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5.24 The Countdown Reflection [Season Finale] (May 10)

How do you rate the episode?  

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  1. 1. How do you rate the episode?



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We do not have enough information to make statements such as he was unloved.

Leonard's father used to borrow his hugging machine. That might be a clue.:icon_biggrin: Unloved by his mother, at least.

Leonard grew up feeling rejected, unloved, and abused by his mother. This is THE defining characteristic of Leonard's psyche and the main source of all his issues. "At least your mother loved you", didn't Leonard say something like that to Sheldon? Remember that episode when Leonard went on a rant about his mommy issues?


But so far, Sheldon and Penny were loved, Leonard was abused. :icon_cheesygrin:

Penny's problem is that she has been loved too much.:icon_eek:

I agree, I think Penny was quite spoiled as a child. No feeling of responsibility whatsoever... :icon_lol:

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We do not have enough information to make statements such as he was unloved.

Leonard's father used to borrow his hugging machine. That might be a clue.:icon_biggrin: Unloved by his mother, at least.

Leonard grew up feeling rejected, unloved, and abused by his mother. This is THE defining characteristic of Leonard's psyche and the main source of all his issues. "At least your mother loved you", didn't Leonard say something like that to Sheldon? Remember that episode when Leonard went on a rant about his mommy issues?


But so far, Sheldon and Penny were loved, Leonard was abused. :icon_cheesygrin:

Penny's problem is that she has been loved too much.:icon_eek:

I agree, I think Penny was quite spoiled as a child. No feeling of responsibility whatsoever... :icon_lol:

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.:icon_lol:

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Leonard grew up feeling rejected, unloved, and abused by his mother. This is THE defining characteristic of Leonard's psyche and the main source of all his issues. "At least your mother loved you", didn't Leonard say something like that to Sheldon? Remember that episode when Leonard went on a rant about his mommy issues?

Yeah, the two basically said they wished they had the other's mother when they were growing up.

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I think people have forgotten that Penny's father wasn't perfect either. He wanted Penny to be a boy and treated her like one until she hit puberty. This obviously doesn't mean that he didn't love her, but seeing that Penny mentioned that he sent her a catcher's mitt for Christmas in Season 3, he still has underlying issues about it. This could be the reason for her experimenting with drugs (the bag of "potpourri"), sleeping around (it was mentioned twice that she took a pregnancy test when she was young), trying to sort out her identity through other men.

As for Mary Cooper, Sheldon mentioned once that she smokes in the car and kept it a secret from his dad. For an "upstanding Christian," this would stand to be a serious vice, probably a form of release for her for some kind of issue she's wrestling with. Not to mention the fight Sheldon described in Season 3 where his mom said Jesus would forgive her for putting ground glass into her husband's meatloaf, while Sheldon's dad skeet shoots his mom's collectible plates on the roof. The fighting clearly had an impact on Sheldon, since now he can't stand it when anyone fights. However, we do know for certain that his parents did love him in the many ways they've shown it.

In short, I think to say that their family lives are identical is seriously flawed. And to say that they're both loved doesn't mean that everything was hunky dory either. These two can't really be compared like that.

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However, we do know for certain that his [sheldon's] parents did love him in the many ways they've shown it.

We can only say his mom loved him. The show has given us zero information that would allow us to draw a conclusion on how much Sheldon's father loved him.

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you can have a mother that loves you very much and a father who abuses you every night. Hardly what anyone would call a loving family. As for Leonard, we do not know anything about his relationship with his father so you are assuming that he was unloved. We do not have enough information to make statements such as he was unloved.

Everything we SAW ON SCREEN so far - 1) Sheldon loved by his mother, meemaw, sister, and even his father (who taught him sports, for example), 2) Penny adored by her father, 3) Leonard mentally abused by his mother - are facts.

I'm talking about what we've seen on screen for five seasons.

What you're talking about are made up "could be" conjectures which we so far did NOT see on screen.

Maybe in the future seasons some new facts will be revealed about their families. Maybe the new seasons will reveal that Mary Cooper is a sociopath cleverly disguising her vile nature, that Leonard's mother is a sweetheart and what we saw on screen was a dream, and that Penny's mother beat her up every night. Whatever.

