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6.14 The Cooper/kripke Inversion (Jan. 31)


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Oh come on! Besides the fact that I cannot stand the assertion that people like "you" watch the show for some intellectual reason that is above what the rest of "us" care about, which gets thrown around a lot on here, if you really only watched the show for the geeky culture you wouldn't be spending your time making far fetched analyses about when L/P and S/A will break up so Shenny can happen and then pretend that you do not watch it for the ships. Bet the reaction would have been very different if Kripke had implied Sheldon sleeps with Penny. 

 

Sheldon isn't a Homo Novus because he wants to sleep with his girlfriend? What was he going to do with Penny? Clean her apartment? They are normalizing geeks? When the end of the episode was precisely about the girls geeking out instead? How does THAT part get ignored? The show was FROM THE START about Penny getting the guys out of their shell and the guys getting Penny to grow up. Yes, the character have changed because that is storytelling 101, with a beginning, a middle part, and and end. This is not the Simpsons. 

 

I also find it interesting that so many here complain about the science the science the science and yet there were only 3 of us on this thread who were trying to have a conversation about the science mistake in this episode, and all three of us are also into a ship. (At least I think Bangermain is too, but correct me if I'm wrong). 

 

eta: Also, the reason why people discuss the ships so much is because they are the only thing that is an ongoing progress that we have information for and we know will continue to be brought up in the future, hence being the perfect topic for speculation and analysis. You can't analyse other things on the show because there isn't a continuity regarding those, for example you never know what the theme of the next episode is going to be about, or what geeky/science topic will be brought up, and once it's brought up it isn't used again and so on. But there are also pages and pages of discussion about things like Penny's job and character development, for the same reason why there's ships discussion, because of the nature of the topic it is more suitable for long conversations than other things. 

 

You are right, I'm into L/P, S/A and H/B. I also dig the science and tech in a big way.

Edited by BangerMain
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Sheldon has lied before without twitching. It's just another one of those quirks that get turned on and off at will. He lied about Leonard meeting the barmaid when he slept with Priya, he lied to Amy's mother about them having sex, just to mention a couple. He is just a terrible liar, and can't keep a secret, but if he can premeditate it he tries. 

 

Yes you're right, he has. Sheldon's inability to lie was established in 1.10 when Leonard told Penny he couldn't go to see her performance and Sheldon went nutso and invented a whole other reason. I think The Irish Pub Formulation was very similar to this, when he made up a waitress as a cover story when Leonard slept with Priya. He had it all worked out down to the orangutang hair. I just love it when Sheldon can't deceive. It was so funny when he moved out of the apartment, just because he couldn't keep a secret from Leonard and it was only Howard giving him one of his mothers pills, that made him spill the beans. The tic started getting featured in Season 2 but they kind of lost in Season 4. I miss it.

The episode when Sheldon lied to Amy's mother was a sort of turning point. Sheldon could lie to someone on a computer screen. He doesn't have to invent a cousin with a drug problem, or go all 'face crazy' anymore. I guess this episode made it stick out to me because he looked Kripke in the eye. He's a terrible liar but he can do it now. I may be wrong but I don't think if we will see the return of the tic.

 

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I also find it interesting that so many here complain about the science the science the science and yet there were only 3 of us on this thread who were trying to have a conversation about the science mistake in this episode, and all three of us are also into a ship. (At least I think Bangermain is too, but correct me if I'm wrong). 

 

It does depend on who is online at the time though. I saw a post saying Sheldon and Kripke have different fields?? but I had nothing to add so I didn't post. I thought the same thing when Sheldon and Raj worked together.

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It does depend on who is online at the time though. I saw a post saying Sheldon and Kripke have different fields?? but I had nothing to add so I didn't post. I thought the same thing when Sheldon and Raj worked together.

 

 

My point is, why are there pages and pages of people complaining about Sheldon and the show's direction all over these boards, using the smokescreen that the show should be about the science and the geek culture and not relationships, and yet nobody is interested in discussing the science mistakes over Sheldon's imaginary sex life? It's not just about who's online because if people really cared about that as much as they claim to, you'd have pages and pages about science mistakes that you can get involved in any time of day, not pages and pages about how crap the show has become now that they have girlfriends. That tells me that, just as there are some people who only care about the romance, there are other people who only care about the fact that they do not want the romance. But the latter try to rationalize their dislike by sounding like Ramona Nowitzki "We should focus on the science and the geeks, not the kissing and the cuddling!" when they don't focus on the geeks and the science either. 

