Character Penny

[Ar Diem]

@Chiara

 

Even though the crying scene was some of the worst acting Kaley has done on the show she was in tears over her father's change of behaviour and attitude towards her.  Was it natural and she was reading too much into it?  Perhaps,  but the way the show depicted it she was dealing with what she felt was a defining experience in her life. 

 

I think the reason it might be hard to accept at face value is because it wasn't a well-written or acted scene and it was meant to be preposterous.  However when the writers wanted Penny to be in tears because of a supposed 30ish second session with a psychologist I think they went to the canon of her character.

 

The puzzle piece fits very nicely and as far as I can tell no other explanation has ever been offered.  They may decide to write something big and dramatic for Penny to overcome/realize before the proposal but based on their handling of Shamy I kind of think it is another time overcomes all obstacles scenarios and we will be left with her daddy issues starting her on this path.

[Chiara]

As you said she uses sex to fill a big void in her life where real accomplishments should be. The only thing she feels she can do is attract men with her beauty and try to hold them temporarily with sex. She is now sure that the guys will leave when they find that is all she has going for her. Leonard is the big exception. He has been there even when they are not having sex and heals and protects her.

Now the trick is for her relationship with Leonard not to become just that ; something that fills the space where her own personal accomplishments should be. 

While there is nothing wrong with being Mrs Hofstadter, I doubt Penny really wants to be just Dr Hofstadter's wife and the future little Drs Hofstadter's mother. Nor do I think it would be any healthier than any of her previous relationships if that was all she was in her couple with Leonard. She needs something of her own, aside from natural human qualities. Maybe this is what she meant when she said (or rather, what the writers winked at when they wrote) she feared she would be stuck with Leonard forever if she relented and accepted one of his many proposals in the near future. She would give in, marry him because she loves him / wants to make him happy and feel miserable herself because she would feel like she is not contributing to anything which would, in turn, make their marriage a very unhappy one indeed.

 

In short : give the woman a job she likes and is good at !

Edited March 11, 2013 by Chiara

[Ar Diem]

Yes, Penny was given this low self-esteem leading to commitment problem, to keep her from being married to Leonard by year three. The daddy-issue thing was thrown in by the writers to bookend Leonard's mommy issue. It's the reason Leonard gives for them ending up in bed together in the first Dr. Beverly episode and when he voiced it to Penny she tossed him out of bed pronto. It was truly a cringe worthy moment.

 

The inviting Kurt to the Halloween party is a good example of her very low self esteem. But a more pointed example is giving her rent money to Kurt to bail him out of jail a year after they broke up. Sheldon had to lend her the money to pay her rent and Leonard went over and got her money back from Kurt and had the bully scrawl an IOU on his forehead for good measure. Penny did not know of Leonard's knight in shining armor quest and she ended up going on a date with Kurt thinking he had changed. I wonder if Penny ever found out how she got her money back. Penny had this pattern again with Mike, who posted about their sexual adventure in public places on his blog. She thought he needed a chance to explain himself after misinterpreting some advice from Leonard and went back to Mike's place only to find him having sex with another girl hours after he had left Penny.

 

As you said she uses sex to fill a big void in her life where real accomplishments should be. The only thing she feels she can do is attract men with her beauty and try to hold them temporarily with sex. She is now sure that the guys will leave when they find that is all she has going for her. Leonard is the big exception. He has been there even when they are not having sex and heals and protects her.

 

 

I just watched the first Halloween again so that is why I referenced it.  Unless you get bogged down on the few continuity errors the overall suggestion is she has had a real problem.  I have encountered so many Pennys in my life. 

[BangerMain]

I do wonder how much of a bible they have for TBBT. It seems that they are fairly willing to do things just to be funny, that are at the same time, out of character. I think about Penny's view of Leonard in the sack. After the first time together in S3, he seemed to figure out what was needed, and throughout Penny was always pretty happy with the sex. Then she has that line earlier in S6 about Leonard "really tries" in the bedroom. I thought that was a big jarring, and felt that it wasn't even that funny. The flow of the scene was about how great Leonard was, and then there's this little dig suggesting he tries but fails in the bedroom. I can see where a lot of people unfamiliar with the show as long term fans are would find this funny but it is not consistent with prior information. 

 

If they think its a decent gag at any moment their attitude is character consistency be damn. In the 3rd season, Penny on at least two occasions established Leonard really rang her bell in bed. But they forgot all about that in one 4th season eps when he became the "King of Foreplay":

 

Penny: You want to talk about crazy mothers, Leonard’s mom wouldn’t give him any sort of approval growing up.

Priya: Oh, the poor thing.

Penny: It makes him desperate to please women. That’s why the foreplay goes on and on.

Priya: It does, doesn’t it?

Penny: It’s like he’s trying to win a prize. A word of advice, don’t doze off. You will never hear the end of it.

[Ar Diem]

Now the trick is for her relationship with Leonard not to become just that ; something that fills the space where her own personal accomplishments should be. 

While there is nothing wrong with being Mrs Hofstadter, I doubt Penny really wants to be just Dr Hofstadter's wife and the future little Dr Hofstadter's mother. Nor do I think it would be any healthier than any of her previous relationships if that was all she was in her couple with Leonard. She needs something of her own, aside from natural human qualities. Maybe this is what she meant when she said (or rather, what the writers winked at when they wrote) she feared she would be stuck with Leonard forever if she relented and accepted one of his many proposals in the near future. She would give in, marry him because she loves him / wants to make him happy and feel miserable herself because she would feel like she is not contributing to anything which would, in turn, make their marriage a very unhappy one indeed.

 

In short : give the woman a job she likes and is good at !

 

 

We really don't know what Penny will be happy with going forward but to say it would be unhealthy for her to be a homemaker and a mother is off the mark.  What if Penny is what Leonard needs to make the next big breakthrough?  What if Penny at home is what their kids need to achieve greatness?  As long as you have a role for the improvement of society it will never be unimportant.  It could be that homemaking and having kids fulfill her life like nothing before.

