Jump to content

Leonard Should Go Out With......


HeWolf
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 56
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Sure, lets trash Penny's character some more. First make her sleep with Raj, next make her chase Leonard.

What she needs in more self-respect, not less.

In what way is that "trashing" Penny? Most on this thread agree that one of the main problems that has been noticed in the Leonard and Penny relationship is that Penny takes Leonard for granted. The basis for that belief is some of the statements that Penny has made that would indicate that she believes that Leonard is lucky to be with her and could never find someone better. Emotionally, Penny is a parasite. She takes but gives nothing back emotionally in return.

If Penny needs that kind of relationship in order to bolster her "self respect", then she is a very troubled and sad individual. Anyone who needs to bolster their self respect at the expense of the one they are with should never be with anyone. If your characterization is correct then Leonard should run, not walk, run as far from her as he can get.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the OP. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Leonard should immediately leave Penny and find someone else, but it's quite clear that he's being taken for granted and it's not a healthy dynamics. I do believe that the show intends for them to be endgame, and in that case, it's important that they show the degree of attachment and respect and emotional investment from Penny's side, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, lets trash Penny's character some more. First make her sleep with Raj, next make her chase Leonard.

What she needs in more self-respect, not less.

In what way is that "trashing" Penny?

"Trashing" a character means making that character do things which are demeaning and bad for them and which would make that character devolve into something worse instead of evolving into something better.

IMO, only very sad and pathetic girls with little self-respect ever chase guys. To make Penny chase Leonard - as you keep suggesting - is to trash her character. Sleeping with Raj was bad enough, she doesn't need to chase Leonard on top of it.

Btw, I've been saying all along that the current Lenny relationship is unhealthy and bad for BOTH of them. It's bad for Leonard, but it's just as equally bad for Penny.

So no, she doesn't need this relationship in its current form to bolster her self-esteem - but neither does she need an additional humiliation and devolment into feeling completely pathetic and worthless so that she starts "chasing" Leonard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest I'm not dead Cheryl

Sure, lets trash Penny's character some more. First make her sleep with Raj, next make her chase Leonard.

What she needs in more self-respect, not less.

In what way is that "trashing" Penny?

"Trashing" a character means making that character do things which are demeaning and bad for them and which would make that character devolve into something worse instead of evolving into something better.

IMO, only very sad and pathetic girls with little self-respect ever chase guys. To make Penny chase Leonard - as you keep suggesting - is to trash her character. Sleeping with Raj was bad enough, she doesn't need to chase Leonard on top of it.

Btw, I've been saying all along that the current Lenny relationship is unhealthy and bad for BOTH of them. It's bad for Leonard, but it's just as equally bad for Penny.

So no, she doesn't need this relationship in its current form to bolster her self-esteem - but neither does she need an additional humiliation and devolment into feeling completely pathetic and worthless so that she starts "chasing" Leonard.

I don't think that Penny finally realizing what she actually wants & working to get it is demeaning at all. IMO going after what she wants would be great and a sign of growing (But ONLY after she is sure of what she wants, not like last season when she moped around all the time and when Leonard is free, she is magically not interested anymore.. it does't make much sense)

I don't agree at all with the following statement "only very sad and pathetic girls with little self-respect ever chase guys". This is the 21st century, any woman is allowed to go after what she wants, and if it is a guy, what's wrong with that? It takes a strong and confident woman to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't agree at all with the following statement "only very sad and pathetic girls with little self-respect ever chase guys". This is the 21st century, any woman is allowed to go after what she wants, and if it is a guy, what's wrong with that? It takes a strong and confident woman to do so.

Stong and confident women do NOT chase guys. A guy either wants you or he doesn't. If he doesn't, chasing him and trying to change his mind will make you a doormat. That's not the road to happiness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that Penny finally realizing what she actually wants & working to get it is demeaning at all. IMO going after what she wants would be great and a sign of growing (But ONLY after she is sure of what she wants, not like last season when she moped around all the time and when Leonard is free, she is magically not interested anymore.. it does't make much sense)

This is another case of writers Terrified To Get The Couple Together. Hollywood writers in general are all so afraid of trying to write a relationship without the will they/won't they sexual tension still playing a part that they reach for increasingly poor excuses to prolong the chase. It works to a point, but more often than not, it just gets old and/or baffling, as in this case - didn't Penny already have the realization that she made a mistake letting Leonard go? Why is she still having second thoughts about her feelings for him? It makes no sense because it's plot device, nothing more.