 

I don't have a problem with people preferring asexual Sheldon, as long as they can just admit that that's what's bothering them and don't pretend that it's because they care about the science and the girlfriend is distracting him from his work. In a sense, I find that this episode is a fantastic pisstake of that classic cliche' and I wonder whether it's the writers' way to have a bit of a jab at that.

 

People feel more strongly about relationships, be it pro or against, that's the way it is. And it's not exclusive to this show. But I don't think there's a massive difference between people who squeal all the time and people who complain all the time, because it's the same thing that it's the focus of the conversation. If I were watching the show only for the science and the geekness I'd have a much bigger problem with the science mistakes than whether or not Sheldon wants to have sex. It really does bother me when a particle theorist works with an astrophysicist and I hear Amy talking about the right and left hemispheres in terms of the creative and analytical sides of the brain BS. THAT bothers me. I don't think that those mistakes have anything to do with the ships, and those are the mistakes that bother me when a show claims to be so accurate about their science.

 

But when I point out those inconsistencies people are like "Well, it's a show, they just want to be funny" and the conversation dies there, but when Sheldon touches Amy's thermometer with no bio-suit on everyone is like "OMG!!! ERRORS!!! CONTINUITY!! THIS IS A SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE!". That leads me to ask the question: do you really care about the science and the continuity or only when it suits your preferences?

Edited by spook
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What I find not only here but in other forums for shows that didn't delve quite so heavily into the relationship aspect at first is that people simple DO NOT like change.  If Sheldon said in episdoe 1.02 that girls are icky then he CANNOT change in episode 6.14.  There is no such thing as growth.  There is no such thing as finding the RIGHT person.

What makes Shamy work and what makes it so interesting is that Amy is the one woman who makes Sheldon want to be a better man.  That quote he said from the spiderman movie in (sorry can't remember the episode name) I think was more truthful then just repeating something he remembered.  It was the truth.

 

Throw in something I can learn(granted I cannot intelligently discuss science) and some of the funniest lines and you've got yourself a winner. 
 

But just like anything in life, you have to roll with the tide.  And I agree with those who say that if you truly don't like a show, use that off switch on your remote.  It always seemed funny to me that people will watch a show just to bash on it.  Really?  And they say I need to find a life...:)

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My point is, why are there pages and pages of people complaining about Sheldon and the show's direction all over these boards, using the smokescreen that the show should be about the science and the geek culture and not relationships, and yet nobody is interested in discussing the science mistakes over Sheldon's imaginary sex life? It's not just about who's online because if people really cared about that as much as they claim to, you'd have pages and pages about science mistakes that you can get involved in any time of day, not pages and pages about how crap the show has become now that they have girlfriends. That tells me that, just as there are some people who only care about the romance, there are other people who only care about the fact that they do not want the romance. But the latter try to rationalize their dislike by sounding like Ramona Nowitzki "We should focus on the science and the geeks, not the kissing and the cuddling!" when they don't focus on the geeks and the science either. 

 

I don't have a problem with people preferring asexual Sheldon, as long as they can just admit that that's what's bothering them and don't pretend that it's because they care about the science and the girlfriend is distracting him from his work. In a sense, I find that this episode is a fantastic pisstake of that classic cliche' and I wonder whether it's the writers' way to have a bit of a jab at that.

 

People feel more strongly about relationships, be it pro or against, that's the way it is. And it's not exclusive to this show. But I don't think there's a massive difference between people who squeal all the time and people who complain all the time, because it's the same thing that it's the focus of the conversation. If I were watching the show only for the science and the geekness I'd have a much bigger problem with the science mistakes than whether or not Sheldon wants to have sex. It really does bother me when a particle theorist works with an astrophysicist and I hear Amy talking about the right and left hemispheres in terms of the creative and analytical sides of the brain BS. THAT bothers me. I don't think that those mistakes have anything to do with the ships, and those are the mistakes that bother me when a show claims to be so accurate about their science.

