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I don't think that the show has declined in anyway.Just because one person feels that it has doesn't mean that most people will agree with it. E.G the views of TBBT has skyrocketed during season 5 because of the relationships. That's what most people want. To see. It keeps you hooked on and for me the relationship that does that the most is shamy. Sheldon has gone from an asexual robot to a character that is starting to display signs of feeling and affection.

If the show were to stay the same , people will eventually get bored if no developements were made. As long as the views keep on increasing , the writer of TBBT will continue to make relationship based episodes( and I don't think that is a bad thing)

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Here is my take, I don't know if other people who didn't like Fun with Flags will agree with me. For one thing, Sheldon has never mentioned in all 5 seasons that he has a deep interest in flags. The only time he ever mentioned a flag was when he made one for their apartment. To me, it sounded like the writers were thinking about what material to give Sheldon and went, "Hey, Sheldon mentioned he had a flag for their apartment, maybe we can write him in an episode where all he talks about is flags, because he clearly loves flags based on that one instance." And then he never mentions flags ever again after that. The OCDness of it was what his character would do, but why this subject? The costumes at the end also bothered me. While yes, Sheldon does wear costumes, that was always for cosplaying comic book characters and some such. The costumes he and Amy wore for Fun with Flags was just for cheap laughs from the writers, as in, "Ha ha, look how extreme they've gotten with their podcast! Don't they look ridiculous?!"

Best way to describe it, it showed Sheldon's personality, but not his character.

I did not find anything wrong in showing Sheldon having an interest in flags in one episode but not before or after. Since we only see so much of them on-screen, many things about them can come up apparently out of the blue for one storyline, and it's reasonable to assume that it was there but we just didn't get to see that particular interest or activity earlier because it wasn't relevant to previous on-screen events. That itself doesn't make it out of character.

For example, Sheldon went crazy over the graphene problem, but we never heard of it again. Or his love of trains, or his love of monkeys, or his suddenly learning Finnish - they've all got one-off mentions. The idea is that Sheldon has a number of offbeat, quirky interests. This one, at least, had an on-screen precedent in his making the apartment flag (which does indicate a sufficient degree of interest in the concept). Also, he has a fetish for knowledge/information of all kinds.

I agree that the dressing-up scene at the end was purely for laughs, and can be seen as over-the-top by some. What I enjoyed about that scene was Leonard's expression as he hurriedly made his exit. :)

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Yeah, but it was so bad!. It did seem like they rushed fun with flags together, maybe they were too busy working on L/P beta test storyline which was the main plot but fun with flags was just so awkward it stuck out. I'm not fond of Sheldon in silly outfits myself. Unless he's a superhero… or the doppler effect. I could totally wear that doppler outfit. In fact I will make one for my next fancy dress event and see if anyone twigs who I am. :icon_lol:

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Yeah, but it was so bad!. It did seem like they rushed fun with flags together, maybe they were too busy working on L/P beta test storyline which was the main plot but fun with flags was just so awkward it stuck out. I'm not fond of Sheldon in silly outfits myself. Unless he's a superhero… or the doppler effect. I could totally wear that doppler outfit. In fact I will make one for my next fancy dress event and see if anyone twigs who I am. :icon_lol:

Are you also okay with Sheldon as Wonder Woman? ;)

That sounds like a good idea. You may have to try 'yeeean'. :D

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Twelve seconds into the pilot (only slightly exaggerating) Leonard begins pining for Penny. And NOW people are complaining that there is romantic undertones to the storylines? Give me a break.

If that was the issue, you would have left the show long ago...

What I feel might be the real issue here is SHELDON and his feelings getting stronger for Amy. That has many Sheldon fans upset. I'm not an enormous Sheldon fan, but I get it - those who are big fans are worried. It's new ground for the character and a huge change.

But I say "Boldly Go Sheldon Cooper!"

The writers (wonderful in 5 seasons somfar) could do this brilliantly. Shamy will have many, MANY more awkward moments, many hilarious scenes together due to their inexperience and self built anti-social fortresses. Relax!!!! They aren't jumping in the sack in the S6 premier. What about kissing as an experiment? Recording data, etc. or merely sleeping in the same room with all types of electrodes measuring their brains and vital signs. Write a paper on the findings, that sort of stuff. Explore the relationship exactly how those two would be expected to continue. It's going to happen one way or another. S1/2/3 Sheldon is no more...