 

To avoid being called a sexist you could reverse their roles and I would be fine with that.  Penny's acting could inspire millions while Leonard kept the home and was a stay-at-home father to the children.

[Chiara]

We really don't know what Penny will be happy with going forward but to say it would be unhealthy for her to be a homemaker and a mother is off the mark.  What if Penny is what Leonard needs to make the next big breakthrough?  What if Penny at home is what their kids need to achieve greatness?  As long as you have a role for the improvement of society it will never be unimportant.  It could be that homemaking and having kids fulfill her life like nothing before.

 

To avoid being called a sexist you could reverse their roles and I would be fine with that.  Penny's acting could inspire millions while Leonard kept the home and was a stay-at-home father to the children.

It was not my intention to even suggest that being a stay-at-home parent was not a fulfilling, rewarding experience or a useful role to play in society. Perhaps I phrased it too bluntly. What I wrote was only a comment on Penny's tendency to replace individual achievements with relationships.

To me, being a homemaker and/or raising  children is a personal accomplishment whereas being a lover/spouse/parent is "merely" a connection to somebody else (the result of one having sex, getting married or procreating). The latter is good but can become frustrating for one's worth and status are entirely dependent on a link to somebody else; the former is a full-blown career in which personal talents are put to good use all the time. 

 

My point was simply that she needs something to call her own and in which she can take pride independently. Whatever that might be. My immediate thought was towards her career because marriage and children are not in the cards for her in the near future, unless the writers decide to make a dash for it which is always a possibility, I guess. A job she loves, makes her feel socially relevant and appreciated for what she, nobody else, brings to the table is a more likely scenario for the moment. 

Edited March 11, 2013 by Chiara

[vasu]

Did Penny really have self-esteem issues regarding her relationship when they were in the beta-test phase??

 

I think a lot of scenes prove otherwise....

 

And when Penny was thinking of breaking-up with Leonard again...not once in that episode it looked like she was doing because she was scared or she was feeling unworthy of Leonard....it always looked like she thought she could do better but she was struck with Leonard 

 

I don't think we can say that this was her defense mechanism because in the hologram episode she says "she forgets how smart he was"...... so she clearly was felt she could do more than Leonard not the other way around........ 

 

I agree that her self-esteem issues are quite fluctuating....her self-esteem issues regarding her relationship with Leonard were shown in

- in season 2 premier..

- then probably in the teach physics episode

- then during priya era

- and after the ILY , ...And after Alex starts hitting on Leonard ..,she has started to realize that Leonard could also do better which is kind of irritating because she saw him with Priya

Edited March 11, 2013 by vasu

[BangerMain]

Did Penny really have self-esteem issues regarding her relationship when they were in the beta-test phase??

 

I think a lot of scenes prove otherwise....

 

And when Penny was thinking of breaking-up with Leonard again...not once in that episode it looked like she was doing because she was scared or she was feeling unworthy of Leonard....it always looked like she thought she could do better but she was struck with Leonard 

 

I don't think we can say that this was her defense mechanism because in the hologram episode she says "she forgets how smart he was"...... so she clearly was felt she could do more than Leonard not the other way around........ 

 

I agree that her self-esteem issues are quite fluctuating....her self-esteem issues regarding her relationship with Leonard were shown in

- in season 2 premier..

- then probably in the teach physics episode

- then during priya era

- and after the ILY , ...And after Alex starts hitting on Leonard ..,she has started to realize that Leonard could also do better which is kind of irritating because she saw him with Priya

 

The writers queue up Penny break-up possibilities when ever she thinks she may have to commit to Leonard. Much was made in the season 6 premiere about Leonard wanting Penny to solidify their relationship, especially from Raj. The writers had her begin her normal flight response in episode 2 but they signaled the changes in Penny by having her halt. The same thing happened when Leonard made his bedroom proposal.

 

The one thing she seemed confident about is that Leonard will always be there for her and the Beta Test  proved that to her. They went 4 months without sex and Leonard was still adoring her. She is miserable without him but once she has him in orbit around her, she has to do little to keep him there. I think she can feel unworthy of Leonard but sure that she has him by her side. That is what their history has shown her.

 

That was until Alex came on the scene this season. Penny, for the very first time faced a challenge to her absolute hold on Leonard while they were a couple. She had to deal with her insecurity directly to Leonard, a massive change for her since she had to state why Alex makes her feel so inadequate, the same feeling she got from Priya, who she said made her feel like a "Toothless Oakie".

Edited March 11, 2013 by BangerMain

[hamerman55]

If they think its a decent gag at any moment their attitude is character consistency be damn. In the 3rd season, Penny on at least two occasions established Leonard really rang her bell in bed. But they forgot all about that in one 4th season eps when he became the "King of Foreplay":

 

Penny: You want to talk about crazy mothers, Leonard’s mom wouldn’t give him any sort of approval growing up.

Priya: Oh, the poor thing.

Penny: It makes him desperate to please women. That’s why the foreplay goes on and on.

Priya: It does, doesn’t it?

Penny: It’s like he’s trying to win a prize. A word of advice, don’t doze off. You will never hear the end of it.

I'm reminded of an old comedy riff by either Eddie Murphy or Richard Pryor, where they were talking about success in the bed. If you finish having sex and the woman wants to talk about relationships, you are not done. If you've done a good job, she will roll over and go to sleep. While I doubt they were thinking of this, but it could be another way of looking at it. Leonard is so desperate to please women, he can't tell when he's actually accomplished his purpose.

[vasu]

The writers queue up Penny break-up possibilities when ever she thinks she may have to commit to Leonard. Much was made in the season 6 premiere about Leonard wanting Penny to solidify their relationship, especially from Raj. The writers had her begin her normal flight response in episode 2 but they signaled the changes in Penny by having her halt. The same thing happened when Leonard made his bedroom proposal.