But so far, Sheldon and Penny were loved, Leonard was abused. :icon_cheesygrin:

You are trying to argue a position that you didn't originally take. I have said from the beginning that Sheldon was loved by his mother and sister. We don't know about his father since trying to teach him a sport is hardly proof of his love for him. YOU are the one who has jumped to conclusions based on your assumptions. My argument has been that we can't state some things are facts because we don't know nor have we been shown. YOU are the one who said that it is a FACT that Sheldon and Penny were raised in a loving family. My point was since we have not been told on the show how Sheldon's father or brother treated him or Penny's mother, sister, or brother, we can not realistically state that it is a FACT that they were raised in a loving family and then I gave you examples of possible occurrences where just because a parent or sibling loves a child, it does not mean that they were raised in a loving family. I did not say that it had happened or that those examples were facts. As I have REPEATEDLY stated, WE DON"T KNOW. We do not have enough information to state as a fact whether either Sheldon or Penny were raised in a loving family nor a dysfunctional one. I can only guess on how they were raised and that is all that you can do. What we can do is make some conclusions by how they and their siblings act. When 2 people argue Sheldon does something to drown out their voices to the point that he can't her them, pretend that he is a dimension where they can't see him, and is afraid to close his eyes in front of other people because they may hit him. We do know that this is at least partially due to his parents arguing in front of him and his sister telling him to close his eyes then hitting him. We also know that when Penny was talking to Leonard's mother about her father she was crying. Also that her sister shot her husband and her brother was involved in meth production. From that we can conclude that both of them had some family issues but cannot judge how serious they were. As for Leonard's father, we have had very little information about his relationship with Leonard and cannot say one way or the other.

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I don't think they had happy childhoods from what little we do know. Sheldon described growing up in Texas as 'hell'. He loves his family but his mother mollycoddles him way too much. He's failed to become a man, he's never had a sexual relationship and has problems communicating and sharing. I really like Sheldon's mother a lot but I think she stopped him developing. She rubs vapor rub on a 30 year old mans chest and sings baby songs to him. It's not helping. He needs to get away from being treated like a little boy and that's why Amy is so important. I really hope they don't get her to sing soft kitty. So far she talks to him like a grown up.

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I don't think they had happy childhoods from what little we do know. Sheldon described growing up in Texas as 'hell'. He loves his family but his mother mollycoddles him way too much. He's failed to become a man, he's never had a sexual relationship and has problems communicating and sharing. I really like Sheldon's mother a lot but I think she stopped him developing. She rubs vapor rub on a 30 year old mans chest and sings baby songs to him. It's not helping. He needs to get away from being treated like a little boy and that's why Amy is so important. I really hope they don't get her to sing soft kitty. So far she talks to him like a grown up.

I agree , amy is the only person that really treats sheldon as a man instead of a child.

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I don't think they had happy childhoods from what little we do know. Sheldon described growing up in Texas as 'hell'. He loves his family but his mother mollycoddles him way too much. He's failed to become a man, he's never had a sexual relationship and has problems communicating and sharing. I really like Sheldon's mother a lot but I think she stopped him developing. She rubs vapor rub on a 30 year old mans chest and sings baby songs to him. It's not helping. He needs to get away from being treated like a little boy and that's why Amy is so important. I really hope they don't get her to sing soft kitty. So far she talks to him like a grown up.

I agree , amy is the only person that really treats sheldon as a man instead of a child.

That's very true. And does he need it!

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In short, I think to say that their family lives are identical is seriously flawed. And to say that they're both loved doesn't mean that everything was hunky dory either. These two can't really be compared like that.

Who said their families were "identical"? What is seriously flawed is an argument which is based on something that was never said. :icon_cheesygrin:

To say they were both loved means just that - they were both loved. It's a simple thing. It's also a huge thing. Whether a person is loved or not as a child plays a big influence on his/her psyche. It's a very interesting factoid. Loving or abusive background is something that often informs who we are as people - it's certainly something that's very important to know if you want to understand what drives a person.

Why can't they be compared like that? People can be compared based on anything. Family background is actually one of the very fundamental things that can be easily compared.

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While I agree with the basic statements that both Sheldon and Penny had people in their families who loved them during their childhood, and both of them also had (different kinds of) childhood issues, I don't get the point of this discussion. The above description fits the vast majority of the population, I would think (including Howard and Raj). What does that prove about anything?

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You are trying to argue a position that you didn't originally take.

