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I don't like this emasculation of Leonard either but TPTB get a big kickout of this theme this season which is the reason why I thought that Penny would propose to Leonard eventually. The seeds were set for this scenario in the very first episode of season 6 when Penny complained about wanting to be the "girl" for once. Penny has complained about Leonard always giving into her, especially after she saw him being assertive during their plutonic date in season 5. But she is so used to being in charge I don't think the writers can balance out their relationship completely with it still seeming like L/P.

I think they may be evening out the relationship since the ILY in 6.08, with Lenard showing a set once in a while with the Christmas episode, 6.12 and now this.  Lenard seems to be getting more confidence and is becoming more willing to stand up to Penny when he thinks he is right or she is being unfair.

 

Hopefully the writers continue on this, because as a guy I really hate neutered male characters. 

 

But let’s be honest, Bernadette also is the dominate one in H/B.  Seems like writers like showing the dominating female, well Sheldon doesn’t fold much, but that is because he is mostly clueless on this type of stuff.

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The Monster Isolation   Raj is sitting in an empty coffee shop with potential love interest, Lucy. He is talking about himself and where he has studied and that he is an astrophysicist. He stops tal

does "being hot" then equal being "better" then? Sorry, but I HATE that argument, saying that Sheldon could "do better" only because Amy is not "hot enough?". Because that's what you're saying.   Is

I think that part of the problem with how Penny has been written is that they have wanted to keep them from getting too serious too fast, since they have been the primary couple from the pilot onward.

It's the curse of a show that lasts many seasons, the stories need to be dragged out. Yes, it will take longer with Penny in charge, but it will be a lot more meaningful when it happens. If Leonard had actually proposed and she had said yes now, with 3-4 more seasons left to go, I bet you that they would have had her back out of it next year, maybe even break up with Leonard again and have more drama. Wouldn't you rather wait for Penny to propose than having them constantly on and off again? I could see them marry in S8 though, and change things up a bit in the last two years of the show maybe. 

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It's the curse of a show that lasts many seasons, the stories need to be dragged out. Yes, it will take longer with Penny in charge, but it will be a lot more meaningful when it happens. If Leonard had actually proposed and she had said yes now, with 3-4 more seasons left to go, I bet you that they would have had her back out of it next year, maybe even break up with Leonard again and have more drama. Wouldn't you rather wait for Penny to propose than having them constantly on and off again? I could see them marry in S8 though, and change things up a bit in the last two years of the show maybe. 

Hmmmm, i think that i overreacted to this episode and not to take all the positive material this episode that brought to us. You have the best explanation and i hope that the writers have the same thinking of you that there will be no breakup or drama between them

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ive always thought of penny proposing and i like it because it does reverswe the roles, it doesnt make leonard and less of a man and penny any less of woman. it works, and it shows more modern day things.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t think Penny being the one to propose is the problem.  In fact it makes sense considering her commitment issues.  Lenard is letting her know she will be responsible if they ever take the next step.

 

I think more people are upset/concerned when we had Lenard apologizing for everything, even when Penny was at fault or at least partially at fault.  Lenard always letting Penny have her way, deciding what movies they see, how fast they move their relationship and so forth.

 

I liked that for once Penny was the one who asked if they were still dating in and she also admitted that sometimes she can be a bitch (sorry but there are times she has acted like one).

 

They don’t have to rush the proposal if they ever actually do it.  But show the two of them in a more balanced relationship would be nice.

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I think it's such a nice change to have the girl proposing for once, I don't understand all this talk about emasculation. Do we really need to stick to gender stereotypes? It would be so meaningful coming from Penny. I can't be happier about it. 

 

What you say here is beautiful if it reflected the idea that the writers are transmitting to us this season. The writers seem to think it is funny to reverse the stereotype male and female roles for a laugh. If Penny and Leonard were reletionship equals and were mature adults then having Penny propose to Leonard would be indeed new day thinking.

 

Instead, they have mearly kept and reversed the gender stereotypes: Leonard is passive, nest building and emotionally needy; Penny is assertive, undomesticated and emotionally repressed.  They did not drop the stereotypes, they just assigned them to the opposite gender in the relationship.

 

Oh, well, I guess we will have to go with that flow.

