Penny should go out with Sheldon

[gaqo]

(following on from Bangermain).That Leonard would end up with Penny, merely substantiates the cliche of fiction; that leading man and leading woman are destined to be together. If Johnny Galecki, had played Sheldon, then no doubt, this thread would be titled, 'Penny and Leonard should go out'. Fortunately, Lost In THe Sun, has a working knowledge of contemporary literary criticism.

Edited June 11, 2013 by gaqo

[gaqo]

I've realised why Sheldon struck Leonard. Leonard's neediness means that he has no morals; concerning women, and sex. Hence, instantly hits on; Penny, woman upstairs,Stephanie(Howard's potential mate),Missy(Sheldon's sister),elderly donor,Priya(Raj's sister, and despite having pact with Howard not to), Alice(despite being in relationship), even visiting writer friend of Sheldon. Following past form,and having an understanding of Leonard, Sheldon believed Leonard would hit on Amy, because he has no respect, for others with their primary relationships. Unfortunately, the neediness, to be with any woman,defines Leonard's actions, and means that he doesn't really see the woman for who she is, any woman will do. His neediness is all consuming, and renders the other, irrelevant. Sorry Penny. And Phantagrae is right, whether we discuss Romeo and Juliet, or Leonard/Penny/Sheldon, it's all literary criticism, only some would say that the latter is more culturally relevant.

Edited June 11, 2013 by gaqo

[ajond]

I've realised why Sheldon struck Leonard. Leonard's neediness means that he has no morals; concerning women, and sex. Hence, instantly hits; on Penny, woman upstairs,Stephanie(Howard's potential mate),Missy(Sheldon's sister),elderly donor,Priya(Raj's sister, and despite having pact with Howard not to), Alice(despite being in relationship), even visiting writer friend of Sheldon. Following past form,and having an understanding of Leonard, Sheldon believed Leonard would hit on Amy, because he has no respect, for others with their primary relationships. Unfortunately, the neediness, to be with any woman,defines Leonard's actions, and means that he doesn't really see the woman for who she is, any woman will do. His neediness is all consuming, and renders the other, irrelevant. Sorry Penny. And Phantagrae is right, whether we discuss Romeo and Juliet, or Leonard/Penny/Sheldon, it's all literary criticism, only some would say that the latter is more culturally relevant.

Are you for real? Or just trolling.

W

[gaqo]

I absolutely believe everthing I just wrote. The difference between views here, is because some contributors don't have a working knowledge of literary criticism. I admit that some of my posts are provocative. It's the only way to challenge the views of the resolutely dogmatic.

Edited June 11, 2013 by gaqo

[ArmyGirl]

Are you for real? Or just trolling.

W

 

 

Just another Leonard hater and one that worship at the altar of Sheldon.  You know they luves them some Shenny and Leonard is in the way of them getting that fantasy.

 

No where in episode did Leonard want a relationship with or may any kind of overtures towards Army, what happen is that he got to know her better and that is all. 

Edited June 11, 2013 by ArmyGirl

[gaqo]

As I've stated, I like Leonard. I was refering to my shock, that Sheldon would hit Leonard, after his date with Amy, and then saying 'how much he enjoyed it'. It seemed so out of character for Sheldon. But liking Leonard doesn't prevent me from seeing his weaknesses. His strengths, would outweigh, his weaknesses. Part of the problem here is that, some contributors, also don't have a working knowledge of psychology. To understand human relationships, one has to be willing to 'look under the surface', and be honest. The dogmatic, talk as if they work on the show. Please remind us again, what do you do on the show? Or are you just an 'interpreter' like the rest of us.

[phantagrae]

(following on from Bangermain).That Leonard would end up with Penny, merely substantiates the cliche of fiction; that leading man and leading woman are destined to be together. If Johnny Galecki, had played Sheldon, then no doubt, this thread would be titled, 'Penny and Leonard should go out'. Fortunately, Lost In THe Sun, has a working knowledge of contemporary literary criticism.