I'm arguing the exact position I took from the beginning. You're the one who's ignoring my main points and trying to nitpick linguistics in order to deny the basic truth of my very simple statement.

I told you once, but let me repeat - I am NOT a native English speaker. Hello! :icon_lol: I hope my posts are clear enough anyway, but if they aren't, I try to explain my meaning again, and again, and again... :icon_lol:

Since you're determined NOT to get it, let me rephrase my original meaning:

Growing up in a loving family = growing up feeling loved = being loved by your mother or dad or meemaw = having your closest family who are capable of love = having mother or father who demonstrate that they love you = knowing that your mother or father loves you = knowing that your mother or father does not despise and humiliate you = having a family who loves and supports you as their dearest beloved son or daughter = the opposite of Leonard's mother

Capish? :icon_wink::icon_lol:

P.S. In short, Sheldon and Penny = loving families, Leonard = abusive family. (Of those relatives that we SAW on screen.)

Should I perhaps draw a diagram? Would it help if I translate this into 4-5 additional languages? Sheesh! :icon_lol:


While I agree with the basic statements that both Sheldon and Penny had people in their families who loved them during their childhood, and both of them also had (different kinds of) childhood issues, I don't get the point of this discussion.

Me neither. I don't get the uproar. :icon_lol: I made a very simple observation - "hey, people keep saying there's nothing alike between Sheldon and Penny, but isn't it interesting how their emotional reaction in the finale was identical and their family backgrounds are similar" - and in response I get several pages of convulsing paranoid Lennies "OMG, no-no-no, don't say that!"... :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

Next time I'll post something like "oooh, Sheldon and Penny both love kittens", and see Lennies heads explode. 'Cause god knows we should NEVER, EVER say "Sheldon" and "Penny" in one sentence, unless we want to provoke vehement knee-jerk disagreement from the resident 'shippers.

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Penny's problem is that she has been loved too much.:icon_eek:

I agree, I think Penny was quite spoiled as a child. No feeling of responsibility whatsoever... :icon_lol:

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.:icon_lol:

Not everyone has such a dirty mind as you, sir. Some proper ladies have NO IDEA what you're talking about. None. Pffft. :icon_twisted:

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However, we do know for certain that his [sheldon's] parents did love him in the many ways they've shown it.

We can only say his mom loved him. The show has given us zero information that would allow us to draw a conclusion on how much Sheldon's father loved him.

We know for certain that Sheldon's dad consistently was trying to teach him football and get him to watch it until he went off to college, he taught him archery, and also how to shoot so close to a raccoon that it craps itself. To me, those sound like activities a father tries to have with his son to bond together. His father was also the one to assure his wife that "you have to take your time with Sheldon." Sounds like a man who cares for his son. Whether Sheldon saw that or not is not the point, we can safely say that both his parents loved him through these attempts.

In short, I think to say that their family lives are identical is seriously flawed. And to say that they're both loved doesn't mean that everything was hunky dory either. These two can't really be compared like that.

Who said their families were "identical"? What is seriously flawed is an argument which is based on something that was never said. :icon_cheesygrin:

To say they were both loved means just that - they were both loved. It's a simple thing. It's also a huge thing. Whether a person is loved or not as a child plays a big influence on his/her psyche. It's a very interesting factoid. Loving or abusive background is something that often informs who we are as people - it's certainly something that's very important to know if you want to understand what drives a person.

Why can't they be compared like that? People can be compared based on anything. Family background is actually one of the very fundamental things that can be easily compared.

What I meant to say was that "being loved" isn't binary. You're not just "loved" or "not loved." For example, like I was trying to explain before, we know that Penny's dad loved her, but there were still psychological issues behind it to the point that Penny cries when talking about it. Back in Season 1, before we met her father face to face, would we have thought her father truly loved her? Even with Leonard's mom, I'm sure she does love Leonard, but she just doesn't know how to express it in the conventional sense. She seemed bothered that Leonard didn't tell her he was dating Penny, why would a mother who doesn't care want to know things like that? Every family dynamic is different, and it's very difficult to say for certain people were loved/not loved in their families.

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What I meant to say was that "being loved" isn't binary. You're not just "loved" or "not loved."

I agree with you, especially if talking about real life. It's not all black and white.

While "loved" vs. "abused" can be very complicated, it can also be boiled down to the essence.