I don't agree at all with the following statement "only very sad and pathetic girls with little self-respect ever chase guys". This is the 21st century, any woman is allowed to go after what she wants, and if it is a guy, what's wrong with that? It takes a strong and confident woman to do so.

Preach it, sister. :) I'm with you - waiting for a man to overcome his fear of rejection is sometimes a very long wait. Might as well get out there and risk it ourselves. (I'd think men would be happy with this development, as it puts less onus on them for always feeling like they have to make the move?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't agree at all with the following statement "only very sad and pathetic girls with little self-respect ever chase guys". This is the 21st century, any woman is allowed to go after what she wants, and if it is a guy, what's wrong with that? It takes a strong and confident woman to do so.

Stong and confident women do NOT chase guys. A guy either wants you or he doesn't. If he doesn't, chasing him and trying to change his mind will make you a doormat. That's not the road to happiness.

So strong and confident women wait by the phone hoping that the guy that they like calls them? And this is different from the demure and meek woman who sits by the phone hoping that the guy they like will call them, in what way?

I thought that if a strong and confident woman saw a guy that they liked they didn't have a problem with telling them so and asking them out.

So if you are a guy and a girl actually asks you out that means that she lacks self confidence? Guy's across the country want to know because right now we don't know what to think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that Penny finally realizing what she actually wants & working to get it is demeaning at all. IMO going after what she wants would be great and a sign of growing (But ONLY after she is sure of what she wants, not like last season when she moped around all the time and when Leonard is free, she is magically not interested anymore.. it does't make much sense)

This is another case of writers Terrified To Get The Couple Together. Hollywood writers in general are all so afraid of trying to write a relationship without the will they/won't they sexual tension still playing a part that they reach for increasingly poor excuses to prolong the chase. It works to a point, but more often than not, it just gets old and/or baffling, as in this case - didn't Penny already have the realization that she made a mistake letting Leonard go? Why is she still having second thoughts about her feelings for him? It makes no sense because it's plot device, nothing more.

Well said!. For me, it's obvious that they are trying to drag the uncertainty regarding their relationship as long as they can, but they are not managing this situation very wisely.

In an article about the season's ending I read, I think it was Prady who said that Penny not accepting Leonard's proposal wasn't about not loving him enough, but about wanting to have a personal realization before fully commiting, that she is younger than him and she wants to achieve personal triumphs as well.

I find this notion very interesting, and good for the development of the character of Penny, but I'd like it were expressed in a clearer manner in the show instead of just making her run away from him without further explanations. If they don't want her to tell him directly about her feelings (even when they should), okay, now she has two girlfriends to whom she could open up and talk, thus, letting us, the audience, to also know and understand her better.

I don't agree at all with the following statement "only very sad and pathetic girls with little self-respect ever chase guys". This is the 21st century, any woman is allowed to go after what she wants, and if it is a guy, what's wrong with that? It takes a strong and confident woman to do so.

Preach it, sister. :) I'm with you - waiting for a man to overcome his fear of rejection is sometimes a very long wait. Might as well get out there and risk it ourselves. (I'd think men would be happy with this development, as it puts less onus on them for always feeling like they have to make the move?)

Preach it twice sisters!

Totally agree.

Specially because it's not a B&W situation, but of shades of gray. A girl has all the right to make the move, to let a guy know she is interested in him. He responds? cool. He is not interested? okay, move on. I don't feel it as a thing of great shame to do.

Besides, in this particular case, it's not about Penny going after Leonard begging him to love her, to date her. They are not in that phase anymore, they both know they like each other and that they are both interested in trying to have a relationship. Problem is, Penny likes to act as if she were doing Leonard the biggest honor of his life by dating him, and that's untrue and very unfair.

One of my theories on this is, it's all out of her own insecurities.

After their break up and Priya, she realized Leonard was more than capable to have another relationship and to get a beautiful and interesting woman. She was carrying this kind of inferiority feelings since they dated the first time, she feels insecure because of her lack of education and sucess in professional life. Besides, she herself seems to aknowledge as her biggest asset her physical beauty, and uses it accordingly, but now that she is aware that Leonard is not the same desperate guy that never had a girlfriend before, she seemed to have lifted up her defenses. Maybe one of those defense mechanisms is to remind him all the time (as she did before the bachelor party) that he supposedly can't "score" with girls (even when she knows it's not true), and act unnafected all the time.

The idea of Penny "chasing" Leonard has more to do with the fact that she needs to show reciprocity in their relationship. To show interest in making what they have work, not just to sit there in her throne as the prom queen, expecting to be adored by the lowly guy, unworthy of her.

