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Leonard And Penny Shippers Thread (Possible Spoilers)


C-Trayne

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To steal a line "...I told you thusly". :)

 

I totally get that she would not be bulldozed on this issue (Also it is not that "she's getting the milk, why buy the cow"). It will have to be on her terms.

 

But again please note that when they are both themselves they are happy with each other. Counts for a lot.

 

Rock solid,.. until Lorre does that thing I read about.

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I may be completely wrong here but I don't see Leonard as being powerless in his relationship with Penny. He, just like her, has the greatest power of them all which is to walk away, to break up if their status does not satisfy him. Day in, day out, he chooses to stay without anybody putting a gun to his head. 

Now obviously, he is in love so breaking up would be extremely hard for him. But Penny is in love too, therefore so far they're equals. Even though it is true that they express their emotions in completely different ways (Leonard is almost too open while Penny is pathologically closed off), neither of them has the advantage here. 

 

The thing about Leonard is that he is so good at looking like the victim. Not only because of the puppy eyes but also because he is attracted to somewhat damaged, emotionally constipated people whose behaviours contrast with his "wuv me" attitude : he chooses to live with Sheldon when he could probably afford an apartment on his own and while many others would rather eat broken glass than try to adhere to the weird clauses of the roomate agreement; he elects to be in a relationship with Penny who may never tolerate to be as visibly vulnerable to him as he is to her, etc. But again, nobody is forcing him. He is a full grown homunculus who, when pushed, is perfectly capable of defending himself or fighting back (like when he took advantage of the presence of Penny's father to toy with her or when he decided no longer to abide by Sheldon's rules after the middle-of-the-night fire drill).

 

Excellent point.  I will add one more person, who is probably the reason he is attracted to emotionally constipated people:  his mother.  I've always thought the reason Leonard can tolerate and even like Sheldon is that Sheldon is so much like Leonard's mother.  I had never connected it to Penny, though. 

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 I think Leonard forcing Penny to make the next move is his way of saying 'I'm tired of taking all the risks in this relationship, If you want more it's time for you to stick your neck out.' I also think that Leonard made a mistake saying he wanted to move in with Penny in the next episode. I think it would have been better if he'd asked to stay while he found a new place. I think Penny would have asked him to stay before he found one, or Sheldon would have asked him back to forstall Amy. In either case he would have been a stronger position.

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You articulate people. :)

That they choose to stay together without compulsion is the key. It rebuts the chauvinistic arguments sometimes deployed here. In so much as characters have free will these two are exercising their freedom to choose.

If she chooses to take him up on his offer, yay!

I agree Leonard made a mistake to force the accommodation issue. If he'd asked me, I would have informed him thusly.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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 I think Leonard forcing Penny to make the next move is his way of saying 'I'm tired of taking all the risks in this relationship, If you want more it's time for you to stick your neck out.' I also think that Leonard made a mistake saying he wanted to move in with Penny in the next episode. I think it would have been better if he'd asked to stay while he found a new place. I think Penny would have asked him to stay before he found one, or Sheldon would have asked him back to forstall Amy. In either case he would have been a stronger position.

 

 

 

I am waiting for Leonard to man up and reject Penny the way she has rejected him in the past. I am not looking for the big break up. Just a small indent or fight that makes Penny realize she should not take Leonard for granted.

 

 

.

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Excellent point.  I will add one more person, who is probably the reason he is attracted to emotionally constipated people:  his mother.  I've always thought the reason Leonard can tolerate and even like Sheldon is that Sheldon is so much like Leonard's mother.  I had never connected it to Penny, though. 

Absolutely. There is no doubt in my mind that Beverly (and probably the rest of the Hofstadter family) has something to do with that. Leonard is used to being around emotionally impaired people. That is what he knows and, ultimately, seeks. Possibly because he needs to be needed. 

 

To me, the Penny/Sheldon analogy runs quite deep ; they're both genuinely nice people who mean well but who can have a very child-like view of the world and find it difficult to cope with strong emotions and/or change.

They're self-centered like children are, namely without any intent to harm or hurt anyone : they just think the world revolves around them most of the time. Very innocently, they believe that it is other people's duty and pleasure to satisfy them (Penny used to assume that her job was to let Leonard make her happy while Sheldon considers people should feel honoured to drive him somewhere).They're kids who think mommy and daddy have nothing else to do but  attend to them. 

