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pepsiadikt

The Entire Premise Is Changing, Not Sure How To Feel.

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But you have to remember that not everyone in the audience, including me, is going to try and see it that way.  Shamy may evolve into something more but for right now, by definition, they are only good friends pretending to be in a relationship.  I use my own experiences to form judgements on what I see and I have had more affection for girls I considered friends than Sheldon has had for Amy.

 

This is why I think Shamy is a mistake.  Getting him to a place where I will believe in this relationship is going to take a pretty big overhaul especially considering that Amy is so starved for affection she will fake being sick to get him to care for her even if he is approaching it clinically.

 

You don't have to *try* that hard to see it that way, because the writers have made it clear that they have feelings for each other on multiple occasions. You can't compare yourself to Sheldon, Sheldon by definition is not a "regular" guy. Just like Amy isn't a "regular" girl. Now, this does not necessarily relate to Shamy because they are a WIP and the issues with them are of a different kind, but, albeit rare, there are couples in this world that are asexual and whose relationships involve little or no physical contact. Are you saying that their relationships are, somehow, just "make believe"? Because they do not fit the norm of what is expected in a romantic relationship? I feel very uncomfortable making that assertion, to be honest.  

 

With regards to the fact that this is a WIP and it's not going to stay like this, the overhaul is not that big when it doesn't happen overnight. And they have all the time in the world to take those baby steps.

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They are not "only good friends pretending to be in a relationship" they are in a relationship (Amy can send you a pdf of the RA :icon_lol: ), I fail to understand what is it exactly that makes you think that they are not in a relationship. Is it because of the lack of physical displays of affection? is it because of the lack of sex perhaps? In any case, ALL relationships are different.

 

A good relationship is always based in a good friendship. That's what long relationships do turn into after years, companionship. Sheldon and Amy do have that. And IMO, they also have the most stable and functional relationship of the whole show. Sure, they are in different places when it comes to the desire for more physical intimacy, but they are not so far away either. Many people get stuck on the mantra "Amy is starved for sex" while forgetting that she is also a virgin, just as Sheldon is, and lacks experience just as him. It is kinda my perception that her being with Sheldon is safe for her because of that. Someone like Amy would not be confortable dating a man with "experience". Regarding her longing for afection, well, of couse she will want her boyfriend to be affectionate with her. And he is in some way, and I think that is why she is still there hanging on. She got him to cuddle with her, to hold hands with her on a regular basis. Amy is realistic when it comes to Sheldon, hence her 4 year plan and considering him a "flight risk" to her plan. She knows it will take time, and she knows he wil always be Sheldon.

 

Regarding Sheldon's "lack of affection" for her that you seem to indicate in your post is not true. He has even said it aloud "you are my girlfriend and I care about your well being" "I seem to be developing affectionate feelings for her", "she deserves so much better than me, I think she's gonna leave me", etc. It is true though, that most of these times, it was Sheldon saying these things to other characters (Leonard, Penny) and not so much to Amy, hence I think, her insecurity in the matter. But Sheldon's feelings ARE there and he has expressed them even more times than Amy has expressed her feelings for him.

 

For all intents and purposes, neither Sheldon or Amy are in any way close to the traditional "romantic story" characters. And their relationship reflects that, and that's why some of us enjoy their relationship so much. Before is NOT like the other relationships, and because they go through it in their own way.

 

 

There are different kinds of ducks and if something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is seen as a duck.  I can throw chickens in a pond all day but they will still be chickens.

 

Once again I am being taken to task because I don't accept being told that it is raining when someone is peeing on my leg.  Has there ever been a moment when Amy expressed comfort being with Sheldon or are you just assuming that?  She certainly doesn't mind getting naked for him.

 

They have been in this "relationship" for over a year and you have 3 lines?  2 of which were not even said to Amy?  Come on.  You know what they call a relationship where feelings can't be properly expressed?  Dysfunctional.

 

They are not in a romantic relationship yet.  By every definition they are close friends.  They might try to call it a duck, but it is really a chicken.

 

My one set of grandparents never expressed affection for each other.  They were married for over 40 years and had 4 kids.  Believe me there was nothing cute or charming about their relationship.  None of their kids had healthy relationships either.

 

The keyword in all the above is "yet".  Relationships can evolve from friendship to be much more it just hasn't happened yet.

