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Leonard And Penny Shippers Thread (Possible Spoilers)


C-Trayne
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Fair enough  - I should have written character. But without rehashing the whole Penny thing  - which has been done to death not that long ago -  I cant see how the character can be "damaged". Certainly in the show her cohort are unaffected and the love of her life has never cared a jot.

 

If you are saying the audience thinks less of her in an ongoing sense, then i am saying they might want to get used to the idea that people are imperfect. She has never been malicious, she was nice to Priya and made accommodation for Leonard while it devastated her; and people do drink. Its just because she departed from a stereotype that she gets opprobrium, I think. One should not  get one's role models from popular entertainment. Look to ones parents or carers. They are there 24/7, TBBT is only 21 minutes.

 

Also maybe I can make an argument that the character was more a victim of the retooling of the show to give it legs for 6+ seasons, rather than being based on the model from the pilot. There is a similarity but how do you leave the door open to retain the premise of "our babies..." without going the partner swapping or blow-in lovers route that HIMYM and Friends went. How would I have felt about if she had actually gone through all the boys or  had long hook ups with drop-in characters - not so good I'd say - and the reunion would have been less heartfelt IMO.

 

I don't see what's so hard about the concept. Whether or not it's fair or rational, a lot people liked Penny better in the earlier seasons. Some of the changes and or additions to her character have not gone over well with fans. With Penny it sticks out more then the others because not only were the changes/additions stark compared to how she had been presented up until that point but they also seemingly happened overnight, which can also be jarring. The fact that even the creative team involved with the show were forced to take a step back, reevaluate her character and realized that they had to "fix" her or at least try should tell you something.

 

As for the audience vs Leonard in this equation, it's a moot point. Leonard's character has pretty much always had and probably always will have an intrinsic bias towards Penny that the shows audience won't necessarily share. Besides, most audiences don't take their ques on how they should feel about a given character in any show based on how another character may feel regardless of how much that other characters hates or loves the character in question. This is because the audience is usually privy to more information about the character in general and on an instinctual level recognizes that the one character's biases is always in play.

 

You may be right that Penny's character has been a victim of a show that had to find ways to extend or retool the storyline, but at the end of the day that's on the writers and it still hurt her character, moreso than any of the others.  

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I don't see what's so hard about the concept. Whether or not it's fair or rational, a lot people liked Penny better in the earlier seasons. Some of the changes and or additions to her character have not gone over well with fans. With Penny it sticks out more then the others because not only were the changes/additions stark compared to how she had been presented up until that point but they also seemingly happened overnight, which can also be jarring. The fact that even the creative team involved with the show were forced to take a step back, reevaluate her character and realized that they had to "fix" her or at least try should tell you something.

 

As for the audience vs Leonard in this equation, it's a moot point. Leonard's character has pretty much always had and probably always will have an intrinsic bias towards Penny that the shows audience won't necessarily share. Besides, most audiences don't take their ques on how they should feel about a given character in any show based on how another character may feel regardless of how much that other characters hates or loves the character in question. This is because the audience is usually privy to more information about the character in general and on an instinctual level recognizes that the one character's biases is always in play.

 

You may be right that Penny's character has been a victim of a show that had to find ways to extend or retool the storyline, but at the end of the day that's on the writers and it still hurt her character, moreso than any of the others.  

The damage they did to the Penny character in seasons 3-5 and a little in 6, really can not be repaired. As an example, her saying that their relationship is boring in 6.02, would take her readdressing the comment and saying it was in error and that would never happen in the show, so it is permanent, like every other bad thing done or said by her character. It is really too bad, because I like her character.

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I am terribly sorry for I fear I am going to repeat some of my earlier posts but what changes are we talking about ? Factual changes or changes in perception ? 

 

My understanding is that there has not been that many factual changes in Penny's behaviour or personality between seasons 1 an 5, just a difference in presentation and therefore perception.

"Bad" Penny's characteristics were already present in "Good" Penny : they were just not emphasised in the same way.

 

Season 1 and 2 Penny is prone to drinking when she is upset or bored : she does it in The Maternal Capacitance and The Bath Item Gift Hypothesis

Season 1, 2 and 3 Penny does prove to be sexually liberated when she feels like it (or is inebriated) : she falls into bed rather quickly with David in The Bath Item Gift Hypothesis, she almost has drunken sex with Leonard in The Maternal Capacitance and she has a rather interesting flashback of her high school years in The Staircase Implementation

Season 1, 2 and 3 Penny can be bitchy when angry : she pretty much crushes Howard's soul in The Killer Robot Instability and she fights with Sheldon in The Panty Pinata Polarisation.