Furthermore, they're both scared shitless of change. They don't like when they are made to move out of their comfort zone, when something challenges the status quo : whenever Leonard makes a step forward with Penny, she freezes then runs away. Same thing when someone tries to alter Sheldon's routine.

Ultimately, they cannot cope with big things and big feelings : with Sheldon, it translates into an inability to admit, identify and accept his own emotions (he is "very fond of Amy"... Seriously ? Most of us know or suspect that what he feels should very probably be called love but he just can't see/say it). Meanwhile, Penny is very comfortable with casual relationships and uninvolved interactions but the moment it gets overwhelming (i.e. serious), she looks for the exit door. 

 

They're on opposite sides of the educational spectrum but emotionally, they're the same, a.k.a. weirdoes. And Leonard, for all his protestations, loves it and always comes back for more. If he is anybody's victim, he is a victim of himself. 

 

I am waiting for Leonard to man up and reject Penny the way she has rejected him in the past. I am not looking for the big break up. Just a small indent or fight that makes Penny realize she should not take Leonard for granted.

I don't think Penny takes Leonard for granted, especially not since the Alex incident. Most of the time, she is just secure in her relationship (and sometimes a little smug, that's true). 

 

It did take her a while to admit that she loves Leonard but she did not delay it to make him suffer. Her holding back was not part of some strategy to ensure his devotion. She is just emotionally retentive when it comes to big things. What was she supposed to do ? Say "I love you" back just to make the situation less awkward ? Even if she was not sure she really loved Leonard ? For my money, that would have been much worse and, bizarrely, more cruel. 

Same thing with the proposal : she definitely could have coped better (i.e. not freak out like somebody had tried to murder her in her sleep) but again. Was she supposed to say yes to make Leonard happy ? God knows I am no relationship expert but I do not think "well, he asked and I panicked so I said yes, basically out of pity and surprise" is the best foundation for a lasting, happy marriage. 

The whole cohabitation thing is almost textbook proof of that : she is going to allow Leonard to stay so he doesn't feel rejected but, ultimately, she is going to feel trapped and "plot" with Sheldon to make it all go away. 

 

Now, we can all agree that she probably needs to talk to a shrink or something because, let's face it, the girl has issues the size of the Kilimandjaro. But there is no intention to hurt. I do not think there is really any need for Leonard to "man up" : he is a man alright, any additional testosterone would be superfluous at that point.

He knew what he was getting into when he rekindled their relationship (he asked her out in spite of having thought it through, poor soul) : he knew Penny is very attractive and that guys would circle around her which would make him jealous; yet he asked her out. He knew she had failed at saying "I love you" the first time around and would probably not find it any easier for the redux; yet he asked her out. He knew she has a tendency to freak out and run when the going gets tough; yet he asked her out. He knew she can be as emotionally mature as a tantrumy three-year-old; yet he asked her out. He knew she has insecurities in weird places; yet he asked her out. He knew she had got a Cookie Monster tattoo; yet he slept with her (but that's slightly different). 

 

He (and we) cannot blame her for things he did to and by himself. Though the episode was very funny, that's something that bothered me the first time I watched The Ornithophobia Diffusion : on his non-date with Penny, Leonard basically took his revenge for things he would choose to do/allow when they used to date. She never asked him to do/allow these things nor did she coerce him. Apparently, she did not even know that he did not like doing/allowing them. Like the big boy that he is, Leonard chose a course of action and ended up not liking parts of it. Tough titties ! Don't be petty and feel victimised because you made yourself do stuff you didn't like !

That, if anything, is manning up.

 

PS Sorry for this unbearably long post. I'll try to be more concise in the future.

Edited by Chiara
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Chiara your posts sound as sweet as your name sounds....

 

but I am getting the feeling that you are a little bit biased towards Penny and Sheldon...and no offense to you

and I am not saying you are blaming one character more than the others....but I don't think any of the characters have any intent to hurt or harm anyone... 

 And neither do I think that Sheldon and Penny are very innocent.....

 

There are many occasions where Penny has taken Leonard for granted ... or mistreated him....

 

Penny on many occasions has given relationship advice to others...but she never applies those to her relationship....

