Least Favorite Moments

[Nogravitasatall]

Ok, but maybe

Leonard has had some slutty moments but I believe he has always wanted a stable relationship.  The big difference between them is Leonard has taken what has been offered to him because he doesn't get many offers.  Penny can have most of anything she wants and the show has portrayed her as quite promiscuous.  She tried to sleep with Raj, she might have slept with Stuart if Sheldon had not interferred, she slept with and had naked photos taken by a visiting married physicist.  I recall a scene where she was going out with the intent of coming back with a partner.   According to a study 15 is a large number for most men and women.  They doubled it for Penny.  It was like they wanted to make sure we all got it.

And Leonard doesn't care about what she did. He has made one comment about her drinking starting at an early age and that was really low key. Sheldon: Darts is a bar game. You’ve been frequenting drinking establishments since you were of legal age. Leonard: Yeah, that’s when it started. But I can't recall him ever calling her out for her past sexual relationships. And I don't think he was nervous about her responses in T43P. I think he was nervous about the other bloke. Leonard: Come on, trust me, he’s hitting on you. (Leonard knows how guys think,) Penny: No, he’s not. We’re just friends. (Penny is on task for the work ahead, not even remotely thinking of Cole as a sexual partner) True, she had been sexually active ( a big old five!), but she's a legally competent adult, living in a purportedly free country, so, so what. (Promiscuous - no, enthusiastic - sure. I thought we got over that in 1968.). She has never cheated on Leonard - they were never on a break when they had other encounters, they were broken up. What they now share is a blindness to each others commitment. Penny doesn't see Cole other than as a fellow student, Leonard sees Alex only as a junior colleague. Each projects their own fears on the other. And we see their misunderstanding and the irony of it. Classic. But because TPTB went there in season 3, it's edgy, because they could go nuclear again (my trauma comes out here). Hope that stands up. Thanks.

[Ar Diem]

In any case, NEVER on the show it was suggested that Penny sleeping around was a bad thing. Something to make fun of, like you would of Howard's adventures pre-Bernadette, yes. But I think the idea that, because she's been shown sleeping with more people than most the other guys in the show, the writers are implying that she's a slut, is actually very sexist of the people who perceive it that way, because if she had been a guy no one would be getting offended for her by the fact that they are implying she has had many sexual partners.

 

 

If a guy has slept with 30 women he is considered a player which also has negative connotations.  He would be the kind of guy that a girl would hesitate to get involved with for fear of just being another notch on his head board.  He would not be boyfriend material because it would be obvious he has never had a longterm relationship.

 

It is funny you bring up Howard again because they fixed him.  They upgraded him.  He is no longer the delusional horn dog he was before.  His character grew out of it.  Penny still has notions of breaking up with Leonard and if she does there is no reason to believe she won't go back to jumping from one bed to another.

 

She has a very casual attitude about sex.  This makes her promiscous and by definition a slut.  It is not a morality thing or even a double standard because in the end having sex with a person who has had 30 partners before you will never be special.  You aren't one of the lucky few you are just the next person in line.

[Nogravitasatall]

If a guy has slept with 30 women he is considered a player which also has negative connotations.  He would be the kind of guy that a girl would hesitate to get involved with for fear of just being another notch on his head board.  He would not be boyfriend material because it would be obvious he has never had a longterm relationship.   It is funny you bring up Howard again because they fixed him.  They upgraded him.  He is no longer the delusional horn dog he was before.  His character grew out of it.  Penny still has notions of breaking up with Leonard and if she does there is no reason to believe she won't go back to jumping from one bed to another.   She has a very casual attitude about sex.  This makes her promiscous and by definition a slut.  It is not a morality thing or even a double standard because in the end having sex with a person who has had 30 partners before you will never be special.  You aren't one of the lucky few you are just the next person in line.

