes that genuinely looked awkward. But to do it this way which either destroys the four main guys or has some bizarre explanation as to why Leonard would give either of them the time of day is just pathetic. Have Penny meet a childhood sweetheart or have her meet a decent(non core) guy who actually treats her well so Leonard has to try to be happy for het anything but screw up the main group anymore than they already have.


Plus they can't ruin the series now, I've only just found this forum with you lot to talk to! Well moan to so far lol

Well I'm pretty sure they will keep Leonard and Penny apart for as long as they possibly can but always keep the hinting there that they want to be together. It's transparent to me and anyone who has seen any other sitcom; them getting together finally will be the big finale. I was never a huge fan of the show, but remember in "Friends" when Ross and Rachael dated and then split up... then the big finale was them getting together again? Like that. They made this storyline with Raj and Penny to put a spanner in the works and drag things out. You just know that after Priya left and after what has been brewing in Penny's mind, she will go running back to him. This event will delay things long enough for the writers to milk it.

You just know that they are going to build up for ages - Leonard is going to be hurt by Penny, Penny is going to be hurt by Leonard, then all of a sudden in a big climax with a tense scene with those two and their repressed feelings for each other, Penny is going to be pushed into saying "...because I love you!" to Leonard.

This didn't kill the show for me; Season 4 in general did. Perhaps this all started even as early as the end of Season 2 but as far as I'm concerned, this show has been going downhill for a long time now. Finally I think I can safely say that it's now crap. We'll see what season 5 brings. They have 3 months to think about what they are going to do next. Lets just hope they make good use of the time and get this show back on track.

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Yes, it's been going downhill, but it's still the only show I go out of my way to watch and will continue to do so (Inconsistencies with Sheldons quirks has bugged me, sure. He can't be scared of hospitals. That's where the brain scanners are).

Penny and Raj makes sense in a Hollywood sorta way. She's a slut, has been from season 1, but that doesn't mean she's unlikeable. My biggest worry is, what is this going to do to Raj and Howards ersatz homosexual relationship?

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My very belated input here, after spending 15 minutes going through the last 10 pages (partly derailed by the Hitler guy).

I thought it was quite an interesting finale - not very funny, and certainly not one of my favorite episodes of the season, but it did establish some story development and throw a curve.

I agree with everyone above who said that there was nothing either implausible or unethical about the Raj/Penny thing. It could be seen coming, in that situation; it was clearly done for the shock value, to leave a cliffhanger, and it worked on that level. The incident left me with a feeling of discomfort, though, and I can't place exactly why. Perhaps because it felt like a bit of sensationalist writing.

Leonard/Priya are probably over, which is good. I find the Howard/Bernadette storyline quite engaging.. he's the one among our core group who has had the most character growth, over the years, and I'm curious to see how this new situation plays out. Again, not really funny, but interesting if you've grown to love the characters. Also theirs is a nerd relationship, with both of them being in academics/technical fields - and it's sort of the more 'normal' counterpoint to the other nerd coupling here, i.e. Sheldon/Amy zaniness.

Which brings me to the only scene in this episode which had me falling over myself laughing - a.k.a. 'my hands are magic'. Jim and Mayim were brilliant - the way he played it, and her dry blaise reactions, and the ending ('that doesn't interest me, goodbye'). I am so COMPLETELY in love with these two. :D

I might be biased (for the above reason), but I've certainly enjoyed this season much more than season 3, which for me had been flagging towards the end. Amy, and her dynamics with Sheldon and with Penny/Bernadette, have been a breath of fresh air; I really, really hope she stays on. Also hurray for the addition of female nerds! For me, it brings a balance to the show that was missing before, when Penny was the only female character.

@Bazinga Girl - I know who you are, from your sig, following our discussions of that killing moment on YT. :) I love the caption you've put.

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The incident left me with a feeling of discomfort, though, and I can't place exactly why.

So have you thought any more about why you are discomforted? Is it because of the sudden shift in the character arcs of Penny or Raj, or intrusive manipulation by the writers?

Personally , I think it is an excellent introduction to a new, possible, relationship. Raj and Penny together would be very interesting, for however long the writers decided to keep it going. I could see a relationship between them lasting quite a while.

I thought of a nice subtle but dramatic ending to the episode, considering Penny's comment to Raj in the bed.

Just as Penny is walking out the door.. Raj says "See you, Penny.". Penny freezes in mid-step for half a second, then continues walking and repliess" "See you, Raj". That would have set up a whole new dynamic going into the next season.

Either way, I hope the Penny/Raj incident is not airbrushed out, but developed further.

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Anyone else laugh as hard as I did when Bernadette gave her last line to Howard but she sounded just like his Mother! Classic!