 

Yes Leonard asked her out even thought he knew what dating her can be like...but I guess you could apply the same to Penny also....Leonard asked her out....but she did'nt have to say yes...she knew he gets insecure...she knew he can be pushy...she knew he can be jealous.....she knew he likes to talk about their feelings....she knew he was very smart and educated (well apparently she forgot it for some time :p).......... yet she said yes .

 

And I'm not saying Leonard is faultless or anything....but I can't say that Penny is some sweet innocent angel...

Edited by vasu
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Chiara your posts sound as sweet as your name sounds....

 

but I am getting the feeling that you are a little bit biased towards Penny and Sheldon...and no offense to you

and I am not saying you are blaming one character more than the others....but I don't think any of the characters have any intent to hurt or harm anyone... 

 And neither do I think that Sheldon and Penny are very innocent.....

 

There are many occasions where Penny has taken Leonard for granted ... or mistreated him....

 

Penny on many occasions has given relationship advice to others...but she never applies those to her relationship....

 

Yes Leonard asked her out even thought he knew what dating her can be like...but I guess you could apply the same to Penny also....Leonard asked her out....but she did'nt have to say yes...she knew he gets insecure...she knew he can be pushy...she knew he can be jealous.....she knew he likes to talk about their feelings....she knew he was very smart and educated (well apparently she forgot it for some time :p).......... yet she said yes .

 

And I'm not saying Leonard is faultless or anything....but I can't say that Penny is some sweet innocent angel...

Firstly, thank you :)

 

Secondly, oops ! I really did not mean for my post to read like I was somehow absolving Penny of any wrongdoing and blaming Leonard for all the bumps and mishaps their relationship has gone through.

 

Penny has many, many, many faults, the main of which are that she can be terribly smug, remarkably insensitive and immensely selfish. But those are made perfectly obvious on the show. They are, in my opinion, very much emphasised.

Same thing goes with Sheldon : his excentricities, for lack of a better word, are shown to be unequivocally annoying, in spite of their whimsical charm.

Leonard's flaws, on the other hand, are hidden under a very thick layer of adorableness : he is the teddy bear with the « wuv me » tee shirt so it is quite harder to see what he does wrong or what he is responsible for.

In my opinion, the stories and characters are engineered (consciously or not by the writers) in such a way that all the compassion and empathy are naturally drawn towards Leonard. He deserves a huge chunk of it (possibly 80%) nevertheless the rest is undue, I think.

It really was not my intention to seem like I thought he is the bad guy while Penny and Sheldon are as pure as the driven snow. He isn't and they aren't.

As a matter of fact, I very much like Leonard as a character (he is in my top two). But I like him precisely because he is not some sort of professional martyr who is just too sweet for his own good. He is much more than that : he is the guy who tried to find a way to maintain his long-distance relationship with Pryia and date (and make out with, hopefully) another girl simultaneously; he is the guy who slept with Raj's sister in spite of the agreement he had with Howard; he is the guy who did not want to go apologise to Sheldon (his best friend to whom he, and the other two, lied for three months, falsifying data) because he had an opportunity with Penny; etc. None of this negates all the great things he does all the time; it just adds to them. It makes the character more complex, more bizarre and more in tune with the bunch of oddballs he hangs out with.

He is an incredibly sweet guy. He is a forgiving soul. He is great friend, boyfriend, husband and daddy material. He is a gentle and thorough lover (or so Sheldon heard). But he is also a bit of a playa ! And a bit of a liar ! And I enjoy it. Just like I enjoyed the time when the Fantastic Four mocked Zac and Penny called them out on it : it showed that the bullied can become bullies when given the right oppportunity and incentive.

Basically, I think Leonard is much tougher, more capable, than he is given credit for and that it should be factored in when trying to figure out what he could/should do in relation to Penny (or any other character).  

 

I just tried to balance the whole thing out... But I may have gone too far the other way. Sorry ;)

Edited by Chiara
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 I think Leonard forcing Penny to make the next move is his way of saying 'I'm tired of taking all the risks in this relationship, If you want more it's time for you to stick your neck out.' I also think that Leonard made a mistake saying he wanted to move in with Penny in the next episode. I think it would have been better if he'd asked to stay while he found a new place. I think Penny would have asked him to stay before he found one, or Sheldon would have asked him back to forstall Amy. In either case he would have been a stronger position.