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What's a WIP?

 

It's rather ironical to me that those who complain that the show has degenerated into a traditional romcom, are those who aren't even ready to see Sheldon/Amy as a bonafide couple unless they actually degenerate into a traditional romcom relationship. An odd, unique, outside-the-box relationship is apparently unacceptable. 

Edited by Pomita

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There are different kinds of ducks and if something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is seen as a duck.  I can throw chickens in a pond all day but they will still be chickens.

 

Once again I am being taken to task because I don't accept being told that it is raining when someone is peeing on my leg.  Has there ever been a moment when Amy expressed comfort being with Sheldon or are you just assuming that?  She certainly doesn't mind getting naked for him.

 

They have been in this "relationship" for over a year and you have 3 lines?  2 of which were not even said to Amy?  Come on.  You know what they call a relationship where feelings can't be properly expressed?  Dysfunctional.

 

They are not in a romantic relationship yet.  By every definition they are close friends.  They might try to call it a duck, but it is really a chicken.

 

My one set of grandparents never expressed affection for each other.  They were married for over 40 years and had 4 kids.  Believe me there was nothing cute or charming about their relationship.  None of their kids had healthy relationships either.

 

The keyword in all the above is "yet".  Relationships can evolve from friendship to be much more it just hasn't happened yet.

 

A relationship where feelings can't be properly expressed is dysfunctional? I'm sorry, are we talking about Penny all of a sudden? 

 

eta: Pom WIP = work in progress

Edited by spook

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You don't have to *try* that hard to see it that way, because the writers have made it clear that they have feelings for each other on multiple occasions. You can't compare yourself to Sheldon, Sheldon by definition is not a "regular" guy. Just like Amy isn't a "regular" girl. Now, this does not

 

 

The world is filthy with people who do not know how to properly express their affection.  In this regard his is not that irregular either.

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What's a WIP?

 

It's rather ironical to me that those who complain that the show has degenerated into a traditional romcom, are those who aren't even ready to see Sheldon/Amy as a bonafide couple unless they actually degenerate into a traditional romcom relationship. An odd, unique, outside-the-box relationship is apparently unacceptable. 

 

Work-in-progress.

 

I never wanted Amy or him in a relationship that would have been non-traditional enough.

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The world is filthy with people who do not know how to properly express their affection.  In this regard his is not that irregular either.

 

So you're just going to ignore the rest of my post and take out the one thing that wasn't even crucial to the point I was making? Ok. 

 

I think the best affection you can demonstrate for another person is to accept them as they are and learn to read how their affection is expressed.

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A relationship where feelings can't be properly expressed is dysfunctional? I'm sorry, are we talking about Penny all of a sudden? 

 

eta: Pom WIP = work in progress

 

Yep.  Their relationship has a ways to go before being healthy too.

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I see the writers as having made a big mistake with the Shamy. They are trying to keep Sheldon the way he has been and yet they are very slowing trying to make him have more affection for Amy. Sheldon is unique so the writers seem to be having trouble making him change while keeping him the same. Amy is a different character and the writers have pretty much defined her character as a repressed smart girl who is finally coming out of her shell due to her new friends, Penny and Bernadette. Amy is rapidly becoming a normal girl because of Penny and Bernadette, not Sheldon, so she is slowly leaving Sheldon behind emotionally and making their relationship seem more strange with each Shamy episode. I don't know how they will fix it but either Amy's character needs to slow down in devolpment or Sheldon must become more loving to her.

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So you're just going to ignore the rest of my post and take out the one thing that wasn't even crucial to the point I was making? Ok. 

 

I think the best affection you can demonstrate for another person is to accept them as they are and learn to read how their affection is expressed.

 

 

I feel like I have already responded to the types of relationship arguments in my previous post. 

 

To your second point, that is no different from friendship.  Even without sex a couple is affectionate in ways friends are not or they are still at the friend level.

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Guest I'm not dead Cheryl

those 3 lines are by no means all the lines, I thought it was clear I was just using them as an example, not a throrough enumeration.

