Ship Zone The Shamy Thread! (Season 6 Edition-Spoilers)

[CaitAmber]

Koops is just oozing brilliance today. Oh my Cod. 

[AndyRenee]

Koops is just oozing brilliance today. Oh my Cod. 

 

She is the goddess of analyzing. It's just so amazeballs.

[Razberrypie]

Money, not weight...

 

Taking a stab at our currency? Don't worry pounds, I've got your back

[CaitAmber]

Taking a stab at our currency? Don't worry pounds, I've got your back

 

I love British currency because it actually MAKES SENSE. The 10 cent coin (dime) and the 5 cent coin (nickel) are backwards in Canadian currency. You would think that 10 cent would be bigger than 5. Not in Canada! Those 5's are 2-3 times bigger than the poor dimes. 

Edited June 27, 2013 by CaitAmber

[rachelshamyfan]

Over here though the 5 pence coin is smaller than the one penny and two penny and the 10 p coin is bigger than the 20 p coin

Edited June 27, 2013 by rachelshamyfan

[CaitAmber]

...... Why can't the sizing make sense?  

[koops]

It does with the Euro. The Euro is flawless. LOL.

[Nogravitasatall]

My 2c. We don't have any.

We had copper 1 & 2c pieces, but they cost too much to make so we stopped them. The US has a movement to drop pennies but the manufacturer and heritage fans lobby against it. It cost more than a penny to make a penny.

we also had silver 50c that are now worth $8.

Cheers

Edited June 27, 2013 by Nogravitasatall

[CaitAmber]

The Canadian penny got retired this year, so a few of them are in my coin collection now. Since they're extinct.  

[phantagrae]

I don't really have an opinion on currency except that I always want more of it...

 

I have been collecting the special quarters the US mint has been making for the last several years.  I've got both mint releases (Denver and Pennsylvania) for many of the quarters, but I am missing the "P" quarters for some of them.

I keep a list and everything...

[koops]

Am I the only one guffawing at all this talk of "penny"? LOL.

[CaitAmber]

Am I the only one guffawing at all this talk of "penny"? LOL.

 

You kill me. 

[AndyRenee]

Am I the only one guffawing at all this talk of "penny"? LOL

 

We don't call you the jester for nothing    

Edited June 27, 2013 by AndyRenee

[Nogravitasatall]

Am I the only one guffawing at all this talk of "penny"? LOL.

I never had a penny. They were called one cent pieces. And Leonard has a Penny but she probably cost more than that to make.

*groans at self, but moves on*

[Lionne]

I'm on the fence here. I feel like "denial" and "not being willing to admit something" come extremely close to splitting hairs; to me they are almost the exact same thing.

 

I agree that Sheldon was working towards asking Amy to be his girlfriend prior to Stuart forcing him to speed up his time table. However, when Amy did start dating Stuart, Sheldon was still going to go about playing his games until Penny brought him up short. To me, the way that Sheldon unfriended everyone on Facebook when they kept suggesting to him that he had feelings for Amy was a classic exercise in denial. But then again, you could call this "not being willing to admit how he feels" to his friends. I don't know...but I'm not seeing the difference.

 

Also, I find the way Sheldon finds insanely complicated ways to deal with and manipulate Leonard to be "tortured" in a certain sense. Just like his inability to tell a simple white lie - he has to come up with a "tortured" and complicated story involving an Irish drink home, Maggie McGerty and hair from the monkey lab. What is going on in someone's mind to push them through such tortured lengths?

 

I also think that his practice of "kholinar," and his basic desire to be more Spook-like - to deny and suppress his emotions in an attempt to control himself and rid himself of them - is a tortured sort of behavior in its own right. I always found his: "how can someone not know how they feel?" to show just how out of touch Sheldon is with his emotions, because that is such an extremely naive thing to say. People's emotions are complicated and often conflicted, and they spend time "hanging in there" while they try to sort out how they really feel and deal with inner confusion and mixed emotions about big issues in their lives. For Sheldon to express this "how can you not know?" when I think he's clearly not known his own feelings at times - and I'm sorry, but someone who isn't tortured emotionally does not take a secret break in the middle of the day to play hackey sack in the basement in order to cope - to me shows his level of innocence and emotional ignorance. To me, that comment does not indicate someone who knows themselves and has utter confidence in understanding themselves, as I feel many people interpret it. It does, however, show why Sheldon needs to go slowly through things - I do agree that with Amy he's feeling things he never has before, never really wanted to, and still lacks some of the maturity on how to deal with them. Which is why I do agree that Sheldon is buying time and he buys time a lot - but he does so to figure out how he feels, because it's not very in touch with it, and frankly, he's admitted as much many times on the show. I do feel that this certain innocence and ignorance comes out of denial - sometimes. Inexperience at others, and just the way that Sheldon is hard wired as well.