I agree. I think though he planned the next time he got mad at Sheldon was to storm off and to move in with Penny. L/P conversation the previous week with Sheldon gave him the idea. He thought Sheldon would be okay with the idea of Amy moving in and knew Amy would be all for it. In your scenerio Sheldon would have been forced to talk about not wanting Amy moving in and couldn't have used Penny as an excuse. 

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@ Chiara

 

Hey., No need to be sorry ....these are just our opinions.... :)

 

Anyways on the sympathy towards Leonard's part ... I am not quite sure if I think of it as same as you...some times I agree..sometimes I don't.....because I always thought the writers mostly shower their sympathy towards Sheldon either its through audience or the characters.......but I think there are many occasions where actually Leonard should have been the object of sympathy...from both the audience and the characters...but was given none....like in season 3 finale or the fire drill episode....

 

I think sympathy from another character gathers more audience sympathy.,,.....rather than a character suffering because of a bad thing done be other character , which most of the cases in BBT does not go well because they mostly play it for laughs.....

 

see the difference between season 3 finale , season 3 premier , 6.02....

Edited by vasu
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Firstly, thank you :)

 

Secondly, oops ! I really did not mean for my post to read like I was somehow absolving Penny of any wrongdoing and blaming Leonard for all the bumps and mishaps their relationship has gone through.

 

Penny has many, many, many faults, the main of which are that she can be terribly smug, remarkably insensitive and immensely selfish. But those are made perfectly obvious on the show. They are, in my opinion, very much emphasised.

Same thing goes with Sheldon : his excentricities, for lack of a better word, are shown to be unequivocally annoying, in spite of their whimsical charm.

Leonard's flaws, on the other hand, are hidden under a very thick layer of adorableness : he is the teddy bear with the « wuv me » tee shirt so it is quite harder to see what he does wrong or what he is responsible for.

In my opinion, the stories and characters are engineered (consciously or not by the writers) in such a way that all the compassion and empathy are naturally drawn towards Leonard. He deserves a huge chunk of it (possibly 80%) nevertheless the rest is undue, I think.

It really was not my intention to seem like I thought he is the bad guy while Penny and Sheldon are as pure as the driven snow. He isn't and they aren't.

As a matter of fact, I very much like Leonard as a character (he is in my top two). But I like him precisely because he is not some sort of professional martyr who is just too sweet for his own good. He is much more than that : he is the guy who tried to find a way to maintain his long-distance relationship with Pryia and date (and make out with, hopefully) another girl simultaneously; he is the guy who slept with Raj's sister in spite of the agreement he had with Howard; he is the guy who did not want to go apologise to Sheldon (his best friend to whom he, and the other two, lied for three months, falsifying data) because he had an opportunity with Penny; etc. None of this negates all the great things he does all the time; it just adds to them. It makes the character more complex, more bizarre and more in tune with the bunch of oddballs he hangs out with.

He is an incredibly sweet guy. He is a forgiving soul. He is great friend, boyfriend, husband and daddy material. He is a gentle and thorough lover (or so Sheldon heard). But he is also a bit of a playa ! And a bit of a liar ! And I enjoy it. Just like I enjoyed the time when the Fantastic Four mocked Zac and Penny called them out on it : it showed that the bullied can become bullies when given the right oppportunity and insentive.

Basically, I think Leonard is much tougher, more capable, than he is given credit for and that it should be factored in when trying to figure out what he could/should do in relation to Penny (or any other character).  

 

I just tried to balance the whole thing out... But I may have gone too far the other way. Sorry ;)

 

What a beautiful summation on the character of Leonard.

 

Leonard is the hero of this tale, the nucleus around whom all the other characters revolve, at least in the beginning. TPTB have made Leonard very sympathetic for the audience, he is the person that is torn between the geek world  (Sheldon) and the carnal (Penny). But a duality has developed in the character because of this. We are supposed to believe he is this hapless loser in love on a quest for this unattainable woman. What an underdog. Yet Leonard has a higher score rate with attractive, high success women then most of the sitcom characters on TV. You know that the writers seem to live vicariously through Leonard.

