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pepsiadikt

The Entire Premise Is Changing, Not Sure How To Feel.

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On second thoughts - please continue with your accusations occasionally. I'm okay with it, simply because I love reading the extremely articulate replies like the one above. Gives me joy to feel kindred spirits. :)

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Of course the show will wind down at some point, nothing lasts forever. I don't understand this obsession that more is better, that longer is better, and that this is the reason why the characters should never change. You are saying that by evolving the characters the story would get repetitive but how on earth are they going to tell new stories without evolving the characters and manage not to be repetitive? If anything, the point of evolution is exactly to tell NEW stories. You say the show is running out of ideas and people are getting bored of stagnant characters and then in the same post you complain that the characters are being developed too much. Your post is one big contradiction, I'm sorry. You do realize you cannot tell a story without change and that once a story is told of course it can't be told again and that even if the characters never changed and just sat around a table sprouting science jokes they would run out of science jokes sooner or later?

 

 

Nobody is afraid for the ships, that's not the reason we are defensive about them. We are just fed up of being looked down upon and being told that because we enjoy them we are part of that audience that somehow is ruining the show for the "pure" viewers who act like they somehow "own" this show more than others. That's why we get defensive of the ships. I do not watch ANYTHING for romance, never have. I've shipped one other couple in my life, for the same reason I ship Shamy: I just happen to really like Sheldon and Amy and their dynamic. I would have enjoyed them just the same if they had stayed friends, but I do find their blossoming romance incredibly interesting. Yet somehow I have to come here and be told that it's people like me who are ruining the show because the writers feel the need to cater to us. And then it always turns inevitably into a men vs women kind of argument of the same kind Sheldon has when he just doesn't want to understand that maybe there are other reasons why one might disagree with him than women being slaves of their hormones, or in this case, romance. That's why I get defensive. I'm sorry they're ruining Sheldon for you, I understand that's annoying. But, not aimed at you necessarily now, I'm going to quote Tina Fey here:

 

See this is what annoys me about your posts, you didn't even read what I wrote.

 

I am not agruing against them developing the characters at all. I'm not agruing against the ships. There are no contradictions in my post. I am talking about the end of the show and why I think the end is in sight. Each characters biggest hurdle is soon to be overcome. This is the entire crux of my post. Its not even related to what you have written.

Edited by Moonbase

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See this is what annoys me about your posts, you didn't even read what I wrote.

 

I am not agruing against them developing the characters at all. I'm not agruing against the ships. There are no contradictions in my post. I am talking about the end of the show and why I think the end is in sight. Each characters biggest hurdle is soon to be overcome. This is the entire crux of my post. Its not even related to what you have written.

 

Is the issue about what you, specifically, wrote in one specific post? The complaint is about the several dozen posts here which do argue against developing the characters, which do argue against ships, and which do call us a dumbed-down audience for favoring character development and/or certain ships. 

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The ships have nothing to fear. It's the science which will diminish as the seasons roll on. I know there are those who blame the decline of the show on the relationships, so I do understand what you are saying. But there are also those who defend the ships to the exclusion of all else.

 

The shows ratings are high but I agree with those who say the show is probably in decline now. This is not an attack on the ships at all. It's where the show is within it's potential life span. The jokes are becoming old, fans are complaining about stagnant characters and they are running out of fresh ideas. Even I managed to come up with the GPS thing. While the writers are really talented I think the peak may have passed. There's little nerdy stuff they can use now, that won't just seem repetitive to a more mainstream audience. Each character is solving their biggests 'hurdle' and once this is complete there's no story left to tell.