Edited by BangerMain

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I liked that for once Penny was the one who asked if they were still dating in and she also admitted that sometimes she can be a bitch (sorry but there are times she has acted like one).
It also ties into "Egg Salad," where she confesses her own insecurities about their relationship. It's no longer one-sided: both Leonard and Penny are now equally sharing the ups and downs, whereas before it was mostly Leonard's burden and Penny was along for the ride. Sent from my Asus Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 2

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My Shamy love been posted elsewhere, as for the rest of the episode :

 

H/B sounds like a typical early married couple or any married couple for that matter or speaking from experience, living with a SO, issues like these arise all the time.

L/P. GO LEONARD! YOU STAND UP FOR YOURSELF! 

Raj/Stuart...and their awesome party. C'mon...who DOESN'T love this.

I love how it sounds...I'm sure I'll love watching it...

Just LOVE!

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The episode is making me very happy overall, even apart from the magical Shamy gifts.

 

I like that Leonard was assertive with Penny, and she admitted she had behaved badly (like once earlier she admitted to being insecure).. things are changing between them, in a good way. I also think it's perfect that he told her she has to be the one to propose. It takes the pressure of committing off her, in the same way as Amy took the pressure of conventional romance off Sheldon, which I think is a great parallel. And at this stage it will make much more sense and be more meaningful if Penny is the one to express a desire to commit, whenever that happens. We already know that Leonard is ready.

 

The Raj/Stuart party sounds good, too. The Howard/Bernie issue seems to be a side story, but quite appropriate - this is the kind of stuff that happens, early in marriage.

Edited by Pomita
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I don't think this emasculates Leonard. I think Leonard's just tired of putting it out there and being rejected. Penny's as much as admitted she wants to marry Leonard, shes just afraid to pull the pin. You could think of them as engaged to be engaged.

Edited by eirwinrommel
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I like that, after the previous week when both Amy and Leonard were maybe a bit too pushy, this week they both took the pressure off their SOs.

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I think that Leonard gave Penny a non-proposal proposal because he basically said, "whenever you're ready I'll say yes" when he mentioned not doing it on a jumbotron because he didn't want to cry in front of everyone.  He wouldn't talk about crying in front of everyone if he didn't think he'd be saying yes.   Though it does turn the gender roles on their heads, I think it does show him essentially putting his foot down.

 

If anything, I think they've made Leonard more of his own man during this season, but starting, really, with when he and Penny went on the platonic date and he confessed that he used to do all these things to please her because he wanted to have sex and he thought that was the only way.

She got used to being the one calling the shots, having the upper hand, because she was the one with the power to say yes or no to him.

 

In a good relationship, there should be no upper hand, no one person constantly begging the other for affection, etc.

Well, now that Penny finally said ILY, and now that both of them have admitted to their insecurities and can talk about them without fear, they've reached that more even keel.  Though Penny may still balk at the prospect of that full committment, Leonard is no longer afraid to put his foot down and be real with her.

 

I think that Howard and Bernie have been going through this business of finding the even keel throughout their relationship.  The gang has often told Howard not to screw things up with Bernadette because he's never going to find another girl like her, who loves him and is willing to put up with his individual quirks, but he was still assertive enough to kick her out of his bed when she went behind his back to his mother about the trip to space.

I think it's kind of run--and kind of real--that they're sorting out their married life, Bernadette being mostly okay with his hobbies, but still putting her foot down when he gets excessive, Howard learning what it means to be a husband, not just a boyfriend or a son.

 

And Sheldon and Amy--SHeldon is all about the upper hand, with pretty much everyone around him, except maybe his mother.  But Amy's presence has made him have to go back to the drawing board and figure out that if he wants her in his life, he has to compromise, give in, overcome his selfish tendencies, etc.  And she has to learn that she can't expect him to be like other guys or that her relationship with him will always be unconventional because he is, as she once put it, "a bit of a left-handed monkey-wrench."  They're both learning to navigate the waters of this relationship business and their finding it in their own way, but it's still about even-handedness.

 

I'm looking forward to this episode!

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I think that Leonard gave Penny a non-proposal proposal because he basically said, "whenever you're ready I'll say yes" when he mentioned not doing it on a jumbotron because he didn't want to cry in front of everyone.  He wouldn't talk about crying in front of everyone if he didn't think he'd be saying yes.   Though it does turn the gender roles on their heads, I think it does show him essentially putting his foot down.

 

If anything, I think they've made Leonard more of his own man during this season, but starting, really, with when he and Penny went on the platonic date and he confessed that he used to do all these things to please her because he wanted to have sex and he thought that was the only way.

