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a self absorbed, bat crap crazy head case with a hardcore drinking problem.

:) or a lovelorn young women seeking solace from unbearable heartache. Edited by Nogravitasatall
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:) or a lovelorn young women seeking solace from unbearable heartache.

 

If it was heartache it was self-inflicted, remember she dumped Lenard (publicly btw) and then in one episode would act as if she missed Lenard and then the next act as if she had zero interest.

 

For me it all came to ahead in the convention episode where she rejected him (again publicly) and left with the “massive missile”.

I recently re-watched season four (still think it is the weakest of all the seasons) and the writers after the mentioned episode actually wrote Lenard semi-realistically.  After the “massive missile” Lenard quit chasing Penny and moved on.

The problem was Penny didn’t come across as simply flawed (all the characters on this show have serious flaws), but she also came across as kind of mean spirited, weak, and generally a bit nasty.

 

Edited by Dbear12

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If it was heartache it was self-inflicted, remember she dumped Lenard (publicly btw) and then in one episode would act as if she missed Lenard and then the next act as if she had zero interest.

For me it all came to ahead in the convention episode where she rejected him (again publicly) and left with the “massive missile”.

I recently re-watched season four (still think it is the weakest of all the seasons) and the writers after the mentioned episode actually wrote Lenard semi-realistically. After the “massive missile” Lenard quit chasing Penny and moved on.

The problem was Penny didn’t come across as simply flawed (all the characters on this show have serious flaws), but she also came across as kind of mean spirited, weak, and generally a bit nasty.

I'm fine with that. Just that she was not a bat crap crazy head case. I pass by those daily. :) Edited by Nogravitasatall

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If it was heartache it was self-inflicted, remember she dumped Lenard (publicly btw) and then in one episode would act as if she missed Lenard and then the next act as if she had zero interest.

For me it all came to ahead in the convention episode where she rejected him (again publicly) and left with the “massive missile”.

I recently re-watched season four (still think it is the weakest of all the seasons) and the writers after the mentioned episode actually wrote Lenard semi-realistically. After the “massive missile” Lenard quit chasing Penny and moved on.

The problem was Penny didn’t come across as simply flawed (all the characters on this show have serious flaws), but she also came across as kind of mean spirited, weak, and generally a bit nasty.

I think what your missing a big point and that is penny didn't really start missing Leonard till after priya came into the picture which was after these other example your presenting.

While yes she seemed a little back and forth in the beginning that's to be expected of newly broken up couples that may/may not have feelings for each other.

The important thing is once we saw her breakdown towards the end of the season about messing things up with Leonard that is the way her opinion stayed.

Also rememeber a big part of their break up came from the lies spread by Wheaton. Sure they might have been in an argument but idk if she would have gone so far without the outside push

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:) or a lovelorn young women seeking solace from unbearable heartache. 

 

 Ummm....yeah....i don't know...sounds like some pretty weak tea. I'm gonna need some help on that.
 