 

That doesn't mean that only her interpretation is correct.  She's kind of projecting certain traits onto Leonard that aren't necessarily there, including the issue of "neediness".

If Johnny Galecki had played Sheldon, who knows who they would have chosen to play Leonard.  Very probably not Jim.  Who knows if he was even interested in that role.  He was certainly interested in the Sheldon role and Johnny was more interested in the Leonard role, even though the Sheldon role had been suggested to him.

It doesn't mean that JP would have taken the role of Leonard.

 

And the idea of Leading Man and Leading Woman ending up together isn't a cliche, but is the definition of Leading Man/Woman.  If you're telling the story of how two people come together (and that's certainly part of the BBT over-arching story), then by definition, the two characters whose story you're telling are the Leading Man and Leading Woman.

 

If they had been telling the story of how Sheldon and Penny become a couple, then Sheldon would be the Leading Man--same "cliche" isn't it?

Edited June 11, 2013 by phantagrae

[phantagrae]

I've realised why Sheldon struck Leonard. Leonard's neediness means that he has no morals; concerning women, and sex. Hence, instantly hits on; Penny, woman upstairs,Stephanie(Howard's potential mate),Missy(Sheldon's sister),elderly donor,Priya(Raj's sister, and despite having pact with Howard not to), Alice(despite being in relationship), even visiting writer friend of Sheldon. Following past form,and having an understanding of Leonard, Sheldon believed Leonard would hit on Amy, because he has no respect, for others with their primary relationships. Unfortunately, the neediness, to be with any woman,defines Leonard's actions, and means that he doesn't really see the woman for who she is, any woman will do. His neediness is all consuming, and renders the other, irrelevant. Sorry Penny. And Phantagrae is right, whether we discuss Romeo and Juliet, or Leonard/Penny/Sheldon, it's all literary criticism, only some would say that the latter is more culturally relevant.

 

Sheldon hit Leonard because Leonard mentioned Amy and groin in the same sentence.

 

At the time of the wedding date, Amy and Sheldon were not bf/gf, so Sheldon had no romantic or sexual claim on her in terms of their relationship.  Just as he didn't have a claim on her when Stuart asked her out.

But just as Stuart's date with Amy made Sheldon realize that he wanted something more from their relationship, this incident with Leonard was one of the first steps down that road.  Leonard's comment brought out Sheldon's inner caveman.  The flip side of his statement, "She's not for you!" is "She's for me!"  Though he didn't say it, that is the implication.  By karate-chopping Leonard, Sheldon's inner caveman was staking a claim on his woman--Amy.

Obviously Sheldon has never cared how many times Leonard goes out with Penny or sleeps with Penny or pulls his groin with Penny.

But he'd better not use his groin on Amy because Amy is not for Leonard.  She is for Sheldon.

[phantagrae]

As I've stated, I like Leonard. I was refering to my shock, that Sheldon would hit Leonard, after his date with Amy, and then saying 'how much he enjoyed it'. It seemed so out of character for Sheldon. But liking Leonard doesn't prevent me from seeing his weaknesses. His strengths, would outweigh, his weaknesses. Part of the problem here is that, some contributors, also don't have a working knowledge of psychology. To understand human relationships, one has to be willing to 'look under the surface', and be honest. The dogmatic, talk as if they work on the show. Please remind us again, what do you do on the show? Or are you just an 'interpreter' like the rest of us.

 

But one cannot make up psychological issues that are not made clear by the writers.

Although Leonard has indeed had many female partners under various circumstances, I don't think that the writers have intended to portray him as some kind of Lothario who goes around stealing women or randomly hitting on every female that he sees.

I think that it's obvious that the guys have all been unlucky in love and relationships and that's been the point of many of these incidents--and in Leonard's case, many of these women come on to him.  Being unlucky and not used to success with women, yeah, he's usually going to go along with it, but the point in the episodes is not to portray him as a sexual predator, but as someone that even when he does luck into a relationship, it doesn't turn out the way one would expect or the way he wants.  Despite the occasional one-night stand, he really wants a real relationship and since the person he really wants--Penny--has generally been out of reach for him, he's tried other relationships, with good and bad results.