 

Howard is a prime example of this. His scenes are less appealing than the others because aside from a few details to iron out, there's nowhere to go with him. If developing the characters was going to take the show into the future, his and Bernadette's story would be sizzling hot and the most exciting factor on the show. It's not. Developing the characters is going to close the show down, not lenghten it and this is why I have moaned and resisted. (Sheldonite and proud!) If Raj loses his mutism and finds a partner his story is also done. Once Penny commits to Leonard completely and once Sheldon gets over his human intimacy issue it's the same thing. There's very little to do with them after that and it would get repetitive. We are seeing signs that all of these things are not too far away now. Then the show winds down. It will not survive marriage and children like they tried to do with Friends. They may try it, but I'm sure a lot of us will end up wishing they hadn't.

 

 

See this is what annoys me about your posts, you didn't even read what I wrote.

 

I am not agruing against them developing the characters at all. I'm not agruing against the ships. There are no contradictions in my post. I am talking about the end of the show and why I think the end is in sight. Each characters biggest hurdle is soon to be overcome. This is the entire crux of my post. Its not even related to what you have written.

 

How are the things I bolded out in the post above not a contradiction? You say

 

a ) The jokes are running old and the fans are complaining about stagnant characters

 

and 

 

b ) developing the characters (as they are doing now, solving their biggest hurdles) is going to close the show down and that's why you moan and resist

 

 

How is claiming that the fans are bored with stagnant characters and at the same time say that the show is winding down because they're being developed not contradictory? Stagnant characters don't develop. And how is saying that you moan and resist because otherwise the show will wind down not being against character development?

 

The part about the ships wasn't necessarily aimed at this particular post, but to the various posts in this thread in general.

Edited by spook
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I think the part you are not getting is that a rapid resolution of characters and storylines will hasten the end of the show.  Even though we know it is coming eventually the fear is getting there ahead of schedule hence the resistance to too much change too fast.

 

Take that into account with the fact that I am not sure Sheldon really had to go down this path because he is still funny without the relationship.  Now they are going to take him from point A to B.  Howard was developed very fast once they really started.

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To be honest, I'd rather the show ended quickly that got dragged out needlessly. There are already people complaining that Lenny is becoming ridiculous now and there is no way they'll have them marry any time soon, so I can see these people getting even more frustrated in the next season or so. I'd be happy even with 8 seasons. It's not like we're in season 3, this show's been on the air for 6 years now, and judging by how well it's doing I don't think they're going to run out of ideas for at least another 2 seasons.

 

As for Sheldon, you can't compare him to Howard. With all due respect to Howard, he isn't one of the main 3 and TBTB know that, that's why he was the first one to marry and all. They could give him those storylines because he is a beta character. The writers are very protective of Sheldon, there's no way they're going to develop him as fast as Howard. Just as they're not going to have Penny and Leonard settle any time soon. There's not going to be a rapid resolution where these three are concerned, it's going to be dragged out. I just hope they can strike a good balance and drag it out just enough to be satisfying without making it absurd.

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The writers are very protective of Sheldon, there's no way they're

going to develop him as fast as Howard. Just as they're not going to

have Penny and Leonard settle any time soon. There's not going to be a

rapid resolution where these three are concerned, it's going to be

dragged out. I just hope they can strike a good balance and drag it out

just enough to be satisfying without making it absurd.

 

Amen to that!

 

Now they are going to take him from point A to B.

 

I think you meant A to Z, or at least C. A to B is the slowest possible progress. :)

Edited by Pomita

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I meant that when they did commit to Howard they moved him along.  Shamy is more of a friendship than a romance right now.  They have a long way to go before they kick that into gear.

 

To be honest, I'd rather the show ended quickly that got dragged out needlessly.

 

 

See this is where it gets complicated.  I think most people would rather see it go out on top the problem is maintaing the quality of the show long enough to get to a satisfactory closure.  For instance, I am ready to see Lenny done but I don't want it this year I'd rather have it next year.  My ideal number of seasons for this show is 8 but I fear it will go 10 without any problem.  So now what do I want?  Do I want to drag out Lenny longer because I don't want them to introduce a less compelling storyline to replace it?  Do I still want it sooner and risk babies?  Will the audience sour on Penny if it is drug out longer and lead to lower ratings anyway?