One last go for the repressed or deeply hurt. The line may stop. The past does not predict the future. We are imperfect, but strive for perfection. We forgive. And I have a canon... Penny: Leonard, why do you always do this? Listen to me, you’re the one I’m with. You know I love you, so will you please relax because you’re driving me crazy.

[koops]

If a guy has slept with 30 women he is considered a player which also has negative connotations.  He would be the kind of guy that a girl would hesitate to get involved with for fear of just being another notch on his head board.  He would not be boyfriend material because it would be obvious he has never had a longterm relationship.

 

It is funny you bring up Howard again because they fixed him.  They upgraded him.  He is no longer the delusional horn dog he was before.  His character grew out of it.  Penny still has notions of breaking up with Leonard and if she does there is no reason to believe she won't go back to jumping from one bed to another.

 

She has a very casual attitude about sex.  This makes her promiscous and by definition a slut.  It is not a morality thing or even a double standard because in the end having sex with a person who has had 30 partners before you will never be special.  You aren't one of the lucky few you are just the next person in line.

 

Life isn't all about who you have sex with. Yes, she might have had sex with 30 men before Leonard but she might have never loved anyone the way she loves Leonard. I think Leonard being the one that makes her grow up and fall love and have a real relationship that isn't just based on sex makes him very special. No matter how many other people they have slept with before. Does that mean Bernadette isn't special because she is just the next one in line? Or is she really the special one because she is the one that made Howard willing to give up his lifestyle for?

Edited December 14, 2012 by spook

[Ar Diem]

One last go for the repressed or deeply hurt. The line may stop. The past does not predict the future. We are imperfect, but strive for perfection. We forgive. And I have a canon... Penny: Leonard, why do you always do this? Listen to me, you’re the one I’m with. You know I love you, so will you please relax because you’re driving me crazy.

 

 

Which would have been more meaningful had they not had her contemplating breaking up with him so recently.  That is the problem they don't allow her big moments without somehow tainting them.  All of the dialog about her breaking up with him made her look flaky and it cast a shadow back over her again.  Why do they keep doing that?  What is the point except to alienate the audience?

 

Here is the problem with this debate.  You are defending her to me but I am not the one attacking her, the show is.  I am merely responding to what they are doing.  You are talking about striving for perfection but that has nothing to do with the show because she is who they make her to be.  Can't you see the contrast in how they treated Howard as opposed to Penny?  Penny, Raj, and Stuart are all in the same boat.

[Ar Diem]

Life isn't all about who you have sex with. Yes, she might have had sex with 30 men before Leonard but she might have never loved anyone the way she loves Leonard. I think Leonard being the one that makes her grow up and fall love and have a real relationship that isn't just based on sex makes him very special. No matter how many other people they have slept with before. Does that mean Bernadette isn't special because she is just the next one in line? Or is she really the special one because she is the one that made Howard willing to give up his lifestyle for?

 

 

I didn't say anything about Leonard being or not being special or Bernadette.

 

Most people expect that most of your previous sexual encounters were with people you genuinely cared about.  Sure there may be some casual sex in the mix but you'd not expect it to be full of casual sex.  If the partner you are with places a very low value on sex it means that having sex with him/her is not as special.

 

It is like going out with a person you know by reputation to be an easy score.  Having sex with her might be fun but it also took practically no skill.  You didn't win her over with your charm and you didn't seduce her.  Now Leonard has had to win Penny emotionally the hard way but having sex with her is no big deal because she would have even slept with Raj.

[Nogravitasatall]

I'm gonna think on this and reread what you wrote because i have to have a life afk. I'm happy to whine about the show too, but any incidence of attacking a women, real or fictional, because of her legal, consensual sexual history is wrong.

[phantagrae]

One of the things Jim has said about Sheldon in regard to how to make him "likeable" when he can be such a pain in the butt is that you have to look at the reaction of the others to him and the fact that Sheldon is often clueless as to how his matter-of-fact observations may be socially inept or awkward for others.

The others may get frustrated with him, or scold him for saying things out of turn or for his annoying behaviors, but they don't ever really hate him or cut him out of their lives.

