bostrich Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 I don't see sleeping with 30 people over 10 years as an intended character assassination. Some may find that unacceptable, but not everyone does. The number represents that she is more sexually experienced than the guys. If they wanted to assassinate her character they would have gone much higher. I don't personally think she drinks all that much either for someone who is about her age. Yes, she over does it sometimes but so do a lot of single people in their twenties. Even if Leonard did have a problem with it, it's still his problem. The idea that sex with your partner is only special if you save up so you end up on the right number that society deems acceptable is outdated. I don't think how easy Penny may or may not be to get into bed negates the "specialness" of the emotional connection that exists between these fictional characters. It was mentioned that Raj, Stuart and Penny are all in the same boat. Raj and Stuart are clearly deeply unhappy with their current lot, but the same isn't true for Penny. Penny is unhappy with her job, but (post-S4) doesn't spend her time wallowing like the other two. As for character development, yes she hasn't had any large career success like Howard, but she's had a long emotional journey since her breakup with Leonard in S3. We are only now finally seeing the beginning of her character having more mature outlook on life. Changes in her career will probably flow on from that. In other words, keep watching. Penny is supposed to be at least five years younger than the other characters—that has been stated as one of the major sources of conflict in her relationship with Leonard. A realistic comparison would be comparing Penny now to the Howard of S1. I doubt he changed much between 22-27. She's only now reaching the age where many single people form serious relationships. She's starting an emotional growth at an age appropriate for her character. As for Penny looking dumpy? She was made up sloppily in last week's episode specifically for the joke that she was the manliest person the guys knew. If you think she looks bad at another time in recent memory, than I'm sorry I just don't see it. I think the character's casual clothes look very nice. She dresses in jeans and a nice top. Perfectly age appropriate. If you think the costumers are trying to send some negative message about the character, I don't see it. As always YMMV. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensor Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 I don't see sleeping with 30 people over 10 years as an intended character assassination. Some may find that unacceptable, but not everyone does. Hell, I was aware of some girls in college back in the early 70s for whom 30 partners in a SCHOOL YEAR was not out of the question (boyfriend of the week and all). And I don't recall anyone judging them as sluts (well, OK, the one or two who where playing duck, duck, goose with a different dorm room each night, yeah). I wasn't active in that area at all during that time frame (I was 16 when I started my freshman year and socially inept), but I was aware of what was happening around me. So 30 over 10 years looks virginial, in some respects. After all, that's basically getting laid about once every four months. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogravitasatall Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Those girls that were busy in college in the 70s may be happy grand parents now. And for many women that have had poor outcomes, its not because of the sex, it's some other trauma that they are trying to fix with the sex. I'm happier assuming that Penny was just an amateur enthusiast, as that is how she appears to me to have been written. I also understand Leonard's remark about PE, cause I remember thinking why wasn't there a practical class for this, way back when. Maybe all this can be spun around, but from what I see on screen Penny is not at all messed up; a bit self recriminating perhaps, but otherwise ok, beyond the overstatements of her past experiences blown up for comedic contrast against the blokes. Not deserving of the unwelcome "slut" label at all. "And now I'm done", fumbles for water bottle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny-cake Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Alex texting Leonard after the ILY. Ruined the whole mood. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Trayne Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 I'm deferring all future arguments on the subject to Bostrich's post... Nicely done! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthage Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 Any moment involving Kripke unfortunately Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar Diem Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 I really don't think this scene was a derogatory as u seem to think it was... it simply brought up the fact that penny lived a care free life when she was younger. It was supposed to call her a slut and I don't think was supposed to bring her down as much as it did... Also on your last point I don't think either of them is a catch. I think at this stage in their relationship they are equal. They both have plusses and minuses that they bring to the table Ok. I am done with this debate now. I have tried numerous times to make people try and see how bad that scene was in context and it keeps coming back to being only about the sex history. Everyone has ignored how they have taken care of Howard but refuse to take care of Penny. Think whatever you want but they have made her into a girl that brings nothing but sex, good looks, and love to the relationship and in reality that is a recipe for divorce after 3 or 4 years. I will try and pretend that their relationship is still believable too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Trayne Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 I know that they "fixed" Howard... and we have said multiple times that they are in the process of fixing Penny. Its not going to happen instantaneously and from where she was in season 3 I think she has made tremendous improvement. We have seen her grow emotionally and open up not only just to friends but to Leonard as well. All through season 6 you can pull out examples of changes in her character that differ from who she was. I know it seems like shes a nobody right now and in reality your kind of right. She still has a low end job and an average IQ at best, but you have to see its about more than that. Leonard doesn't care that she isn't bringing anything to the relationship besides herself. That's all he needs and that's all he wants from her, he has made this clear numerous times. He loves her for who she is and for the joy and wonder that she brought into his life that he hadn't really experienced before she moved in next door. That's what makes their relationship special. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