There was no character like Sheldon on Frasier, Friends, etc. he won't turn into Chandler or Niles overnight.

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I found Fun with Flags in character and funny.

Sheldon getting excited over some boring factoid and wanting to share it with the masses? Check. Sheldon misjudging the potential level of interest of anyone who is not him? Check. Sheldon being absolutely clueless about how ridiculous he's coming across? Check. :icon_lol:

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But I say "Boldly Go Sheldon Cooper!"

The writers (wonderful in 5 seasons somfar) could do this brilliantly. Shamy will have many, MANY more awkward moments, many hilarious scenes together due to their inexperience and self built anti-social fortresses. Relax!!!! They aren't jumping in the sack in the S6 premier. What about kissing as an experiment? Recording data, etc. or merely sleeping in the same room with all types of electrodes measuring their brains and vital signs. Write a paper on the findings, that sort of stuff. Explore the relationship exactly how those two would be expected to continue. It's going to happen one way or another. S1/2/3 Sheldon is no more...

I love this idea. I've been waiting for a long time for another Herb Garden-like experiment by this couple of weirdos - and what better way to experiment, now, than on themselves and their own confusing emotional stirrings?

I can already imagine Sheldon and Amy lying side by side, electrodes attached to their heads, solemnly taking notes. :D

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I don't think that the show has declined in anyway.Just because one person feels that it has doesn't mean that most people will agree with it. E.G the views of TBBT has skyrocketed during season 5 because of the relationships. That's what most people want. To see. It keeps you hooked on and for me the relationship that does that the most is shamy. Sheldon has gone from an asexual robot to a character that is starting to display signs of feeling and affection.

If the show were to stay the same , people will eventually get bored if no developements were made. As long as the views keep on increasing , the writer of TBBT will continue to make relationship based episodes( and I don't think that is a bad thing)

It isn't just one person that feels it's declining, there are many, many people who feel that way. You may like the changes in Sheldon but IMO he was much funnier as an asexual robot than a lovestruck goofball which is the direction he's heading. Yes the ratings are going up because lots of people love the relationship stuff. But it changes the original premise of the show. If you like that, fine, but many don't. It's just a matter of taste.

But some of the best sitcoms ever had very little changes to characters throughout their run - Seinfeld, Fraiser, Everyone Loves Raymond, Simpsons, etc. To quote Sheldon himself, " No, it's not going to be fine. Change is never fine. They say it is, but it's not."

I think you know that the show's producers are not taking TBBT back to the cult hit status that it had in seasons one and two. They love all those new fans that have made the show a breakout smash in season 5 all the way to number one in the ratings for sitcoms. But as you said its just a matter of taste.

But as to the matter of shows that were true to their premise throughout their run, only Seinfeld in your examples can make that claim. Fraiser's characters had so many changes (Marriages, pregnancies, divorces) that the only real constant was Fraiser's inevitable failure at relationships. Everyone loves Raymond was just another cookie cutter family-based comedy like 800 others before and The Simpsons was a cartoon where the characters never aged a year, it was supposed to be surreal, like almost every cartoon made in the last 80 years.

Seinfeld was the special case by the will of co-creator Larry David who was determine to show no growth in the characters, ever. I remember the uproar that occurred when George (David's alter-ego) prepared to marry his long suffering girl friend, Susan. The fans who came late to the party assumed that this was the relationship growth that they came to believe all sitcoms were about. David delivered the coup to their hopes by killing off Susan in that season's ender and had the gang go out to dinner as if nothing had happened. All hell broke loose on fan sites, entertainment editorials and critical forums as the fans who bought in to the original premise were relieved and many new fans were appalled. David gave his critics the finger again when he came back to write the controversial final two part episode in which the foursome were put on trail for crimes against "humanity", found guilty and sentenced to jail and began to talk about the inanities in their personally lives in the jail cell proving they had learned nothing.