The way I see it, this is Penny before WW....
  1. Was worried dating Leonard (1st time) could ruin their friendship == "Schrödinger's cat"
  2. Broke it off after one date - because she felt she wasn’t smart or good enough for him. 
  3. Helps Leonard with Stephanie, after he realizes Stephanie moved in and is moving too fast for him.
  4. Confronts and gets into a catfight with the Dead Hooker about using the guys.
  5. After ripping Leonard apart for buying the time machine, toys, comics, etc., later apologizes as says ”Look, you are a great guy, and it is things you love that make you who you are.”
  6. Breaks it off (second time) – because she wasn’t ready to say ILY back to Leonard and let WW get into her head / convince her that it was better and more merciful to end a relationship than string someone along.  Tell Leonard “I’m sorry, it’s not fair to you” 
This is Penny after WW....
  1. Penny gets mad at Leonard for sleeping with Dr. Elizabeth Plimpton…even though she broke it off and supposedly has a habit of having rebound sex with random guys
  2. Goes out with Zach, comes back drunk and uses Leonard for sex…yet slams the door on Leonard when he tries to use the friends with benefit card
  3. Takes Shamy out on their 1st date and comes back a slut
  4. During "Truth or Dare" admits her relationship with Leonard got too serious, too fast...Invites Leonard to enter the Neutral Zone, yet shoots him down in public for saying they tried to get back together.
  5. Has a complete meltdown when Leonard and Priya start dating.
  6. After confiding to Raj, that she made a mistake breaking up with Leonard, gets so drunk that she sleeps with Raj. (Imo, this was a jump the shark move.)
  7. Despite get so drunk that she can’t remember what happened the night before, and waking up naked next to Raj…runs home and pours herself a drink
  8. After finding out nothing happened with Raj, she agrees to keep it a secret for Raj “her ex-boyfriend friend who knew what was happening, yet took advantage of her anyway” / while Leonard suffers with the thought of his ex hooking up with his friend.
  9. Tells Sheldon a story about regretting not telling a guy that she really liked, how she felt about him, yet won’t say a word to Leonard or admit that she loves Sheldon and not Leonard :icon_razz:
  10. Get back together with Leonard, but more or less brags to Leonard that she has no fears about him every breaking up with her…brags to Amy that she has no fears about Leonard every hurting her
  11. Lights Leonard up for proposing in the middle of sex...ok she gets a pass on that one.

Anyway, I'm no shrink and don't play one on tv, but Penny post WW is a whackadoodle :icon_mrgreen:

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Well I think a lot of that is opinionated and semi flawed based on individual bias but I can't really break it down cause I'm on my phone...

Although I find it interesting u left out all the improvements from season 6 we have seen.

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Yup. You sort of have to take a step back and look at Penny as a whole as there were two different versions of her; normal Penny of S1-3 and FUBAR'D Penny of S4-S5. Penny's drinking and other problems, for the most part are the result of the writers efforts ( or lack of) to come up with ways to keep the L&P will they-won't they saga going in s4-5.

After the WW reoccurrence / L&P breakup, the writers threw Penny under the bus by giving her flaws that didn't really exist prior.  They repeatedly portraying Penny as more and more screwed up, and overtime morphed "normal" Penny into a self absorbed, bat crap crazy head case with a hardcore drinking problem.  Anyway, Fubar'd  Penny and the raj and penny hookup idea didn't go over very well, and generated enough negative feedback for the writers to spend much of this season unfubaring Penny. 

Had Lorre or whoever remained on course, Penny would be worse.

Penny can be one of my least favourite characters but you are really not being accurate in your judgement here: Series 1-6 Penny is a work-in-progress! She has flaws, is Not perfect and it trying her best to work through her issues. In Series 6 we relaly see the Results of all her mistakes and wrong turns. She finally has matured and has started to take responsibility for both her actions as well as her reactions. No longer does she drink to numb the pain of her mistakes or look at Leonard as the "one who got away" or the "new boring kind of love" but rather sees him as somebody she loves and wants to be with.

 

Yes, she was horrible in The Valentine's Episode but she did have her Reasons and when Leonard called her on her shite she sat down and honestly admitted her fears instead of drinking them away.

 

Brava, Penny! I may not like her as well as some of the others but I was quite Proud for how much she has Grown over the years and not stayed the same cardboard cutout she was introduced as, "Blond, pretty, ditzy/ dumb, with "street smarts" and a good heart that she wears on her sleeve only to be trampled by jerks while she over looks to Good Guy Next Door who can give her True Love.

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They need to stop "fixing" (I use the term extremely loosely) all these characters. What makes (made) them such great characters is (was) the ways in which they were all broken. They're all going from unique & funny to Joe schmo. 