Every one of the other characters of the show, in their respective relationships are making efforts to make it work, showing interest in their respective partners (even Sheldon! :icon_eek:), everyone, except her. She definitely needs to step down of her high horse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People who think Penny doesnt love Leonard should ask the Word Of Gods. Bill Prady says she does. Some of you will say yeah but i need to see it on screen. But we do see it on screen but it's subjective on is it enough. My thought is it is enough if the creators make it obvious and they have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't agree at all with the following statement "only very sad and pathetic girls with little self-respect ever chase guys". This is the 21st century, any woman is allowed to go after what she wants, and if it is a guy, what's wrong with that? It takes a strong and confident woman to do so.

Stong and confident women do NOT chase guys. A guy either wants you or he doesn't. If he doesn't, chasing him and trying to change his mind will make you a doormat. That's not the road to happiness.

The 1950's called, they want their anachronistic way of thinking back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He responds? cool. He is not interested? okay' date=' move on.[/b'] I don't feel it as a thing of great shame to do.

@sarah - People keep suggesting Penny should chase Leonard. What you're describing is NOT an example of "chasing".

In what universe "moving on" when the guy is not interested can be defined as "chasing"? :icon_lol: "Chasing" means exactly the opposite - NOT taking a hint that the guy doesn't want you.

Chasing a guy who doesn't love you is demeaning and pathetic, and I don't want such fate for Penny. She has enough problems with insufficient self-esteem as it is.

@SydNC - having healthy self-respect is not anachronistic. It's timeless. :icon_cheesygrin:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest I'm not dead Cheryl

He responds? cool. He is not interested? okay' date=' move on.[/b'] I don't feel it as a thing of great shame to do.

@sarah - People keep suggesting Penny should chase Leonard. What you're describing is NOT an example of "chasing".

In what universe "moving on" when the guy is not interested can be defined as "chasing"? :icon_lol: "Chasing" means exactly the opposite - NOT taking a hint that the guy doesn't want you.

Chasing a guy who doesn't love you is demeaning and pathetic, and I don't want such fate for Penny. She has enough problems with insufficient self-esteem as it is.

@SydNC - having healthy self-respect is not anachronistic. It's timeless. :icon_cheesygrin:

But you're forgetting something here. Leonard IS clearly interested in her. And she knows it. Leonard even told her that he loved her.

I don't see how putting some effort on a guy who clearly loves her would be bad for her self-esteem.

there is no character in this show with higher self-esteem than Sheldon and yet, he went along, interruped Amy's & Stuart's date and asked her to be his girlfriend and even got her to sign an Agreement. In a way he "chased" Amy (pun intended). He did the effort to get her to be with him. Sheldon stood up and fought even with himself to get what he wanted.

All Penny ever did was waiting for Leonard to make the move. He was the one who asked her out, he was the one who told her he loved her, all she did was breaking up with him. He starts dating someone else, and she does nothing other than feeling sorry for herself and regretting she left him. But she takes no action. She never tells him how she feels and does nothing again. And then, Leonard is free, and again, she does nothing, she just sits and waits for Leonard to ask her out again. And he does. And again, she does nothing. That's what bothers me about Penny. She doesn't fight for what she wants. She wants to be an actress, we almost never hear her talking about going to auditions, or taking acting lessons or nothing. She complained she felt she wasn't educated enough.. she doesn't even want to read a book. She wants to be with Leonard. She does nothing for the relationship, she expects Leonard to do all the job. That's Penny's big big character fail, and that's why a lot of us want to see Penny for once, working and "chasing" (and I use it in quotation marks because it is actually pursuing a person that loves her) Leonard.

i really really hope that next season Leonard realizes that loving someone doesn't mean to allow that person to make him a doormat, and that Penny realizes that being in a relationship is about giving and receiving, not only receiving.

Again, look at Sheldon and Amy. Sheldon even agreed to "boyfriend-girlfriend singalong night" with Amy even when he hates harp music and singing since it is something Amy enjoys. Penny doesn't even wants to watch Doctor Who with Leonard, but she is happy when he takes her shooting since it is something she enjoys even if Leonard got injured in the process.

