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C-Trayne

Leonard And Penny Shippers Thread (Possible Spoilers)

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I think the biggest problems that this relationship has had over the years and why it hasn't been embraced as quickly as other couples is that the writers really aren't good at writing conflict for these two that doesn't involve the audience wanting to slap one or both of the characters upside their figurative heads. I have yet to watch a fight or conflict between these two characters that had me genuinely laughing and going "that was hilarious". Most people I've talked to whether they ship the pairing or not have said the same thing. Writers and producers will talk till their blue in the face about the need for conflict in the relationship because that is what keeps it interesting, but the fact is that there is a cavet that comes with it....it has to be entertaining to watch. Sadly most of the time when it comes to L/P, it isn't. This is one the biggest reasons why the audience has really embraced Sheldon/Amy because unlike L/P, the writers have been able to make their conflicts very funny and entertaining to watch.

This - so much this. Leonard and Penny's fights are cringeworthy, mostly. The Psychic episode where Leonard immediately just laughs at Penny after saying he wouldn't. That's not normally what he's like - he is usually pretty sensitive to Penny's feelings - so it just feels weird and make me think, yeah Leonard, you're kind of an ass. The most obnoxious person on a double date with Howard Wolowitz! I guess it was worth it for that line, lol. But Sheldon and Amy's arguments, and Sheldon and Penny's arguments, are hilarious. - Perhaps this is the point - L/P are not a 'funny' couple, they're the 'normal' couple, so their arguments are never for comic effect but always to do something with their chracters/relationship.

Penny, too, is so frustrating. The fact that she flips out every time Leonard says anything about the relationship is usually more painful to watch than funny.

Edited by Europa

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Also, much as it's easy to blame Penny for being the bad girlfriend, Leonard is not without his faults. He's jealous, possessive, and often way too desperate to please when he's in the boyfriend role with her (less so with other women, but still a man who feels like the woman is in charge of the relationship). She admired the "independent" Leonard she saw on their date, when he was asserting his wants and not letting her push him around. It would be good to see them both change for the better while in the relationship.

I know they keep this milk toast, confident deficient and oblivious characteristics in Leonard for the sake of the show's continuity but damn, Leonard seems like he has selective amnesia. He has been hit on by several hot, successful women but he still thinks he can't attract anybody. I mean, they have shown women coming on to him after minutes of meeting him and he seems to be forever surprised.

Leonard has had sex with Penny probably over a hundred times and he still thinks of her as unattainable. She has flat out told him to be more assertive with her and stop letting her have her way all the time but this is the one command from her that he ignores. He can not help but play the traditional "girl" role in their relationship despite Penny's derisive comments.

Here's hoping the writers will start fixing this about Leonard. It really is nonsensical, especially for a man who is supposed to be a brilliant scientist who makes careful observations. They have written him to not observe anything about his own life.

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Cringeworthy is a great way to describe Leonard and Penny's conflicts. Everyone seems on the verge of breaking them up. I sometimes think the same as Leonard, when the argue, are they breaking up? The writers seem to make their arguments more intense to try and force drama or a laugh at their characters

expense.

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This - so much this. Leonard and Penny's fights are cringeworthy, mostly. The Psychic episode where Leonard immediately just laughs at Penny after saying he wouldn't. That's not normally what he's like - he is usually pretty sensitive to Penny's feelings - so it just feels weird and make me think, yeah Leonard, you're kind of an ass. The most obnoxious person on a double date with Howard Wolowitz! I guess it was worth it for that line, lol. But Sheldon and Amy's arguments, and Sheldon and Penny's arguments, are hilarious. - Perhaps this is the point - L/P are not a 'funny' couple, they're the 'normal' couple, so their arguments are never for comic effect but always to do something with their chracters/relationship.

Penny, too, is so frustrating. The fact that she flips out every time Leonard says anything about the relationship is usually more painful to watch than funny.

You beat me to the punch haha I think what your syaing here is true. The L/P relationship is supposed to be the "normal" or core relationship of the show. The couple who has their problems, fights, and other conflicts that we as the audience can relate the most too. Therefore, often times there arguments come across as not funny becuase well they aren't... they are fighting and personally i usually feel bad for one side or the other. Both Leonard and Penny have made mistakes and caused problems for thee other but in the end we have seen them managing to keep hold of what they love. Eachother.