 

Dr. Plimpton and Mrs. Latham, and even Dr. Stephanie, all threw themselves at him.  He and Priya seemed to have it good for a time, but she was ultimately controlling and then proved unfaithful.

 

But in all of the various women he dealt with, whether just hitting on them (which H & R do, or try to do, as well) or going out on the occasional date, the incidents were written and played for laughs or to show Leonard being unlucky, even when he gets lucky.

None of these relationships is designed to show Leonard as some kind of sexual predator.

[gaqo]

That doesn't mean that only her interpretation is correct.  She's kind of projecting certain traits onto Leonard that aren't necessarily there, including the issue of "neediness".

If Johnny Galecki had played Sheldon, who knows who they would have chosen to play Leonard.  Very probably not Jim.  Who knows if he was even interested in that role.  He was certainly interested in the Sheldon role and Johnny was more interested in the Leonard role, even though the Sheldon role had been suggested to him.

It doesn't mean that JP would have taken the role of Leonard.

 

And the idea of Leading Man and Leading Woman ending up together isn't a cliche, but is the definition of Leading Man/Woman.  If you're telling the story of how two people come together (and that's certainly part of the BBT over-arching story), then by definition, the two characters whose story you're telling are the Leading Man and Leading Woman.

 

If they had been telling the story of how Sheldon and Penny become a couple, then Sheldon would be the Leading Man--same "cliche" isn't it?

Because literary critcism opens up the text to interpretation, rather than limits it to writer intent, all interpretations are given value. I never said JP would be playing Leonard. As you know Johnny Galecki, is a long time friend and collaborator,  of Chuck Lorre. He comes up first in the credits, as star. I was suggesting that if he had taken the role of Sheldon, then it would be S/P. Just stating that they took the cliched, obvious route. It's only by looking at a text, from all the different perspectives, that one truely, comes to understand its potential meaning.  

[phantagrae]

Because literary critcism opens up the text to interpretation, rather than limits it to writer intent, all interpretations are given value. I never said JP would be playing Leonard. As you know Johnny Galecki, is a long time friend and collaborator,  of Chuck Lorre. He comes up first in the credits, as star. I was suggesting that if he had taken the role of Sheldon, then it would be S/P. Just stating that they took the cliched, obvious route. It's only by looking at a text, from all the different perspectives, that one truely, comes to understand its potential meaning.  

 

Even if Johnny had taken the role of Sheldon, they would still have gone with Leonard/Penny because that's the story they were telling, not Johnny Galecki as the love interest no matter which role he takes.

 

And again, if they had decided that Sheldon and Penny would get together, then Sheldon would have become the Leading Man and it would still have fallen into your so-called cliche.

 

I don't think you really know what you're talking about, despite your claims at supposedly deep literary criticism etc.

[gaqo]

But one cannot make up psychological issues that are not made clear by the writers.

Although Leonard has indeed had many female partners under various circumstances, I don't think that the writers have intended to portray him as some kind of Lothario who goes around stealing women or randomly hitting on every female that he sees.

I think that it's obvious that the guys have all been unlucky in love and relationships and that's been the point of many of these incidents--and in Leonard's case, many of these women come on to him.  Being unlucky and not used to success with women, yeah, he's usually going to go along with it, but the point in the episodes is not to portray him as a sexual predator, but as someone that even when he does luck into a relationship, it doesn't turn out the way one would expect or the way he wants.  Despite the occasional one-night stand, he really wants a real relationship and since the person he really wants--Penny--has generally been out of reach for him, he's tried other relationships, with good and bad results.

 

Dr. Plimpton and Mrs. Latham, and even Dr. Stephanie, all threw themselves at him.  He and Priya seemed to have it good for a time, but she was ultimately controlling and then proved unfaithful.

 

But in all of the various women he dealt with, whether just hitting on them (which H & R do, or try to do, as well) or going out on the occasional date, the incidents were written and played for laughs or to show Leonard being unlucky, even when he gets lucky.