Leonard and Penny really could take a lot of relationship lessons from the Shamy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@SydNC - having healthy self-respect is not anachronistic. It's timeless. :icon_cheesygrin:

Having self respect doesn't mean a woman can't ask a man out, or try to pursue a relationship with him. All you're saying is "men can, women can't". That manner of thought *is* anachronistic, mysoginisitic, mysandristic, closed minded, and arbitrary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if I am reading this correctly, some believe that if Leonard tells Penny that he is leaving because although he loves her, she doesn't return those feelings, he is looking for a long term loving relationship, and as hard as it will be for him, he is calling it quits with her in the hopes that he will someday find someone he loves and who will love him, Penny should just sit by the phone in her apartment hoping that he changes his mind? I would prefer that she chases after him and tells him that she loves him too. I don't believe that is demeaning. What is demeaning is to tell someone that you love them and their reply is "thank you". Should that happen it is time to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He responds? cool. He is not interested? okay' date=' move on.[/b'] I don't feel it as a thing of great shame to do.

@sarah - People keep suggesting Penny should chase Leonard. What you're describing is NOT an example of "chasing".

In what universe "moving on" when the guy is not interested can be defined as "chasing"? :icon_lol: "Chasing" means exactly the opposite - NOT taking a hint that the guy doesn't want you.

Chasing a guy who doesn't love you is demeaning and pathetic, and I don't want such fate for Penny. She has enough problems with insufficient self-esteem as it is.

@SydNC - having healthy self-respect is not anachronistic. It's timeless. :icon_cheesygrin:

But you're forgetting something here. Leonard IS clearly interested in her. And she knows it. Leonard even told her that he loved her.

I don't see how putting some effort on a guy who clearly loves her would be bad for her self-esteem.

But that's not at all what was being discussed and suggested.

What people keep suggesting - to which I strongly object - is that Penny gets her confidence in Leonard's love shaken and that she has to chase Leonard to earn his approval and love, and the examples of "chasing" they suggested were exactly that, "chasing a guy who is no longer interested". :icon_idea:

For example, some posters suggested that Leonard becomes interested in another girl and Penny gets jealous and has to "woo" him back. Or that Leonard dumps Penny, and Penny has to chase him to prove she is worthy and beg him to take her back. Or that Prya comes back and Leonard is wavering between the two, and Penny's confidence in Leonard is shaken and she has to fight with Prya for his love. Etc., etc.

THIS is what I'm talking about. Such chasing of someone who doesn't love you is sad and pathetic, and no woman with a shread of healthy self-esteem would ever demean herself so. JMHO

(And yes, I know, there're plenty of women who chase and beg for the scraps of guys' love, who "woo" the guy and fight other women for his attentions, who chase him trying to make him choose THEM instead of those other women, - and yes, IMHO such behavior is beyond pathetic and only leads to hearbreak and humiliation.

If a guy starts looking at other women, dump his sorry ass and find someone who will love YOU and will treat you with respect, instead of "chasing" him and trying to change his mind. Just my two cents.)

I don't want such fate for Penny...

I'm really surprised so many posters seem to think such behavior is healthy and okay. :icon_eek: (...especially since the same posters think that such behavior is NOT healthy for Leonard. Does it mean it's okay for a woman to humiliate herself, but a guy should have his self-respect? :icon_lol:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's okay, everyone. We'll just all us girls agree never to ask out BigBang and all will be well. :D

...considering that I'm a straight girl, that's a wise choice. Sorry girls, but my heart belongs to a guy. :icon_cheesygrin:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having self respect doesn't mean a woman can't ask a man out, or try to pursue a relationship with him. All you're saying is "men can, women can't". That manner of thought *is* anachronistic, mysoginisitic, mysandristic, closed minded, and arbitrary.

:icon_arrowu: THIS

All Penny ever did was waiting for Leonard to make the move. He was the one who asked her out, he was the one who told her he loved her, all she did was breaking up with him. He starts dating someone else, and she does nothing other than feeling sorry for herself and regretting she left him. But she takes no action. She never tells him how she feels and does nothing again. And then, Leonard is free, and again, she does nothing, she just sits and waits for Leonard to ask her out again. And he does. And again, she does nothing. That's what bothers me about Penny. She doesn't fight for what she wants. She wants to be an actress, we almost never hear her talking about going to auditions, or taking acting lessons or nothing. She complained she felt she wasn't educated enough.. she doesn't even want to read a book. She wants to be with Leonard. She does nothing for the relationship, she expects Leonard to do all the job. That's Penny's big big character fail, and that's why a lot of us want to see Penny for once, working and "chasing" (and I use it in quotation marks because it is actually pursuing a person that loves her) Leonard.

Completely agree with you here Sursonica.

Contrary to what many people claim, I think that the weak link in the relationship is her, not Leonard.