@DPK I agree with pretty much your entire post, they definitely need to address the living situation before we can consider marrige. How/where they move will be a huge part plus how sheldon ends up playing into it. I think that this will be the huge twist or the "turning point" for this season. Also I think that it is imperative that they at least slow down on the conflict as well. A lot of the interaction between them as of late has been arguments or at least disagreements and while they have been able to work through them its not what we want to see. It would be nice to see an episode or two where they are being a girlfriend and boyfriend. Whether its snuggling in bed, or watching a movie, or just sharing a chair... we need more to see that they really are on good terms.

@Bangerman While I agree with what your saying about Leonard basically needing to man up I think what we need to look at is his past. He spent his childhood believeing that he was not as good as the rest of his family or anyone else around him for that matter. Constantly bullied, never good enough for his parents, and few friends to lend support can lead one to that cluelessness and the insecurities we see him face. I don't think its that he sees Penny as "unattainable" i think its that he is scared of losing her and he doesn't know how to be assertive. Think about it the only time we've really seen him take action was the first season when he told Kurt off and ended being hoisted in the air. The truth is hes scared... or at least he was before the ILY. Hopefully that will be the first step in helping him climb up to a higher horse.

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@Bangerman While I agree with what your saying about Leonard basically needing to man up I think what we need to look at is his past. He spent his childhood believeing that he was not as good as the rest of his family or anyone else around him for that matter. Constantly bullied, never good enough for his parents, and few friends to lend support can lead one to that cluelessness and the insecurities we see him face. I don't think its that he sees Penny as "unattainable" i think its that he is scared of losing her and he doesn't know how to be assertive. Think about it the only time we've really seen him take action was the first season when he told Kurt off and ended being hoisted in the air. The truth is hes scared... or at least he was before the ILY. Hopefully that will be the first step in helping him climb up to a higher horse.

Leonard's upbringing made him what he was at the start of the series, without a doubt. What is unrealistic is that despite all that has happened to him, especially with women, he is still the same way. Leonard has had ridiculous success with women and that includes Penny.

I don't have to list the ladies he has bedded with little effort on his part during the run of the series, yet the writers still have him as a hapless loser. Alex is pretty much offering herself on a silver platter just like Alice, the comic book girl, and Dr. Stephanie. How many men do you know would think of themselves as being hapless with the ladies after that kind of track record? How many guys would be so clueless about how to handle Penny after he has had sex with her for the hundredth time?

I know, this is not real life but that part of the Leonard's character has always been strangely portrayed.

Edited by BangerMain

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You make many valid points and many that i agree with. Sure he is still has several issues to work through and yes its odd it has taken him this long but i think a big part of it has been because his "successes" haven't been that at all. Lets look at ladies hes been with and determine how so...

First off we know he has been infatuated by penny since episode 1. If he had his way Leonard would have been with her from the start no questions asked. That alone can tell us that in his minds eye his only victory would be being with her. Now looking at the women he has ended up with after either being rejected by penny or after breaking up with her.

-Leslie winkle : He went to her after he decided he wasn't good enough for penny and decided try someone more his level. She turns him down. Then later when she stays late at his apartment for the string quartet she needs to be very specific as to what she wants (sex). Had she not been leonard would never have even thought about it. He becomes attached and then is crushed by Leslie's reaction. That pain of being rejected by what was likely one of his first sexual encounters probablydidn't sit well with him, nor could he count that as success.

My memory is a little fuzzy about what happens when she approaches him with a real relationship but it didn't last and it didn't even seem like Leonard was really into the whole thing. I need to rewatch this part, i admit. Any who moving on...

-Stephanie : The woman he takes too after failing his attempt with penny seemed more to be coincidence than anything. We don't exactly know what happened in the car before they were all over eachother but likely compared to howard, Leonard probably looked like a movie star. Their relationship moved quickly and oddly for sure. The jar scene, sheldon changing leonards facebook status, her moving in with him, etc. This i think overwhelmed him very quickly and we get our first view that Leonard really doesn't know how to talk about his feelings with women. When penny tells him he has an equal say in the relationship he gets all confused and says something like "that doesn't sound right". Honestly, i don't think that this had a positive effect on his psyche because of how fast it moved. Leonard wasn't ready for it and in the end i think this likely moved him back a few steps in terms of women.