 

The same goes for each of the characters.  THey've all had moments of doing the wrong thing, saying the wrong thing, acting selfishly or whatever.

That they forgive each other is a clue as to how the writers perceive the characters and intend to portray them.

If Penny is not condemned by the others for her behavior, then the writers are not trying to portray her as a terrible person.

 

Any individual out there in TV land may disapprove of her drinking or her past sexual history, but the writers are not condemning her because they do not show the other characters condemning her.  They may comment on something specific that she says or does--like when the other girls called her out on her lack of interest in Leonard's work, for instance--but they don't tell her to buzz off or that she's a terrible person that they don't want to be friends with.

 

And most importantly, Leonard doesn't condemn her for it.  For him, her past is more of a sign that she could have any guy she wanted and makes him wonder if he measures up.

 

I think that with all these characters it's like they're in a lifeboat on the ocean.  If one of them stands up and rocks the boat or starts to otherwise misbehave, then the others will call them on it, make them sit down and share their food and water or whatever.  Then they forgive that person his or her momentary weakness and they keep their boat floating along nicely again.

[goblyn-ina-trenchcoat]

  why is p/r still a problem? not just the events and incidents that led to the "thing that happened", .. not just location.

  think about this.  If it was leonerd not howard in penny's bed with the whore of omaha would there have been a lenny at all?

[C-Trayne]

Excellently said Phantagrae... I never understood why Penny is repetedly attacked for her drinking or her sex life or just who she is as a person.  We know she drinks sure, we know she sleeps around sometimes, (at least pre season 3 she did) but the other characters never really look down on her for it.

 

We are never lead to believe that she is a bad person or that these things make her "lush" or a "slut" its just who she is.  She is afraid of committent and there fore has had trouble maintaining relationships.  Its not hard to understand really.  

 

Also, it is a big deal that Leonard has had to win Penny over emotionally.  Your right Ar Diem, him having sex with her may not have been a big accomplishment because of her history but because he HAS won her and she is now in a fully committed relationship emotionally stable (at the moment) with him which is i think a big deal.

 

And before you start the "she is considering breaking up with him" broken record... we get it, she mentioned she was unsure of her feelings for him in episode 2.  Whoop de doo.  She didn't break up with him and has developed stronger feelings towards him which point to them staying together for a long time.  Yes the thought may have crossed her mind but that was simply because she wasn't sure what she was feeling.  She called it "boring" but in reality i think what it was, was her finding someone who she didn't have to try to please in order to get attention.  He loves her as she is regardless and i think that she was awakening to that.   Their relationship has certainly grown quite a bit in the 9 episodes since.

[Nogravitasatall]

. She has a very casual attitude about sex.  This makes her promiscous and by definition a slut.  It is not a morality thing or even a double standard because in the end having sex with a person who has had 30 partners before you will never be special.  You aren't one of the lucky few you are just the next person in line.

Nup. Thought about what is implied in your para above. This is not about the how the show is treating her, its about how you are processing it. Can't ever agree on this. Ordinal position in sexual history is only important in terms of the relationships between individuals involved (STIs notwithstanding). They are together now. The show and characters have moved past it. Why should it bother anyone or give rise to denigration. They both are not who they were. Leonard is now special to her, regardless of history. Her history is now an amusing private and personal thing between those she now loves... Like hey, remember when I was a heroin addict. Thank goodness I survived , graduated, married and headed up a state's education department and delivered quality education outcomes to 100,000s of kids. Not me but true story. Redemption. Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic. I do want them to stop suffering and for people to evolve. But that's why the show is more than fluff to me.

[Ar Diem]

I'm gonna think on this and reread what you wrote because i have to have a life afk. I'm happy to whine about the show too, but any incidence of attacking a women, real or fictional, because of her legal, consensual sexual history is wrong.