 

The "Bad" Penny elements have always been there : the only difference is the way the writers emphasised them after she became "the girl who broke Leonard's heart". 

During the first couple of seasons, those aspects of her personality were presented as funny, cute or both. Her drinking was made to look festive more than depressing; her sexual proclivities were not often referenced but, when they were, it was mostly in passing and as a joke; her "bitchiness" was introduced as feisty and no-nonsensical. 

After the breakup, what truly changed was the packaging/branding : her drinking was made to appear pathetic or sad; her sex life became a hot topic both on the show and in the writers' room apparently, with all the lovely terminology that goes with it (Sheldon openly asking her if she is a slut; other characters displaying Victorian-like outrage to her naughty anecdotes; a whole episode titled The Skank Reflex Analysis -note that when Leonard slept with a woman he was not attracted to for money, the episode in question was not titled The Prostitution Paradigm or anything like that but a much more morally neutral The Benefactor Factor...-), her occasional bouts of defensiveness or capriciousness were presented as a character flaw more than anything...

 

After she broke up with Leonard, the writers had to make Penny atone for hurting the story's hero. However they could not really attack her character in any profound way, due to her also being the protagonist's soulmate. So instead of introducing new truly damaging elements into her personality (e.g. viciousness or meanness), they exaggerated (almost exclusively in words; rarely in actions) certain characteristics of hers that had always been there and made her feel bad about those. 

 

While I have reservations about the moralistic tone the writers seemed to adopt when "punishing" Penny (after all, who cares with whom she sleeps  and how often, as long as she does it with consenting adults ? Whose business is it how much and why she drinks as long as she is not an alcoholic ?), there was a certain logic to her narrative penance : she went through the process of growing up and realising that the way she had behaved so far was OK for a 21-year-old happy-go-lucky girl but not quite so appropriate for a 25+-year-old woman with experience.

 

And, very importantly, as Nogravitasatall noted, she never meant any harm to anyone. The writers made a clear point of not introducing any malice into her character so, while they were busy flinging poop at her, she could remain "pure of heart" for the hero's return into her life, after somebody else took over the job of Leonard's main romantic antagonist.

Edited by Chiara
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Nogra was making a joke. You used the quote "I'm cute, I get by" from Penny, and Nogra indicated that the quote was about you, by implying that Nogra didn't know you were cute. I'm quite sure that Nogra is aware of the origin of the quote.

"English is tough"------by kunal Nayyar in a gag reel.  :icon_razz:

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I am terribly sorry for I fear I am going to repeat some of my earlier posts but what changes are we talking about ? Factual changes or changes in perception ? 

 

My understanding is that there has not been that many factual changes in Penny's behaviour or personality between seasons 1 an 5, just a difference in presentation and therefore perception.

"Bad" Penny's characteristics were already present in "Good" Penny : they were just not emphasised in the same way.

 

Season 1 and 2 Penny is prone to drinking when she is upset or bored : she does it in The Maternal Capacitance and The Bath Item Gift Hypothesis

Season 1, 2 and 3 Penny does prove to be sexually liberated when she feels like it (or is inebriated) : she falls into bed rather quickly with David in The Bath Item Gift Hypothesis, she almost has drunken sex with Leonard in The Maternal Capacitance and she has a rather interesting flashback of her high school years in The Staircase Implementation

Season 1, 2 and 3 Penny can be bitchy when angry : she pretty much crushes Howard's soul in The Killer Robot Instability and she fights with Sheldon in The Panty Pinata Polarisation.

 

The "Bad" Penny elements have always been there : the only difference is the way the writers emphasised them after she became "the girl who broke Leonard's heart". 

During the first couple of seasons, those aspects of her personality were presented as funny, cute or both. Her drinking was made to look festive more than depressing; her sexual proclivities were not often referenced but, when they were, it was mostly in passing and as a joke; her "bitchiness" was introduced as feisty and no-nonsensical. 

After the breakup, what truly changed was the packaging/branding : her drinking was made to appear pathetic or sad; her sex life became a hot topic both on the show and in the writers' room apparently, with all the lovely terminology that goes with it (Sheldon openly asking her if she is a slut; other characters displaying Victorian-like outrage to her naughty anecdotes; a whole episode titled The Skank Reflex Analysis -note that when Leonard slept with a woman he was not attracted to for money, the episode in question was not titled The Prostitution Paradigm or anything like that but a much more morally neutral The Benefactor Factor...-), her occasional bouts of defensiveness or capriciousness were presented as a character flaw more than anything...