 

But I often equate this to the delayed adolescence thing too, and why sometimes Sheldon seems the wisest and most mature, and other times the most selfish and least mature. He's grown up in some areas but stayed immature in others, and what drives me a bit nuts with him, and what I like about Amy because she kicks him there and does move him forward, is that some of this is downright willful. Such as his mother trying to warn him that she's not going to be able to take care of him forever, and that he's an adult, and him suggesting he might be a new species, and still only in the toddler stage -  that's evidence of a willful desire on Sheldon's part to deny growing up in certain areas.

 

I think that's the core of almost everyone's annoyance with him, those times when he just refuses to do certain grown up things. So I see him as someone who tries to suppress and deny his emotions - who idealizes Spock, who wants to be that emotionless way, and I also see him as someone who tries to deny maturing and acting like a true grown up. (Giving up his attempts to learn to drive, for example.) At the same time, there was the young person who grew up intellectually into a giant, and who focused all of his forward movement in growing up and becoming the alpha male in that direction - and who pursued doing so at the expense of the other areas. And who now even sometimes hopes that this towering genius will put him on a pedestal of sorts so that other people will "revere" him and take care of those others needs, keeping that other part a child. He loves it when people do that stuff for him - Ramona, his mother, Leonard, Penny, etc. I feel that he keeps "buying time" to try to keep himself in this ideal state, and in fact that he goes to great lengths - and even can be a total asshole, such as when he blackmailed Priya and Leonard by using their relationship against them to get his way with the Roommate Agreement - and that it's really not sustainable. A part of him might know this, and a part of him might actually be curious about growing up - I think you could see that in his eyes during the D&D scene with Amy - but that a combination of fear and uncertainty and not really knowing what he'll become if he does change keeps him making only a snail's progress forward.

 

I don't know how long Amy's patience will, or should, hold out with that. We'll see.

 

I don't think that Sheldon is tortured in the way that he's sometimes portrayed in fan fic. But I also think that OCD is a form of self-torture, not to mention a severe anxiety disorder which suggests he does have some severe anxiety problems, but I do think there are some serious issues buried down in there. I think the truth is that Sheldon doesn't spend a lot of time reflecting on all of this. I think Sheldon's mind is usually taken up with science, and atomic weight and a vast universe spinning around his head, and prime numbers and this whole cosmic vision which only a genius Theoretical Physist can visualize, understand and hold onto, and that he really spends most of his time in this world, or in his imagination about comic book and Sci-Fi heroes and such to "relax" in his free time, and that he really doesn't spend a lot of time reflecting on "what is Amy feeling" or "why was Penny mad today" or "I wonder if Leonard's feelings are hurt" or "is my behavior affecting the people around me for good or ill, and how can I be a better or more loving person or boyfriend." I don't really like fics in which he becomes obsessed with how Amy is feeling, why she agrees to be his girlfriend, how can he be a better boyfriend and etc, because I don't think Sheldon's mind spends a lot of time dwelling there - in fact I think he gets anxious and uses suppression and denial when he does because it gets confusing and he doesn't like to be confused. Or, when it gets too much, he uses hackey sack, TV, comic books, or something else to distract him until the emotion passes.

 

But what I think is interesting is that when Sheldon *must* deal, he surprises others and even himself by finding out he can. Perhaps some little corner of his mind has quietly continued to chew on things, considering asking Amy to be his girlfriend, changing his personal view of himself, or, as we have seen, manifesting themselves as Orlocks and other things in dreams to clue him in on how he is feeling. I mean, another part of him pesters himself through the denial - "I couldn't poop this morning" - or deals with it somewhere. But he has dual, competing personal sides - the side which wants to go off into space with Spock to celebrate his genius, and then the side which breaks down and clings to his mother, sobbing, because he LOVES her (emotion) and can't let her go. That's a split, an internal paradox within him which can't resolve itself easily, and leads to him being unpredictable - you don't always know which way he's going to go in the long run - but it cannot be easy to live with.