 

I am not attacking anyone nut she is a fictional character with no real feelings.  They took the number that most people feel is a high number of sexual partners and doubled it for her.  If most people feel 15 is a very high number how am I at fault for being upset that the show is painting her as a slut? 

 

If you want to go to real life we can though because I have known women like her and none of them have ever maintained a healthy relationship or marriage.  Several have been in abusive relationships.  All but one of them have self-worth issues and the one that doesn't dreams of ditching her husband and returning to the lifestyle but she has a kid now.  She even admits to maintaining contact with some of her exes to keep the door open.  As far as I know none of them have passed 15 previous partners and a few refer to themselves as sluts.

 

In the fantasy world of sitcom maybe a woman can have 30 previous partners and still be good wife material but in the real world it is a massive red flag.  I am sure there are exceptions to the rule but I have never known any of them.

 

But please let's keep this debate out of the attacking women arena. That is inflammatory language and should not be part of a discussion about a sitcom.  No one has all positive attributes.  For instance Sheldon is not good boyfriend material because he is sexually repressed and will probably never love anyone as much as he loves himself.  In the real world Sheldon dies alone.  In the sitcom world his sexuality flood gates may be magically opened by his first encounter but it won't be believable.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Ar Diem

[C-Trayne]

So i think we are all at that point where we have our own biases or opinions of how certain things in the show are perceived.  This isn't a bad thing merely human nature... one of my favorite quotes says "when you put 3 people in a room you'll end up with six opinions."  My point here is we can argue for the rest of our lives but is anyone's opinion gonna change?

 

That being said i have only one more point to add before i tap out from this argument.  I feel like you are stuck in this idea Ar Diem that because someone has sex they are not suited for relationship material.  (Side note: if 15 is considered high then i know that at least half my college is way above average is this field)

 

I've said this before but it seems to have been overlooked so lets make it clear  *throat clear* ITS BEEN 11 YEARS!  An extremely large number of those encounters came BEFORE her four year relationship with Kurt which took place just before the show started. So from when she was 15 to about 19 most of those sexual partners rolled through.  Could u say she was a slut during this time?  Maybe but that's not the point of my argument

 

My point is since the show has started we have seen Penny with less than a dozen men through six seasons.  Her past has nothing to do with who she is now and that should not at all be a factor in your opinion on whether or not she makes a good girlfriend.  The way she treats her bf and the way she acts towards him is what is key.

 

If you need proof of how she feels about Leonard i direct you to season 6 episodes 5, 8, 11, 12, and 13.  (taping reports on the last two if you like spoilers)  Each one is just an example but all will show that she cares and loves for Leonard a great deal and i think she is already a good gf but is in the process of becoming great

[Ar Diem]

Nup. Thought about what is implied in your para above. This is not about the how the show is treating her, its about how you are processing it. Can't ever agree on this. Ordinal position in sexual history is only important in terms of the relationships between individuals involved (STIs notwithstanding).

 

 

 

And in a more believable world Leonard would probably never get over her having that many partners before him.  It would nag at him.  It would make her harder to trust.  It would make it harder to believe she could love only him and be satisfied for the rest of their lives together with just him because she is a very sexual person. He would always know that with that many partners several of them had to be better than him in bed.

 

Asking us to believe that a guy with very little sexual experience is okay being with a person who they have now given 30 previous partners is ridiculous.  It would never ever ever happen.  They could be married for 10 years and his mind would go back there at times. 

[C-Trayne]

Your over thinking this...

[Nogravitasatall]

I did get inflamed. Don't countenance slut as term of derision, fictional or no. Concede nut on this and other things. Agree this is fiction. But I can't be happy with the term, and connotations. It matters. But I will work on being civil, if I overstepped.

[Nogravitasatall]

And in a more believable world Leonard would probably never get over her having that many partners before him.  It would nag at him.  It would make her harder to trust.  It would make it harder to believe she could love only him and be satisfied for the rest of their lives together with just him because she is a very sexual person. He would always know that with that many partners several of them had to be better than him in bed.   Asking us to believe that a guy with very little sexual experience is okay being with a person who they have now given 30 previous partners is ridiculous.  It would never ever ever happen.  They could be married for 10 years and his mind would go back there at times. 