None of these relationships is designed to show Leonard as some kind of sexual predator.

He doesn't 'randomly' hit on ever woman that he sees. His neediness, drives him to hit on almost every woman. A man who wasn't driven by neediness, would have said such statements as; I don't think its appropriate(you're my friend's sister)(isn't Howard interested in you), I'm in a relationship, you are my neighbour, let's be friends(i.e. we'll still have to see each other, if this ends badly). It's his very neediness, that these women are responding to. What got this topic going, was the idea, that L needs to take some time out, concentrate on L, and come back a stronger, less needy, less possessive,  ready for a relationship. A feminist critique of this show, would be very different, to what the writers intended, and would still be valid.  

[gaqo]

Even if Johnny had taken the role of Sheldon, they would still have gone with Leonard/Penny because that's the story they were telling, not Johnny Galecki as the love interest no matter which role he takes.

 

And again, if they had decided that Sheldon and Penny would get together, then Sheldon would have become the Leading Man and it would still have fallen into your so-called cliche.

 

I don't think you really know what you're talking about, despite your claims at supposedly deep literary criticism etc.

But Johnny galecki is the star/leading man. My interpretations are as valid as yours!

[Martin Pollard]

I don't think you really know what you're talking about, despite your claims at supposedly deep literary criticism etc.

You're just now catching on? Reminds me of a college punk who took a few literary classes and now thinks he's the leading expert in the field, and has deigned to descend from his Holy Mountain and impart his wisdom upon us unwashed, ignorant masses...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk

[phantagrae]

But Johnny galecki is the star/leading man. My interpretations are as valid as yours!

 

There are romantic lead actors and there are character actors, and really, all the guys on this show are character actors.

As far as "Leading Male"/"Leading Female" in terms of writing, the main male and female characters, especially in terms of romance, are the ones around whom the story revolves--in the case of the story they're telling, it's about Leonard and Penny.

In terms of who they would cast, they're not going to cast a traditional "leading man" (as in romantic lead) because it's the story of nerdy non-romantic lead types, which is something Johnny said appealed to him about playing the Leonard role--he'd never had the opportunity to play a romantic lead kind of character (because he's seen as a character actor.)

 

So, JG is indeed the romantic lead in the story because Leonard is intended to be the romantic lead character, but JG is not a traditional romantic lead kind of actor.  JG is a star insofar as the story revolves around Leonard and Penny and their romantic relationship (NOT Penny and Sheldon).

[gaqo]

You're just now catching on? Reminds me of a college punk who took a few literary classes and now thinks he's the leading expert in the field, and has deigned to descend from his Holy Mountain and impart his wisdom upon us unwashed, ignorant masses...

Barking!

[gaqo]

There are romantic lead actors and there are character actors, and really, all the guys on this show are character actors.

As far as "Leading Male"/"Leading Female" in terms of writing, the main male and female characters, especially in terms of romance, are the ones around whom the story revolves--in the case of the story they're telling, it's about Leonard and Penny.

In terms of who they would cast, they're not going to cast a traditional "leading man" (as in romantic lead) because it's the story of nerdy non-romantic lead types, which is something Johnny said appealed to him about playing the Leonard role--he'd never had the opportunity to play a romantic lead kind of character (because he's seen as a character actor.)

 

So, JG is indeed the romantic lead in the story because Leonard is intended to be the romantic lead character, but JG is not a traditional romantic lead kind of actor.  JG is a star insofar as the story revolves around Leonard and Penny and their romantic relationship (NOT Penny and Sheldon).

You're missing the obvious. Penny had the same attitude towards men, that L displays towards women. She also in the past, cared little, who they really were. So in that way L&P are suited. I don't think you should have refered to L as a predator. I certainly wasn't implying that. What we were trying to suggest is that for L/P to work, and last; L would need some growth time(preferably non-sexual and alone), and P would benefit from a strong platonic relationship with Sheldon. He is non-sexual at present, and she would have grown by enjoying a non sexual/intellectual relationship with him. Both L and S compete with each other. If L had time to grow, he would be less possessive, and allow P and S their mutually beneficial relationship. Juliet should have said 'no' to Romeo, it'll only end in tragedy! 