-Priya : While we don't know what happened the first time they hooked up we know that when she first comes to visit she is the one to initiate the intimate relations. She grabs him and kisses him in caltech where it is probably safe to believe that Leonard would never have tried something so bold. Later in the season we see the two enter into a real relationship and Leonards first since penny. This one is tough because through the relationship i didn't really see any problems. Sure priya was kinda bitchy sometimes but hey it happens. I think what ended up hurting Leonard though was her cheating on him. He had the opportunity to cheat but was able to resist his urges while Priya is not. This ends up hurting him deeply and rightly so. Its not hard to imagine him reverting back to his season one insecure self after such a traumatic experience (believe me, i know).

-Alice : Its easy to see how this interaction could be a huge ego boost for Leonard. He puts little effort or action in and gets a phone number from her. Easy peasy right? Not exactly... He is a good enough guy to not go through with fully cheating on Leonard and when he tells Alice about his GF he is expecting a much different response than what he receives. Leonard expects to be the good guy here by staying true to Priya and friends with Alice Instead he is called a jackass and kicked out of her apartment not exactly ideal. Especially to return home and find that Priya has cheated on him.

-Alex : I'm putting this here to try and explain why i believe is so blind to her advances. All of the women in his life from his mother to Priya are all very direct. They all lay out exactly what is going to happen, whether its Leslie saying "I'm available for coitus" or Priya jumping on him in the hall way, Leonard has had very little experience with flirtation. I'm not even sure he understands how it works, (remember his attempt with the FBI lady lol). With so little experience and so many unknowns when it comes to the subject its not hard to see him misinterpreting Alex's remarks. Not only this but Leonard is a scientist. One who goes by facts and tries to find his answer as quick as possible. He doesn't beat around the bush (usually) and this is exactly what flirting is. Trying to get someones attention without saying "hey i want you." Again not Leonards strong suit.

-Lastly, Penny : Its hard to really talk about this one because theres so much to say. When penny ended it with Leonard the first time he was devastated. Alone and hurt he didn't really know what to do with himself. He tried going to bars, got back into his cello, anything to take his mind away from it. Then when they finally get back together he is constantly afraid of having that happen again. He loves this woman to death and doesn't know how she feels back. Does she love him? Is she gonna leave him again? This leads to a lot of fear, insecurity, and jealousy. Which as i've stated before i'm hoping starts getting fixed with the ILY...

Another thing is that Leonard is not an alpha male. He is not strong, big, muscular, or dominant in any real way shape or form. He doesn't know how to play that role and is therefore afraid to try, especially with penny whom he might scare away by trying too hard or doing the wrong thing. He likely feels by letting her take control he will have a higher chance success because there will be less for him to screw up. This is why I don't think he is clueless about how to deal with penny but afraid. Also, just because they have sex doesn't mean he will just understand how to not be afraid. Penny is not an average woman nor is she one Leonard is used to dealing with especially at a deeper emotional level. So having sex is not going to solve his issues about her feelings towards him and other guys in general.

-others : i know i'm leaving out a few like Bernadette's friend and the elderly woman but i think the friend was just a kind of rebound fling after penny and the old lady was more out of pity than anything... oh and plimpton but that also was likely more of just an availability thing. She got naked in his bedroom what would anyone do? Again tho he gets attached and gets hurt... seems to be a pattern here.

In the end we can see how if he took things this way then he would remain his sorry insecure self... it may not as exciting to watch but I think this is who Leonard really is inside and it takes more than sex with a hot chick to change that

Any ways sorry for the long post but i was bored and figured i'd let out some thoughts on all these topics. I'm loving the attention this topic is getting! Thank you to all who are posting i love having a topic to come to and talk only about this couple :D

Edited by C-Trayne
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I am also a big fan of this couple.

But frankly I always felt that the problem with the these two characters or their relationship (atleast in the earlier seasons) was just the intense focus on Sheldon

I always felt after season 1 they mostly stopped characterizing Leonard and Penny and just focused on Sheldon

They just had to butt in Sheldon into mostly every scenario...for example...fight in the episode where Penny's friend sleeps on the couch...they made is mostly about how Sheldon will react

Another big example --- the episode after they break-up --- just think about how an episode about L\P will react after breaking up could be so immensly focused on Sheldon...