They could always write in one of those "it was all a dream" scenarios. Worked for Roseanne :)

I think you are onto something here netmouse. I recall they have used dream sequences with Raj but they were about him and Bernadette. I just can't see how the writers are going to make it funny that Raj slept with Leonard's Ex. Forget the roomate agreement with Sheldon, Didn't Raj break the unspoken buddy agreement! My money is on they passed out and nothing really happened but the tension of the intent would still be hard to write funny. It has to go to dream sequence........no choice hands down! Plus Raj is MINE! LOL

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I'm not sure if it's because this episode is still lodged in people's memory or it's really this popular, but this episode is currently topping our Season 4 episode tournament.

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I hated what they did to Penny's character. Having her in bed with Raj is just wrong. It was a trashy and contrived way of setting up a cheap soap opera style cliff hanger. The dedicated fans of this show deserve better. I can't believe I am so bothered by a TV show. That ending made me feel sick. I can't even watch the old shows, which I loved to do.

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@Tripper: I'm thinking it's because there is just so much to talk about with regards to this particular episode.

The other seasons didn't really end on an "unexpected" note as such imo.

Also, I think the rantings from the troll raja-ban-me-i'm-an-idiot, kinda took the thread on a short detour for a little while.

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@Tripper - doesn't necessarily mean that the episode was popular just because everyone is talking about it. Also you have to remember that it was the Season finale. A majority of people talking about this episode actually hate what happened in it.

And yeah also what netmouse said.

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I hated what they did to Penny's character. Having her in bed with Raj is just wrong. It was a trashy and contrived way of setting up a cheap soap opera style cliff hanger. The dedicated fans of this show deserve better. I can't believe I am so bothered by a TV show. That ending made me feel sick. I can't even watch the old shows, which I loved to do.

I agree totally to the "made me feel sick". Thats just it, I don't want to watch a show that makes me feel crappy - I also tried a couple of reruns and couldn't finish them either. If they leave this as is, I'll stop watching the show as well.


So, a little bit of fan fiction to fix the problem. ...Leonard comes in the front door to see Penny and Raj asleep. Penny on the couch and Raj in the chair. Raj has a big smile on his face.Leonard says "whats going on here?"Raj wakes up (notices Penny seemingly asleep) and says "I just had a wonderful dream. I dreamt that I woke up in the morning with ... Howard." Then Penny (not actually asleep) rolls over and says "Well, I just had a nightmare. I dreamt that I woke up with... (looking at Raj) you." A bit of a twist on the dream idea, but consistent with everyones characters.

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the show's success means the writers are writing more mainstream (Cliche) storylines. I watched this show with people who love science and the main complaint is "not enough theories and too much relationship drama"

I found the episode entertaining, I could do with more Amy and Sheldon! but the whole Raj/Penny is awkward, just a teeny bit.. 'wrong'. I agree that Howard had a lot of character development and I like that.

Greatly anticipating season5!

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@Bazinga Girl - I know who you are, from your sig, following our discussions of that killing moment on YT. :) I love the caption you've put.

Well spin my nipple-nuts and send me to Alaska! My cover is blown!!!:icon_cheesygrin:

I'm glad you like the caption. Jim is very sweet isn't he?

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I hated what they did to Penny's character. Having her in bed with Raj is just wrong. It was a trashy and contrived way of setting up a cheap soap opera style cliff hanger. The dedicated fans of this show deserve better. I can't believe I am so bothered by a TV show. That ending made me feel sick. I can't even watch the old shows, which I loved to do.

I agree totally to the "made me feel sick". Thats just it, I don't want to watch a show that makes me feel crappy - I also tried a couple of reruns and couldn't finish them either. If they leave this as is, I'll stop watching the show as well.


So, a little bit of fan fiction to fix the problem. ...Leonard comes in the front door to see Penny and Raj asleep. Penny on the couch and Raj in the chair. Raj has a big smile on his face.Leonard says "whats going on here?"Raj wakes up (notices Penny seemingly asleep) and says "I just had a wonderful dream. I dreamt that I woke up in the morning with ... Howard." Then Penny (not actually asleep) rolls over and says "Well, I just had a nightmare. I dreamt that I woke up with... (looking at Raj) you." A bit of a twist on the dream idea, but consistent with everyones characters.

I'd watch that.


The incident left me with a feeling of discomfort, though, and I can't place exactly why.

So have you thought any more about why you are discomforted? Is it because of the sudden shift in the character arcs of Penny or Raj, or intrusive manipulation by the writers?