 

But funny you've been here talking about this while I have been elsewhere saying this:

 

The show has gone to great lengths to keep Sheldon's inner feelings about his sexuality and that kiss a secret. The best we can infer is from his tone of voice, the way he stepped up to "claim" her as his girlfriend, her hackey sack playing in the basement to "reset" his emotional turmoil, comments about sex being ridiculous and off-putting, which came to a point where it almost sounds like "the lady doth protest too much," and his turn around at starting D&D sex, seeing it through, and his manner in that moment. Two seasons after that kiss, and all we really know is that the idea of getting more sexually intimate in the relationship is something Sheldon "hasn't ruled out." A line which I like, because I, personally, think it's structure indicates Sheldon "hasn't" ruled it out, past tense - in that moment. If he was only thinking about it in that moment, when she point blank asks, he would say, "I'm not ruling it out," which would be present tense, or refer to the future. "Haven't ruled it out" indicates that it's been thought about in the past, that Sheldon has even had an inner monologue trying to talk himself down from an interest in it, and he hasn't been able to rule out the possibility. No matter how he has circled it, and we don't know how many times that is, but it's obviously been on his mind before, it's a possibility he hasn't been able to definitively say no to. He couldn't say that unless he had spent some time thinking about it previously - which backs up what he explained to Penny and Leonard. When Sheldon says, "I've been working on it," and cites progress made over the course of a year or more, it indicates that 1) he's been tracking his progress, actually consciously making an effort to progress, and had this in mind for quite awhile, maybe longer than a year, 2) he's got to be aware of a hell of a lot of internal issues that the show has shown us and hinted at are there, but we don't really know precisely how deeply they run and WHY, we just know they are definitely in there.

So what's the key to unlocking that? Amy's obviously making slow and steady progress, and Sheldon is too. Confronting him and finally letting him know, in an honest way, her feelings on the topic and pressing him for an answer, obviously opened some kind of door. I think that Amy telling Sheldon she wanted more - and him hearing it directly from her - was concrete information that Sheldon could hold onto, process, and then decide what to do with. Versus subtle flirting, eye rolling, pining, Penny's questioning, and etc, which was not working for Amy.

 

I love the person who said that the D&D scene seemed to show that Amy's sexual and awkward comments seem to be part of an outward show of bravado about sex when in reality she's really quite nervous, shy, and even timid about it, while Sheldon initiating the game, licking his lips, the way he moved the game forward into the realm he did indicates that his denial and dismissal of it seems to be covering up a certain interest and eagerness for it. I have ideas about what would move Sheldon further in this direction, and it's not necessary sexually experimenting, it's growing in his absolute trust of Amy and their relationship that I think would do it. Previously, I have wanted Sheldon to be the first one to blurt out, "I love you." Lately, I've been wondering what it would do to Sheldon, and to their relationship, if Amy was the first one to say it. I think Sheldon would be electrified - and in a good way, to hear Amy say "I love you." I kind of wonder if that'll be the final key to unlock Sheldon's door - if Amy tells him she loves him, and he believes her, will that dig underneath the arrogance and denial to the insecure and bullied and vulnerable man underneath, and be the key? Intimacy requires trust - complete trust - in the other person. Sheldon trusts Amy with a lot, but is that trust really complete yet, and would "I love you" from her be a major milestone in moving him there?

The professor is coming to believe so.

 

Anyway - so sorry, I know that this whole essay is intellectually sloppy. I feel I'm circling around a rather complex point, and Koops is as well. I think it's kinda the same point, but we're just circling the same thing from different directions. In any case, the whole thing about Sheldon wanting to be 100% sure (and can you be 100% sure? That is the problem) makes sense to me. What I'd like to see the show grapple with is the truth that there are no guarantees in life, there is never a way to be 100% sure. But you can come close, or have enough to make a leap of faith, and that's what I am talking about above with the "I love you," from Amy - that would help Sheldon move into the higher percentage of being sure about something, which as we know and agree, he needs in order to move forward. But it reminds me of a quote from Lemony Snicket:

 

“If we wait until we're ready, we'll be waiting for the rest of our lives."

 

That, I think, is the key of what Amy and others need to manage to press into Sheldon's brain as an idea to entertain, because Sheldon will never really be entirely ready - there is no way too be, that is the ideal of perfectionists and pursuit of perfection will always fail - and Amy should not wait for the rest of her life.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Lionne

[rachelshamyfan]

...... Why can't the sizing make sense?