 

After she broke up with Leonard, the writers had to make Penny atone for hurting the story's hero. However they could not really attack her character in any profound way, due to her also being Leonard's soulmate. So instead of introducing new truly damaging elements into her personality (e.g. viciousness or meanness), they exaggerated certain characteristics of hers that had always been there and made her feel bad about those. 

 

While I have reservations about the moralistic tone the writers seemed to adopt when "punishing" Penny (after all, who cares with whom she sleeps  and how often, as long as she does it with consenting adults ? Whose business is it how much and why she drinks as long as she is not an alcoholic ?), there was a certain logic to her narrative penance : she went through the process of growing up and realising that the way she had behaved so far was OK for a 21-year-old happy-go-lucky girl but not quite so appropriate for a 25+-year-old woman with experience.

 

And, very importantly, as Nogravitasatall noted, she never meant any harm to anyone. The writers made a clear point of not introducing any malice into her character so, while they were busy flinging poop at her, she could remain "pure of heart" for the hero's return into her life. 

No I never meant malice, it was all in the perception of the character. Like you said how they wrote her character and the things that came out about her made her seem more trashy than before. The writers still haven't let that go either, the episode where they went to Disneyland had some more trash about her.

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I don't see what's so hard about the concept. Whether or not it's fair or rational, a lot people liked Penny better in the earlier seasons. Some of the changes and or additions to her character have not gone over well with fans. With Penny it sticks out more then the others because not only were the changes/additions stark compared to how she had been presented up until that point but they also seemingly happened overnight, which can also be jarring. The fact that even the creative team involved with the show were forced to take a step back, reevaluate her character and realized that they had to "fix" her or at least try should tell you something.

 

As for the audience vs Leonard in this equation, it's a moot point. Leonard's character has pretty much always had and probably always will have an intrinsic bias towards Penny that the shows audience won't necessarily share. Besides, most audiences don't take their ques on how they should feel about a given character in any show based on how another character may feel regardless of how much that other characters hates or loves the character in question. This is because the audience is usually privy to more information about the character in general and on an instinctual level recognizes that the one character's biases is always in play.

 

You may be right that Penny's character has been a victim of a show that had to find ways to extend or retool the storyline, but at the end of the day that's on the writers and it still hurt her character, moreso than any of the others.  

I said if you are saying the audience thinks less of her in an ongoing sense, then i am saying they might want to get used to the idea that people are imperfect. That's my value judgement showing. That's why I cant care about the "damage.

 

To my mind the writers used her situation as content for the show. It is in some sense a trade-off.  The "fixes" were required because the change in her situation had done its job and they could then go back the original premise with almost two more seasons under their belt. It is not unprecedented that creatives make interesting choices to extend a run and this was much more organic than the Dallas shower scene reset - if you want an example of jarring.

 

The moral element of their choice annoys some.

 

So they chose Penny rather Leonard as the sacrifical lamb. I dont know how well thought out it was but I think they picked a viable plan. If they had made Leonard look bad we would have been hearing the echo of the pathetic "we were on a break" from Friends. I assume too they thought it would be easier to rehabilitate Penny than Leonard because she was prettier.

 

my rationalisation.

.....

And thanks @Chiara for the research and the fast typing.

....

@ Vasu - yes a joke. I do have no idea if you are cute. I did not activate your webcam remotely. :) (this too is a joke - and something of nightmare - imagine :))

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I am terribly sorry for I fear I am going to repeat some of my earlier posts but what changes are we talking about ? Factual changes or changes in perception ? 

 

My understanding is that there has not been that many factual changes in Penny's behaviour or personality between seasons 1 an 5, just a difference in presentation and therefore perception.

"Bad" Penny's characteristics were already present in "Good" Penny : they were just not emphasised in the same way.

 

Season 1 and 2 Penny is prone to drinking when she is upset or bored : she does it in The Maternal Capacitance and The Bath Item Gift Hypothesis

Season 1, 2 and 3 Penny does prove to be sexually liberated when she feels like it (or is inebriated) : she falls into bed rather quickly with David in The Bath Item Gift Hypothesis, she almost has drunken sex with Leonard in The Maternal Capacitance and she has a rather interesting flashback of her high school years in The Staircase Implementation

Season 1, 2 and 3 Penny can be bitchy when angry : she pretty much crushes Howard's soul in The Killer Robot Instability and she fights with Sheldon in The Panty Pinata Polarisation.