 

The one thing she seemed confident about is that Leonard will always be there for her and the Beta Test  proved that to her. They went 4 months without sex and Leonard was still adoring her. She is miserable without him but once she has him in orbit around her, she has to do little to keep him there. I think she can feel unworthy of Leonard but sure that she has him by her side. That is what their history has shown her.

 

That was until Alex came on the scene this season. Penny, for the very first time faced a challenge to her absolute hold on Leonard while they were a couple. She had to deal with her insecurity directly to Leonard, a massive change for her since she had to state why Alex makes her feel so inadequate, the same feeling she got from Priya, who she said made her feel like a "Toothless Oakie".

 

I don't agree on the bolded part.

 

One dialogue  "I forgot how smart you are" just completely negates any possibility of her thinking that she is unworthy of Leonard ....because that smartness was what should have made her feel unworthy....so if she forgot about that then there is nothing she would feel unworthy of.............and her actions prior to that during the beta-test support that statement...

 

And clearly in the episode where she thinks about breaking-up with Leonard again...the tone suggested that Penny clearly thought she could do better...

 

One thing I really disliked in that episode was the sarcasm dripping from her tone when she was describing Leonard as a sweetie when Amy and Bernedette was asking her about marrying Leonard ....

[Nogravitasatall]

@all of the above.

 

I come here and I learn stuff.

 

Can Penny as a character get a pass on her sexual history.or will it always grate for some? Hers is in the real spectrum of behaviour and, if I read AD as intended, the context implies that nothing sinister happened with Luthor  (though it stands out for me as a bad thing, unlike the other things that might have just been about fun or poor judgement)

 

Is it just too much for this time-slot or is it genuinely gratuitous?

 

[hamerman55]

Did Penny really have self-esteem issues regarding her relationship when they were in the beta-test phase??

 

I think a lot of scenes prove otherwise....

 

And when Penny was thinking of breaking-up with Leonard again...not once in that episode it looked like she was doing because she was scared or she was feeling unworthy of Leonard....it always looked like she thought she could do better but she was struck with Leonard 

 

I don't think we can say that this was her defense mechanism because in the hologram episode she says "she forgets how smart he was"...... so she clearly was felt she could do more than Leonard not the other way around........ 

 

I agree that her self-esteem issues are quite fluctuating....her self-esteem issues regarding her relationship with Leonard were shown in

- in season 2 premier..

- then probably in the teach physics episode

- then during priya era

- and after the ILY , ...And after Alex starts hitting on Leonard ..,she has started to realize that Leonard could also do better which is kind of irritating because she saw him with Priya

Alex also represents a couple of new threats to Penny. First, she's quite a bit younger than Penny. Alex is probably 21-22, while Penny is pushing 27-28. Not a big difference, but still significant to someone who's self-esteem is tied up in their sexual desirability  Second, Alex is a student, as opposed to the established professional Priya. She is likely to be more malleable due to her relative youth, and is in a service position (working for Sheldon). Alex is actively chasing Leonard, unlike Priya. One of the big pluses that Penny has over Leonard's other relationships is that she doesn't overtly try to change him. Alex is not only happy with Leonard as he is (for now) but is also more likely to change for Leonard (consider what she puts up being Sheldon's assistant). As a child of scientists and pursuing an advanced degree, she clearly has great respect for someone in Leonard's position, and probably finds it a turn on.

Penny is starting to get that she needs to work harder at the relationship this season. Also, Leonard's increased confidence since The 43 Complexity and the Valentine episode shows in that he initiates sex. Before, it was always Penny. 

[vasu]

Alex also represents a couple of new threats to Penny. First, she's quite a bit younger than Penny. Alex is probably 21-22, while Penny is pushing 27-28. Not a big difference, but still significant to someone who's self-esteem is tied up in their sexual desirability  Second, Alex is a student, as opposed to the established professional Priya. She is likely to be more malleable due to her relative youth, and is in a service position (working for Sheldon). Alex is actively chasing Leonard, unlike Priya. One of the big pluses that Penny has over Leonard's other relationships is that she doesn't overtly try to change him. Alex is not only happy with Leonard as he is (for now) but is also more likely to change for Leonard (consider what she puts up being Sheldon's assistant). As a child of scientists and pursuing an advanced degree, she clearly has great respect for someone in Leonard's position, and probably finds it a turn on.

Penny is starting to get that she needs to work harder at the relationship this season. Also, Leonard's increased confidence since The 43 Complexity and the Valentine episode shows in that he initiates sex. Before, it was always Penny. 

 

Oh I agree that Penny is starting to get that she needs to work harder at the relationship this season and that Leonard is gaining confidence.....

 

My argument was against the case that Penny's low self-esteem was the reason she was reluctant to commit to Leonard and so was trying to break-up with him again... 

 

because If that was the case ....while thinking about breaking-up with him ...she would have compared herself with Leonard's previous girlfriends....but what we saw was ..she was comparing Leonard to her previous boyfriend's which tells that she thought the problem was with Leonard not her...

[BangerMain]

I don't agree on the bolded part.

 

One dialogue  "I forgot how smart you are" just completely negates any possibility of her thinking that she is unworthy of Leonard ....because that smartness was what should have made her feel unworthy....so if she forgot about that then there is nothing she would feel unworthy of.............and her actions prior to that during the beta-test support that statement...

 

And clearly in the episode where she thinks about breaking-up with Leonard again...the tone suggested that Penny clearly thought she could do better...

 

One thing I really disliked in that episode was the sarcasm dripping from her tone when she was describing Leonard as a sweetie when Amy and Bernedette was asking her about marrying Leonard ....

Of course that begs the question: Why do the writers put so many instances of Penny showing or saying she is insecure about her value to Leonard?

 

Where do we start? Ep. 2.01:

 

Penny:

Okay, okay, you know, I get it, Leonard has no business being involved

with a waitress slash actress who felt so insecure that she lied to him

about finishing community college.

Sheldon: Why would you lie about that?

Penny:

Well, he was going on and on about this college and that grad school

and I didn’t want him to think I was some stupid loser.