Also our one pound coin whilst in size is smaller than the 50pence its much chunkier

[koops]

*not requoting Lio for conciseness  *

 

Let me preface by saying that I do not by any means suggest that Sheldon is normal after all, and doesn't have issues and fears… far from it. And he wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting if he were "normal". My point has more to do with the fact that Sheldon being Sheldon is more complex than simple explanations about him having a triggering event in his past (like bullying, being a genius or what have you) that makes him build walls to suppress his emotions. That a character can be complex without being darkly tortured as it often happens in fanfic.

 

However, I actually think the hackey sack in the basement is another example that he does know what he feels. He explained that to Howard and Raj quite clearly: he struggles in every day life, dealing with people and situations. He is very aware of that problem. The same way he is aware of his issues with physical contact that are getting in the way of having a physical relationship with Amy. But, again, knowing how or what he feels is different from knowing what to do about it or how to deal with it. So I don't think him saying "How can you not know how you feel?" means he's in denial about how out of touch with emotions he is. He doesn't know how to deal with all of this in a constructive and productive way and therefore resorts to 'resetting' because he doesn't have time or strength or enough information to deal with it in any other way at this point in time. In a way, his use of hackey sack, or Kohlinar, is similar to the way people use antidepressants or other drugs as a (hopefully) temporary buffer to deal with emotions until they can slowly work through things with CBT or what have you. It's a coping mechanism, rather than a denial mechanism. Even with the toddler thing, he doesn't say he will be a toddler forever but just that members of his "species" grow up much slower than others (and it's not totally surprising, giving how terrified of change he is). 

 

But, like you said, he probably shows those moments of extreme maturity and confidence because even if he doesn't deal with them head-on, the issues still simmer in the back of his mind, and, one day a a time, he chips away at different parts of what confuses him and is able to better deal with them when confronted directly. With Amy in particular, I think it is pretty obvious by now that he has made a conscious choice to try and make a change because of her (again, I think it was Jim that said this), rather than just ignore it all. And I think it's crucial to make the difference between changing "because of her" (as in the sense that she is the only one that triggers all sorts of interests and new emotions within him) and changing "for her" (as in the sense of giving her what she wants to make her happy).

 

I think that's the crucial difference between how he deals with Amy and how he deals with most things in his life. Is it really necessary that he adjusts to function within society the way a "normal" person does instead of just resetting playing hackey sack? Probably not. But is it necessary that he learns to act upon his emotions and to take risks when it comes to his relationship with Amy? If he wants to keep her in his life, especially as his girlfriend, yes he has to. I think the quest for Sheldon, but for anyone really, isn't so much to fix everything that's "wrong" with him but to fix or adjust the things that negatively impact the most important parts of his life, the ones he isn't willing to do without, and Amy is undoubtedly amongst the things at the top of that list.

 

As for the sexuality part, I totally agree with everything you said. And I never considered the ILY as a possible push that Sheldon needs to trust her enough to let go of his control. That maybe we all expect him to be freaked out by it when, in reality, the show has always shown that when confronted with the questions or the issues one would expect him to freak out on, he takes it on board maturely and confidently. That's a very interesting point you're making. 

 

On the other hand, though, we have late S6 Sheldon, which I find pretty inconsistent with pre 6x18 Sheldon and who would probably take the ILY as just another confirmation of Amy's worship and continue sitting on the laurels as a consequence. When 6x16 came out I was convinced things were going to change dramatically because Amy just proved herself to be absolutely flawless in that context, and Sheldon's expression when he turned around from closing the door and looked at her in awe ("I don't know what to say") was the moment where I thought: if he wasn't in love before, he sure as hell is now and he realizes how lucky he is. But no. Then they had to go and make him take her more for granted than he has ever done in their entire acquaintance. And then you have 6x23 come along which is so inconsistent with the previous 2-3 episodes. So I'm really asking myself, which Sheldon are they going to use in the future?

 

Regardless, Sheldon will make his moves even without being 100% sure, because he has done so in the past. He needs a little prod here and there to move along because he is SO cautious (and that's what Amy is great at… prodding him, not pushing him - and, to be honest, she is a bit his opposite in that sense: she jumps before she looks at times), but he needs to get to the point where he is close enough for the prodding to push him over the edge, rather than just pushing him a meter up the hill only to roll all the way backwards the rest of the way. Would the ILY do the trick? Maybe. I just feel like the scales way to tipped in his favor right now though, and that I definitely don't want an ILY from Amy coming without some form of balance being re-set in the eyes of the audience, or it will just further establish the idea that Amy's a doormat in this relationship. 