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For the record, Penny went from one of my favorite characters in s1..3 to least favorite in 4 & 5, and is now back to one of my favs for S6. My up/ down/ up feelings about Penny and the show as a whole are directed related to quality and level of effort of the writers. The point that I was trying to make above was Penny's behavior in S1..3 made sense because the writers did a great job of ensuring it was consistent with a prior action.

In S4 & S5, the writers were focused on introducing Amy and Bernie, Shamy, H&B, Leonard and Priya. Penny was writen more like an afterthought and often as nothing more than window dressing. To keep the L&P saga alive, they threw Penny under the bus and trashed her by repeatedly portrayed her in a negative and erratic way with flaws that really didn't really exists before. In a similar manner, Amy was all over the place as well. To me, Penny's erratic behavior was a sign of willy-nilly writing.

S6 Penny is likable and believable again because they systematically went back and linked each fix with the flaws they added in S.4 and S.5. IMO, the quality and attention details put forth in S6 is as good or better than S1..S3, and was lacking in S4 and S5.

Edited by Kaizen
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I think the problem with Penny espicially in season 4 and the first part of season 5 was that she wasn't with Leonard. There was no way to keep them together straight thru from season 3 to the end of the show. As Kaizen mentioned above there were other things on the show then and Penny was certainly not shown in the best light. I still don't comprehend why people were so upset over the Raj/Penny sleeping together. To me that was Raj getting even with Leonard for sleeping with his sister. I kind of thought Leonard kind of got what he deserved. I think that was the beginning of the end for Priya and the start of Leonard getting back together with Penny. Season 6 has shown that Penny's insecurities and has evened the playing field for Leonard. Especially Alex hitting on Leonard knowing full well Penny was his girlfriend. They have made Penny a much more sympathetic person this year.

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I think the problem with Penny espicially in season 4 and the first part of season 5 was that she wasn't with Leonard. There was no way to keep them together straight thru from season 3 to the end of the show. As Kaizen mentioned above there were other things on the show then and Penny was certainly not shown in the best light. I still don't comprehend why people were so upset over the Raj/Penny sleeping together. To me that was Raj getting even with Leonard for sleeping with his sister. I kind of thought Leonard kind of got what he deserved. I think that was the beginning of the end for Priya and the start of Leonard getting back together with Penny. Season 6 has shown that Penny's insecurities and has evened the playing field for Leonard. Especially Alex hitting on Leonard knowing full well Penny was his girlfriend. They have made Penny a much more sympathetic person this year.

 

I think the actual problem is that her & Leonard ever got together. Well, maybe not the "Penny" problem, but the problem with what they've done with the show since. TBBT has turned from a geek inspired sit-com to a typical rom-com. The premise should have stayed that Leonard couldn't have Penny. Now Howard has Bernadette, Sheldon has Amy and Raj has become a metro-sexual d'bag. The show was MUCH better when it was about for geeks who couldn't get girls... Now it's a been there, done that a hundred times rom-com for teeny-bopper & teeny-bopper minded girls. A throw-away audience to say the least.

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Ummm....yeah....i don't know...sounds like some pretty weak tea. I'm gonna need some help on that.

The way I see it, this is Penny before WW....

  • Was worried dating Leonard (1st time) could ruin their friendship == "Schrödinger's cat"
  • Broke it off after one date - because she felt she wasn’t smart or good enough for him.
  • Helps Leonard with Stephanie, after he realizes Stephanie moved in and is moving too fast for him.
  • Confronts and gets into a catfight with the Dead Hooker about using the guys.
  • After ripping Leonard apart for buying the time machine, toys, comics, etc., later apologizes as says ”Look, you are a great guy, and it is things you love that make you who you are.”
  • Breaks it off (second time) – because she wasn’t ready to say ILY back to Leonard and let WW get into her head / convince her that it was better and more merciful to end a relationship than string someone along. Tell Leonard “I’m sorry, it’s not fair to you”

This is Penny after WW....