Sheldon: You thought the opposite of stupid loser was community college graduate?

Penny: You know, there are a lot of successful people in this country who are community college graduates.

Sheldon: Yeah, but you were neither.

 

Ep  3.23

 

Penny: Damn you, you rat bastard.

Leonard: Are you drunk?

 

Penny: Zack was a perfectly nice guy, and then you ruined him!

Leonard: How did I ruin him?

Penny: ‘Cause in the olden days, I never would’ve known he was so stupid.

 

 

Ep. 4.23

 

Penny: Hey, do me a favour and take table seven.

Bernadette: You mean the one with my one hundred and eighteen-pound

rock-hard stud of a fiancé who’s prone to canker sores and pinkeye?

Penny: Nah, I prefer to look at it as the one with my ex-boyfriend

and his gorgeous, successful and sophisticated girlfriend, who makes me

feel like a toothless Okie.

 

Ep 6.06

 

Leonard: Please don’t be upset. I just, I didn’t want you ending up

with a bad grade and get discouraged and give up on the idea of going

back to school.

Penny: Right, because me being in school is so important to you. That

way, you wouldn’t have to be dating someone who’s only a waitress.

 

Ep 6.12

 

Penny: I don’t care about Alex. Fine, I care. Okay, I hate that

bitch. But what really hurt is that you liked it so much. I mean, do I

need to be worried?

Leonard: Of course not. No. Why?

Penny: Because, she is pretty and smart, and when you talk about

work, she doesn’t have to go home and look up words in the dictionary to

understand what you said.

 

Those are the ones where she states her feelings of inadequacy that I remember. Season 4 is one big pathetic dirge of Penny self pity.

 

Penny is confident in her ability to hold Leonard. Leonard has been shown that he can get women with far more accomplishments then Penny. Where have the writers shown that Penny can get someone better than Leonard? They seem intent on showing that she should only feel that she can attract worst.

[vasu]

I added a few things in between which would probably say what Penny was thinking and suit her behaviour during the beta-test

Of course that begs the question: Why do the writers put so many instances of Penny showing or saying she is insecure about her value to Leonard?

 

Where do we start? Ep. 2.01:

 

Penny:
Okay, okay, you know, I get it, Leonard has no business being involved
with a waitress slash actress who felt so insecure that she lied to him
about finishing community college.

Sheldon: Why would you lie about that?

Penny:
Well, he was going on and on about this college and that grad school
and I didn’t want him to think I was some stupid loser.

Sheldon: You thought the opposite of stupid loser was community college graduate?

Penny: You know, there are a lot of successful people in this country who are community college graduates.

Sheldon: Yeah, but you were neither.

 

Ep  3.23

 

Penny: Damn you, you rat bastard.

Leonard: Are you drunk?
 

Penny: Zack was a perfectly nice guy, and then you ruined him!

Leonard: How did I ruin him?

Penny: ‘Cause in the olden days, I never would’ve known he was so stupid.

 

 

Ep. 4.23

 

Penny: Hey, do me a favour and take table seven.

Bernadette: You mean the one with my one hundred and eighteen-pound
rock-hard stud of a fiancé who’s prone to canker sores and pinkeye?

Penny: Nah, I prefer to look at it as the one with my ex-boyfriend
and his gorgeous, successful and sophisticated girlfriend, who makes me
feel like a toothless Okie

 

Ep 100 :

 

They get back together.

 

Leonard is taking to her to gun-dates , doing things that are keeping her happy....so she is starting to forgot about her insecurities (and the fact that Leonard is super smart)

 

She completely brushes of Amy's question when she asks if she worries whether Leonard would ever hurt her.....she laughs and says something along the lines that it is not even possible....so at this point of time she completely forgets about her insecurities...

 

Leonard proposes in bed...but still she does not break-up with him... 

 

Raj puts pressure on her to tell her ILY

 

Amy and Bernedette ask about marrying Leonard.....but at this time ...she feels superior to Leonard and compares him with her previous boyfriends which she thought were more exciting that Leonard and tries to break-up but could not because of the puppy dog eyes (not love but pity--- so still Penny comes across as superior)

 

Then when Alex takes an interest in him ...she drags him off to the bed....

 

Later when Bernedette pesters her about putting more effort in their relationship,,after Penny says that Leonard's job is to make her happy and her job is to let him make her happy(again Penny feeling  superior)...she finally goes to see Leonard at work...he shows her the hologram thing...and she now remembers again that Leonard is super smart and her insecurities start to creep in...

 

Ep 6.06

 

Leonard: Please don’t be upset. I just, I didn’t want you ending up
with a bad grade and get discouraged and give up on the idea of going
back to school.

Penny: Right, because me being in school is so important to you. That
way, you wouldn’t have to be dating someone who’s only a waitress.

 

Ep 6.12

 

Penny: I don’t care about Alex. Fine, I care. Okay, I hate that
bitch. But what really hurt is that you liked it so much. I mean, do I
need to be worried?

Leonard: Of course not. No. Why?

Penny: Because, she is pretty and smart, and when you talk about
work, she doesn’t have to go home and look up words in the dictionary to
understand what you said.

Edited March 11, 2013 by vasu

[hamerman55]

Oh I agree that Penny is starting to get that she needs to work harder at the relationship this season and that Leonard is gaining confidence.....

 

My argument was against the case that Penny's low self-esteem was the reason she was reluctant to commit to Leonard and so was trying to break-up with him again... 

 

because If that was the case ....while thinking about breaking-up with him ...she would have compared herself with Leonard's previous girlfriends....but what we saw was ..she was comparing Leonard to her previous boyfriend's which tells that she thought the problem was with Leonard not her...