 

The fact is the most admirable thing about Leonard is his devotion to Penny, which in real life would make little sense. They have never explained why Leonard loves her so much when he has access to women just as beautiful who are more talented, educated and sophisticated. Yes, he thinks she is hot but if it was just for the sex, well, he has hit that over a hundred times, if he were the average guy when Penny gave him the slightest problem, it would be "Been there, done that". We are to believe that Leonard does not realize just how successful he has been with other women nor understand that he is considered a "catch". Penny knows this totally and becomes fearful when another woman gets with in hailing distance of him.

Edited by BangerMain
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The fact is the most admirable thing about Leonard is his devotion to Penny, which in real life would make little since. They have never explained why Leonard loves her so much when he has access to women just as beautiful who are more talented, educated and sophisticated. Yes, he thinks she is hot but if it was just for the sex, well, he has hit that over a hundred times, if he were the average guy when Penny gave him the slightess problem, it would be "Been there, done that". We are to believe that Leonard does not realize just how successful he has been with other women nor understand that he is considered a "catch". Penny knows this totally and becomes fearful when another woman gets with in hailing distance of him.

 

I couldn't agree more about the writers living vicariously through Leonard : he is their homeboy !

As for his somewhat inexplicable devotion to Penny, I think it stems from two things :    

  • he is attracted to tough, insular people (thanks for that, Beverly) who do not spend their time fawning over him;  

  • while Leonard by himself may be a catch, once in situ he is a tad less appealing. Whoever dates him has to deal with Sheldon, Raj and Howard on an almost daily basis; whoever dates him has to accept his lifestyle (regular trips to Comic Con, to the comic bookstore, to a virtual thief's house, to the ER, etc); whoever dates him has to handle the Hofstadter clan and considering what we've seen of Mama Hofstadter, I dread to see what the rest of them are like.

     

None of the women who have been interested in Leonard so far fits the bill, aside from Penny.

Pryia was tough and insular but she did not really accept Leonard's life : she did not get along with his friends, aside from her own brother, tried to make him trendier and attempted to terminate his friendship with Penny.

Leslie couldn't stomach Sheldon.

Alex, while we know very little about her personality, has a very hard time coping with Sheldon and accepting his ways : the moment he did something creepily Sheldon-y (talk to her about sex), she reported him.

I cannot remember exactely what the other members of the L. Hofstadter fan club were like but they all ended failing at taking Leonard as he is.

Meanwhile, Penny accepts Leonard as a whole, warts and all. His friends are her friends (even the weird giraffe); she tries to participate in their activities (Halloween parties, Halo nights, Sheldon's plays and games); she helps them out (got Howard a girlfriend, kicked a bully, kills spiders, sings Soft Kitty). She managed something no other girl had before her : she made herself a member of their group.

I believe you are absolutely correct when you write that Leonard, originally, was the only character who was on the fence, caught between his geeky personality and his desire to see what was going outside of his world. And he is, to a certain extent, destined to stay on the fence. I do not think he'll ever stop being a geek nor does he want to be just that for the rest of his life. Penny, so far, is the only girl who has accepted this aspect of him : she tries to make him fit in her world but she also makes the effort of fitting in his. I don't think there really are that many women, or men for that matter, out there who would be so completely ok with it and not, at some point, try to convince him that it is time for him to throw away his toys (and let go of Sheldon).

From the start, Penny was not freaked out/intimidated by Leonard and his cohort. No small feat considering that one would sexually harass her on a regular basis, one wouldn't talk to her and the other two spent a night tidying up her apartment, unbeknownst to her, while she was sleeping...

 

I think Penny and Leonard are each other's catch. But not anybody else's considering their shortcomings ;)

Edited by Chiara
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Suddenly the pool here got very deep. :)

My contribution is that we need to shout out to the writers, who diversely imbue these characters with such traits that allow complex readings yet collegiately maintain plausible coherence. Leonard and Penny were originally an odd romantic coupling in a slightly risky sitcom. And eye candy.

Makes you think.

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I agree. I think though he planned the next time he got mad at Sheldon was to storm off and to move in with Penny. L/P conversation the previous week with Sheldon gave him the idea. He thought Sheldon would be okay with the idea of Amy moving in and knew Amy would be all for it. In your scenerio Sheldon would have been forced to talk about not wanting Amy moving in and couldn't have used Penny as an excuse. 