 

And I really don't see how it could be said that Sheldon is not invested in the relationship or not showing affection for her, when it is actually him the one who keeps making compromises and trying really hard to keep her as his girlfriend. Not only he was the one to initiate the relationship, but he is the one who hit Leonard because of jealousy, when he was the one to go all the way to get her a Tiara as an apology, when he agreed to Amy's experiment, when he willingly took her hand, when he came up with the Spiderman speech, when he even tried to fight Wil Wheaton for "Amy's honour" accepted to use a wig with the C3PO costume, etc. If he wasn't interested, he could have let her go, he has had many many chances. And yet still, everytime, he is the one reaching out of his comfort zone just to keep her by his side. But for some reason, all of those gestures, all of those episodes are not taken into account sometimes. Why is that?

 

I guess some people don't see it, or maybe don't want to see it, or maybe have selective memory, but some of us do see it, and we maybe have selective memory too, but I don't think it`s fair to argue that they are not in a relationship, just because it doesn't fit the "acceptable" parameters of one. Relationships vary from couple to couple and this relationship is true to both Sheldon and Amy.

 

I just don't see how using the same standards no-one argues that Leonard and Penny are indeed in a relationship, when if analyzed with the same standards that some people apply to the Shamy, Leonard and Penny would even score lower relationship/affection points.

Edited by Sursonica
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I see the writers as having made a big mistake with the Shamy. They are trying to keep Sheldon the way he has been and yet they are very slowing trying to make him have more affection for Amy. Sheldon is unique so the writers seem to be having trouble making him change while keeping him the same. Amy is a different character and the writers have pretty much defined her character as a repressed smart girl who is finally coming out of her shell due to her new friends, Penny and Bernadette. Amy is rapidly becoming a normal girl because of Penny and Bernadette, not Sheldon, so she is slowly leaving Sheldon behind emotionally and making their relationship seem more strange with each Shamy episode. I don't know how they will fix it but either Amy's character needs to slow down in devolpment or Sheldon must become more loving to her.

 

I don't think they're trying to keep him the same, I think they're trying to evolve him slowly. Not only because people would freak out otherwise, but because it wouldn't be realistic for someone like him to just change overnight.

 

As for Amy, I partly agree. But I think that's mostly because the writers have focused so much on the story of her coming out of her shell that they're neglecting other aspects of her personality. I do not think Amy is a "regular" girl at all, she just wants to be one. But she can't help who she is. That's constantly shown when she hangs out with Penny and Bernadette. She's also not as emotionally mature as some might perceive her to be. And I think the next few eps will show that they're not as far apart as they've been perceived to be so far.

 

In any case, they're trying to tell a story. If things could be resolved and changed overnight there would be no story to tell. They're taking them somewhere and of course there are going to be times along the way where one is ahead of the other and viceversa, just like with Leonard and Penny. They have at least another 2 or 3 seasons to fill. 

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those 3 lines are by no means all the lines, I thought it was clear I was just using them as an example, not a throrough enumeration.

 

And I really don't see how it could be said that Sheldon is not invested in the relationship or not showing affection for her, when it is actually him the one who keeps making compromises and trying really hard to keep her as his girlfriend. Not only he was the one to initiate the relationship, but he is the one who hit Leonard because of jealousy, when he was the one to go all the way to get her a Tiara as an apology, when he agreed to Amy's experiment, when he willingly took her hand, when he came up with the Spiderman speech, when he even tried to fight Wil Wheaton for "Amy's honour" accepted to use a wig with the C3PO costume, etc. If he wasn't interested, he could have let her go, he has had many many chances. And yet still, everytime, he is the one reaching out of his comfort zone just to keep her by his side. But for some reason, all of those gestures, all of those episodes are not taken into account sometimes. Why is that?

 

I guess some people don't see it, or maybe don't want to see it, or maybe have selective memory, but some of us do see it, and we maybe have selective memory too, but I don't think it`s fair to argue that they are not in a relationship, just because it doesn't fit the "acceptable" parameters of one. Relationships vary from couple to couple and this relationship is true to both Sheldon and Amy.

 

I just don't see how using the same standards no-one argues that Leonard and Penny are indeed in a relationship, when if analyzed with the same standards that some people apply to the Shamy, Leonard and Penny would even score lower relationship/affection points.

 

 

Outside of hitting Leonard for jealousy just about everything you described are things friends do for each other.  They compromise for each other, they sometimes have physical contact, they stand up for each other, they take care of each other, and they go out of their way to make the friendship work when things are rocky.  So we have 3 lines and one hit.