I agree with you. I believe Alex forced her to consider that Leonard has real options, and it is worrying her quite a lot. In several episodes she has specifically called out Alex as a threat. It could be that she really doesn't understand why Leonard loves her. She thinks it is just because she is pretty. We've never actually had Leonard go through his list of why he loves Penny, like she did when Alex appeared. I also note that Penny has never chased Leonard. She is miserable without him, but she's never worked to keep him. There is an interesting mirror symmetry in the first episode of S6 where Leonard fixes up up snacks and serves Penny for a "Penny" night, to set up a relationship discussion (that goes nowhere). In the first appearance of Alex, Penny has fixed up food and serves Leonard. She also smiling at him, and hanging on every word. Leonard is actually a little confused by this.

[Tensor]

Oh I agree that Penny is starting to get that she needs to work harder at the relationship this season and that Leonard is gaining confidence.....

 

My argument was against the case that Penny's low self-esteem was the reason she was reluctant to commit to Leonard and so was trying to break-up with him again... 

 

because If that was the case ....while thinking about breaking-up with him ...she would have compared herself with Leonard's previous girlfriends....but what we saw was ..she was comparing Leonard to her previous boyfriend's which tells that she thought the problem was with Leonard not her...

 

 

     That's not necessarily the case.  In most instances of low-self esteem,  it's that the person with low-self esteem doesn't think they are worthy of the person they desire, even if the other person does desire them.   For Penny, it's not that she thinks that his other girlfriends are a better option for him (although they may be, or not, they all had their own issues),  it's a case of her simply not thinking she's worthy of Leonard.  So, when it appears to her that she's going to get what she wants(Leonard), but doesn't feel she deserves him, she has to do something to destroy the possibility(breakup with him, ruin the evening, can't say I love you back to Leonard, etc).  

     The whole problem with it is that they have made it quite inconsistent and the information given is usually ambiguous enough that there can be different interpretations as to the reasons for the actions.  The first time they broke up, she simply wasn't ready to say ILY.   Although you would think that they should be able to say ILY after seven-eight months (if you use the season 3 television timeline) it was Leonard's first time to say it, and Penny may not have been ready, even without issues to verbalize it.  Wil Wheaton then took advantage of that to put the thought in her head that it was kinder to break up with Leonard than to string him along if she wasn't sure.  She thought she was actually doing Leonard a favor(something I would argue was an act of love), so I don't think that the break-up qualifies as a self-esteem issue. 

     The second time they almost broke up, was it because the previous time she wasn't sure (as she wasn't sure about her feelings again)  and broke it off and came to regret it later?   So, this time,  she couldn't bring herself to break it off and possibly make the same mistake.  She hung in there, trying to work it out in her mind,  worked it out, and became able  to verbalize her love.   Again, no self-esteem issues.  

      It can be a lot of fun trying to analyze this, the problem being there simply isn't enough information to do a good job of analyzing it.   So far this year, there have been 18 episodes aired.  That's 540 minutes and I'd be vastly surprised of there were more than 75 minutes of Penny/Leonard interaction plus the three women talking about the Penny/Leonard situation.   Trying to determine motivations, issues, problems, not to mention their thinking over the 75 minutes representing six months of their lives isn't really possible.  I mean we can all give our inputs and examples to support those inputs, but the ambiguity of some of the examples kinda, sorta, makes it difficult to actually pin any of this down. 

[BangerMain]

I added a few things in between which would probably say what Penny was thinking and suit her behaviour during the beta-test

 

Ep 100 :

 

They get back together.

 

Leonard is taking to her to gun-dates , doing things that are keeping her happy....so she is starting to forgot about her insecurities (and the fact that Leonard is super smart)

 

She completely brushes of Amy's question when she asks if she worries whether Leonard would ever hurt her.....she laughs and says something along the lines that it is not even possible....so at this point of time she completely forgets about her insecurities...

 

Leonard proposes in bed...but still she does not break-up with him... 

 

Raj puts pressure on her to tell her ILY

 

Amy and Bernedette ask about marrying Leonard.....but at this time ...she feels superior to Leonard and compares him with her previous boyfriends which she thought were more exciting that Leonard and tries to break-up but could not because of the puppy dog eyes (not love but pity--- so still Penny comes across as superior)

 

Then when Alex takes an interest in him ...she drags him off to the bed....

 

Later when Bernedette pesters her about putting more effort in their relationship,,after Penny says that Leonard's job is to make her happy and her job is to let him make her happy(again Penny feeling  superior)...she finally goes to see Leonard at work...he shows her the hologram thing...and she now remembers again that Leonard is super smart and her insecurities start to creep in...

 

We are both in a agreement here. This is my statement from my previous post: Penny is confident in her ability to hold Leonard.

 

There is no doubting this. The writers have explained this in episode 5.23 where Penny and Leonard restart their relationship:

 

Sheldon: All right, then. The reason you’re fixated on a good-natured

simpleton like Penny is that she’s the exact opposite of your first

romantic attachment, your brilliant yet intimidating mother.

Leonard: Where on earth did you get that from?

Sheldon: It’s in her book, Needy Baby, Greedy Baby.

 

Leonard: That doesn’t make it true.

Sheldon: It’s called non-fiction for a reason, Leonard.

 

Leonard has never explained to Penny why he loves her so devoutly but she seems to except that it just is what it is. That is the only thing that gives Penny a sense of superiority, until Alex came along, she did not have to work at being the center of Leonard's universe.

Edited March 11, 2013 by BangerMain

[Chiara]

We are both in a agreement here. This is my statement from my previous post: Penny is confident in her ability to hold Leonard.

 

There is no doubting this. The writers have explained this in episode 5.23 where Penny and Leonard restart their relationship:

 

Sheldon: All right, then. The reason you’re fixated on a good-natured simpleton like Penny is that she’s the exact opposite of your first romantic attachment, your brilliant yet intimidating mother.

[...]

Sheldon: It’s called non-fiction for a reason, Leonard.

 

Leonard has never explained to Penny why he loves her so devoutly but she seems to except that it just is what it is. That is the only thing that gives Penny a sense of superiority, until Alex came along she did not have to work at being the center of Leonard's universe.

To be entirely fair, Penny has never explained why she is so in love with Leonard either.