I think the whole fight was spontaneous. I just think that he should have asked if he could stay with Penny while looking for another place. I think either Penny would have asked him to stay before he found another place, or Sheldon would want him back (Friendship Contraction 5-15 almost exactly a year earlier). Amy wanting to be Sheldon's room mate just sped up the process.  In the three likely results, (in order of preference) A. Move in with Penny, B. Move Out, C. Sheldon ask's him back, Leonard decides. 

Edited by eirwinrommel
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I am waiting for Leonard to man up and reject Penny the way she has rejected him in the past. I am not looking for the big break up. Just a small indent or fight that makes Penny realize she should not take Leonard for granted.

 

 

.

He'd be a fool if he did. Know when to take 'yes' for an answer.

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Not really sire how I felt about tonights episode from the L/P standpoint. I missed the first half of the episode thanks to work so I don't wanna make any assumptions but I do wish it was kind of ended better... I fell like the whole situation was left open

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Not really sire how I felt about tonights episode from the L/P standpoint. I missed the first half of the episode thanks to work so I don't wanna make any assumptions but I do wish it was kind of ended better... I fell like the whole situation was left open

 

It was, but I think overall it was pretty positive.  Instead of flipping out, Penny agreed to let him move in despite her misgivings, but it was clear she wasn't ready for it.  When Sheldon came over to tell her he was freaked that Amy wanted to move in and Leonard needed to come back, he made a remark that she should "break his heart" and throw him out and Penny replied that she didn't want to do that because she loves him, she's just not ready for moving in yet.  I liked the way they handled it; Amy blew up at Sheldon in a most impressive and logical manner (she really does have the patience of a saint when it comes to that man) and the whole thing, while left open for future exploration, went back to status quo in a manner that didn't seem incredibly silly and/or forced.  And Penny reiterated that she loves Leonard, which was great. :)

Edited by Europa
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Yeah, I wasn't sure about the whole "Penny not wanting Leonard to move in" thing when I read the taping report. I absolutely loved the way they worked it out with Penny basically stating while she loves Leonard, she't not ready for the moving in step yet, but didn't say anything because she didn't want to hurt him. I can also see this as part of why Leonard turns over the marriage proposal to Penny. Sort of an I'm ready, let her figure out when she's ready type of thing.

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Yeah, I wasn't sure about the whole "Penny not wanting Leonard to move in" thing when I read the taping report. I absolutely loved the way they worked it out with Penny basically stating while she loves Leonard, she't not ready for the moving in step yet, but didn't say anything because she didn't want to hurt him. I can also see this as part of why Leonard turns over the marriage proposal to Penny. Sort of an I'm ready, let her figure out when she's ready type of thing.

Yeah at first I thought "Old Penny", but that short scene with Sheldon was like the writers were saying, don't worry, Penny still loves Leonard, she is just not ready to move in with him yet.

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Yeah at first I thought "Old Penny", but that short scene with Sheldon was like the writers were saying, don't worry, Penny still loves Leonard, she is just not ready to move in with him yet.

What I would really, really, really, love would be for the writers to have an episode where something happens(sorry for the vagueness here, but since we don't know why, we can't know what would trigger what follows) and as a result Penny explains to Leonard why it was such a struggle for her to take those serious relationship steps with Leonard, when she absolutely knew he loved her and she absolutely knew she had very strong feelings(if not love)for him. I realize we've had hints, but we don't actually have an actual reason for her reticence.
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I really loved the nonchalent way Penny told Sheldon that she loves Leonard in tonight's episode that was so cute!  Glad she is getting more comfortable saying those words.  I just wish she have been honest and mature enough to tell Leonard her feelings about him moving in from the start instead of whining to Sheldon about it.  She definitely has some emotional maturing to do just like he does, but they're on their way. :)

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What I would really, really, really, love would be for the writers to have an episode where something happens(sorry for the vagueness here, but since we don't know why, we can't know what would trigger what follows) and as a result Penny explains to Leonard why it was such a struggle for her to take those serious relationship steps with Leonard, when she absolutely knew he loved her and she absolutely knew she had very strong feelings(if not love)for him. I realize we've had hints, but we don't actually have an actual reason for her reticence.

Yeah, I would like to see that too. Something good that would answer why she is that way, instead of a Wack-a-doodle like Sheldon.

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