There are so many other examples where the writers ignored many important aspects of their relationship and gave focus to Sheldon

Anyway Sorry for this rant :)

I too don't think they are going to break them up again... I just hope now that ILY has been said by Penny, we get to see more Confident Leonard and sweet ,appreciative , playful Penny and if they do have any conflicts , let those be mostly playful conflicts (something like teasing other or something like in the Sheldon goes to Amy's lab episode)...and not slamming doors in the face conflicts...

And by the way good job C-Trayne for opening this thread :)

Edited by vasu
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U know what? That is an excellent point and I've never even made that connection. Thinking back on it, it does seem like a lot of the conflict between the tw does seem to depend a lot on Sheldon's reaction to everything at least in season 3 more so than six and a little bit in five (when Sheldon is telling everyone about Leonard's proposal)

Certainly is an interesting thought. I mean he is widely thought of as the funniest character so maybe it was an attempt to bring humor in darker situations but I think I would rather see L and P work out there problems rather deal with sheldon

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Good analysis, C-Trayne. Poor Leonard, maybe something he has in common with Sheldon is a peculiar inability to pick up on what other people would consider fairly obvious social clues. He really does seem to need hit over the head with it when a woman is interested. And I'm reminded of how blind he was to Stephanie's gradual moving in to his apartment. He didn't even notice that his Batman signal was gone until Penny pointed out the picture that was in its place!

Leonard's behavior with Penny makes sense if you think about how he perceives himself when he's in a relationship: lucky to be there. The abrupt ends of most of his relationships is a good indicator of why he's so terrified of putting a foot out of line: one wrong move and the relationship is over. And he can never seem to catch a break; he decides to do the right thing with Alice and promptly finds he's been cheated on by Priya!

Ugh, Priya. While smart and beautiful, it's annoying when someone seems to like you and then immediately tries to change you (though this is pretty common, lol). Question: has Penny tried to change Leonard? I'm thinking no... she's teased him and mocked him about his interests, and she clearly doesn't appreciate the nerd stuff much, but when he decided to get rid of all his action figures and whatnot she apologized and said no, don't do that, it's part of who you are. Am I forgetting some examples of Penny trying to change him? I hope not as my idea here is that this is one thing that makes Penny a good match for him - she may not always understand him, but she accepts who he is.

Edited by Europa
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Another great point! I can't think of any time where penny has actively tried to change who Leonard is as a person. Sure she doesn't always like it when Leonard goes full nerd in front of her but on the whole she enjoys who he is and even participates some times... like with the justice league costume and stuff. I think that she's a much better fit for him than piya was, I hates how much she tried to change him

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I got to say Leonard deserved to to be kicked out of Alice's apartment. He really wasn't being a good guy in this episode at all because he should never have gotten to that point with Alice to begin with. If he wanted to be friends with Alice he should have told her from the start that he had a girlfriend and just left it at that. Sure at the end of the day he didn't full on cheat on Priya but he's definately guilty of at least a partial betrayal(kissing Alice has to at least count against him in a fashion)and lets be honest here the writers knew that and had Priya full on cheat on Leonard in part to as a way to minimize damage on Leonard's character considering he at least strayed a bit.

Penny actually admitted to trying to change Leonard. The difference being that she simply didn't succeed for any period of time. She complained to Amy and Bernadette about Priya reaping the benefits of her efforts into turning Leonard into decient "boyfriend material". She also interrupted and made comments during Leonard/Priya's date to congraduate her on getting Leonard to dress like grown man for a change. Which says not only did Penny try to change the way he behaved but also how he dressed.

But that scene also showcased Penny's flaw in being so shallow and letting her opinions be dictated by outside standards. There's nothing wrong with how Leonard dresses but Penny grew up and was being told that guys should dress and looked like Abercrombie and Finch models. Those are the types of guys she's gone for in the past. I think now Penny's largely changed though and would never attempt to do that again.

Edited by DPK

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Another example of how focus on Sheldon's character impacts L\P

In the episode where Sheldon teaches Penny Physics

- The main goal of Penny was to impress Leonard (very nice story idea)

- So she asks Sheldon to teach her Physics which he does :p

- But in the ending scene where she tells the big Physics dialogue it looked like she was trying to mock him rather than trying to impress him.

- It looked like Sheldon and Penny won the match , but the problem was that Leonard did not know what was going on , he was not playing the match

- A good ending would have been Leonard recognizing the fact that his girlfriend tried to learn Physics for him and appreciating it. ( this was what I was expecting at the start of the episode :p)

- But the writers were like--who cares about all that, see Sheldon is so funny , see Sheldon is so funny

So as a result the goal that was set at the start was not accomplished.