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Just because SHAMY isn't haven't sex doesn't mean they aren't romantically involved.  What we may find just 'friendly' gestures, to Sheldon and Amy they are romantic and sweet.   I like the innocence of these two because its different than our normal tv couples.  Its jarring to see a relationship without sex in this era but its also refreshing because of the chemistry between not only  the characters but the actors as well.

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Just because SHAMY isn't haven't sex doesn't mean they aren't romantically involved.  What we may find just 'friendly' gestures, to Sheldon and Amy they are romantic and sweet.   I like the innocence of these two because its different than our normal tv couples.  Its jarring to see a relationship without sex in this era but its also refreshing because of the chemistry between not only  the characters but the actors as well.

 

It has nothing to do with sex and I would not classify Amy as innocent.  A friendly gesture is a friendly gesture.  There is no substitute for affection and romance even on a very innocent level.

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Given the actors re-upping on their contracts after next year, the show is going at least 8-9 years. Chances are it will go even 10. Problem is the quality will drop but corporate greed always wins out over common sense. It's a nice fantasy, of somebody in power saying: "Hey now, why don't we quit while we're ahead and go out on a high note instead of dragging everything out until the shows demise comes across more like a mercy killing". Realty though is something like this: "Lets milk this sucker for all it's worth, money money money money money money money.....MONEY!".

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See this is where it gets complicated.  I think most people would rather see it go out on top the problem is maintaing the quality of the show long enough to get to a satisfactory closure.  For instance, I am ready to see Lenny done but I don't want it this year I'd rather have it next year.  My ideal number of seasons for this show is 8 but I fear it will go 10 without any problem.  So now what do I want?  Do I want to drag out Lenny longer because I don't want them to introduce a less compelling storyline to replace it?  Do I still want it sooner and risk babies?  Will the audience sour on Penny if it is drug out longer and lead to lower ratings anyway?

 

I agree that Lenny is ready to wind up. I'd expect at least an engagement soon. And I have considered the 'less compelling storyline' I suspect you are thinking of. They will probably try to drag out the engagement for all it's worth. Then leave these two, in the background untouched for a while. That would take us up to 8 seasons nicely. Maybe 9. We might find number 10 a bit excuriating though. Kids couldn't really feature unless Leonard and Penny took the big apartment. Sheldon taking on Penny's. The writers have a difficult task ahead.

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Given the actors re-upping on their contracts after next year, the show is going at least 8-9 years. Chances are it will go even 10. Problem is the quality will drop but corporate greed always wins out over common sense. It's a nice fantasy, of somebody in power saying: "Hey now, why don't we quit while we're ahead and go out on a high note instead of dragging everything out until the shows demise comes across more like a mercy killing". Realty though is something like this: "Lets milk this sucker for all it's worth, money money money money money money money.....MONEY!".

 

Yup this is the question at hand. How far will they go? We find out in around April time (I am told) about extra seasons, so not long now.

Edited by Moonbase

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How are the things I bolded out in the post above not a contradiction? You say

 

a ) The jokes are running old and the fans are complaining about stagnant characters

 

and 

 

b ) developing the characters (as they are doing now, solving their biggest hurdles) is going to close the show down and that's why you moan and resist

 

 

How is claiming that the fans are bored with stagnant characters and at the same time say that the show is winding down because they're being developed not contradictory? Stagnant characters don't develop. And how is saying that you moan and resist because otherwise the show will wind down not being against character development?

 

The part about the ships wasn't necessarily aimed at this particular post, but to the various posts in this thread in general.

 

Ar Diem say it better than I. It's about the shows longevity. :icon_cool:

Point a) Was about the natural life span.

I was explaining why I think the show may have peaked. And the jokes are getting old is just one example. After 5 years the same style of jokes (Sheldon always freaking out, or Raj making an unwittingly gay comment) are looking a little worse for wear. I also stated that there was not much nerdy stuff left that a mainstream audience would appreciate. Another game is just another game to most people.