  • Penny gets mad at Leonard for sleeping with Dr. Elizabeth Plimpton…even though she broke it off and supposedly has a habit of having rebound sex with random guys
  • Goes out with Zach, comes back drunk and uses Leonard for sex…yet slams the door on Leonard when he tries to use the friends with benefit card
  • Takes Shamy out on their 1st date and comes back a slut
  • During "Truth or Dare" admits her relationship with Leonard got too serious, too fast...Invites Leonard to enter the Neutral Zone, yet shoots him down in public for saying they tried to get back together.
  • Has a complete meltdown when Leonard and Priya start dating.
  • After confiding to Raj, that she made a mistake breaking up with Leonard, gets so drunk that she sleeps with Raj. (Imo, this was a jump the shark move.)
  • Despite get so drunk that she can’t remember what happened the night before, and waking up naked next to Raj…runs home and pours herself a drink
  • After finding out nothing happened with Raj, she agrees to keep it a secret for Raj “her ex-boyfriend friend who knew what was happening, yet took advantage of her anyway” / while Leonard suffers with the thought of his ex hooking up with his friend.
  • Tells Sheldon a story about regretting not telling a guy that she really liked, how she felt about him, yet won’t say a word to Leonard or admit that she loves Sheldon and not Leonard :icon_razz:
  • Get back together with Leonard, but more or less brags to Leonard that she has no fears about him every breaking up with her…brags to Amy that she has no fears about Leonard every hurting her
  • Lights Leonard up for proposing in the middle of sex...ok she gets a pass on that one.

Anyway, I'm no shrink and don't play one on tv, but Penny post WW is a whackadoodle :icon_mrgreen:

Sure.

There's some stuff here if you have time

and here

cheers

(edited to remove some rubbish)

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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I think the actual problem is that her & Leonard ever got together. Well, maybe not the "Penny" problem, but the problem with what they've done with the show since. TBBT has turned from a geek inspired sit-com to a typical rom-com. The premise should have stayed that Leonard couldn't have Penny. Now Howard has Bernadette, Sheldon has Amy and Raj has become a metro-sexual d'bag. The show was MUCH better when it was about for geeks who couldn't get girls... Now it's a been there, done that a hundred times rom-com for teeny-bopper & teeny-bopper minded girls. A throw-away audience to say the least.

 

By season six it would be pretty pathetic and unrealistic for these for guys to still be single and lonely.  Geekiness aside, they're smart, attractive, well-paid men.  Women (not teen-aged girls, but adult women) want to marry that type of guy, not Kurt or Zack.

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Sure.

There's some stuff here if you have time

and here

cheers

(edited to remove some rubbish)

 

Thanks, I haven’t seen those threads before. Looks juicy.

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I think the problem with Penny espicially in season 4 and the first part of season 5 was that she wasn't with Leonard. There was no way to keep them together straight thru from season 3 to the end of the show. As Kaizen mentioned above there were other things on the show then and Penny was certainly not shown in the best light. I still don't comprehend why people were so upset over the Raj/Penny sleeping together. To me that was Raj getting even with Leonard for sleeping with his sister. I kind of thought Leonard kind of got what he deserved. I think that was the beginning of the end for Priya and the start of Leonard getting back together with Penny. Season 6 has shown that Penny's insecurities and has evened the playing field for Leonard. Especially Alex hitting on Leonard knowing full well Penny was his girlfriend. They have made Penny a much more sympathetic person this year.

I didn’t care for the Raj & Penny hookup idea. Here's my 2 cents.

If Raj wanted to get back at Leonard – through Penny, Raj should have gone after Pennywhen she wasn’t drunk.

IIRC, Penny saidshe regretted breaking up with Leonard, and wouldn’t date Raj because they’re friends. The next day, Penny had alcohol induced memory loss, but Raj remembered what had happened. That means, Raj knew what he was doing and intending on having sex with intoxicated friend / Leonards ex-gf / girl – who just said she wouldn’t date him. That’s rape.