 

L/P have been very affectionate verbally and physically toward each other in ways that couples are affectionate. 

 

Everyone agrees they will take it slow but balks because their relationship mostly resembles a close friendship at this point.  He might feel more for her but until he learns how to express those feelings beyond the level of a friend they are not doing her any good.

 

My 10 YO nephew has what he calls a girlfriend. Again, I can throw chickens in a pond all day and they will never be ducks.

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It looks like I might have to pull out my Love Languages lesson again...

 

People give and express love in different ways and they need to receive love in that same way--physical touch, gifts (like a Shiny Trinket), acts of service, etc.

 

I think that's a big factor in Sheldon and Amy negotiating the waters of their relationship.  While they may not have jumped into physical displays yet, beyond a handful of smooches and a little hand-holding, that doesn't mean that the desire to eventually get there isn't present in their relationship.  I think that their initial attraction was cerebral and that will continue to be a factor in how they relate to each other.

Sheldon loves to have his brain stimulated and up until now that's been pretty much the only titilation that he has ever sought.

But although Amy does seem to provide that element for him, he's slowly awakening to the idea that physical displays of affection might not be the horrible thing he has always imagined them to be.

I've always said that their relationsihp reminds me of a sort of junior-high bf/gf relationship, where kids are just barely learning (at least, back in my day--who knows what kids do nowadays!!) how to relate to the opposite sex in a physical way, how to go from "Boys have cooties!!!" and making faces at the idea of hand-holding and kissing to the idea that it just might be nice to do those things.

 

Amy has perhaps contemplated the idea more than has Sheldon, but as has been pointed out, she's probably just as inexperienced as Sheldon in the physical arena (except for that toothbrush...)

Sheldon has always thought of physical touch and sexual matters, including kissing, as being undesirable, but with Amy he's been willing to be her experiment, meaning that he gets to experiment as well, to see how being kissed by a girl might not be as bad as he has imagined--if it's a girl YOU HAVE FEELINGS FOR.  He let her hold his hand (in Alien Parasite) without pulling away or complaining, he agreed to cuddle her, which he would not have done if he hadn't cared for her (even though this was before he asked her to be his gf), and he found that despite his insistence that she was "just a friend", it turned out that he had proprietary feelings for her after all.

 

If he really felt only platonic affection for her, he would not have stepped completely outside his comfort zone and asked her to be his girlfriend.  He didn't need to do that just to maintain her friendship.  He didn't need to tell Leonard, "She's NOT FOR YOU!" and physically assault him (something Sheldon has NEVER done) over his imagining that Leonard had somehow put his groin to use on his date with Amy.

 

And then there was that little unconscious reaching for her hand in that moment of great emotion.  While one might not think of that as a sign of romantic affection, it was certainly a sign that he needed and wanted some physical grounding and that he instinctively reached for her in that moment.

 

I think that the whole process is a bit confusing for Sheldon because it involves exploring areas that he hasn't really thought worthy of exploring--the idea that physical affection might be something pleasurable.  I also think that the desire for physical display comes with the greater feelings of love.

Yes, the general difference between platonic affection and romantic affection is the physical apsect, but if you've never had that desire before, it can be a strange and maybe frightening thing to find yourself wanting to take steps in that direction.

 

Now, because Sheldon is such a unique creature when it comes to such things, he's starting from scratch, from that elementary-to-junior-high starting line.  If he's had an aversion to physical touch, but now he's finding himself in a situation where it turns out not to be such a bad thing, well, he's still going to have to figure out the process and slowly dip his toes into that water.

He's certainly not going to go from avoiding physical contact to sticking his tongue down Amy's throat or jumping in the sack.

 

I think the romantic affection is there, it's just that Sheldon, in particular, doesn't yet know how to go about expressing it physically.  I think that asking Amy to be his girlfriend--and he seems to understand the difference between a "girl who is not his girlfriend" and a "girl who is his girlfriend"--was a monumental leap forward for him.

 

But he's still in junior high.

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I think to me the point with relationship is that they are defined by the people in it. Not by the people outside of it. 