 

The "Bad" Penny elements have always been there : the only difference is the way the writers emphasised them after she became "the girl who broke Leonard's heart". 

During the first couple of seasons, those aspects of her personality were presented as funny, cute or both. Her drinking was made to look festive more than depressing; her sexual proclivities were not often referenced but, when they were, it was mostly in passing and as a joke; her "bitchiness" was introduced as feisty and no-nonsensical. 

After the breakup, what truly changed was the packaging/branding : her drinking was made to appear pathetic or sad; her sex life became a hot topic both on the show and in the writers' room apparently, with all the lovely terminology that goes with it (Sheldon openly asking her if she is a slut; other characters displaying Victorian-like outrage to her naughty anecdotes; a whole episode titled The Skank Reflex Analysis -note that when Leonard slept with a woman he was not attracted to for money, the episode in question was not titled The Prostitution Paradigm or anything like that but a much more morally neutral The Benefactor Factor...-), her occasional bouts of defensiveness or capriciousness were presented as a character flaw more than anything...

 

After she broke up with Leonard, the writers had to make Penny atone for hurting the story's hero. However they could not really attack her character in any profound way, due to her also being Leonard's soulmate. So instead of introducing new truly damaging elements into her personality (e.g. viciousness or meanness), they exaggerated (in words much more than in actions) certain characteristics of hers that had always been there and made her feel bad about those. 

 

While I have reservations about the moralistic tone the writers seemed to adopt when "punishing" Penny (after all, who cares with whom she sleeps  and how often, as long as she does it with consenting adults ? Whose business is it how much and why she drinks as long as she is not an alcoholic ?), there was a certain logic to her narrative penance : she went through the process of growing up and realising that the way she had behaved so far was OK for a 21-year-old happy-go-lucky girl but not quite so appropriate for a 25+-year-old woman with experience.

 

And, very importantly, as Nogravitasatall noted, she never meant any harm to anyone. The writers made a clear point of not introducing any malice into her character so, while they were busy flinging poop at her, she could remain "pure of heart" for the hero's return into her life, after somebody else took over the job of Leonard's main romantic antagonist.

You might notice that in season four (pre Prya) Penny perceived Leonard going to the fundraiser (4-15) as a possible threat and sabotaged his appearance by messing up his tie to make him look stupid. However once she found out about Mrs. Latham she realizes there was no threat so she backed off and joined with the others in mocking him. You didn't really see the drunken, depressed Penny until Prya showed up, because she recognized her as a real threat (Prya was, as Amy pointed out a much better match for Leonard than Penny. If this were a society that still used arranged marriages {race aside} their parents would have been signing the marriage contract by episode 17.).

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I was puzzled by the perception of her as trampy in seasons four and five.  It's very possible, based on what's shown during the episodes, that she was celibate during those seasons.   She admits to having sex with Zack (in The Alien Parasite Hypothesis 4.10), but that had to  have been in season three, probably just prior to The Lunar Excitation 4.23, as this is before  her season 4 time with Zack (The Justice League Combination).   In that episode, she says that her and Zack are not her and Zack.   This doesn't mean that they didn't have sex, but that is the impression the show gives.   

 

From the material shown, the only point where she might have had sex in season four would be during The Toast Derivation, 4.17.   Where she states "let's go find a heiny to bite" after Amy and Bernadette cam over to take her dancing.  That doesn't mean she found someone and had sex with them, it could just be a reference that she now wanted to go dancing(as she was reluctant, claiming she was fine with Leonard and Priya and her own situation)   to take her mind off of Leonard, after seeing the snowflake.   There isn't any time, except for The Roommate Transmogrification 4.24 (where they did the drunk and slutty Penny) that they either show or reference her in bed with anyone.  

 

Of course, in season five we find out she didn't have sex with Raj (I'll skip all the discussion we've had about that), and there is again, no reference to her being in bed with anyone until The Launch Acceleration 5.23, with Leonard's mid-cotius proposal.  Although, if Sheldon hadn't interrupted the Leonard-Penny make-out session in The Friendship Contraction, where the power was out, they may have ended up in bed.  

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I chose trampy instead of slutty because I equated slutty with sleeping around. I think she was trampy because we found out some seriously strange things about her, that she told the girls, her drinking got worse, and what she did to Leonard that night she came to him drunk was trampy, because she came to him to get comfort sleeping with him then told him it was mistake and even was a little mean to him, very selfish.