Not necessarily...

[Nogravitasatall]

And I'm out. Thanks Ar Diem.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Nogravitasatall

[Ar Diem]

So i think we are all at that point where we have our own biases or opinions of how certain things in the show are perceived.  This isn't a bad thing merely human nature... one of my favorite quotes says "when you put 3 people in a room you'll end up with six opinions."  My point here is we can argue for the rest of our lives but is anyone's opinion gonna change?

 

That being said i have only one more point to add before i tap out from this argument.  I feel like you are stuck in this idea Ar Diem that because someone has sex they are not suited for relationship material.  (Side note: if 15 is considered high then i know that at least half my college is way above average is this field)

 

I've said this before but it seems to have been overlooked so lets make it clear  *throat clear* ITS BEEN 11 YEARS!  An extremely large number of those encounters came BEFORE her four year relationship with Kurt which took place just before the show started. So from when she was 15 to about 19 most of those sexual partners rolled through.  Could u say she was a slut during this time?  Maybe but that's not the point of my argument

 

 

And the point that you and others keep missing is that it didn't have to be 30.  It was an assault on her character.  If it were the only one it would be one thing but it isn't.  They didn't have to paint her as a slut, they don't have to remind us in almost every episode she likes to drink, they never had to have her try and sleep with Raj, with as little screen time as she gets she doesn't need to be in dumpy clothes so much, she didn't have to be a career waitress, she doesn't have to be depressed or bitter at times, and she doesn't have to be a relationship flake.

 

She doesn't have to be perfect but they could have progressed her a little in some areas.

 

We went from he was lucky to land her to she is lucky to keep him, why?  

 

Would you argue that he is the catch now?   Would you argue that she would be lucky to have him?

[goblyn-ina-trenchcoat]

i dont use the term slut for penny.

i believe the accurate word is skank.

[Ar Diem]

I did get inflamed. Don't countenance slut as term of derision, fictional or no. Concede nut on this and other things. Agree this is fiction. But I can't be happy with the term, and connotations. It matters. But I will work on being civil, if I overstepped.

 

No worries.  I love to debate so I take most things with a grain of salt but attacking women pushes a button of mine, as it should.  Everyone has negative qualities that end in a term that is not nice.  I have mine and I own them.

[Nogravitasatall]

i dont use the term slut for penny. i believe the accurate word is skank.

Ouch.

[Nogravitasatall]

For another thread, how do you all feel about Inara? Go...

[goblyn-ina-trenchcoat]

For another thread, how do you all feel about Inara? Go...

very pricey prostitute.

[C-Trayne]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Ar Diem" data-cid="76146" data-time="1355538918"><p>

And the point that you and others keep missing is that it didn't have to be 30. It was an assault on her character. If it were the only one it would be one thing but it isn't. They didn't have to paint her as a slut, they don't have to remind us in almost every episode she likes to drink, they never had to have her try and sleep with Raj, with as little screen time as she gets she doesn't need to be in dumpy clothes so much, she didn't have to be a career waitress, she doesn't have to be depressed or bitter at times, and she doesn't have to be a relationship flake.<br />

<br />

She doesn't have to be perfect but they could have progressed her a little in some areas.<br />

<br />

We went from he was lucky to land her to she is lucky to keep him, why? <br />

<br />

Would you argue that he is the catch now? Would you argue that she would be lucky to have him?</p></blockquote>

I really don't think this scene was a derogatory as u seem to think it was... it simply brought up the fact that penny lived a care free life when she was younger. It was supposed to call her a slut and I don't think was supposed to bring her down as much as it did...

Also on your last point I don't think either of them is a catch. I think at this stage in their relationship they are equal. They both have plusses and minuses that they bring to the table