I oftenly read complaints that say that all Leonard and Penny have is "sex and alcohol", well, I'm sorry, but that's not exactly or exclusively Leonard's problem, it's Penny's mainly.

I mean, why doesn't she offer something else? She is the one who brings alcohol into the picture, she is the one who most of the time is luring him to bed (and if we take her other relationships as reference, things were not very different then) why doesn't she invites Leonard to do something interesting and fun together? Remember Leonard asked her at the start of the "Beta test" to read more, to have conversation topics (and she got all annoyed, BTW). I liked when they were playing chess, but I really doubt she was the one who proposed the idea originally.

She had already realized she is not able to date dumb guys anymore, why doesn't she follow her own idea?, to try to be more interesting, I'm not saying she should get into sciences, but some study wouldn't hurt her at all, something related to arts, perhaps. She gets angry when others point out her ignorance (specially Leonard, a sign that she values his opinion more than the others'), well, why doesn't she do something about it? Not just in spite of her relationship, but for herself, to grow as a person.

Thing is, Penny, doesn't contribute enough to the relationship, and I'm not just talking about reciprocating the feelings, I mean in a general sense. In fact, I find her extremely boring as a person.

I appreciate her nice qualities, she is good hearted and tolerant, she cares for her friends, but little more. She doesn't seem to have an interesting conversation, she doesn't read, she is not interested in widening her world, if she gets involved in something (aside of partying) the majority of times it's because someone else drags her to it. As you said, she lacks spirit to fight for what she wants.

I've read some criticism that say the show is mysoginistic taking Penny's lack of success as an example. I disagree, because Penny is not a failure because she is a woman, she is a failure in many senses because she is Penny.

Almost every woman who had ever appeared in the show is a succesful (career wise) and educated one: Leslie, Stephanie, Leonard's mom, Bernardette, Amy, Priya, Dr. Plimpton, etc. They may have nice or bad personal qualities, but they are not "losers", so, the problem is not women's portrayal in the show, but the way the character of Penny is constructed.

Aside from her relationship with Leonard, Penny's character needs a full redefinition, to be shown pursuing her career, trying to be something else than a waitress and the love interest of some guy. If the acting thing is not going anywhere, well, we could see her pursuing a comercial sucess of any kind (like when she wanted to sell the hair pins)

Your idea Sursonica of her taking acting lessons is also great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All you're saying is "men can, women can't". That manner of thought *is* anachronistic, mysoginisitic, mysandristic, closed minded, and arbitrary.

I'm a proud feminist. :icon_twisted: Among other things it means I don't want women to demean and disempower themselves. Chasing those who don't want you = disempowerment.

As a woman, I don't care what men do - let them make fools of themselves if they want. :icon_lol: (I wouldn't advise any male friend of mine to behave like Leonard, but that's beside the point.)

What is totally mysoginistic is to advise women that's it's okay to waste their efforts on trying to "catch" a guy WHO DOESN'T WANT THEM.

"He dumped me, he wants to get back together with his ex-girl friend, and he looks really smitten with this new girl - oh, what a prince, I want him, I'll have to chase him until he changes his mind!" (THAT'S what the proponents of "Penny chasing Leonard" had suggested!)

Why? Is there a severe shortage of men of which I'm perhaps not aware? :icon_eek:

There's plenty of fish in the sea. Why should a woman waste her valuable time on trying to chase someone WHO DOESN'T WANT OR RESPECT HER, when she could instead spend that time on bettering herself or on finding someone who will love her without all this tiresome chasing?

My sincere advice to all women (and Penny): The life is full of men. There're plenty of guys ready to love you. Why waste your valuable time on chasing those who don't? :icon_eek: It's pathetic and desperate! That's not what I would like for any woman, including Penny.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

IMHO Penny is the dumb Blond in contrast to the Genius of the guys. That lack of drive is also in contrast with the over achieving guys who write papers and are respected in their field.

That Contrast is what makes the show. It is the inter action of those different personalities.

Change the people and you change the theme of the show.

BTW Penny has changed, She has become less cool socially and more of a Nerd hanging out with Amy while quoting Start Wars.

..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

IMHO Penny is the dumb Blond in contrast to the Genius of the guys. That lack of drive is also in contrast with the over achieving guys who write papers and are respected in their field.

That Contrast is what makes the show. It is the inter action of those different personalities.

Change the people and you change the theme of the show.

BTW Penny has changed, She has become less cool socially and more of a Nerd hanging out with Amy while quoting Start Wars.

..

Well said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.