 

But when I point out those inconsistencies people are like "Well, it's a show, they just want to be funny" and the conversation dies there, but when Sheldon touches Amy's thermometer with no bio-suit on everyone is like "OMG!!! ERRORS!!! CONTINUITY!! THIS IS A SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE!". That leads me to ask the question: do you really care about the science and the continuity or only when it suits your preferences?

 

Well I do. I don't think you can say nobody cares, but I get a sense that people care less then they did. I saw the post about the science not being the same but there was nothing to add. If I had the knowledge I would have written something, but I don't know who would work together on this kind of project. We do have some people here who could have added something but saying this is proof no one cares is not necessarily true. These episode threads get long and I don't always read them myself. I spot inconsistencies and character changes more than science errors simply because they I don't always have the knowledge to spot science errors. 

 

I have been involved in many debates and discussions about errors of all kinds, including some science topics. I get around on this board and participate in everything and anything. We just don't have as many of those discussions here anymore. A lot of people post on one singular topic, on both sides of the argument. I agree that there are some who only have one complaint and don't participate in anything else. They are not helping their argument.

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My point is, why are there pages and pages of people complaining about Sheldon and the show's direction all over these boards, using the smokescreen that the show should be about the science and the geek culture and not relationships, and yet nobody is interested in discussing the science mistakes over Sheldon's imaginary sex life? It's not just about who's online because if people really cared about that as much as they claim to, you'd have pages and pages about science mistakes that you can get involved in any time of day, not pages and pages about how crap the show has become now that they have girlfriends. That tells me that, just as there are some people who only care about the romance, there are other people who only care about the fact that they do not want the romance. But the latter try to rationalize their dislike by sounding like Ramona Nowitzki "We should focus on the science and the geeks, not the kissing and the cuddling!" when they don't focus on the geeks and the science either. 

 

I don't have a problem with people preferring asexual Sheldon, as long as they can just admit that that's what's bothering them and don't pretend that it's because they care about the science and the girlfriend is distracting him from his work. In a sense, I find that this episode is a fantastic pisstake of that classic cliche' and I wonder whether it's the writers' way to have a bit of a jab at that.

 

People feel more strongly about relationships, be it pro or against, that's the way it is. And it's not exclusive to this show. But I don't think there's a massive difference between people who squeal all the time and people who complain all the time, because it's the same thing that it's the focus of the conversation. If I were watching the show only for the science and the geekness I'd have a much bigger problem with the science mistakes than whether or not Sheldon wants to have sex. It really does bother me when a particle theorist works with an astrophysicist and I hear Amy talking about the right and left hemispheres in terms of the creative and analytical sides of the brain BS. THAT bothers me. I don't think that those mistakes have anything to do with the ships, and those are the mistakes that bother me when a show claims to be so accurate about their science.

 

But when I point out those inconsistencies people are like "Well, it's a show, they just want to be funny" and the conversation dies there, but when Sheldon touches Amy's thermometer with no bio-suit on everyone is like "OMG!!! ERRORS!!! CONTINUITY!! THIS IS A SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE!". That leads me to ask the question: do you really care about the science and the continuity or only when it suits your preferences?

 

 

Not so sound too rude but who are you that I should care what bothers you?  Why is what you post better than anyone else?  Why should anyone have to justify their opinions to you?

 

It is a TV show.  Nothing that is said or done here matters in the greater scheme of things.  If someone wants to say Sheldon is the worst character in the history of television, who cares?

 

We should stick to discussing opinions not the people who have them.  Stop making things personal.  If you don't like what you read either stop reading it or get over it.

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Not so sound too rude but who are you that I should care what bothers you?  Why is what you post better than anyone else?  Why should anyone have to justify their opinions to you?

 

It is a TV show.  Nothing that is said or done here matters in the greater scheme of things.  If someone wants to say Sheldon is the worst character in the history of television, who cares?

 

We should stick to discussing opinions not the people who have them.  Stop making things personal.  If you don't like what you read either stop reading it or get over it.

 

I wasn't making a case for people having to care about what bothers ME, when I said "that bothers me", it was just an example. And I wasn't the one who made it personal: annieogly came up with the majority vs minority argument and I simply replied to that. I don't expect people to justify their opinions, but when people imply that they know what "most people" think or why they like the things they do, like annie did, I will reply in a personal way, yes. I've had plenty of discussions focused on the opinions, not the people, the only times I make it personal is to reply to comments where generalizations about people are being made and the pedestals start coming out. 