TBBT is not anything like Seinfeld in the fact that the producers want you to like the main characters and root for their happiness. The Seinfeld foursome were purposely designed to be shallow, self-absorbed and petty Manhattenites consumed by the minutiae in their own life (the infamous show about "Nothing") who cared not a wit about anyone else. I don't think anyone could pull off such a show now and get it to number one in the ratings.

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Here is my take, I don't know if other people who didn't like Fun with Flags will agree with me. For one thing, Sheldon has never mentioned in all 5 seasons that he has a deep interest in flags. The only time he ever mentioned a flag was when he made one for their apartment. To me, it sounded like the writers were thinking about what material to give Sheldon and went, "Hey, Sheldon mentioned he had a flag for their apartment, maybe we can write him in an episode where all he talks about is flags, because he clearly loves flags based on that one instance." And then he never mentions flags ever again after that. The OCDness of it was what his character would do, but why this subject? The costumes at the end also bothered me. While yes, Sheldon does wear costumes, that was always for cosplaying comic book characters and some such. The costumes he and Amy wore for Fun with Flags was just for cheap laughs from the writers, as in, "Ha ha, look how extreme they've gotten with their podcast! Don't they look ridiculous?!"

Best way to describe it, it showed Sheldon's personality, but not his character.

I did not find anything wrong in showing Sheldon having an interest in flags in one episode but not before or after. Since we only see so much of them on-screen, many things about them can come up apparently out of the blue for one storyline, and it's reasonable to assume that it was there but we just didn't get to see that particular interest or activity earlier because it wasn't relevant to previous on-screen events. That itself doesn't make it out of character.

For example, Sheldon went crazy over the graphene problem, but we never heard of it again. Or his love of trains, or his love of monkeys, or his suddenly learning Finnish - they've all got one-off mentions. The idea is that Sheldon has a number of offbeat, quirky interests. This one, at least, had an on-screen precedent in his making the apartment flag (which does indicate a sufficient degree of interest in the concept). Also, he has a fetish for knowledge/information of all kinds.

I agree that the dressing-up scene at the end was purely for laughs, and can be seen as over-the-top by some. What I enjoyed about that scene was Leonard's expression as he hurriedly made his exit. :)

While you are correct about Sheldon fixating on random things, Fun with Flags was something that he supposedly had planned a year's worth of material for. To be that dedicated to something but not have any background information from the show just didn't sit right for me. The graphene problem was as a whole a physics problem, and we know that he's constantly thinking about that since it's part of his job. He no longer was thinking about the graphene issue because he solved it, as is with any physics topic he would be thinking of at the time. It was also mentioned in several episodes that he likes trains, so there is premise for that, but I'm not sure about the monkeys. As for things like learning Finnish, it's something he quickly picked up when he was formatting his hard drives. As he said, "Once I learn Finnish, I'm not going to learn Finnish again." It's a passing thing for him, and he certain didn't dedicate a whole year's worth of material to learn it.

Truth be told though, the Bavarian get-up at the end bothered me much more than the Fun with Flags segment itself.

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But I say "Boldly Go Sheldon Cooper!"

The writers (wonderful in 5 seasons somfar) could do this brilliantly.  Shamy will have many, MANY more awkward moments, many hilarious scenes together due to their inexperience and self built anti-social fortresses.  Relax!!!!  They aren't jumping in the sack in the S6 premier.  What about kissing as an experiment?  Recording data, etc. or merely sleeping in the same room with all types of electrodes measuring their brains and vital signs.  Write a paper on the findings, that sort of stuff. Explore the relationship exactly how those two would be expected to continue.  It's going to happen one way or another. S1/2/3 Sheldon is no more... 

I love this idea. I've been waiting for a long time for another Herb Garden-like experiment by this couple of weirdos - and what better way to experiment, now, than on themselves and their own confusing emotional stirrings?

I can already imagine Sheldon and Amy lying side by side, electrodes attached to their heads, solemnly taking notes. :D

That might have worked with the original Amy who was a female version of Sheldon. But last season they changed her into a creepy, love-starved psycho.

Still think they should check serotonin levels. That would be a big indicator. 