Point b. I believe resolving each characters biggest hurdle is a sign.

People are complaining about Raj and Penny being stagnant. So people rwant closure. But when we get closure, the stories are complete. For example, Howard is the most changed character and his story is not very interesting now. He is developed. Do you see what I am trying to say? I'm saying once each character has a resolution, as Howard did, the show has less to say, that's going to be new.

Both points are not contradictory but part of the same thing. I'm just not as good at explaining it as some.

Edited by Moonbase

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Given the actors re-upping on their contracts after next year, the show is going at least 8-9 years. Chances are it will go even 10. Problem is the quality will drop but corporate greed always wins out over common sense. It's a nice fantasy, of somebody in power saying: "Hey now, why don't we quit while we're ahead and go out on a high note instead of dragging everything out until the shows demise comes across more like a mercy killing". Realty though is something like this: "Lets milk this sucker for all it's worth, money money money money money money money.....MONEY!".

 

I agree with you, but even so, it will only stay on as long as there is an audience watching.  No matter how greedy Warner Brothers, CBS and the producers are, no matter how bad the quality slips, if the ratings slip too low, it will be taken off. What I mean is that reguardless of the quality or the greed, if it gets the ratings that means a good percentage of people like what they see.  Look at the SImpsons.  Now, I'm a big Simpsons fan, but I think that show should have been taken off 12 years ago.  Not that there hasn't been a good Simpsons episode the past12 years.  But the Simpsons have  lost the quality it once had.  But, it still has a big audience so someone must still enjoy it.   It is up to the ratings in the end. 

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I agree with you, but even so, it will only stay on as long as there is an audience watching.  No matter how greedy Warner Brothers, CBS and the producers are, no matter how bad the quality slips, if the ratings slip too low, it will be taken off. What I mean is that reguardless of the quality or the greed, if it gets the ratings that means a good percentage of people like what they see.  Look at the SImpsons.  Now, I'm a big Simpsons fan, but I think that show should have been taken off 12 years ago.  Not that there hasn't been a good Simpsons episode the past12 years.  But the Simpsons have  lost the quality it once had.  But, it still has a big audience so someone must still enjoy it.   It is up to the ratings in the end. 

 

Very true. Ratings drive everything, not quality. Thats why I'm on the edge of my seat over TBBT. A lot of us are pretty attached to this show.

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While I'm not that big a Raj fan I think they need to do SOMETHING with him.  Let him talk, marry him off, send him back to India, kill off Howard and have him chase Bernie... SOMETHING!!! Here's a story... Howard is killed by a his re-entering defective space toilet ( they chucked it out) and the shock allows Raj to speak.

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I just think we're panicking a bit too much too soon. While I said I'd be happy with 8 seasons, that doesn't mean they can't go to 10 and still make it good. You never know what might happen, of course the longer a show runs the more the quality declines simply because they can't come up with new stuff as easily but who knows? Maybe they'll find a way to make scenarios we find abhorrent funny. I just think we have to wait and see. 

 

As for Shamy, "affection" might mean different things to different people. I don't think you can evaluate them within the framework of a regular relationship, what is a meaningless gesture for normal people is a huge thing for Sheldon. 

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While I'm not that big a Raj fan I think they need to do SOMETHING with him.  Let him talk, marry him off, send him back to India, kill off Howard and have him chase Bernie... SOMETHING!!! Here's a story... Howard is killed by a his re-entering defective space toilet ( they chucked it out) and the shock allows Raj to speak.

 

Haha, not bad. Maybe not the killing off Howard but I like the space toilet coming back to haunt him. :icon_lol:

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For me it seems to be a good idea to stay in the present. I'm happy with the way the show is going at this time. I have no idea what it's going to be like 2 years from now, whether it's going to slip in ratings and end within 8 years or go on for 10 years or even longer, whether they'll be able to keep thinking of new ideas or hit a block (or frankly, where I'll be 2 years from now). The risk of decline/stagnation/running out of stories to tell is there for any long-running show, irrespective of whether it involves change and evolution or not.