Edited June 27, 2013 by koops

[Guest DroneInTheSun]

I'm being overwhelmed by feels right now omg.

 

Literally nothing to add, going to bask in the glory that is the Loops OTP, except for re: the ILY. I've noticed a trend in fanfiction to have Sheldon completely panicking and/or needing time to say it back when Amy says the words and that's something I don't get at all. I'm in the camp that wants Sheldon to say it first. Actually it'd be for a nice plot twist to have Sheldon say "ILY" to Amy and then Amy would be the one... not freaking out but being literally overwhelmed by the weight of these words. 

[rachelshamyfan]

We may get the same reaction as the emergency contact, i think deep down she knows he loves her but to actually hear him say it will potentially be a big thing to her

Edited June 27, 2013 by rachelshamyfan

[koops]

I agree Lost, it'd be a nice twist to change things up a little to have Amy being the one chickening out about something for once. That's why I liked her so much in 6x23, there was that mixture of awkward/shy/touch-adverse Amy from S4 combined with that more emotional Amy from recent episodes and that nerdy Amy that existed in between. It's like they took the best of her and combined it all back together. I just really hope it wasn't a one-off occurrence. I don't think I want her to freak out, but I like it when they twist the relationship in unpredictable ways. I actually think that's one of my main annoyances with 6x18-6x21: it's so predictable to have jerk!Sheldon vs needy!Amy. 

[AndyRenee]

Team Loops definitely reign supreme! Amazing.

Regarding the ILY, I really can't picture it any other way than Sheldon saying it first. It would just be too sad if Amy said it first. 

I would also like to note I agree it would be interesting to see Amy chickening out for once. It'd be a nice way to add some change. 

Edited June 27, 2013 by AndyRenee

[rachelshamyfan]

Although Amy has a 4 year plan she's had to let (to a point) Sheldon dictate how fast the relationship is going and where its going, she can't risk saying it first and Sheldon "not being ready"

Edited June 27, 2013 by rachelshamyfan

[Guest DroneInTheSun]

I don't even think it's a case of Amy not wanting to say it because she's afraid to scare Sheldon. It's just that for all her words about intimacy, I don't really think she's ready herself. It's like with Penny. She's said for a long time that Penny's her best friend, but when Penny cried because of Leonard and Priya, Amy was extremely uncomfortable trying to console her friend. She says things but she has a hard time putting her words into actions. Somehow, Sheldon's the opposite. He doesn't say anything but he does things that show where his heart lies.

[koops]

I think it depends on the context (in terms of what is happening in that season or in the several episodes prior) and the situation. As things stand right now, no, Amy should most definitely not be the one to say it first, for many reasons (and him freaking out is the least important of these reasons). But, if the tables start turning, if Sheldon starts showing more of that compassionate, smitten nature that he used to have around her in the past, if something happens in Amy's life, personally or professionally, and he is there for her when she needs him... then I don't think it'd be all that terrible to have her say it first. It's just that, right now, she's done so many things to prove herself the perfect girlfriend and has received very little in return in recent times, that it would probably just turn into another confirmation for Sheldon to continue being self-centered because she loves him and puts up with anything. The worst thing they can possibly do is set this up so that it's a relationship where he can constantly take her for granted. That's what I liked about the earlier episodes this season: he was SCARED for once in his life, that he wasn't good enough for her. Where and how late S6 Sheldon suddenly came from, we will never know.

[AndyRenee]

All this conversation and the fact that I was just re-watching the episode with Wheaton in the Fwf made me think of a couple things. That episode has Penny getting Sheldon drunk. They've shown before how Sheldon reveals his true feelings when he is intoxicated. For example, he said I love you to Leonard. In this episode when Penny got him drunk he admitted that he was worried that she would leave him. He also admitted he was an egomaniac. I find it interesting because it shows how much he does care and that he is worried that she could get frustrated and just leave. It also shows how he does seem to have an awareness of how he can be with her and others. I think this was a set-up to show for later down the line when he said "it's a possiblity". That drunk part was showing he is aware of the issue and then later on they talked about him "working on it". Hopefully next season we'll see more action, rather than words about how he is truly working on being a better man for Amy.

This is definitely probably my longest post