Djvang - maybe but she's more patient than most. I think the cat might be right. I don't see any coitus in season 6 either. Could be wrong but this seems to be the approach. 


Yeah, but it was so bad!. It did seem like they rushed fun with flags together, maybe they were too busy working on L/P beta test storyline which was the main plot but fun with flags was just so awkward it stuck out. I'm not fond of Sheldon in silly outfits myself. Unless he's a superhero… or the doppler effect. I could totally wear that doppler outfit. In fact I will make one for my next fancy dress event and see if anyone twigs who I am. :icon_lol:

Are you also okay with Sheldon as Wonder Woman? ;)

That sounds like a good idea. You may have to try 'yeeean'. :D

Haha, I am. Damn you Pomita ! :icon_lol:

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While you are correct about Sheldon fixating on random things, Fun with Flags was something that he supposedly had planned a year's worth of material for. To be that dedicated to something but not have any background information from the show just didn't sit right for me. The graphene problem was as a whole a physics problem, and we know that he's constantly thinking about that since it's part of his job. He no longer was thinking about the graphene issue because he solved it, as is with any physics topic he would be thinking of at the time. It was also mentioned in several episodes that he likes trains, so there is premise for that, but I'm not sure about the monkeys. As for things like learning Finnish, it's something he quickly picked up when he was formatting his hard drives. As he said, "Once I learn Finnish, I'm not going to learn Finnish again." It's a passing thing for him, and he certain didn't dedicate a whole year's worth of material to learn it.

Truth be told though, the Bavarian get-up at the end bothered me much more than the Fun with Flags segment itself.

Those are good points. Perhaps I too would have found it more consistent if he were to do a podcast about trains, but they had already played out his train-love enough in Pulled Groin Extrapolation!

I still think there was nothing out-of-character about his podcast, but it's true that he never displayed that level of flag interest (or flag knowledge) before or after that. It's still true that this is the kind of interest he very well could have. As opposed to, for example, suddenly showing him having a long-standing passion for bungee jumping. :)


But I say "Boldly Go Sheldon Cooper!"

The writers (wonderful in 5 seasons somfar) could do this brilliantly. Shamy will have many, MANY more awkward moments, many hilarious scenes together due to their inexperience and self built anti-social fortresses. Relax!!!! They aren't jumping in the sack in the S6 premier. What about kissing as an experiment? Recording data, etc. or merely sleeping in the same room with all types of electrodes measuring their brains and vital signs. Write a paper on the findings, that sort of stuff. Explore the relationship exactly how those two would be expected to continue. It's going to happen one way or another. S1/2/3 Sheldon is no more...

I love this idea. I've been waiting for a long time for another Herb Garden-like experiment by this couple of weirdos - and what better way to experiment, now, than on themselves and their own confusing emotional stirrings?

I can already imagine Sheldon and Amy lying side by side, electrodes attached to their heads, solemnly taking notes.

That might have worked with the original Amy who was a female version of Sheldon. But last season they changed her into a creepy, love-starved psycho.

This particular 'creepy, love starved psycho' clearly still has a penchant for psychological experiments. On the lines of Ebbinghaus' memory conditioning techniques, for example. :D

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Amy being a "love starved paycho" would make the experimentation work even BETTER from a writer and viewers perspective. She might be tempted to break away from the rigid science/setup and would have to fight that. If she did, Sheldon would put her back in her place, reminding her and by extension the Sheldon-it's viewers crying every episode that he's no ordinary guy with a girlfriend.

He's still a nut job!

Wins all around...

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Amy being a "love starved paycho" would make the experimentation work even BETTER from a writer and viewers perspective. She might be tempted to break away from the rigid science/setup and would have to fight that. If she did, Sheldon would put her back in her place, reminding her and by extension the Sheldon-it's viewers crying every episode that he's no ordinary guy with a girlfriend.

He's still a nut job!

Wins all around...

Great point.

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Overall, as long as the ratings are good, they are not going to change the present direction of the show. There may be many who dislike it but there seem to be a whole lot more who do and tune in to watch the episodes.

I won't be too sure about that. The show was renewed to season 7 only in January of 2011. The ratings were very good then. This was half way through season 4 and I maintain that that was at the same time that they retooled the show to appeal to the mainstream audience.