 

I think it's the same with friendship. I know people who say "my best friend" and I look at their friendships and I'm like "pfff, that's a best friend to you?". But the point is that within the context of their lives, what to me is just any regular friend or an acquaintance, to them is a best friend. Same thing for the 10 YO nephew. In the context of his life she is a girlfriend. It's whatever works for them. In the context of Sheldon's life, Amy is a girlfriend, because all those things he does for her and puts up with for her he would never do for anybody else. 

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Guest I'm not dead Cheryl

 Again, I can throw chickens in a pond all day and they will never be ducks.

 

Then again, in the end, they're all birds.

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I think to me the point with relationship is that they are defined by the people in it. Not by the people outside of it. 

 

I think it's the same with friendship. I know people who say "my best friend" and I look at their friendships and I'm like "pfff, that's a best friend to you?". But the point is that within the context of their lives, what to me is just any regular friend or an acquaintance, to them is a best friend. Same thing for the 10 YO nephew. In the context of his life she is a girlfriend. It's whatever works for them. In the context of Sheldon's life, Amy is a girlfriend, because all those things he does for her and puts up with for her he would never do for anybody else. 

 

This is true--and goes back to my Shamy as a junior-high relationship.

They consider themselves bf/gf because they say they are and they know the feelings they have for each other.  Why would Sheldon have asked Amy to be his girlfriend if he didn't want her to be?  Though he then tried to control it with the RelAg (which is typical of Sheldon wanting to control everyone in and everything about his life), I think that was because taking that step of asking her to be his girlfriend was a big, scary thing for him.

 

But, yeah, we don't get to see or hear every feeling that S or A have for each other, but they obviously have the desire to be bf/gf and to claim each other as such, so that's what they are.

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I see the writers as having made a big mistake with the Shamy. They are trying to keep Sheldon the way he has been and yet they are very slowing trying to make him have more affection for Amy. Sheldon is unique so the writers seem to be having trouble making him change while keeping him the same. Amy is a different character and the writers have pretty much defined her character as a repressed smart girl who is finally coming out of her shell due to her new friends, Penny and Bernadette. Amy is rapidly becoming a normal girl because of Penny and Bernadette, not Sheldon, so she is slowly leaving Sheldon behind emotionally and making their relationship seem more strange with each Shamy episode. I don't know how they will fix it but either Amy's character needs to slow down in devolpment or Sheldon must become more loving to her.

 

OMG this is so it. I was in to the shamy until about mid season 5 and I couldn't figure out why my feelings changed. I knew Amy had changed but couldn't quite express it. I also knew I was getting pissed at Sheldon and couldn't figure out why. You are so right...Amy's friendships with the girls has made her more normal and she's left Sheldon behind emotionally and now there's this big void between them. It is making them seem strange is exactly what I feel. Spot on! They do not want to change Sheldon but it's not working trying to make him seem to care. It just looks like he's calling the shots with someone he only considers a friend, whereas before they were weirdos together.

 

Thats why I said earlier that I wished they would drop the emotional growth idea and just concentrate on making them funny. Turn them in to a comic duo doing crazy things. Stop trying to be romantic and build up their bond first, until it makes perfect sense why these two would love each other.

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OMG this is so it. I was in to the shamy until about mid season 5 and I couldn't figure out why my feelings changed. I knew Amy had changed but couldn't quite express it. I also knew I was getting pissed at Sheldon and couldn't figure out why. You are so right...Amy's friendships with the girls has made her more normal and she's left Sheldon behind emotionally and now there's this big void between them. It is making them seem strange is exactly what I feel. Spot on! They do not want to change Sheldon but it's not working trying to make him seem to care. It just looks like he's calling the shots with someone he only considers a friend, whereas before they were weirdos together.

 

Thats why I said earlier that I wished they would drop the emotional growth idea and just concentrate on making them funny. Turn them in to a comic duo doing crazy things. Stop trying to be romantic and build up their bond first, until it makes perfect sense why these two would love each other.

 

 

But they've done all of that. In season 4. I agree I'd like to see more of that again, and I've said that many times that it's precisely because it's easy to forget who they are that they should every once in a while have more of their comedic camaraderie  But they have built up that bond already. They've done all the "couple of weirdos" stuff, now they're at another stage. But it's not like he's calling the shots and being forced to do so because she's been threatening anything. When she went out with Stuart she did it in a totally nonchalant way, she didn't go up to him and said "Either you step up or I'm dating other people". He was the one who decided to go for it. If he considered only a friend he would have let her go, like in S4 when he was telling Leonard "Take her off my hands".