The episode was very funny but still it felt incomplete to me

What actually baffled me was that the same writes were able to focus on all the characters previously

because a similar kind of storyline was done previously in season 1 - Leonard's birthday episode

- Penny wanting to do something nice to Leonard, S\P plot , L\H plot

But the difference was that sweetness was delivered at the end the episode . So as a result that episode felt complete as all the goals were accomplished

I posted this is some other thread also , but I felt I should post is here also as this is more appropriate thread

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I got to say Leonard deserved to to be kicked out of Alice's apartment. He really wasn't being a good guy in this episode at all because he should never have gotten to that point with Alice to begin with. If he wanted to be friends with Alice he should have told her from the start that he had a girlfriend and just left it at that. Sure at the end of the day he didn't full on cheat on Priya but he's definately guilty of at least a partial betrayal(kissing Alice has to at least count against him in a fashion)and lets be honest here the writers knew that and had Priya full on cheat on Leonard in part to as a way to minimize damage on Leonard's character considering he at least strayed a bit.

Penny actually admitted to trying to change Leonard. The difference being that she simply didn't succeed for any period of time. She complained to Amy and Bernadette about Priya reaping the benefits of her efforts into turning Leonard into decient "boyfriend material". She also interrupted and made comments during Leonard/Priya's date to congraduate her on getting Leonard to dress like grown man for a change. Which says not only did Penny try to change the way he behaved but also how he dressed.

But that scene also showcased Penny's flaw in being so shallow and letting her opinions be dictated by outside standards. There's nothing wrong with how Leonard dresses but Penny grew up and was being told that guys should dress and looked like Abercrombie and Finch models. Those are the types of guys she's gone for in the past. I think now Penny's largely changed though and would never attempt to do that again.

Well said in all aspects. I apologize if i under stated his interaction with Alice. I definitely agree that he was totally at fault as well, I mean going all the way or not he still cheated on her. The thing was he felt terrible about it right after he did and begged Priya forgiveness only to find out she had done way worse AND not told him about till a week or two later (i don't remember how long). My point was that because leonard tried to do the right thing he ended up getting hurt a lot worse.

Also thank you for reminding me about penny's comment. I admit I'm fairly knowledgable about each season except for season 4. I really didn't like Leonard dating Priya and therefore have only seen most of the episodes from only once or sometimes twice. I do recall now Penny saying something like "good for you getting him out of all those hoodies" or somthing along those lines. However, I don't think Penny ever actively tried to change him the way Priya did, nor did she ever give him an ultimatum about who hes allowed to hang out with.

Your also right about who Penny has dated in the past and its natural for her to want to make Leonard the same (fear of change). But the thing is, she didn't really try too, sure she might have wished he was hotter, or stronger, or dressed nicer but at the end of the day she loved him for him. And yes i'm saying love because even though she didn't say it the first time they dated i think its safe to assume she did. Now though that we have seen her undergoing some evolutionary growth i don't see her trying anything like this.

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Another example of how focus on Sheldon's character impacts L\P

In the episode where Sheldon teaches Penny Physics

- The main goal of Penny was to impress Leonard (very nice story idea)

- So she asks Sheldon to teach her Physics which he does :p

- But in the ending scene where she tells the big Physics dialogue it looked like she was trying to mock him rather than trying to impress him.

- It looked like Sheldon and Penny won the match , but the problem was that Leonard did not know what was going on , he was not playing the match

- A good ending would have been Leonard recognizing the fact that his girlfriend tried to learn Physics for him and appreciating it. ( this was what I was expecting at the start of the episode :p)

- But the writers were like--who cares about all that, see Sheldon is so funny , see Sheldon is so funny

So as a result the goal that was set at the start was not accomplished.

The episode was very funny but still it felt incomplete to me

What actually baffled me was that the same writes were able to focus on all the characters previously

because a similar kind of storyline was done previously in season 1 - Leonard's birthday episode

- Penny wanting to do something nice to Leonard, S\P plot , L\H plot

But the difference was that sweetness was delivered at the end the episode . So as a result that episode felt complete as all the goals were accomplished

I posted this is some other thread also , but I felt I should post is here also as this is more appropriate thread

True, Jim is so incredible as Sheldon they are guilty of overusing the character. A big part of the shows meterotic rise is down to the popularity of Sheldon, I don't think that can be denied. I certainly started watching because of him. He was totally captivating, the way he delivered his lines in that dead pan way was like nothing I'd ever seen on a sitcom.