I think they could have gotten the same effects - without damaging the characters by doing the scene with Penny & some random guy ,or making the Penny & Raj scene some sort of bad dream thing.

Edited by Kaizen
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I didn't really notice that much of a difference in Penny in any season. Maybe concerning Leonard, she was a bit odd in Seasons 4 and 5, but I thought Zack's inclusion was great, and really enjoyed the episodes with him in.

 

With everyone else, she was normal, in my opinion, especially with Sheldon.

 

With regard to the Penny and Raj thing at the end of Season 4, Raj was clearly also drunk, but he just happened to remember what had happened. There must've been a reason that they didn't engage in coitus, however it wasn't really revealed. Maybe they were too tired, or maybe Raj felt guilty. I don't know.

Edited by viddy9

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There must've been a reason that they didn't engage in coitus, however it wasn't really revealed. Maybe they were too tired, or maybe Raj felt guilty. I don't know.
They explained it in the S5 premier. Penny was helping Raj put on a condom, and... well, there's a reason why she gave him the nickname "Quick Draw." ;) Sent from my Asus Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 2

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I think the actual problem is that her & Leonard ever got together. Well, maybe not the "Penny" problem, but the problem with what they've done with the show since. TBBT has turned from a geek inspired sit-com to a typical rom-com. The premise should have stayed that Leonard couldn't have Penny. Now Howard has Bernadette, Sheldon has Amy and Raj has become a metro-sexual d'bag. The show was MUCH better when it was about for geeks who couldn't get girls... Now it's a been there, done that a hundred times rom-com for teeny-bopper & teeny-bopper minded girls. A throw-away audience to say the least.

 

I doubt the show would have lasted without Lenny.  I have been re-watching season 2 recently and it is so geek and science oriented it probably needed a rom-com element to give it more mass appeal.  I don't think any of the other guys needed extended relationships though.

 

Now we have two show configurations.  One about 4 geeks doing geeky things like Bakersfield where the guys and girls barely interact or you have the relationship shows.  When it was just Penny you didn't have that problem.

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I doubt the show would have lasted without Lenny.  I have been re-watching season 2 recently and it is so geek and science oriented it probably needed a rom-com element to give it more mass appeal.  I don't think any of the other guys needed extended relationships though.

 

Now we have two show configurations.  One about 4 geeks doing geeky things like Bakersfield where the guys and girls barely interact or you have the relationship shows.  When it was just Penny you didn't have that problem.

 

I totally agree. And I certainly prefer the sciency, nerdy episodes. The ratings show that the dumbing down and the romance did work in giving it more mass appeal, which is good in some ways. However, as you said, they now have to have two show configurations, more or less.

 

I've noticed that a lot of people say that Season 4 is when all of the 'bad relationship stuff' started as well, but I thought that Season 4 was excellent. It had relationships, yes, but they managed to fit them in perfectly with the original premise of the show in my opinion. So although they have two show configurations now, if they went back to the season 4 style episodes, it wouldn't have to be that way.

 

They definitely needed Lenny, and the scenes with Penny and Leonard in Season 1 were great, imo. Just finished watching Season 4 and 5 DVDs again so I can't wait to start the cycle for the 12th time and watch Season 1 again.

 

Penny was definitely much more innocent in Season 1, which they could've extended for a bit longer, but she was bound to start standing up to Sheldon and criticising him eventually.

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They explained it in the S5 premier. Penny was helping Raj put on a condom, and... well, there's a reason why she gave him the nickname "Quick Draw." ;) Sent from my Asus Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 2

 

Oh, thanks. I barely watch Season 5 so I'm quite misinformed about it.

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I doubt the show would have lasted without Lenny.  I have been re-watching season 2 recently and it is so geek and science oriented it probably needed a rom-com element to give it more mass appeal.  I don't think any of the other guys needed extended relationships though.

 

Now we have two show configurations.  One about 4 geeks doing geeky things like Bakersfield where the guys and girls barely interact or you have the relationship shows.  When it was just Penny you didn't have that problem.