Edited by Pomita
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Haha, not bad. Maybe not the killing off Howard but I like the space toilet coming back to haunt him. :icon_lol:

You don't remember, Howard was the one stuck cleaning the toilet on the space station? I wonder if it was his design or if they built a new one?

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You don't remember, Howard was the one stuck cleaning the toilet on the space station? I wonder if it was his design or if they built a new one?

 

I'd like to think he had to clean his own toilet design. :)

 

What was it? the Wolowitz Zero-Gravity Human Waste Disposal System. Great epiosde, using his mothers brisket was classic.

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As for Shamy, "affection" might mean different things to different people. I don't think you can evaluate them within the framework of a regular relationship, what is a meaningless gesture for normal people is a huge thing for Sheldon. 

 

 

But you have to remember that not everyone in the audience, including me, is going to try and see it that way.  Shamy may evolve into something more but for right now, by definition, they are only good friends pretending to be in a relationship.  I use my own experiences to form judgements on what I see and I have had more affection for girls I considered friends than Sheldon has had for Amy.

 

This is why I think Shamy is a mistake.  Getting him to a place where I will believe in this relationship is going to take a pretty big overhaul especially considering that Amy is so starved for affection she will fake being sick to get him to care for her even if he is approaching it clinically.

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Guest I'm not dead Cheryl

But you have to remember that not everyone in the audience, including me, is going to try and see it that way.  Shamy may evolve into something more but for right now, by definition, they are only good friends pretending to be in a relationship.  I use my own experiences to form judgements on what I see and I have had more affection for girls I considered friends than Sheldon has had for Amy.

 

This is why I think Shamy is a mistake.  Getting him to a place where I will believe in this relationship is going to take a pretty big overhaul especially considering that Amy is so starved for affection she will fake being sick to get him to care for her even if he is approaching it clinically.

 

They are not "only good friends pretending to be in a relationship" they are in a relationship (Amy can send you a pdf of the RA :icon_lol: ), I fail to understand what is it exactly that makes you think that they are not in a relationship. Is it because of the lack of physical displays of affection? is it because of the lack of sex perhaps? In any case, ALL relationships are different.

 

A good relationship is always based in a good friendship. That's what long relationships do turn into after years, companionship. Sheldon and Amy do have that. And IMO, they also have the most stable and functional relationship of the whole show. Sure, they are in different places when it comes to the desire for more physical intimacy, but they are not so far away either. Many people get stuck on the mantra "Amy is starved for sex" while forgetting that she is also a virgin, just as Sheldon is, and lacks experience just as him. It is kinda my perception that her being with Sheldon is safe for her because of that. Someone like Amy would not be confortable dating a man with "experience". Regarding her longing for afection, well, of couse she will want her boyfriend to be affectionate with her. And he is in some way, and I think that is why she is still there hanging on. She got him to cuddle with her, to hold hands with her on a regular basis. Amy is realistic when it comes to Sheldon, hence her 4 year plan and considering him a "flight risk" to her plan. She knows it will take time, and she knows he wil always be Sheldon.

 

Regarding Sheldon's "lack of affection" for her that you seem to indicate in your post is not true. He has even said it aloud "you are my girlfriend and I care about your well being" "I seem to be developing affectionate feelings for her", "she deserves so much better than me, I think she's gonna leave me", etc. It is true though, that most of these times, it was Sheldon saying these things to other characters (Leonard, Penny) and not so much to Amy, hence I think, her insecurity in the matter. But Sheldon's feelings ARE there and he has expressed them even more times than Amy has expressed her feelings for him.

 

For all intents and purposes, neither Sheldon or Amy are in any way close to the traditional "romantic story" characters. And their relationship reflects that, and that's why some of us enjoy their relationship so much. Before is NOT like the other relationships, and because they go through it in their own way.

Edited by Sursonica
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