Edited June 11, 2013 by gaqo

[BangerMain]

Because literary critcism opens up the text to interpretation, rather than limits it to writer intent, all interpretations are given value. I never said JP would be playing Leonard. As you know Johnny Galecki, is a long time friend and collaborator,  of Chuck Lorre. He comes up first in the credits, as star. I was suggesting that if he had taken the role of Sheldon, then it would be S/P. Just stating that they took the cliched, obvious route. It's only by looking at a text, from all the different perspectives, that one truely, comes to understand its potential meaning.  

 

I think you meant to say L/P with some other actor playing Leonard and Johnny playing Sheldon.

[BangerMain]

You're missing the obvious. Penny had the same attitude towards men, that L displays towards women. She also in the past, cared little, who they really were. So in that way L&P are suited. I don't think you should have refered to L as a predator. I certainly wasn't implying that. What we were trying to suggest is that for L/P to work, and last; L would need some growth time(preferably non-sexual and alone), and P would benefit from a strong platonic relationship with Sheldon. He is non-sexual at present, and she would have grown by enjoying a non sexual/intellectual relationship with him. Both L and S compete with each other. If L had time to grow, he would be less possessive, and allow P and S their mutually beneficial relationship. Juliet should have said 'no' to Romeo, it'll only end in tragedy! 

 

Here's a little excersize you can use to prove your point about Leonard the "needy Cassonova": name all the women where Leonard has initiated a relationship.

[gaqo]

Read post 1002. His neediness is so obvious. I believe women see it, him, and his relationship with his mother, instanly!  It appears that they are coming on to him, but they've read the signs! I meant S/P, by the way, because Johnny Galecki is credited as the star.

[phantagrae]

You're missing the obvious. Penny had the same attitude towards men, that L displays towards women. She also in the past, cared little, who they really were. So in that way L&P are suited. I don't think you should have refered to L as a predator. I certainly wasn't implying that. What we were trying to suggest is that for L/P to work, and last; L would need some growth time(preferably non-sexual and alone), and P would benefit from a strong platonic relationship with Sheldon. He is non-sexual at present, and she would have grown by enjoying a non sexual/intellectual relationship with him. Both L and S compete with each other. If L had time to grow, he would be less possessive, and allow P and S their mutually beneficial relationship. Juliet should have said 'no' to Romeo, it'll only end in tragedy! 

 

But this is again based on the false assumption that the writers see Leonard as someone who needs to grow up and change or that Penny has anything to learn, especially about relationships, from Sheldon, that master of "I don't care what anyone else wants/needs as long as my needs are being met."  How is Penny going to learn anything from Sheldon when she has been the one teaching him how to behave in relationships--she basically the Shamy coach, teaching him how to treat Amy, how to tell her how he feels, etc.  Sheldon has always been the least mature of all of them, 99.9% of the time.

 

Penny and Leonard have learned about themselves and about their relationship from each other--and to some degree from their individual life experiences, both good and bad.

I think you're bending the characters over backward in order to justify you desire to somehow put Penny and Sheldon together more than they already are.

 

S & P are already platonic friends and Leonard and Penny are already bonded in their relationship, as are Sheldon and Amy.  There's nothing to be gained with trying to separate the couples or push S&P together in some artificial way except to somehow appease the Shenny crowd who can't figure out any other way to put them together than to make up crap about the characters that isn't true.

[rickfromillinois]

As I've stated, I like Leonard. I was refering to my shock, that Sheldon would hit Leonard, after his date with Amy, and then saying 'how much he enjoyed it'. It seemed so out of character for Sheldon. But liking Leonard doesn't prevent me from seeing his weaknesses. His strengths, would outweigh, his weaknesses. Part of the problem here is that, some contributors, also don't have a working knowledge of psychology. To understand human relationships, one has to be willing to 'look under the surface', and be honest. The dogmatic, talk as if they work on the show. Please remind us again, what do you do on the show? Or are you just an 'interpreter' like the rest of us.