We can think it so logical it does not need to be justified or we can be completely baffled by it, depending on which of Leonard's characteristics we focus on. He is extremely intelligent, generous, kind, funny, loyal and not without charm and charisma so it makes absolute sense for Penny to be in love with him; he is also physically feeble, emotionally dependent, ridden with mommy issues, whiney and passive-aggressive so why the hell on earth is she with this guy again ? 

 

The very same goes with Leonard's devotion to Penny : if we focus on her less-than-stellar accomplishments both in the academic and romantic departments, there is very little for Leonard to be attracted to. Conversely, if we describe her as beautiful, smart, tough, protective, sweet and funny, then the mystery is solved. 

 

The scene you quote is a bit of a conundrum to me for it takes place in Leonard's mind. He puts those words in Sheldon's mouth, thereby making him quite literally his mother's/super-ego's voice. Does the book (Dr Beverly's) even exist or did Leonard make it up ? Is it what she and Sheldon really think or is it what Leonard expects them to ? And, even if the book is real, it being non-fiction does not mean its content is correct. Dr Beverly has a certain talent for not necessarily getting these things right. Let us not forget she did not spot her child's need for affection and the trauma her denying him such displays of love caused. She is a hit and miss sort of observer. 

Is Leonard's attraction to Penny partly due to his poor relationship with his mother ? It could be, absolutely.

Is Penny a "simpleton" ? One would have to stretch the definition pretty far for it to fit her, in my opinion. 

Is Penny "good-natured" even ? Let us face it, it depends on the day of the week. She can be pretty awful when she feels like it, and just as damaging as Mommy Dearest Hofstadter herself. 

 

I don't think we can say that this was her defense mechanism because in the hologram episode she says "she forgets how smart he was"...... so she clearly was felt she could do more than Leonard not the other way around........

That scene in the lab is quite pivotal in my opinion.

 

Up until that point, Leonard's intelligence and his understanding of science had been, alternatively, one of either two things to Penny : daunting for she at times felt intimidated by it and inferior to it; and dull for she did not get the meaning of it and zoned out whenever somebody tried to explain it to her. His world was completely foreign to her : it made her feel either inadequate or sleepy.

 

In the lab, for the first time, Leonard spoke about science, thereby putting his immense intelligence on display, in a perfectly accessible way. She understood it all and loved it. His speech was not ridden with the kind of weird equations and funky symbols that would make a layman run for the hills in panic; it was beautifully simple and oddly poetic without sounding patronizing. Which resulted in her falling for him all over again, even harder than before.

I think this is why, when she said "sometimes I forget how smart you are", it truly meant "sometimes I forget how great it is that you are smart". Not terrifying, not dull but genuinely fascinating. 

 

Ever since, she has been trying to grasp more of it. Sometimes it fails (she could not bring herself to take that science course because it was "so boring" and, on occasion, she still falls asleep during conferences), sometimes it works (she does go back home after talking to him to look up words in the dictionary because she wants to get the substance of what he does and says). One way or another, she is no longer on the outside looking in with a look of utter boredom and/or panic on her face. She is inside his world, both amazed and baffled by it. 

She will never be Marie Curie, mind you. But that is not the point. The point is that he now makes the effort of speaking her language and she repays the favour by getting involved in what he does in her own way.

 

It transpires in all aspects of their relationship now : the way they interact with each other betrays a level of intimacy, of understanding they did not have the first time around. They are finally on the same page.

 

Penny is confident in her ability to hold Leonard. Leonard has been shown that he can get women with far more accomplishments then Penny. Where have the writers shown that Penny can get someone better than Leonard? They seem intent on showing that she should only feel that she can attract worst.

I fear it may be redundant with my first point (if so, I apologise in advance). 

 

It depends again on what one means by "better". Can Leonard attract far more professionally accomplished women than Penny ? Hell to the yes. But Penny can attract far more conventionally attractive men than Leonard... Now, I do not wish to enter the "looks over smart and vice versa" debate, if such a thing even exists, but they are two criteria to evaluate "better" (physical/intellectual).

As a matter of fact, there are at least four criteria : physical, intellectual, emotional and sexual.

Leonard is infinitely better than Penny's past boyfriends in the intellectual and emotional departments, even though Zack seemed like a very lovely guy indeed, in spite of his limited intellect. However, physically and sexually... The sexual is up for debate (naughty writers sacrificing continuity for the sake of cheap laughs) but the physical is pretty clear cut : Leonard is not victorious.

Leonard's past girlfriends blow Penny out of the water intellectually (or at least academically). Physically and sexually, they are head-to-head I would assume. Emotionally, Pryia was a joke, even compared to Penny who does not always perform well in this area. 

 

Now I do get what you mean. The writers have made a point of telling us that Leonard can "do better". They have pretty much hit us over the head with it constantly to the point of it being hardly believable. But, on occasion, they forget themselves : the guy in the pub/bar, on Penny and Leonard's non-date, for instance. Granted, we only got to see him for a couple of minutes but he seemed smart, handsome, funny and interested in Penny. Quite a catch.

So who's better than whom ? Who can do better than what ? It appears to depend heavily on whatever point the writers wish to make this particular week. 

Edited March 14, 2013 by Chiara

[vasu]

     That's not necessarily the case.  In most instances of low-self esteem,  it's that the person with low-self esteem doesn't think they are worthy of the person they desire, even if the other person does desire them.   For Penny, it's not that she thinks that his other girlfriends are a better option for him (although they may be, or not, they all had their own issues),  it's a case of her simply not thinking she's worthy of Leonard.  So, when it appears to her that she's going to get what she wants(Leonard), but doesn't feel she deserves him, she has to do something to destroy the possibility(breakup with him, ruin the evening, can't say I love you back to Leonard, etc).  

 

But Penny clearly said that she was in love before , but this may be new better and boring kind of love...so she clearly was implying that her previous boyfriends were more exciting than Leonard. And as I have posted before  , the only reason she would be insecure about her relationship with Leonard was supposed to be his smartness which she according to herself she sometimes forgot ...so no insecurity or no self-esteem issues while trying to break-up with Leonard the second time....