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I chose trampy instead of slutty because I equated slutty with sleeping around. I think she was trampy because we found out some seriously strange things about her, that she told the girls, her drinking got worse, and what she did to Leonard that night she came to him drunk was trampy, because she came to him to get comfort sleeping with him then told him it was mistake and even was a little mean to him, very selfish.

 

Makes sense to me.  I can understand the nuance there.    My comment was based on how Penny was seemingly sleeping around in Seasons 1-3 (and times prior) but wasn't seemingly a bad thing, just her being her.  But, when it started to be emphasized as a problem,  she wasn't sleeping around.    

 

Her going to Leonard that night didn't bother me so much as her actions the next day.   She could have been kinder in dealing with Leonard, but again, it may simply be the situation.  I can't think of an example of her going back to sleep with someone she was in a long term relationship with, who still had feelings for her, prior to Leonard.    Leonard is a bit different from Penny's prior relationships  in terms of his experience and the level of his feelings for her.  She simply may not have known how to handle the situation.   This is not a defense, just an observation.   

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I was puzzled by the perception of her as trampy in seasons four and five.  It's very possible, based on what's shown during the episodes, that she was celibate during those seasons.   She admits to having sex with Zack (in The Alien Parasite Hypothesis 4.10), but that had to  have been in season three, probably just prior to The Lunar Excitation 4.23, as this is before  her season 4 time with Zack (The Justice League Combination).   In that episode, she says that her and Zack are not her and Zack.   This doesn't mean that they didn't have sex, but that is the impression the show gives.   

 

From the material shown, the only point where she might have had sex in season four would be during The Toast Derivation, 4.17.   Where she states "let's go find a heiny to bite" after Amy and Bernadette cam over to take her dancing.  That doesn't mean she found someone and had sex with them, it could just be a reference that she now wanted to go dancing(as she was reluctant, claiming she was fine with Leonard and Priya and her own situation)   to take her mind off of Leonard, after seeing the snowflake.   There isn't any time, except for The Roommate Transmogrification 4.24 (where they did the drunk and slutty Penny) that they either show or reference her in bed with anyone.  

 

Of course, in season five we find out she didn't have sex with Raj (I'll skip all the discussion we've had about that), and there is again, no reference to her being in bed with anyone until The Launch Acceleration 5.23, with Leonard's mid-cotius proposal.  Although, if Sheldon hadn't interrupted the Leonard-Penny make-out session in The Friendship Contraction, where the power was out, they may have ended up in bed.  

For that matter they may have gotten back together in season four (4-13) if Raj hadn't interrupted them. But that would have prevented the Prya arc so probably not. Of course Leonard could have pointed out that if Raj hadn't interrupted their (Leonard and Penny's) coitus, he wouldn't be going out with his sister.

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I was puzzled by the perception of her as trampy in seasons four and five.  It's very possible, based on what's shown during the episodes, that she was celibate during those seasons.

I believe that is exactely what the writers wanted to achieve : give Penny the reputation of a "loose woman" without going as far as showing any evidence of it. 

 

In French, we have an expression that goes "le poids des mots, le choc des photos" (the weight of words, the shock of pictures), quite equivalent to the English "a picture is worth a thousand words". And it is undeniable that there is a difference between describing something with words and showing it in image : while words are more evocative, they tend to be less forceful, less vivid, less "real" than visual depictions. 

 

In Penny's case, the writers used words to damage her reputation and images to rescue it.

By pinning the scarlet letter on her and making her feel bad about it, they punished the girl who broke the hero's heart.

By not backing her bad reputation with any onscreen evidence (by which I mean actual, visual proof, such as guys coming in and out of her apartment and life), they did not "ruin" the woman with whom the protagonist is destined to be in love forever.

It was a neat-ish "pendulum" trick they devised in order to fulfil two narrative obligations (make the antagonist atone / save the protagonist's lover) that were, at the time, mutually exclusive due to them concerning the same character. 

 

Furthermore, the "bad reputation" schtick they devised to make Penny feel bad about herself was also used to fuel her personal growth process, mostly in regards to Leonard : it stripped her of some of the overconfidence she once had and made her value him that much more. 

 

You didn't really see the drunken, depressed Penny until Prya showed up, because she recognized her as a real threat (Prya was, as Amy pointed out a much better match for Leonard than Penny. If this were a society that still used arranged marriages {race aside} their parents would have been signing the marriage contract by episode 17.).