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Who knows what will happen. Maybe the show will continue to be popular enough, and it will get more seasons. More likely, there will be new competing shows that will become the next best thing, and the show will be cancelled after 7 seasons. In any case, 7 seasons is pretty darn good.

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Overall, as long as the ratings are good, they are not going to change the present direction of the show. There may be many who dislike it but there seem to be a whole lot more who do and tune in to watch the episodes.

I won't be too sure about that. The show was renewed to season 7 only in January of 2011. The ratings were very good then. This was half way through season 4 and I maintain that that was at the same time that they retooled the show to appeal to the mainstream audience.

Nope. The show was retooled in season 3. That's when it became a heavy dose of L/P's relationship starting in episode 1, Bernadette being added in ep 5 and Amy coming on board in ep 23.

The rating positions jumped from 59th in season 1 to 44th in season 2 to 12th after season 3. A lot of that can be accounted for not just about the changes in the show itself but in how it was slotted. Chuck Lorre had it placed after the then #1 comedy, Two and a Half Men, to make sure a lot of new eyeballs would see his revamped show.

CBS felt confident enough about the new product to have it lead off it's Thursday night line-up for season 4, where it dipped slightly in the ratings but has soared to the top during season 5.

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Overall, as long as the ratings are good, they are not going to change the present direction of the show. There may be many who dislike it but there seem to be a whole lot more who do and tune in to watch the episodes.

I won't be too sure about that. The show was renewed to season 7 only in January of 2011. The ratings were very good then. This was half way through season 4 and I maintain that that was at the same time that they retooled the show to appeal to the mainstream audience.

Nope. The show was retooled in season 3. That's when it became a heavy dose of L/P's relationship starting in episode 1, Bernadette being added in ep 5 and Amy coming on board in ep 23.

The rating positions jumped from 59th in season 1 to 44th in season 2 to 12th after season 3. A lot of that can be accounted for not just about the changes in the show itself but in how it was slotted. Chuck Lorre had it placed after the then #1 comedy, Two and a Half Men, to make sure a lot of new eyeballs would see his revamped show.

CBS felt confident enough about the new product to have it lead off it's Thursday night line-up for season 4, where it dipped slightly in the ratings but has soared to the top during season 5.

This is interesting. We don't often talk about the introduction of Bernie as the start of big change but I guess it was. Amy was only added in the final scene of the last episode. Did they intend her to be a permanent new character at that point?

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Once it has been done it will difficult to undo it. What are the chances that they will have Bernadette divorce Howard or have her die? What are the chances that Amy will find someone else and leave? I think that the answers to both are that the chances are very slim. How about Priya coming back and Leonard dumps Penny to be with her or Penny deciding to move back to Nebraska? How about Penny and Leonard deciding that they really should be just friends, break up, and start seeing other people, again? It don't think it's going to happen.

This is where the creators and writers wanted the show to go, and the ratings show that TBBT is doing very well especially for a show going into it's 6th season, which means that the Network is happy with where it is at and so are most of the fans.

In the end the question is if the show had declined, which I don't believe is the case, has the show declined so much that people have stopped watching it and for the most part the answer is no.

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By the time a show is cancelled, it's too late. First you start losing quality, then viewership, then you get cancelled. For any show to last through 7 seasons without a decline in quality would be an amazing feat.

But even if we never get another season just as much fun as seasons 1-3, it doesn't mean the new seasons will be total crap. Maybe not as shiny and new and exciting, but still pretty good. I'd be okay with a "good enough".

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Melissa and/or Mayim could decide to leave the show. I don't know their contract status. I believe the other main cast are all under contract through season 7. The departure of either, or both, would take TBBT in a new direction. Could be a good thing, or we could end up on here writing about how we wish for the good old days of season 5.

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Once it has been done it will difficult to undo it. What are the chances that they will have Bernadette divorce Howard or have her die? What are the chances that Amy will find someone else and leave? I think that the answers to both are that the chances are very slim. How about Priya coming back and Leonard dumps Penny to be with her or Penny deciding to move back to Nebraska? How about Penny and Leonard deciding that they really should be just friends, break up, and start seeing other people, again? It don't think it's going to happen.