 

     The whole problem with it is that they have made it quite inconsistent and the information given is usually ambiguous enough that there can be different interpretations as to the reasons for the actions.  The first time they broke up, she simply wasn't ready to say ILY.   Although you would think that they should be able to say ILY after seven-eight months (if you use the season 3 television timeline) it was Leonard's first time to say it, and Penny may not have been ready, even without issues to verbalize it.  Wil Wheaton then took advantage of that to put the thought in her head that it was kinder to break up with Leonard than to string him along if she wasn't sure.  She thought she was actually doing Leonard a favor(something I would argue was an act of love), so I don't think that the break-up qualifies as a self-esteem issue. 

 

We,  I think had this discussion once , and I agree that the first Penny's character was faultless...she was only trying to reduce the pain that Leonard might have suffered if she had not broken-up with and lead him along....

 

And well , in that season finale , she does the same thing but shows no sympathy towards Leonard.... I guess that is another story...

 

     The second time they almost broke up, was it because the previous time she wasn't sure (as she wasn't sure about her feelings again)  and broke it off and came to regret it later?   So, this time,  she couldn't bring herself to break it off and possibly make the same mistake.  She hung in there, trying to work it out in her mind,  worked it out, and became able  to verbalize her love.   Again, no self-esteem issues.  

 

No self-esteem issues is what I have been trying to say since the start of this discussion

 

Why she did not break up with him.....trying to work it out....or ....out of pity....both are applicable....but if we just base it on that episode alone....then it is because of pity

 

      It can be a lot of fun trying to analyze this, the problem being there simply isn't enough information to do a good job of analyzing it.   So far this year, there have been 18 episodes aired.  That's 540 minutes and I'd be vastly surprised of there were more than 75 minutes of Penny/Leonard interaction plus the three women talking about the Penny/Leonard situation.   Trying to determine motivations, issues, problems, not to mention their thinking over the 75 minutes representing six months of their lives isn't really possible.  I mean we can all give our inputs and examples to support those inputs, but the ambiguity of some of the examples kinda, sorta, makes it difficult to actually pin any of this down. 

 

yeah it's lot of fun

 

 

And I guess the major problem with that arc of Penny thinking of breaking-up with Leonard again was .....when Leonard was with Priya...she acted as she recognized that Leonard is a great guy ...so I think it is safe to assume that one would think that when they got back together she would never even think of letting him go again no matter what......but here she almost goes through with it  again....which made her character a little bit unlikable....

 

The writers probably wanted to push Penny a little bit back-wards before showing growth in her....but they probably went a bit too far...IMO

Edited March 11, 2013 by vasu

[Ar Diem]

     That's not necessarily the case.  In most instances of low-self esteem,  it's that the person with low-self esteem doesn't think they are worthy of the person they desire, even if the other person does desire them.   For Penny, it's not that she thinks that his other girlfriends are a better option for him (although they may be, or not, they all had their own issues),  it's a case of her simply not thinking she's worthy of Leonard.  So, when it appears to her that she's going to get what she wants(Leonard), but doesn't feel she deserves him, she has to do something to destroy the possibility(breakup with him, ruin the evening, can't say I love you back to Leonard, etc).  

     The whole problem with it is that they have made it quite inconsistent and the information given is usually ambiguous enough that there can be different interpretations as to the reasons for the actions.  The first time they broke up, she simply wasn't ready to say ILY.   Although you would think that they should be able to say ILY after seven-eight months (if you use the season 3 television timeline) it was Leonard's first time to say it, and Penny may not have been ready, even without issues to verbalize it.  Wil Wheaton then took advantage of that to put the thought in her head that it was kinder to break up with Leonard than to string him along if she wasn't sure.  She thought she was actually doing Leonard a favor(something I would argue was an act of love), so I don't think that the break-up qualifies as a self-esteem issue. 

     The second time they almost broke up, was it because the previous time she wasn't sure (as she wasn't sure about her feelings again)  and broke it off and came to regret it later?   So, this time,  she couldn't bring herself to break it off and possibly make the same mistake.  She hung in there, trying to work it out in her mind,  worked it out, and became able  to verbalize her love.   Again, no self-esteem issues.  

      It can be a lot of fun trying to analyze this, the problem being there simply isn't enough information to do a good job of analyzing it.   So far this year, there have been 18 episodes aired.  That's 540 minutes and I'd be vastly surprised of there were more than 75 minutes of Penny/Leonard interaction plus the three women talking about the Penny/Leonard situation.   Trying to determine motivations, issues, problems, not to mention their thinking over the 75 minutes representing six months of their lives isn't really possible.  I mean we can all give our inputs and examples to support those inputs, but the ambiguity of some of the examples kinda, sorta, makes it difficult to actually pin any of this down. 

 

Believing that breaking up with him because she couldn't verbalize her feelings was a kind gesture can easily be interpreted as low self-esteem.  Low self-esteem doesn't keep a woman from loving a man, it just makes them feel unworthy and uncomfortable.  It makes sense that if she had deeper feelings for Leonard than she had for previous BFs she would be scared and resistant because she assumes at some point the other shoe will drop and she will suffer even more pain.

 

When she contemplated breaking up with him the second time it could also be viewed as a flight reaction to her fears.  However, just because someone has low self-esteem doesn't mean it is going to be the deciding factor in every decision.  In this case hurting Leonard was scarier than whatever happens to her when she assumes it all falls apart.

 

She had a similiar reaction in Spoiler Alert.

 

Her attempt to ruin VD in Tangible was also a reaction to her fears because as she said it thing had been going so great.  Now that she realizes that she doesn't want to be the one that ends it she gives him reasons to end it.

 

All of that is textbook low self-esteem. 

[BangerMain]

But Penny clearly said that she was in love before , but this may be new better and boring kind of love...so she clearly was implying that her previous boyfriends were more exciting than Leonard. And as I have posted before  , the only reason she would be insecure about her relationship with Leonard was supposed to be his smartness which she according to herself she sometimes forgot ...so no insecurity or no self-esteem issues while trying to break-up with Leonard the second time....