With Pryia, the pendulum struck again, with full force. 

On paper, she was perfect : accomplished, beautiful, dignified, elegant. In reality, she was a witch : she could not stand Leonard's lifestyle, his friends, his style, his feelings... Quite frankly, at times, it looked like she did not even like Leonard.

 

But the writers were crafty : they kept Penny unaware of Pryia's faults so she could feel suitably unworthy while we, the audience, were given proof after proof that Pryia was so not the right woman for our hero. This way, Penny got her punishment and we (as well as Leonard) got further confirmation she was "the one", like nobody else could be. 

Edited by Chiara
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I believe that is exactely what the writers wanted to achieve : give Penny the reputation of a "loose woman" without going as far as showing any evidence of it. 

 

In French, we have an expression that goes "le poids des mots, le choc des photos" (the weight of words, the shock of pictures), quite equivalent to the English "a picture is worth a thousand words". And it is undeniable that there is a difference between describing something with words and showing it in image : while words are more evocative, they tend to be less forceful, less vivid, less "real" than visual depictions. 

 

In Penny's case, the writers used words to damage her reputation and images to rescue it.

By pinning the scarlet letter on her and making her feel bad about it, they punished the girl who broke the hero's heart.

By not backing her bad reputation with any onscreen evidence (by which I mean actual, visual proof, such as guys coming in and out of her apartment and life), they did not "ruin" the woman with whom the protagonist is destined to be in love forever.

It was a neat-ish "pendulum" trick they devised in order to fulfil two narrative obligations (make the antagonist atone / save the protagonist's lover) that were, at the time, mutually exclusive due to them concerning the same character. 

 

Furthermore, the "bad reputation" schtick they devised to make Penny feel bad about herself was also used to fuel her personal growth process, mostly in regards to Leonard : it stripped her of some of the overconfidence she once had and made her value him that much more. 

 

With Pryia, the pendulum struck again, with full force. 

On paper, she was perfect : accomplished, beautiful, dignified, elegant. In reality, she was a witch : she could not stand Leonard's lifestyle, his friends, his style, his feelings... Quite frankly, at times, it looked like she did not even like Leonard.

 

But the writers were crafty : they kept Penny unaware of Pryia's faults so she could feel suitably unworthy while we, the audience, were given proof after proof that Pryia was so not the right woman for our hero. This way, Penny got her punishment and we (as well as Leonard) got further confirmation she was "the one", like nobody else could be. 

Thank you for the past couple of posts. I very much enjoy them. 

 

In retrospect, Penny and Leonard 1.0 didn't really work all that well in many respects. Penny still appeared to have an extended group of friends, much like those that attended her Halloween party. I'm particularly thinking of the episode where Leonard tries to learn about football. Generally, it seemed that either they were planning on breaking them up or once they got them together, they didn't know what to do with them.

 

I also still feel that Penny had to get used to this new person and situation she was drawn to. I really don't think she expecting to fall for a nerdy scientist. I'm sure she was expecting to have relationships with handsome actors. When she quoted Star Wars dialog to Leonard, it probably frightened her when she realized what that suggested about her, and Leonard's response underlined it. The quote was an unthinking response on her part, and signaled that she was becoming part of Leonard's world. The interesting thing is that after the breakup, she essentially merged with Leonard's world. When they got back together, she was truly a member of Leonard's social circle. We've seen no evidence of her former friends in her current social life. Everyone other than the group, she has work colleagues and school colleagues, but no friends. 

 

Following the epic narrative, Penny had to suffer until she accepted her destiny, and earn the hero's love. She was shown in detail what she threw away during Leonard's affair with Priya. Each time she tried to deny her destiny as Leonard's mate, she suffered more. In 6.2, she finally began to accept where her life was. Alex just confirmed it.

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I was puzzled by the perception of her as trampy in seasons four and five.  It's very possible, based on what's shown during the episodes, that she was celibate during those seasons.   She admits to having sex with Zack (in The Alien Parasite Hypothesis 4.10), but that had to  have been in season three, probably just prior to The Lunar Excitation 4.23, as this is before  her season 4 time with Zack (The Justice League Combination).   In that episode, she says that her and Zack are not her and Zack.   This doesn't mean that they didn't have sex, but that is the impression the show gives.   