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We know for certain that Sheldon's dad consistently was trying to teach him football and get him to watch it until he went off to college

How does Sheldon remember that experience? Fun? That's exactly what my father said. "Come to the games, watch the games" week in and week out, from the time I was 5 until I went off the college. Longest 7 years of my life. "Alright Poindexter, sit down shut up and listen"

he taught him archery

And how does Sheldon remember that experience? The smell of cheap K-Mart bourbon.

and also how to shoot so close to a raccoon that it craps itself. To me, those sound like activities a father tries to have with his son to bond together. His father was also the one to assure his wife that "you have to take your time with Sheldon." Sounds like a man who cares for his son. Whether Sheldon saw that or not is not the point, we can safely say that both his parents loved him through these attempts.

I can agree he put effort in. I can also say Sheldon's father's efforts were in vain. If George did love Sheldon, Sheldon didn't feel it or know it. You say it's not the point, I disagree. If Sheldon doesn't know it, then it is irrelevant as far as the context of Sheldon growing up in a loving family. From his vantage point, he didn't.

And even still... George taught his son 3 things.... father of the year? Even an abusive father teaches his kids something along the way. My high school teacher taught me calculus. Does he love me? I totally see where you're coming from, I still IMO think it's a stretch to fill in the blank with "love" based on 3 anecdotal stories of something Sheldon's father taught him (one of which we know Sheldon didn't even want to learn). You've made the best case I've seen so far that he did love Sheldon though. =)

My parents took great lengths to hide their fighting from me when I was growing up. I was totally taken aback when they got a divorce when I was 18. I'd say if Sheldon's father really loved him, he wouldn't be on the roof blasting a shotgun while his wife is threatening to kill him while his son is freaking out hiding in his room.

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When speaking about his father, does Sheldon seem to remember him with fondness? Has he ever talked about any happy occurrences with his father? How about his brother? Does anyone remember him ever mentioning some happy event or pleasant memory of his family? How about Penny? When she talked about her father it mostly ends with her crying. Has she ever mentioned her mother? To the best of my memory the only time she mentioned her sister was to say that she shot her husband, and the only time she mentioned her brother was to say that he was involved with meth production.

If you want to compare Penny and Sheldon's childhoods, it might be allot easier to say that they seem to have come from dysfunctional families then to state that it is a fact that they both came from loving families.

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Actually they all come from rather dysfunctional families. Except perhaps Raj, but his parents seem to be pretty overbearing, which is quite typical of Indian parents, but still may be called a kind of dysfunction from the point of view of what effect it had on him. His selective mutism must be having at least part of its roots in his childhood.

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Actually they all come from rather dysfunctional families. Except perhaps Raj, but his parents seem to be pretty overbearing, which is quite typical of Indian parents, but still may be called a kind of dysfunction from the point of view of what effect it had on him. His selective mutism must be having at least part of its roots in his childhood.

He must have seen something that frightened him on "Take your son to work" day.

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Actually they all come from rather dysfunctional families. Except perhaps Raj, but his parents seem to be pretty overbearing, which is quite typical of Indian parents, but still may be called a kind of dysfunction from the point of view of what effect it had on him. His selective mutism must be having at least part of its roots in his childhood.

He must have seen something that frightened him on "Take your son to work" day.

If that was slang, I'm unfamiliar with it.

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Actually they all come from rather dysfunctional families. Except perhaps Raj, but his parents seem to be pretty overbearing, which is quite typical of Indian parents, but still may be called a kind of dysfunction from the point of view of what effect it had on him. His selective mutism must be having at least part of its roots in his childhood.

He must have seen something that frightened him on "Take your son to work" day.

If that was slang, I'm unfamiliar with it.

Think it through. The humor is out there.

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Its not slang. A current "feel good" trend in the US is Take Your Son/Daughter To Work Day. Supposed to be bonding experience for parents and their children. Maybe Raj saw something that traumitized him while at work with his father.

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Its not slang. A current "feel good" trend in the US is Take Your Son/Daughter To Work Day. Supposed to be bonding experience for parents and their children. Maybe Raj saw something that traumitized him while at work with his father.

Denis Kim knows all about take your daughter to work day.

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They are getting closer aren't they Disgusted?

Let's just say on take your son to work day - MY son has zero chance of seeing what Raj might have seen...

Someone missed someone else quoting AFF.

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