She got used to being the one calling the shots, having the upper hand, because she was the one with the power to say yes or no to him.

 

In a good relationship, there should be no upper hand, no one person constantly begging the other for affection, etc.

Well, now that Penny finally said ILY, and now that both of them have admitted to their insecurities and can talk about them without fear, they've reached that more even keel.  Though Penny may still balk at the prospect of that full committment, Leonard is no longer afraid to put his foot down and be real with her.

 

I think that Howard and Bernie have been going through this business of finding the even keel throughout their relationship.  The gang has often told Howard not to screw things up with Bernadette because he's never going to find another girl like her, who loves him and is willing to put up with his individual quirks, but he was still assertive enough to kick her out of his bed when she went behind his back to his mother about the trip to space.

I think it's kind of run--and kind of real--that they're sorting out their married life, Bernadette being mostly okay with his hobbies, but still putting her foot down when he gets excessive, Howard learning what it means to be a husband, not just a boyfriend or a son.

 

And Sheldon and Amy--SHeldon is all about the upper hand, with pretty much everyone around him, except maybe his mother.  But Amy's presence has made him have to go back to the drawing board and figure out that if he wants her in his life, he has to compromise, give in, overcome his selfish tendencies, etc.  And she has to learn that she can't expect him to be like other guys or that her relationship with him will always be unconventional because he is, as she once put it, "a bit of a left-handed monkey-wrench."  They're both learning to navigate the waters of this relationship business and their finding it in their own way, but it's still about even-handedness.

 

I'm looking forward to this episode!

First off thank you Monique for the great report!

I love your post phantagrae. However, regarding L/P's relationship, even though Leonard is now willing to "put his foot down" when it comes to Penny, he still ends up doing exactly what she wants. Even when he was assertive he became an enabler. She is in control as much, if not more, now then ever. He has told her he'll marry her but she has to ask him. Fine except he didn't add one more sentence. That being "I'm willing to wait because ILY but I won't wait forever." Why should she propose when she has what she wants now with no commitment? A person that say ILY without be willing to back that up with a commitment is simply saying it to make each other feel good at the moment. If you can't make a commitment what you are really saying is I like how this is going until something better comes along. If a person isn't willing to back up the ILY then all they are is 3 hollow words. If Penny doesn't want what Leonard yearns for then how long is Leonard willing to wait before someone else (Alex) begins to look more attractive?

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First off thank you Monique for the great report!

I love your post phantagrae. However, regarding L/P's relationship, even though Leonard is now willing to "put his foot down" when it comes to Penny, he still ends up doing exactly what she wants. Even when he was assertive he became an enabler. She is in control as much, if not more, now then ever. He has told her he'll marry her but she has to ask him. Fine except he didn't add one more sentence. That being "I'm willing to wait because ILY but I won't wait forever." Why should she propose when she has what she wants now with no commitment? A person that say ILY without be willing to back that up with a commitment is simply saying it to make each other feel good at the moment. If you can't make a commitment what you are really saying is I like how this is going until something better comes along. If a person isn't willing to back up the ILY then all they are is 3 hollow words. If Penny doesn't want what Leonard yearns for then how long is Leonard willing to wait before someone else (Alex) begins to look more attractive?

 

did he really need to say he won't wait forever?  i think that can be assumed.

 

when dealing with someone who has a fear of commitment, sometimes the best course of action is to put the decision in their hands.  very often, they will make the decision quicker than they would have if the other person retained "control" of the decision making.

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First off thank you Monique for the great report!

I love your post phantagrae. However, regarding L/P's relationship, even though Leonard is now willing to "put his foot down" when it comes to Penny, he still ends up doing exactly what she wants. Even when he was assertive he became an enabler. She is in control as much, if not more, now then ever. He has told her he'll marry her but she has to ask him. Fine except he didn't add one more sentence. That being "I'm willing to wait because ILY but I won't wait forever." Why should she propose when she has what she wants now with no commitment? A person that say ILY without be willing to back that up with a commitment is simply saying it to make each other feel good at the moment. If you can't make a commitment what you are really saying is I like how this is going until something better comes along. If a person isn't willing to back up the ILY then all they are is 3 hollow words. If Penny doesn't want what Leonard yearns for then how long is Leonard willing to wait before someone else (Alex) begins to look more attractive?