But I see what you are saying. Even though I am a massive Sheldon fan, even I got a bit pissed off by his overuse. During late S2 -3 they totally neglected Leonard and had Sheldon doing everything. It got a bit ridiculous to be honest. The L/P relationship, the first time round was a little thin on the ground and I think dedicating so much time to Sheldon had something to do with why. Still great shows!

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i rember that episode! I also remember saying to myself WTF after watching the end of it because they totally went in the opposite direction with everything. The point was to try and bring penny and leonard closer together (at least this is what i thought) by having penny become more interested and active with what he does. In the end it seems that they made sheldon tell penny something she didn't understand as another attempt to insult him and his work. Then when she finally says it everyone around is just like "huh?" The point of the entire episode was just thrown out... did not seem to help the L/P relationshiop at all...

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True, it was all about the scenes with Sheldon. They did a lot of that and they paid for it with the shenny phenomenon. Some fans thought she was going to end up with Sheldon, even I wondered in S2 what the heck they were doing. They really didn't think it through and had some repairs to do. I like where they are right now, they are more real. There were times in the past when they didn't make sense but this season has been very positive for L/P IMO.

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I totally agree, i love where L/P is at right now. Penny maturing, hopefully leonard getting a bit more secure now that hes heard ILY, and their successful "beta test" all seem to pointing towards good things. I really wish the next 3 episodes actually showed some interaction between the two... *sigh* two months of waiting here we come

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I recall penny saying "things are looking good," when Leonard asked about it. It was about pointing out each others faults and kind of laughing it off. They didn't actually change anything about eachother and it ended up as more of a joke than anything. Something that brought them closer together

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how was the beta test successful? what did it resolve?

other than giving leonerd something to say i'm sorry for wtf?

There were only two things that were successful about the Beta test and both were for Penny:

1. Penny determined that Leonard really did love her and not just the sex. When they went out on their first date she asked him if he missed her only because of the sex.

Penny: You see me all the time. You sure you just don’t miss the sex?

Leonard: Well, yeah, sex with you is pretty great. Have you ever tried it?

That was the wrong answer. What followed was her "go slow" period where she made him go with out sex for four months. During that time Leonard was as faithful as a sheep dog and Penny started bragging that she had no fear of Leonard either hurting or cheating on her. She knew she had complete control.

2. Penny most likely decided that she would not breakup with him again, which should have been a no-brainer considering she nearly went crazy without him during season 4. When Leonard finally was allowed sex with her, he promptly tried to propose which caused her commitment alarms to ring. But much to many of the fans surprise, she did not break-up with him. They ended the season with Penny holding his hand while watching Howard's space launch. And their relationship has been getting better with each episode of season 6.

For Leonard the "Beta Test" was pure hell but he is getting a payoff now that the test is over.

Edited by BangerMain
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There is little doubt that the curve for the L/P relationship is going upwards at the moment. They have managed to stick together even though plenty of arguments have stirred their relationship, which shows the true passion and love they share towards each others. Now, with the ILY, Leonard finally knows how Penny feels about him, which has been probably his biggest issue towards Penny. Throughout Leonard's childhood and youth he has never received any caring or love by a female... His mother was distant, and he hasn't had any women in his life who has actually told him that they love him. Now, he can actually relax and thrive in this position, and probably show alot of confidence around Penny, which is needed!

However, what I do not like, is that they don't seem to be interacting them more after this ILY scene, and we have to wait so long.... "Make hay while the sun shines" is a saying, and I honestly think they should continue with more L/P interactions after this big moment!

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i feel like you just don't like this character and nothing we say is really gonna change your opinion. Nothing wrong with that, just becomes a pointless argument... You interpret things one way, we see it a different way, we'll just go round and round and round and round

Edited by C-Trayne
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i loved penny, ep1 i was hooked. now im dissapointed aggravated and sad. s5 penny should have been groveling at leonerds feet to forgive her.

insted he jumps hoops, and apologizes for things that are her fault. leonerd is insecure about the ship because of pennys behavior,if she cant take responsibility for the damage she done.and make up for it,then 6x8 is an epic fail for leonerd.

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