 

And, again, I don't think they're trying to keep Sheldon the same, they're just trying to take it slow.

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I think to me the point with relationship is that they are defined by the people in it. Not by the people outside of it. 

 

I think it's the same with friendship. I know people who say "my best friend" and I look at their friendships and I'm like "pfff, that's a best friend to you?". But the point is that within the context of their lives, what to me is just any regular friend or an acquaintance, to them is a best friend. Same thing for the 10 YO nephew. In the context of his life she is a girlfriend. It's whatever works for them. In the context of Sheldon's life, Amy is a girlfriend, because all those things he does for her and puts up with for her he would never do for anybody else. 

 

This is where many on this board and I get off track.  I am part of the audience.  Their relationship does not exist so naturally it is defined by me, not them.  I see two people who act more like close friends right now.  I have no idea why that bothers anyone because many relationships start right there.   I love a good debate but this is not one.  It is an issue of semantics.   

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Everyone agrees they will take it slow but balks because their relationship mostly resembles a close friendship at this point.

 

Everyone balks? Sorry, who's 'everyone'?

 

Actually I have no issues with you thinking that they just have a close friendship at this point. It seems to me that you would define it to be a 'relationship' only if sex or at least a higher degree of physical affection was involved, and if that's your definition, then obviously they don't satisfy it. I don't agree with your definition, and clearly, neither do Sheldon and Amy. But I'd say a close friendship is quite a nice way to look at it, if it includes all the different kinds of caring and connection that exist between them - every great relationship starts with a great friendship.

 

Let's remember that Amy was the one who felt that Leonard/Penny and Howard/Bernadette were the weird couples. From her frame her reference, she and Sheldon are the 'normal couple'. That's how contented and confident she is, about the relationship.

Edited by Pomita

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Are some of you in panic mode with this show?  Why?  We are at the highest of ratings, the storylines still have juice, the couplings are working really well, the show is popular and there is no inking that this show is on the way out.  What are some of you scared of?

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Guest I'm not dead Cheryl

Are some of you in panic mode with this show?  Why?  We are at the highest of ratings, the storylines still have juice, the couplings are working really well, the show is popular and there is no inking that this show is on the way out.  What are some of you scared of?

 

I don't think it's much of a feeling of fear, I think it's more of an expression of desire.

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I think what some are forgetting is that this is a show. The Producers/Writers decided it was time to see what would happen if they gave Sheldon a girlfriend. If it didn't work out she could be dropped and Sheldon could go back to the way he was before. If it worked out Sheldon's character would be refreshed and made more interesting (he was in danger of becoming one dimensional like Raj).

Obviously it has worked beyond their dreams. The problem is that if they change Sheldon too much it warps his character for the rest of the show (look at Howard). If Sheldon became 'normal' he wouldn't be as interesting. As a result he can't change nearly as fast as Amy. I expect that in the last season of the show (when the restraints are out) that he'll make great strides. This is the only way I can explain Sheldon's glacial progress in his relationship with Amy.

Edited by eirwinrommel

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I think what some are forgetting is that this is a show. The Producers/Writers decided it was time to see what would happen if they gave Sheldon a girlfriend. If it didn't work out she could be dropped and Sheldon could go back to the way he was before. If it worked out Sheldon's character would be refreshed and made more interesting (he was in danger of becoming one dimensional like Raj).

Obviously it has worked beyond their dreams. The problem is that if they change Sheldon too much it warps his character for the rest of the show (look at Howard). If Sheldon became 'normal' he wouldn't be as interesting. As a result he can't change nearly as fast as Amy. I expect that in the last season of the show (when the restraints are out) that he'll make great strides. This is the only way I can explain Sheldon's glacial progress in his relationship with Amy.

 

I agree. I can see a lot of back and forth going on between Sheldon and Amy, regarding who progresses, who steps back and how much, over the next couple of seasons. It's a fine line to walk.

 

Regarding changing Sheldon and making him 'normal', I don't think that's ever going to happen. The trick is to have him be just as he always was with everyone else, while demonstrating a bit more empathy towards Amy - that could work. And their relationship is odd and offbeat enough anyway.

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