To paraphrase the farmer after he cleaned out the cattle barn, what a load.   To claim that those who disagree with you aren't educated or smart enough to understand what is going on is bull fecal matter.   Most of Leanard's "conguests" are not because he pursued them, but they him.   Stephanie specifically told Leonard that Howard didn't have a chance with her.   What did Howard do, call "dibs".   That somehow made her off limits?   And Leonard should have turned Priya away because years before he had a "pinkey swear" with Howard.   Right.   Adults do that all of the time.   Complain about his interaction with Alex?   Really?  What did he do with her that was so terrible?  He felt flattered that she asked him out.   That's it.   What a dog.   Could it possibly be that Sheldon was upset because he was afraid that Ammy was attracted to him?   This is fiction.   Just maybe instead of over evaluating everything that the writers intend to convey, they mean exactly what the actors are portraying, and criticise the writers as much as you want, THEIR show is going into it's seventh season.   As Fraud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Martin Pollard]

To paraphrase the farmer after he cleaned out the cattle barn, what a load.   To claim that those who disagree with you aren't educated or smart enough to understand what is going on is bull fecal matter.

 

Exactly right. Gaqo might indeed have some valid points, but he comes across so arrogant and insulting that he ultimately makes anything he says not worth listening to, and attempts to hold rational discourse with him as successful as debating a brick wall. (See my post above, re: the "arrogant college puke who thinks that taking a few courses makes him an expert" type.) I've encountered more than my share of those types in a long online career (going all the way back to the BBS, FidoNet, and CompuServe days of the 1980s and 1990s), and it never ends well.

 

And no, gaqo, it's not because you're a Shenny. It's because you act like an arrogant, sanctionious jerk. If you're not one, then stop acting like one, and maybe people will start taking you seriously.

Edited June 11, 2013 by MJPollard

[BangerMain]

Read post 1002. His neediness is so obvious. I believe women see it, him, and his relationship with his mother, instantly!  It appears that they are coming on to him, but they've read the signs! I meant S/P, by the way, because Johnny Galecki is credited as the star.

Huh!?????

 

So the reason women almost always hit on Leonard (and not the other way around as you claimed in #1002) is they look at him across the room, as Alice did in the comic book store,  they receive a telepathic sign that he is needy and has a relationship with his mother. Wow.

 

If Johnny Galecki had played the part of Sheldon and started an off again, on again relationship with Penny, what you would have is "Leonard" with a different name. The character of Sheldon we know now would have the name of Leonard. As the producers have stated several times,  the premise of the show was about a nerd who is trying to make the transitions to the "normal" world because of his attraction to the beautiful neighbor next door. The nerd is also pulled back into the "Geek" world by his asexual, science only, roommate.

 

It does not matter what the names of the characters are, they are types that serve the purpose of the premise. If the name of the asexual roommate was Leonard, you would be called a "Lenny".

Edited June 12, 2013 by BangerMain

[gaqo]

Look I think this thread has just about run its course. Unless someone has a new angle. I don't mind those that, don't understand the subtelties of the language. Not many people, are as pedantic about the language they use as I am(and I still make mistakes). But it's frankly boring, because other people, misinterpret the obviously stated, and then hurl abuse, based on their misunderstanding. Just to clarify, Bangermain, couples get together through interaction. Looking at L, and the way he acts when a new woman comes close. It would be easier to list the signs, that don't scream, needy, desperate, and possessive. My other supposition, was based on the idea that the show was designed as a vehicle for JG, and when they got KC onboard, the arc of the show was envisioned. I was merely playing with this idea, and wondering how that arc would have progressed, had things been different. For example, if they had employed a feed back loop, and had modified the story, when they saw the interaction between JP and KC, and more importantly the audience reaction to it. Also JP has been rightly lauded, and awarded, for his comic acting ability. This may have prompted them to change the focus of the show. All supposition!