 

From the material shown, the only point where she might have had sex in season four would be during The Toast Derivation, 4.17.   Where she states "let's go find a heiny to bite" after Amy and Bernadette cam over to take her dancing.  That doesn't mean she found someone and had sex with them, it could just be a reference that she now wanted to go dancing(as she was reluctant, claiming she was fine with Leonard and Priya and her own situation)   to take her mind off of Leonard, after seeing the snowflake.   There isn't any time, except for The Roommate Transmogrification 4.24 (where they did the drunk and slutty Penny) that they either show or reference her in bed with anyone.  

 

Of course, in season five we find out she didn't have sex with Raj (I'll skip all the discussion we've had about that), and there is again, no reference to her being in bed with anyone until The Launch Acceleration 5.23, with Leonard's mid-cotius proposal.  Although, if Sheldon hadn't interrupted the Leonard-Penny make-out session in The Friendship Contraction, where the power was out, they may have ended up in bed.  

 

Thanks for reiterating one of my pet peeves, that Penny was a "skank" in the shows reality. Compared to other sitcom twenty-somethings, like Robin on HIMYM, Penny is "shown" to be almost demure. Penny's sexual escapes are mostly talk, the number of men we have seen her with is less than the supposed loser in love, Leonard. We have counted the totals on several threads before. We have seen her in bed with exactly two men and she only has had sex with one of them. The other men were just spoken about. I have always thought that TPTB never wanted the fans to see Penny as having broken faith with the man she will spend happily ever after with.

 

As Chiara stated, the writers "punished" Penny for the sin of hurting Leonard in season 4, which was all part of a plan to kill time before the final merger of their lives which we see this season.

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Tensor, Chiara and  BangerMain  you all make very valid points. I would like to add a few things. I think of Leonard and Penny's relationship in three parts. The first was the first season when Leonard was in love at first sight and Penny had a thing for him during the episode with Leslie Winkle.(You could tell she was happy when things didn't work out). That bombed out after one date when Leonard brought over the community college books. The second part is when they started going out after the north pole trip. The Star Wars I love you that wasn't returned by Penny was the beginning of the end. What caused the end to come even quicker was as someone else pointed out she didn't have any other friends (at least that you saw) but the guys. She really needed a girlfriend at this point. (A side note. Waitressing is sort of a high turnover job so it's not that surprising she had no friends.)  The third(and hopefully final) part started for me at least in season 5 the 100th episode. I don't think Leonard noticed since he was dating Priya how much Penny was part of his inner circle. When he looked over and saw Penny with Amy and Bernadette I think he realized that they could be a couple again. It certainly didn't hurt that Amy and Bernadette were enthusiastic when he ask Penny to dinner. They were also there when Penny started having doubts(The first Alex episode with Amy pointing out Penny's jealousy).

In regards to Penny being "punished" most of that to me was to make up for Leonard's earlier suffering. As to Penny being a "skank I'm like BangerMain it seems to be all talk. 

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I don't think all the "how many guys she slept or she is drunk" jokes are any kind of punishment to her character.... I think they are just cheap jokes which the writers became accustomed to....because we never see any kind of resolution to either of those two stories.......we have seen her drink more in season 5 than in season 4...more often so when there is a girls scene...again because they could not write an quality jokes...

 

the only punishment was when Leonard began dating Priya .... of course the consequences of her suffering were neutralized again when they made her think about breaking-up Leonard again in 6.02....again I wonder why the girls did not ask Penny why she was upset the entire time Leonard was with Priya in that episode.....frankly those episodes made her character extremely shallow..and it was'st even funny and the storyline was repetetive ...and as summarized by Penny , I found it quite "boring storyline" too...but I have to give credit to writers because it would allowed for groundwork to be laid for some good stories going forward....

 

The number one rule in sitcom is to make the main characters likable...... even when they do mistakes we should able to see their side....and not let cheap jokes ruin the characters...

 

season 3 finale being the biggest blunder ..... as I have stated many times.....I can totally understand Penny's side of the story when she came back to Leonard for that night...and it was an excellent point made by the writers that Penny could not tolerate dumb guys anymore.....but the stuff after that was pretty pretty poor.....cheap jokes taking priority than characterization....the reason of her breaking up with Leonard was to not lead him on .....here she does the exact thing and shows no regret......it was the moment to show "how much she cared about him" which was missed by the writers......at-least  a simple scene like in the season 2 finale would have been enough... with Penny saying "I'm sorry Leonard" would have quite easily bonded her to the audience .....

 

@Nogra..... I still don't understand many of your posts :p

Edited by vasu

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vasu. Its not u - its me. tensor recognised it as joke but he kindly did not comment on its quality. My follow up missed its mark too, so i will desist.