 

While I agree with what you've said, I think in the longer run, the show would have been looked back on in a better light had it remained true to it's original premise. Look at something like Star Trek. It was in danger of cancellation for most of it's run, and was cancelled after only three seasons. Look at it now. It has not only endured, it is an icon. Even had TBBT not have made it to this point, I believe it would have gone on to a status similar to Star Trek. Now, I believe in twenty years, TBBT will be looked back upon as just another sit-com. Yes, as one of the better ones, but I think it lost it's shot at immortal greatness. In appealing to everyone, it's lost it extreme appeal to a more loyal type of audience.

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I didn’t care for the Raj & Penny hookup idea. Here's my 2 cents.

If Raj wanted to get back at Leonard – through Penny, Raj should have gone after Pennywhen she wasn’t drunk.

IIRC, Penny saidshe regretted breaking up with Leonard, and wouldn’t date Raj because they’re friends. The next day, Penny had alcohol induced memory loss, but Raj remembered what had happened. That means, Raj knew what he was doing and intending on having sex with intoxicated friend / Leonards ex-gf / girl – who just said she wouldn’t date him. That’s rape.

I think they could have gotten the same effects - without damaging the characters by doing the scene with Penny & some random guy ,or making the Penny & Raj scene some sort of bad dream thing.

 

No it is not, Raj blew his load when Penny was putting the condom on him. She was hardly passed out if she was doing that. And he did not drug her nor make her drink,how was he to know that she would not remember anything the next day. In case of a rape allegation,if Raj gets a good lawyer, just based on these facts and Penny's sexual history the lawyer would wring her dry on the stand.

 

But she might get some money on a civil case considering that Raj is loaded and typically in such cases the affluent party settles regardless of the facts to prevent having to go through trial.

Edited by Kutra

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While I agree with what you've said, I think in the longer run, the show would have been looked back on in a better light had it remained true to it's original premise. Look at something like Star Trek. It was in danger of cancellation for most of it's run, and was cancelled after only three seasons. Look at it now. It has not only endured, it is an icon. Even had TBBT not have made it to this point, I believe it would have gone on to a status similar to Star Trek. Now, I believe in twenty years, TBBT will be looked back upon as just another sit-com. Yes, as one of the better ones, but I think it lost it's shot at immortal greatness. In appealing to everyone, it's lost it extreme appeal to a more loyal type of audience.

 

You appear to have forgotten the third season of TOS of Star Trek, dreck like "Spock's Brain" and "The Way to Eden" still stinks up the TV screen. This crap appeared in an attempt to ward off cancellation and it shows that our memories truly are edited.

 

TBBT will be thought of endearingly 20 years from now because the majority of its fans and the critics rave about it in its latter seasons, it did not have a big enough base in its first two seasons to get into the collective consciousness. There are far more fans who will respond to seasons 5 or 6 than will recall season 1. It is simply a numbers game, millions more saw first run episodes in season 6 then in season 1 and 2  combined. I dare say the majority of fans now only saw those early episodes in reruns and those serve as back story for the current season.

Edited by BangerMain
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I doubt the show would have lasted without Lenny.  I have been re-watching season 2 recently and it is so geek and science oriented it probably needed a rom-com element to give it more mass appeal.  I don't think any of the other guys needed extended relationships though.

 

Now we have two show configurations.  One about 4 geeks doing geeky things like Bakersfield where the guys and girls barely interact or you have the relationship shows.  When it was just Penny you didn't have that problem.

 

 

I agree that the writers started out making Lennard and Penny the main characters, Shamy has up staged them and are now keeping BBT at the top of the ratings. I personally prefer Lenny over Shamy, But I can't close my eyes to the fact Shamy threads get way more hits than Lenny thread on all the forums. Fact is Sheldon can drive me up a wall at times and I couldn't put up with him in real life.

 

 

.

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