 

I do stay out of threads that I know will annoy me all the time, btw. I know when to step out because I've had enough. I don't chase people around to change their minds. But your last sentence is kind of ironic because I could say the same to you about the show: if you don't like what you see, turn off the tv or get over it. 

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Well I do. I don't think you can say nobody cares, but I get a sense that people care less then they did. I saw the post about the science not being the same but there was nothing to add. If I had the knowledge I would have written something, but I don't know who would work together on this kind of project. We do have some people here who could have added something but saying this is proof no one cares is not necessarily true. These episode threads get long and I don't always read them myself. I spot inconsistencies and character changes more than science errors simply because they I don't always have the knowledge to spot science errors. 

 

I have been involved in many debates and discussions about errors of all kinds, including some science topics. I get around on this board and participate in everything and anything. We just don't have as many of those discussions here anymore. A lot of people post on one singular topic, on both sides of the argument. I agree that there are some who only have one complaint and don't participate in anything else. They are not helping their argument.

 

I didn't say no one cares at all. I know there are people who do. What I meant was that there are some people who claim that science and geek culture are all they care about, but end up only complaining about the relationships. And that seems weird to me because if science and geek culture is what matters the most to me, and there ARE lots of mistakes with that, I'd be complaining and paying attention more to that than the relationships. I remember someone was trying to discuss the mistakes in TSS with D&D and even then the discussion died quickly. Surely, if the root of the show is meant to be science and geek culture and there are mistakes with that, those are the mistakes that should hurt the show the most, rather than the relationships.

 

But, like you said, it's easier to spot character inconsistencies and developments because people are something we all relate to, whereas science and geek culture aren't. And I think that's exactly why the ships seem so popular: because it's easier to relate to that. I totally agree with that. I think it'd be nice to have some more well rounded discussions, but the problem at the moment is that the threads seem to be very polarized in one direction or the other and when there are common threads like this one we inevitably end up on the same issue that creates those polarized threads in the first place. 

Edited by spook

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Through the past few days I have been reading on my phone a number of posts and for some reason I would like to add my two cents in. If other members have already stated some of my opinions I would like to apologize in advance for the redundancy. :)

 

To the members that is/are upset with the move to relationships vs science and I believe one even said they will move to cable if it doesn't change. First off there is a specific reason the show is being viewed by upwards of 20 million viewers each week. That reason being the relationships not the "science". If TBBT only stayed with science and no relationships then you in fact would be watching it on cable. It would be on cable because very few would be watching and as most cable shows would be short lived. In addition if the science geeks are truly interested in only pure science then they would actually embrace the relationships. They would be analyzing and dissecting the relationships since they would be interested in the scientific connotations of them in relationship to the sciences of biology, psychology and even cultural anthropology. 

 

For the shenny members: I'm sorry but as Penny most eloquently said to Sheldon: "Sweetie oh you so aren't the guy!"

 

Regarding the guys being able to afford the purchase of the figures and the 3D printer: Bernie was initially upset because Howard didn't first consult her on a large expenditure. She only stated he made peanuts compared to her after he became an ass in their discussion. What spouse would actually say when you get sick I will take care of you and when I want to buy something expensive I can use your money? I know that is not exactly what he said but it is close enough. Of course Bernie would get upset. Don't forget, she was brought up in a middle class home with middle class values. She isn't use to spending money on a whim for in her view silly items. Just like Penny when Leonard asked her. She said go ahead buy it if you really think that is cool. She made her point without an argument and for them that is some type of huge growth! As a matter of fact L/P handled the issue exactly how the married couple H/B in fact should have. But Howard, is what 30 years old, yet still is an adolescent.