This is where the creators and writers wanted the show to go, and the ratings show that TBBT is doing very well especially for a show going into it's 6th season, which means that the Network is happy with where it is at and so are most of the fans.

In the end the question is if the show had declined, which I don't believe is the case, has the show declined so much that people have stopped watching it and for the most part the answer is no.

That's very true. I would say the show is flying high at this time, in terms of viewership, ratings, popularity and awards nominations. Season 4 was the first time it got an Emmy nod. Season 5 is the first time they are America's No.1 comedy.

What does 'decline in quality' mean, exactly? I believe that for the vast majority of viewers, there is only one criterion for a comedy show to be called good. It does not need to have science/geekiness, it does not need to have relationships/character evolution, it just needs to be FUNNY. It has to entertain.

There may be valid-from-a-certain-point-of-view complaints like 'it has too much relationships now' or 'there's not enough sciency humor now' or 'the characters are changing'. What cannot be an objective criticism by any standards is 'it has become unfunny'. If it's at the top of the popularity scale right now, it means that the vast majority of people find it funny. Since humor itself is subjective, there is no scale to measure the amount of entertainment a comedy show provides other than its success and acclaim. And if it comes out in flying colors on that scale, it means the show is doing its job well, irrespective of individual opinions.


Melissa and/or Mayim could decide to leave the show. I don't know their contract status. I believe the other main cast are all under contract through season 7. The departure of either, or both, would take TBBT in a new direction. Could be a good thing, or we could end up on here writing about how we wish for the good old days of season 5.

It would be very interesting to see that happen. However, even this temptation is not enough for me to wish them gone!

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Once it has been done it will difficult to undo it. What are the chances that they will have Bernadette divorce Howard or have her die? What are the chances that Amy will find someone else and leave? I think that the answers to both are that the chances are very slim. How about Priya coming back and Leonard dumps Penny to be with her or Penny deciding to move back to Nebraska? How about Penny and Leonard deciding that they really should be just friends, break up, and start seeing other people, again? It don't think it's going to happen.

This is where the creators and writers wanted the show to go, and the ratings show that TBBT is doing very well especially for a show going into it's 6th season, which means that the Network is happy with where it is at and so are most of the fans.

In the end the question is if the show had declined, which I don't believe is the case, has the show declined so much that people have stopped watching it and for the most part the answer is no.

That's very true. I would say the show is flying high at this time, in terms of viewership, ratings, popularity and awards nominations. Season 4 was the first time it got an Emmy nod. Season 5 is the first time they are America's No.1 comedy.

What does 'decline in quality' mean, exactly? I believe that for the vast majority of viewers, there is only one criterion for a comedy show to be called good. It does not need to have science/geekiness, it does not need to have relationships/character evolution, it just needs to be FUNNY. It has to entertain.

There may be valid-from-a-certain-point-of-view complaints like 'it has too much relationships now' or 'there's not enough sciency humor now' or 'the characters are changing'. What cannot be an objective criticism by any standards is 'it has become unfunny'. If it's at the top of the popularity scale right now, it means that the vast majority of people find it funny. Since humor itself is subjective, there is no scale to measure the amount of entertainment a comedy show provides other than its success and acclaim. And if it comes out in flying colors on that scale, it means the show is doing its job well, irrespective of individual opinions.


You're right in that "funny" is a purely subjective term. I found the science/geekiness humor to be funny as well as refreshing and unique among sitcoms. I just don't find relationship humor to either funny, refreshing or unique. It's been done thousands of times. The writers have decided to go the route of maximizing ratings, which is understandable, but disappointing to those of us who loved the originality of the show. It's a matter of personal taste.

I agree that probably more people 'get' relationship humor than science-oriented humor. That doesn't make it superior or inferior, it just means more people are interested in the characters and their relationships.

Perhaps the issue of uniqueness or staleness doesn't bother me because I've hardly ever watched any other sitcom in my life. (Have tried a few - Friends, HIMYM, Community, Modern Family - but it doesn't seem to work. I can't keep at it).

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