Personally , I think it is an excellent introduction to a new, possible, relationship. Raj and Penny together would be very interesting, for however long the writers decided to keep it going. I could see a relationship between them lasting quite a while.

I thought of a nice subtle but dramatic ending to the episode, considering Penny's comment to Raj in the bed.

Just as Penny is walking out the door.. Raj says "See you, Penny.". Penny freezes in mid-step for half a second, then continues walking and repliess" "See you, Raj". That would have set up a whole new dynamic going into the next season.

Either way, I hope the Penny/Raj incident is not airbrushed out, but developed further.

I am not sure what show you have been watching. Apparently not the same one I was watching. Raj and Penny in a relationship. Puuuleease!

There has been nothing to indicate that as a possibility. Did you see the look on Penny's face when she realized what she had done? She was rightly horrified.


Still fuming about the whole Penny Raj thing. Makes me want to throw up. If they don't do a "they passed out it didn't happen" in the first episode of the new season I'm out. My dvd's will go in the bin too, I can't watch the old episodes knowing where it all leads. Completely ruined the entire series for me.

Penny sleeping with Raj is about as likely as the rapture happening last weekend and it's even less likely that Leonard would forgive either of them. So disappointed my favourite series has been ruined for me.

Amen to that. Not the rapture, but the Armageddon of this episode. It has really ruined the show for me. Can't watch it.


I seriuosly hope that they just passed out in the same bed.

I can't believe that Penny could get drunk enough to do that with Raj in Leonard's bed and still be sober enough to do the deed. She's been drinking since a teenager and though she uses poor judgement when drunk, I think she would know she was about to have sex with the wrong friend in the wrong bed. Just wouldn't happen. Drunk is not an excuse for this one. Its trashy writing.


To completely change the direction of the thread...

I'm wondering if this might encourage Howard to actually get a doctorate of his own?

Probably not. It is, as has been said in the show, not usual for engineers to get doctorates. Don't need them. On this tack I was rather disappointed by the writers turning Bernadette in to a parody of a 1950's chauvinistic pig. She has stated in the past that she is protective of Howard's masculinity. For her to say, "Don't worry about the money. Let me worry about that. I just want my Baby to have pretty things," is completely out of character. It was also unnecessary. Howard has demonstrated his ability to start a jealous fight quite well. He didn't need that ridiculous $15K watch to set him off. Bernadette isn't an idiot and she wouldn't have bought that thing.

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@smeghead - I think the discomfort was mainly due to the thing being so unexpected (though in retrospect, it wasn't really.. Raj and Penny have been the two lonely single characters throughout this season). Penny's history with Leonard wasn't the issue at all, for me - he seems to have happily moved on with someone else (Raj's sister, to boot), and IMO neither Raj nor Penny were under any obligation to be 'loyal' to him in that respect.

But the incident just seemed to me to be slightly forced, put in only to create a 'season finale' sensation - not a sincere plot twist. As you said, a bit of manipulation on the part of the writers. I very much doubt if it's going to lead to anything substantial in the next season, apart from some initial awkwardness - and it's also quite possible that they'll go the 'it didn't really happen' route, seeing that there have been many negative reactions among the audience.


@Bazinga Girl - I know who you are, from your sig, following our discussions of that killing moment on YT. :) I love the caption you've put.

Well spin my nipple-nuts and send me to Alaska! My cover is blown!!!:icon_cheesygrin:

I'm glad you like the caption. Jim is very sweet isn't he?

It certainly is, blame the detective in me!

That's axiomatic. :)

Your sig is seriously distracting me from reading anything on the page.

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Raj Blagojevich beat me to it - the only reason I see some people having a problem with the penny and raj hookup is - because Raj is Indian.

Several people have explained how the penny and raj deal is totally normal and acceptable given the current circumstances of the show, yet others are just "disgusted" but it.

The "disgusted" represent why south asian and east asian male characters can't get any, and definitely not any white girl action in hollywood. Seems a bit racist doesn't it??

Nonsense. I would have been just as disgusted if Penny slept with Sheldon or Howard. The disgust isn't aimed at Raj, but at Penny. Do you think for a second that the character, Penny, that we have come to know, didn't know, that doing what she did would hurt Leonard and possibly destroy his friendship with Raj. I don't. It was a character doing a left turn. I hate it because it would never have happened with that character. The cheap use of drunkeness to excuse a character doing something that is against their nature is really poor writing.


Yeah to the two guys (or even one guy posing as two guys perhaps? :p) accusing everyone of racism here, you should take the chips off of your shoulders. Looking over the thread again, no one mentioned or said anything regarding Raj being Indian, only that he betrayed a friend. I don't see it that way but that's not the point. No racism at all - and if people really are thinking it, they are certainly not saying it.