 

How much money everyone makes: This is a sitcom it really doesn't make any difference. I believe someone already said this, and I totally agree, the whole basis of the show is for the guys to get the girl next store to appreciate their geekdom and she brings the guys socially in to the mainstream. This is exactly what is happening. There is no big change in the show. Just continual movement to that final ending. With that said I will now state what I believe the final season will be. Taking in to consideration that 1.) AFF has a 4 year plan to marry Sheldon (Sorry again shenny shippers!) and 2.) Kaley and I believe either Johnny or Jim agreed they would like 10 years. The final season, being season 10, Amy marries Sheldon and the final episode will be Penny delivering the "both smart and beautiful baby" Leonard predicted in the first episode. At then the show has gone full circle. :)

Edited by SodidIwin?
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I loved Raj posing for the scan with his tummy and love-handles. He is such a cute pumpkin. But I love almost all the scenes Raj is in, even if the jokes are going into a freaky direction, they always make me laugh. Cause at some points my sense of humor is a simple one  :p

 

 

What I would like to add regarding the changes in the show.

 

I think it is great to have a development. I really enjoy going back to watch S1 and then S4, back to S2 etc etc. and see all the differences.  In my personal opinion I probably would be bored to death after 6 seasons without changes in canon and characters. This development keeps the show alive and running.

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Oh boy, so much negativity and then so much endless discussion about the negativity? I'm almost glad I can't sign in much nowadays, what with some pesky internet issues and too much work. With everyone's permission, I'll just stick to the episode..

 

I thought it was a sweet one, not LOL funny but touching in places. I especially loved the scenes with Sheldon, and I thought Jim was on fire in this episode, what with all he had to carry through - his 'classic' outrage and condescension with Kripke, extreme shame and sadness, a sudden tender moment with Amy, pretending to be sick, having to play a lie with Kripke (his expressions of combined discomfort and triumph were hilarious), exposing his vulnerability to Penny and Leonard.. and all of it while still being funny and not getting over-serious and sentimental with it. I truly believe only Jim could do the hug scene the way he did - his crying was caricaturish for a reason. It was the same exaggerated sobbing we've seen earlier in the season 3 premiere or the episode where he's broken by the Spock play. The scene was intense enough as it was, and holding on to the light-hearted familiarity of one aspect was the only way to keep it from becoming pure drama. Real serious tears just wouldn't have worked, and would have felt OOC for Sheldon. But even with the childish wails, his stricken face, his expressions and body language and spontaneously reaching out to touch Amy's arm, said everything that needed to be said. It's times like this that remind me that Sheldon is actually a tragi-comic character. 

 

My second favorite moment - Sheldon's scathingly sincere confession to Penny, and her reaction. Kaley absolutely KILLED it with her expressions there!

 

I wasn't so much a fan of the Howard/Bernie storyline, just because it felt rather predictable to me. I did think Raj's and Howard's reactions to their custom-made action-figures was hilarious, though. :)

 

About the science - it seems the show implies time and again that Sheldon is a sort of all-rounder when it comes to science. His primary field of research is string theory, and the associated field of theoretical particle physics, and strictly speaking, a string theorist wouldn't be given sole responsibility for a fusion reactor proposal (though the field is related to particle physics, see  http://www.physicstoday.org/resource/1/phtoad/v65/i11/p10_s3?bypassSSO=1). But we've seen him doing research all over the place, which was even less related to string theory - his work on the properties of graphene in season 3 (purely condensed matter), his collaborating with Raj on astrophysics topics (they did give a string-y slant to the initial project but then they moved on to xenon and UV light), and even dabbling in neuroscience by writing the paper on the physics/neuroscience interface with Beverly Hofstadter.  His statement 'I'm familiar with everything' comes to mind. Given this situation, it's not unrealistic for the university to hand him the job, since he's considered a 'beautiful mind'. 

 

It's also possibly implied that Kripke works in a field more closely related to a fusion reactor project (it's never been specified). In that case it makes sense that his work would be 'leaps and bounds' ahead of Sheldon, just by virtue of expertise in the topic, while for Sheldon it's just one of the many things he knows and does. Sheldon might have been beating himself up unnecessarily, as he's done sometimes earlier, with the kind of ego and intense demands for perfection he has from himself. 

Edited by Pomita
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About the science - it seems the show implies time and again that Sheldon is a sort of all-rounder when it comes to science. His primary field of research is string theory, and the associated field of theoretical particle physics, and strictly speaking, a string theorist wouldn't be given sole responsibility for a fusion reactor proposal (though the field is related to particle physics, see  http://www.physicstoday.org/resource/1/phtoad/v65/i11/p10_s3?bypassSSO=1). 