goblyn-ina-trenchcoat Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 in s3 penny was the snowflake princess. that was the fairytale. to fix penny thats where she needs to return. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BangerMain Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Think whatever you want but they have made her into a girl that brings nothing but sex, good looks, and love to the relationship and in reality that is a recipe for divorce after 3 or 4 years. I will try and pretend that their relationship is still believable too. What you say is very true in the real world. But Penny is being rebuilt or more accurately retrofitted to become the loving mate for Leonard in the future. The history of what they did to her character over the last five years would be an interesting study, you could get whiplash following all the changes but since this is all fiction they can ignore the rules of the real world and place her where ever they want without being completely logical Edited December 16, 2012 by BangerMain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensor Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 Think whatever you want but they have made her into a girl that brings nothing but sex, good looks, and love to the relationship and in reality that is a recipe for divorce after 3 or 4 years. I will try and pretend that their relationship is still believable too. Hmmmmmm, so you're saying a frigid, non-attractive woman who doesn't love me would be the recipe for my long-term marriage? There's more to then just those three things. Penny has tried to understand Leonard's hobbies, to the point that she can, and has, quoted different aspects of various science fiction universes. She's returned to college to be a better partner. She's taken an interest in Leonard's work. The three things you mention and the three things I mentioned are about what my wife and I had at the time of our marriage(well, she had the good looks, not me), and we're still together after 30+ years. I'd much rather love the woman who loves me and work on the rest of it. At least you can work on the rest of it, if you have the love between you. It's awfully hard to work on the rest of it, if there isn't any love there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogravitasatall Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Hmmmmmm, so you're saying a frigid, non-attractive woman who doesn't love me would be the recipe for my long-term marriage? There's more to then just those three things. Penny has tried to understand Leonard's hobbies, to the point that she can, and has, quoted different aspects of various science fiction universes. She's returned to college to be a better partner. She's taken an interest in Leonard's work. The three things you mention and the three things I mentioned are about what my wife and I had at the time of our marriage(well, she had the good looks, not me), and we're still together after 30+ years. I'd much rather love the woman who loves me and work on the rest of it. At least you can work on the rest of it, if you have the love between you. It's awfully hard to work on the rest of it, if there isn't any love there. Ok. I am done with this debate now. I have tried numerous times to make people try and see how bad that scene was in context and it keeps coming back to being only about the sex history. Everyone has ignored how they have taken care of Howard but refuse to take care of Penny. Think whatever you want but they have made her into a girl that brings nothing but sex, good looks, and love to the relationship and in reality that is a recipe for divorce after 3 or 4 years. I will try and pretend that their relationship is still believable too. Hi Ar Diem, I just want to say too that where Penny is now is not where Penny may end up. My wife was a bit like Penny - though much hotter of course (hi honey). She now has an undergraduate degree, a masters and is currently a doctoral candidate, all through part time study, plus having kids. I'm the arm candy. It did not fall in her lap, as she got there by pursuing opportunities and persevering. So the story of Penny is not over yet. And Leonard won't get bored and they won't divorce - if they have the love. And my wife was about Penny's age when we two met and she started her studies, and I don't ask and she don't tell about her life as a competent adult before I met her. And I don't care one iota. I really don't see all of it as a fairy story. I have no problem suspending my disbelief (just can't stop writing And). Hold onto the hope, man. M Edited December 16, 2012 by Nogravitasatall Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
goblyn-ina-trenchcoat Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 why is p/r still a problem? not just the events and incidents that led to the "thing that happened", .. not just location. think about this. If it was leonerd not howard in penny's bed with the whore of omaha would there have been a lenny at all? i still think this is a valid question. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar Diem Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 Guys, I realize they may fix her and I hope they do. What I am saying is that as of this moment she is not good girlfriend material. She has no plans, no realistic goals, and no achievements. Even her taking a college course is nothing more than dipping her toe into a possible plan and they couldn't even give her that without cheating on a paper. They can't give her a pure "I love you" moment without having her very recently thinking of breaking it off. Their relationship is not believable right now nor is it still believable that Leonard still feels he can't do better. They need to fix her and stop with these half-hearted efforts. It is nice they sent her to take a college course it is not nice they make her a bad student and a cheater. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostrich Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 I understand what you are saying. However, if they fix Penny's immaturity too early they have to find another source of conflict to sustain interest in the relationship over likely 3-4 more seasons. I'd prefer they take the slow route with her then create more drama about whether they really love each other, surprise pregnancies etc. I think the lead female being too immature for the relationship is a nice change to the usual immature male based relationship problems often found in these sort of shows. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Trayne Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 Guys, I realize they may fix her and I hope they do. What I am saying is that as of this moment she is not good girlfriend material. She has no plans, no realistic goals, and no achievements. Even her taking a college course is nothing more than dipping her toe into a possible plan and they couldn't even give her that without cheating on a paper. They can't give her a pure "I love you" moment without having her very recently thinking of breaking it off. That may be true for someone like you but in reality, like i said above Leonard doesn't care about these things. She brings herself to the relationship and thats all he wants. If it were up to him Penny would probably stay home so she was always there when he came home. This debate is going in circles and i feel like everyone is just reiterating their same points over and over again (myself included) it is what is is. I think its time to accept this and move on cause we could arguee the matter until the shows end and still not wind up on the same side Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
goblyn-ina-trenchcoat Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 we all joined this site to geek out over a tv show. ....... we are on the same side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar Diem Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 That may be true for someone like you but in reality, like i said above Leonard doesn't care about these things. She brings herself to the relationship and thats all he wants. If it were up to him Penny would probably stay home so she was always there when he came home. This debate is going in circles and i feel like everyone is just reiterating their same points over and over again (myself included) it is what is is. I think its time to accept this and move on cause we could arguee the matter until the shows end and still not wind up on the same side At least we agree that in reality someone would normally care that his girlfriend has no direction in life on top of all of her other baggage especially since he has dated women of greater quality. I just realized that is another way in which the show has dogged her. Every other serious relationship he has been in has been with women more accomplished than Penny. You can't count the crude woman because he was not serious about her. You are right though this has gotten old now. I want the show to be more believable and you don't care that it isn't. I see a pattern of the show tearing her down and you don't think it is that bad. We can leave it there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Trayne Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 hmm a little black and white about it but sure lets go with that... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmp Posted December 29, 2012 Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) My least favorite moments were Sheldon's flatulence in Cruciferous Vegetable. Yes, I know it's a normal human process but to me fart jokes aren't funny. Also, a contribution to the 30 sexual partners debate...they never said she had 30 partners. Sheldon SPECULATED based on math based on a set of assumptions that she had had 30 sexual partners, and he even said there was a margin of error. Recall that she denied it in the episode. (By the way, that math was terrible. I have a master's degree in statistics and it jumped out at me that there's not enough information to warrant the assumptions on which that argument was based.) To me, since 30 partners was not confirmed, the question of whether 30 partners makes her promiscuous is moot. Edited December 29, 2012 by tmp Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogravitasatall Posted December 29, 2012 Posted December 29, 2012 Its not about the facts, is all about pre judging, beliefs and drinking the shows cool aid. Objectivity is suspended, along with disbelief. Is ART. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kati Posted December 31, 2012 Posted December 31, 2012 I seriously dislike the episode Sheldon takes acting class with Penny. The whole deal. I don't find it funny. But moments I dislike... I have a problem with Amy, and I'm a bit tired of these 'girl reunion' moments. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmp Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 i just thought of a least favorite moment. I cringe anytime Howard makes a joke about wishing his mother would die. I get the gag about their strange relationship, but that's harsh. My husband had an oddly similar relationship with his mother until she passed away three years ago. He was devastated, so those jokes touch a raw nerve with him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachelshamyfan Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 I'm not overly keen on the speckerman episode and jimmy speckerman probably the most awful character I have seen in a long time and not just because he was a bully but the bad acting Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted January 16, 2013 Posted January 16, 2013 The first appearance of Bernadette Bernadete & Howard get together Bernadette & Howard get married ANY & EVERY moment with Priya other than her last The moment (whenever that specific moment was) that Amy became Sheldon's girlfriend Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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