The only thing more annoying than racism is when people see racism where there is clearly none.

It's not one guy.

I'm not accusing everyone of racism. nor did I single anyone out. In fact didn't I say some people defended it?

You don't have to say, "I hate penny and raj hooking up because raj is indian!" to be racist.

Ignorance can be as annoying as blatant racism.

What I will say is I suspect if Raj was not Indian I think the hookup may not be perceived as negatively.

It can be argued that Raj's whole character is quite racist... as well as Howard I guess.. and others...

White people get pretty self defensive if they think people think they are racist. lol is it racist of me to say that? have you ever heard on of em say, "I'm not racist, I have a black friend!" I actually have, haha.

Sorry for trolling... I"m done now.

Hmmm, yeah because in India there is no racism. Oh wait, they have an active and very pervasive class system. I guess that isn't really racism though.


I'm a harsh man but only on the outside lol:icon_cheesygrin:

But seriously they may both be single adults and so on but there are lines close friends don't cross.

I get why they did it but it's out of character for both Raj and Penny(for the last three seasons anyway) and even for a sitcom it's something that you can't come back from. I just don't buy Penny and Leonard getting back together after this unless Raj is gone and I certainly don't see Leonard being mates with Raj if anything even a meek Leonard would take a swing at him.

I'm surprised how much this has bothered me, it really has ruined the series for me.

I don't think I'm the only one as the cast and Bill Prady normally tweet about episodes and general stuff but they have been very quiet since the finale which is very unusual even on cliff hangers they normally tease fans about what could happen. I think there may have been a backlash.

Gods I hope so. I hope it was a bloody tsunami.

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Penny and Raj's just had drunken sex. It is so obvious from Penny's reaction when she woke up and realized she was naked in bed with Raj that this was something that she didn't want to happen. She has no romantic feelings what so ever for Raj. She was clearly disgusted by her actions that night and wishes that it never happened. Raj just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

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Penny and Raj's just had drunken sex. It is so obvious from Penny's reaction when she woke up and realized she was naked in bed with Raj that this was something that she didn't want to happen. She has no romantic feelings what so ever for Raj. She was clearly disgusted by her actions that night and wishes that it never happened. Raj just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Lucky bastard.

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Take it from Raj's perspective: He was horny! If he was dying for Bernadette to break up with Howard the episode before, why not have him sleep with Penny when they are both drunk. Score Raj! Plus, it's not like Penny or Raj knew Leonard and Priya are going to break up. Two friends got drunk, hooked up. Just so happened everyone was in the room as they walked out. I don't see a problem with it even though Raj just found out Penny wants to be back with Leonard. The way he seen it could have been "he's in a relationship with my sister, no chance of that happening" and when the opportunity came to, he took it.

Also, Leonard was head over heels with Priya before he even met Penny. The first episode we seen her he was saying how he was willing to move to New Delhi just to be with her and it was mentioned they fooled around in the past. Now that he had a relationship with her and is breaking up, I can't see him just jumping back to Penny right away, even if she says how she should have never left him and wants him back. Over time, sure, but if they have that happen within a few episodes, that's kinda dumb. It is definitely possible that, if given a chance between Priya or Penny to be with forever, he would pick Priya over Penny.

Overall a very rushed episode that was just very meh, but definitely worked in getting people talking about it, whether good or bad. I'll still be watching to see what happens next and haven't jumped off the wagon. Here's hoping it just goes bananas in Season 5 with Leonard and Penny getting together once again, but Penny finds out she's pregnant and is not sure if Leonard or Raj is the father!

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Here's hoping it just goes bananas in Season 5 with Leonard and Penny getting together once again, but Penny finds out she's pregnant and is not sure if Leonard or Raj is the father!

that won't ever be the case...it would be Raj, cuz Penny and Leonard hadn't slept together

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Also, Leonard was head over heels with Priya before he even met Penny. The first episode we seen her he was saying how he was willing to move to New Delhi just to be with her and it was mentioned they fooled around in the past. Now that he had a relationship with her and is breaking up, I can't see him just jumping back to Penny right away, even if she says how she should have never left him and wants him back. Over time, sure, but if they have that happen within a few episodes, that's kinda dumb. It is definitely possible that, if given a chance between Priya or Penny to be with forever, he would pick Priya over Penny.

Actually the little polecat already done it when was left by penny, the first thing he did was knocking on leslie winkle door to reignite their previous relationship, and she justlly slammed the door on his face (btw leslie had been -although for few weeks- howard's girlfriend but nobody at that time cried about betrayal, treachery, broken friendship... it seems that lealty rules apply only to determinate people :icon_twisted: )

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