 

Thank you so much for this!!! :) 

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Thank you so much for this!!! :) 

I am really sorry I brought this science error up and I want to apologize to anyone who got affended by resulting emails resulting from it. It is just that when they said that they were working on a proposal for a fusion reactor it got my attention because I am a Nuclear Engineer. The college would not want a fusion reactor unless they had a nuclear engineering and physics department and those departments would do the proposal, not a person(s) who's speciality is particle physics. The article referenced is meaningless, I'm sorry. I got a little excited when they talked about something in my field, so I just thought I'd make the comment, but it has seemed to have caused some hard feelings, so I am truly sorry. BTW I watch the show for the humor and the character development, not the science.

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STOP WATCHING THE SHOW IF YOU DON'T LOVE EVERY SECOND OF IT!!!!! HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE DIRECTION OF THE SHOW!!!! SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!!!

Despite that reasoned argument, I intend to continue to watch the show and I also intend to continue to have my own opinions (and occasionally express them) about where the show and it's characters are going (you of course are free to do the same). If that is a problem, too bad.

Edited by eirwinrommel
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Despite that reasoned argument, I intend to continue to watch the show and I also intend to continue to have my own opinions about where the show and it's characters are going. If that is a problem, too bad.

 

Not to worry. You probalby don't know djvang. This was sarcasm.

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I wasn't making a case for people having to care about what bothers ME, when I said "that bothers me", it was just an example. And I wasn't the one who made it personal: annieogly came up with the majority vs minority argument and I simply replied to that. I don't expect people to justify their opinions, but when people imply that they know what "most people" think or why they like the things they do, like annie did, I will reply in a personal way, yes. I've had plenty of discussions focused on the opinions, not the people, the only times I make it personal is to reply to comments where generalizations about people are being made and the pedestals start coming out. 

 

I do stay out of threads that I know will annoy me all the time, btw. I know when to step out because I've had enough. I don't chase people around to change their minds. But your last sentence is kind of ironic because I could say the same to you about the show: if you don't like what you see, turn off the tv or get over it. 

 

 

Right.  That is the vibe I get here on a regular basis.  Only positive views are appreciated and anything negative is picked apart.  Maybe all TV show message boards are this way.  I wouldn't know because this is my first but this is an extremely unwelcoming board.  I don't understand why we are not all kind and respectful of each other.

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But on another note...

 

No one seems to be talking about the most interesting revelation in the show.

 

They have now pointed out the Sheldon isn't really all that smart. Sure Sheldon is a smart guy, but Kripke is apparently way ahead of him. What ever happened with the idea that Sheldon is a genious?

 

Sheldon is being "normalized" to the point that there won't be anything special about him.

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But on another note...

 

No one seems to be talking about the most interesting revelation in the show.

 

They have now pointed out the Sheldon isn't really all that smart. Sure Sheldon is a smart guy, but Kripke is apparently way ahead of him. What ever happened with the idea that Sheldon is a genious?

 

Sheldon is being "normalized" to the point that there won't be anything special about him.

 

I don't think they're saying that Sheldon isn't all that smart.  In this one instance, Kripke is ahead of him and it really got to him.  As Leonard said, he just got stuck on a wrong path.  Everybody has an off day or an off project, even those beautiful minds.

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Right.  That is the vibe I get here on a regular basis.  Only positive views are appreciated and anything negative is picked apart.  Maybe all TV show message boards are this way.  I wouldn't know because this is my first but this is an extremely unwelcoming board.  I don't understand why we are not all kind and respectful of each other.

 

I have no idea Ar Diem, this is the only board I've been on too and I've found that any kind of critique is unwelcome and there is strong bullying tone. I mean how ridiculous was it that I had to request a special thread for Shenny shippers? And they won't come back.

 

As for Spook, I've actually posted a number of times how I'd deal with Sheldon being a Homo Novus & attracted to a  female; pattern it on his hero Spock and it would be deeply funny to see Sheldon struggle with kohlinar and his burgeoning sexuality. Many have agreed with me, but the writers right now are utterly mediocre. What I find bizarre is that few want to discuss the sea change with Sheldon's character and rather dismiss it....

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