 

 

and I guess the major problem with that arc of Penny thinking of breaking-up with Leonard again was .....when Leonard was with Priya...she acted as she recognized that Leonard is a great guy ...so I think it is safe to assume that one would think that when they got back together she would never even think of letting him go again no matter what......but here she almost goes through with it  again....which made her character a little bit unlikable....

 

The writers probably wanted to push Penny a little bit back-wards before showing growth in her....but they probably went a bit too far...IMO

 

As a member of the "Penny has low self esteem" army, I think it's best if we agree to disagree, Vasu

 

What we can agree on is the way they handled the "Penny is thinking of breaking up with Leonard" in 6.02, that was pure setup plotting by the writers to show Penny's growth in season 6. As you said they went backwards with her to show the growth systematically..

 

Steve Malaro and Bill Prady said last summer that they were going to show Penny maturing in season 6. They said they would use certain tools to get the job done, her friends (primarily Bernadette as it turned out with some help from Amy, Sheldon and Raj) and an outside catalyst (that turned out to be Alex). It was almost a check list as each of the first six episodes featured "Penny's Greatest Hits":

 

6.01 - Penny won't say I love you

6.02 - She wants to run when Leonard presses her for a committment

6.03 - Penny wants Leonard whenever she sees another woman after him.

6.04 - Penny does not participate in his nerdy lifestyle

6.05 - She is only interested in how Leonard pleases her and not his work.

6.06 - Penny is intimidated by their education gap.

 

They laid out all the issues for review then began to fix them either in the same episode or those that followed

 

She has now:

 

- Said I love you

- Admitted to having commitment fears about marriage and she and Leonard found a"solution"

- Admitted she is jealous of more accomplished women and is insecure

- Allowed him to do his Comicon road trip to Bakersfield and got into comic books herself.

- Gone to his work place and became somewhat interested in what he does. She even goes to  lectures with him.

- Took a history class at PCC, The jury is still out on how her higher educational path is going

 

Since the second season they have shown that Penny is miserable when Leonard is not around and TPTB are slowly having her acknowledge this fact.

Edited March 11, 2013 by BangerMain

[hamerman55]

I still think that Penny's reactions in the Valentine episode to the couple she knew getting engaged at the restaurant was pretty extreme and just bad. She's dismissive of Leonard when he points out that things did end happy for her since she's with him, She's also totally focused on the other couple throughout the dinner, until Leonard finally calls her out on ruining the dinner. Then she fights with him (did anyone see the script for them while they were fighting and Howard and Bernie were making up?). When they get back to her apartment, and she agrees with Leonard that she ruined the dinner, more less on purpose, because things are going so well and she's so happy with him. Yet when she thinks Leonard is breaking up with her, she panics. As BangerMain noted above, "she's miserable when Leonard is not around" and I think she kind of hates it. Her own emotions are trapping her into staying with Leonard, and there's something about that she can't seem to stand. Any escalation of the commitment in the relationship frightens her, yet she is unhappy without it. I guess my point is that her reaction is so extreme. She had nothing to lose by ignoring the other couple and enjoying the evening with Leonard. Is she afraid she'll more deeply in love and accept his proposal? These aren't just commitment issues, they are serious commitment issues. TPTB have to fix this soon. Leonard could have reasonably said that until she's figures out the commitment problems, he's going to leave her alone.

The funny thing is once Leonard promises not to ask her to marry him again, and let's her decide, she gets all cute and shy, which is a good look for her. It also shows the writers can make her an attractive character again, like she was in the first couple of seasons. I do wonder if Leonard's statement that if Penny decides she wants to marry him, it is up to her, is really qualified by the "if" as opposed to a "when". He leaves it open that she may not ever decide to marry him. Will he stick around forever?

Edited March 12, 2013 by hamerman55

[Spaced_up]

I still think that Penny's reactions in the Valentine episode to the couple she knew getting engaged at the restaurant was pretty extreme and just bad. She's dismissive of Leonard when he points out that things did end happy for her since she's with him, She's also totally focused on the other couple throughout the dinner, until Leonard finally calls her out on ruining the dinner. Then she fights with him (did anyone see the script for them while they were fighting and Howard and Bernie were making up?). When they get back to her apartment, and she agrees with Leonard that she ruined the dinner, more less on purpose, because things are going so well and she's so happy with him. Yet when she thinks Leonard is breaking up with her, she panics. As BangerMain noted above, "she's miserable when Leonard is not around" and I think she kind of hates it. Her own emotions are trapping her into staying with Leonard, and there's something about that she can't seem to stand. Any escalation of the commitment in the relationship frightens her, yet she is unhappy without it. I guess my point is that her reaction is so extreme. She had nothing to lose by ignoring the other couple and enjoying the evening with Leonard. Is she afraid she'll more deeply in love and accept his proposal? These aren't just commitment issues, they are serious commitment issues. TPTB have to fix this soon. Leonard could have reasonably said that until she's figures out the commitment problems, he's going to leave her alone.

The funny thing is once Leonard promises not to ask her to marry him again, and let's her decide, she gets all cute and shy, which is a good look for her. It also shows the writers can make her an attractive character again, like she was in the first couple of seasons. I do wonder if Leonard's statement that if Penny decides she wants to marry him, it is up to her, is really qualified by the "if" as opposed to a "when". He leaves it open that she may not ever decide to marry him. Will he stick around forever?

 

I so agree with this. Penny always seemed like the type of girl who would march over to her ex and show off her smart successful new boyfriend. It would have been funnier if she'd become competitive about it, instead of indirectly almost putting Leonard down. Penny has no confidence anymore, they have taken it all away. 

[idrive65]

I think there is a shallow part of Penny that would have reacted very differently in the restaurant if Leonard looked like Dr. David Underhill.

Edited March 12, 2013 by idrive65