Wrt to the critical review of the penny/leonard history...

For me they are back together and that is fine. The behaviours depicted have been within normal human parameters. They are exaggerated for comic effect sometimes but i have never been other than entertained, even by the horror of the s4 finale.

Nothing depicted has been outrageous or illegal. Adults in a liberal democracy have interacted. I dont get the moral scorekeeping that seems to skew against women.

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Thanks for reiterating one of my pet peeves, that Penny was a "skank" in the shows reality. Compared to other sitcom twenty-somethings, like Robin on HIMYM, Penny is "shown" to be almost demure. Penny's sexual escapes are mostly talk, the number of men we have seen her with is less than the supposed loser in love, Leonard. We have counted the totals on several threads before. We have seen her in bed with exactly two men and she only has had sex with one of them. The other men were just spoken about. I have always thought that TPTB never wanted the fans to see Penny as having broken faith with the man she will spend happily ever after with.

I agree wholeheartedly. The writers did their damnest to keep Penny "pure" in the audience's eyes, if not ears.

 

It went even futher than showing her in bed with only two (actually one) of the alleged dozens of guys she has had intercourse with. Unless I am mistaken, the writers have always tried to spare the audience the "shock and horror" of watching Penny making out with somebody else than Leonard and enjoying it : in The Justice League Recombination, Zack kissed Penny but she kept her eyes on Leonard, both embarrassed and apologetic; what transpired between her and Raj was never shown in any way, shape or form; in The Codpiece Topology, both Leonard and Penny make out with other people in the hallway but their attention is on each other; etc.

The only exception I can think of was in The Fuzzy Boots Corollary when Leonard interrupted Penny kissing her then boyfriend goodbye. However, that was in the third episode of the first season, long before Penny was made aware of Leonard's feelings for her.

 

The moment Leonard made his emotions known to Penny, she became "his" and could therefore not be seen "betraying" him with anybody else.

 

God I hate spellcheck. It should be chiara not chairs

Shame, I liked my new nickname !

Edited by Chiara
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I don't think all the "how many guys she slept or she is drunk" jokes are any kind of punishment to her character.... I think they are just cheap jokes which the writers became accustomed to....because we never see any kind of resolution to either of those two stories.......we have seen her drink more in season 5 than in season 4...more often so when there is a girls scene...again because they could not write an quality jokes...

 

the only punishment was when Leonard began dating Priya .... of course the consequences of her suffering were neutralized again when they made her think about breaking-up Leonard again in 6.02....again I wonder why the girls did not ask Penny why she was upset the entire time Leonard was with Priya in that episode.....frankly those episodes made her character extremely shallow..and it was'st even funny and the storyline was repetetive ...and as summarized by Penny , I found it quite "boring storyline" too...but I have to give credit to writers because it would allowed for groundwork to be laid for some good stories going forward....

 

The number one rule in sitcom is to make the main characters likable...... even when they do mistakes we should able to see their side....and not let cheap jokes ruin the characters...

 

season 3 finale being the biggest blunder ..... as I have stated many times.....I can totally understand Penny's side of the story when she came back to Leonard for that night...and it was an excellent point made by the writers that Penny could not tolerate dumb guys anymore.....but the stuff after that was pretty pretty poor.....cheap jokes taking priority than characterization....the reason of her breaking up with Leonard was to not lead him on .....here she does the exact thing and shows no regret......it was the moment to show "how much she cared about him" which was missed by the writers......at-least  a simple scene like in the season 2 finale would have been enough... with Penny saying "I'm sorry Leonard" would have quite easily bonded her to the audience .....

 

@Nogra..... I still don't understand many of your posts :p

 

 

In an interview Johnny stated he wanted Lenny to end up together at the end in the final season 10. But he also said they would continue to have break ups or fights for humor and story line. I think he said something more like "THERE IS NO HUMOR IN PERFECT RELATIONSHIPS"  

 

10 Seasons is what everyone is saying. Is that a predetermined plan for only 10 Seasons??? Is there a secret packed among the actors to do only 10 Seasons? Or is that a Dream to do at least 10 seasons?

 

.

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What Johnny is talking about is that he doesn't want the Leonard/Penny relationship to just be smooth sailing from here on out but at the ultimate end of the show, he wants it to be clear that these two are forever.

 

10 seasons is the number that most of the cast is hoping the show lasts for and given that it's popular enough it could very well happen.

Edited by DPK

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