 

Because if he loves her, maybe he is willing to wait.  There's no deadline on when they get married.  And maybe he doesn't get everything he wants by saying he'll wait--he doesn't get to live with her, for instance, but that doesn't mean that he's giving her power.

He's letting go of the need to have power and letting go of the fear that she'll leave him if she doesn't commit right now.  In a way he's saying, "I love you, but if you want me you're going to have to come and get me because I'm not going to beg you to be with me."

That is powerful, but without threatening her with a break-up or with leaving her if she doesn't comply.  To threaten her with a deadline is to take the upper hand, to demand compliance.

In letting go of that demand, he's freeing her to make the committment because she wants to commit, not because she wants to please him or humor him or give in.

 

In a way, it's like taming a horse.  You can put a saddle and bridle on a horse, but physically you can't really do anything to make that horse comply short of beating it into submission.  But if you build trust with that horse, it will allow itself to be led by a simple tug of the reins or a nudge of your foot.  That horse is always able to kill you if it wants to, but if it trusts you, it will obey and carry you and maybe even save your life.

So, Penny is the horse and Leonard is saying, you can trust me, I won't hurt you.  But he has to wait until she's ready to trust him.  If he were to simply jump on her back and try to force her, she could just buck him off (as she's done before :p )

 

Perhaps it's not a perfect metaphor, but I think it applies to some degree.

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All that makes me think of is "Sorry stallion, your weird friend giraffe is here!"

 

I forgot about that one. :D

 

Fortunately for the Shamy, I don't know any giraffe-taming analogies... :p

Edited by phantagrae

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Basically Penny confirms that one day she'll accept his proposal (and we know she'd already said ILY).

 

That scares her, but there can be many reasons for her being insecure right now, starting with her previous bad experience and, what is more important, along with that Leonard is an accomplished highly educated professional in contrast to her, which means she may end up as a housewife.

 

This simply means she must resolve this sort of psychological problems. Although I like seeing them as a married couple, I perfectly understand her. Well, his reaction is to show that he will not always propose to her, now it is her own duty if she wish to stay with him.

 

In my opinion, this Leonard2.0 from S6 is a very confident version of Leonard. :-)

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Because if he loves her, maybe he is willing to wait.  There's no deadline on when they get married.  And maybe he doesn't get everything he wants by saying he'll wait--he doesn't get to live with her, for instance, but that doesn't mean that he's giving her power.

He's letting go of the need to have power and letting go of the fear that she'll leave him if she doesn't commit right now.  In a way he's saying, "I love you, but if you want me you're going to have to come and get me because I'm not going to beg you to be with me."

That is powerful, but without threatening her with a break-up or with leaving her if she doesn't comply.  To threaten her with a deadline is to take the upper hand, to demand compliance.

In letting go of that demand, he's freeing her to make the committment because she wants to commit, not because she wants to please him or humor him or give in.

 

In a way, it's like taming a horse.  You can put a saddle and bridle on a horse, but physically you can't really do anything to make that horse comply short of beating it into submission.  But if you build trust with that horse, it will allow itself to be led by a simple tug of the reins or a nudge of your foot.  That horse is always able to kill you if it wants to, but if it trusts you, it will obey and carry you and maybe even save your life.

So, Penny is the horse and Leonard is saying, you can trust me, I won't hurt you.  But he has to wait until she's ready to trust him.  If he were to simply jump on her back and try to force her, she could just buck him off (as she's done before :p )

 

Perhaps it's not a perfect metaphor, but I think it applies to some degree.

Very well said! So in your estimation what could Leonard possibly do differently or hasn't already convied to Penny during their relationship that would make her trust him? Also, what has he done that has made her not trust him at this point?

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Very well said! So in your estimation what could Leonard possibly do differently or hasn't already convied to Penny during their relationship that would make her trust him? Also, what has he done that has made her not trust him at this point?

 

I think she trusts him more than she realizes.  I think it maybe herself that she doesn't trust.  She seems to doubt that what she feels is real--that this "boring" kind of love, as she put it, is really the real thing.

What she had experienced before with other guys may have been affection or just lust, but once she started hanging out with Leonard, dating Leonard, she found that those kinds of guys weren't good enough for her.  But she apparently hasn't had any real experience with this kind of steady, real love and she just doesn't understand it.

I think she's just afraid of her own heart, doesn't yet trust her own feelings to be real, or she's just young enough to not be quite ready to look at the long-term future.

I don't think it's anything that Leonard has done or failed to do.  Sometimes it's all in your own head.

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