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6.15 The Spoiler Alert Segmentation (Feb. 7)


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I'm rewatching this episode, and my take on the scene where Leonard and Penny start discussing him moving in is that he senses her reluctance, and point blank asks her if she has a problem with it. In fact, he asks her several times.

1. Leonard "Is that a problem". Penny "No, not at all. It's great". Then she goes off about Harry and Ginny.

2. Leonard "Wow, it sounds like you don't want us to live together". Penny "No. No, no, no, I do. But its a really big step."

3. Leonard "Can you give me one reason why we shouldn't live together?". Penny "No, I got nothing".

So three times Leonard calls her out about sounding reluctant, and she could have elaborated but instead agrees for him to move in. He did pick up her tone, and tried to have a discussion with her about moving in. I'm not really sure what else he could do, especially since he was focused on getting away from Sheldon. Actually, why wouldn't he move in with his long-term girlfriend, at least temporarily? Given that Leonard is a nerd, and at least a little tone-deaf to nuance as nerds are supposed to be, I thought he did remarkably well in picking up on her sub textual cues, and did what he could - ask for clarification. It isn't his fault that Penny kept saying yes, and avoiding having a real discussion. 

i may be completely wrong  here but I think the main reason why Penny keeps on denying she has a problem with Leonard moving in with her is the fact that he is so confident and comfortable with it. There is no shadow of a doubt in his mind that it is the right thing to do whereas Penny, immediately, gets a bit freaked out.

When she says "No, no, no, no. I do... But it's a big step", it looks to me like she is trying to make him admit that he is a bit panicked as well, that he, like her, is slightly frightened at the prospect, that he too thinks it is a massive deal. Basically, she is looking for a confirmation/validation of her own feelings in him. But Leonard is very calm and serene : to him, it is all very natural and nothing to be afraid of. And that makes her feel all the more panicky and inadequate. It's a chain reaction : the more comfortable with the situation Leonard is/appears, the more Penny is convinced she too should be perfectly ok with it, the more it clashes with her natural reaction (fear/doubt), the more it exacerbates it, the less she can cope... until it explodes in her and his faces.

 

I believe that is why Penny keeps on denying she has a problem with their new living arrangement : not only does she not want to hurt Leonard's feelings, but she is also convinced she should not be reacting the way she is anyway. And the latter may stem both from Leonard's artfully rational way to present the arguments in favour of the move and from his own calm demeanour throughout the whole thing.

 

i think they may very well be ready to live together but they need to be on the same page when they do so : first it obviously shouldn't be motivated by Sheldon's weird habits; secondly, they should both give the same meaning or weight to the decision. If it is all very easy and simple to one of them but a huge, life-altering change to the other, it is not going to work. Indeed, it didn't. 

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The thing is, that after rewatching the episode, I don't think Amy realized what she was doing relationship-wise.   She kept repeating "roomate" and how good she was at everything that Leonard did,

Sheldon thought her lips looked too slippery...

After two watches, I'm still busy laughing at Raj's plot. I thought he was HILARIOUS in this episode - especially his desperate expressions on the phone - and Kunal definitely did a great job if he's

 If you read my previous posts about this episode , you will find that I am putting most of the blame on Leonard for the things he did in this episode...atleast Amy's desperation was understandable and her reactions were clearly show........

 

So if you thought that I thought Penny and Sheldon should have let their so's move in .. you are wrong....

 

My point was that everything in this episode felt so forced and given the horrible ending it felt like the writers were just following a template for comedy instead of focusing on whether the character's would do things like this given their past...

 

I didn't find it at all forced or contrived and I didn't find the ending horrible, either.  I think it was fitting because of the nature of the blow-up and because Leonard was indeed in the wrong to try to force himself into Penny's apartment without giving her a chance to weigh the idea.  He put her on the spot and made it difficult for her to say that she wasn't ready--it's the old "Do these pants make me look fat?" kind of no-win situation.

Do you hurt their feelings with the truth--"Yes, they make you look fat" ("No, you can't live here")?

Do you lie and create an uncomfortable situation--"No, you look fine" ("Sure, move on in") that will only turn out bad in the end?

 

So, in the end, though Amy was somewhat oblivious to her mis-step, Leonard understood and was properly chagrined at his mistake.  Since he and Sheldon are not the sort to really apologize easily--and Sheldon was also somewhat chagrined at his own cowardly behavior--they kind of did the guy-thing and "apologized" by not apologizing, but by trying to go back to their regular routine.

 

I loved it.

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While I can give Penny a pass on not being ready when it is sprung on her the fact she can't articulate why she isn't ready to move in together is unacceptable. Even if she had just said that she wanted a chance to talk about it before making a big step it would have been something. Their ship seems to have no rudder.

Yes, I worry not so much that they are rudderless but that they might end up being towed around by another ship. Maybe they will just run parallel tracks for a while then diverge and lay their own course, again.

Edited by Nogravitasatall

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I just got around to watching this episode. It honestly SUCKED. The last 3 have been pretty bad after what was looking like a pretty decent season. The end where Penny says that Leonard and Sheldon are jackasses to her and Amy I don't get. Especially considering Amy is the one that wanted to move in with Sheldon. If anything Penny dear it's YOU and Sheldon. Way to be a HYPOCRITE. You and Sheldon had the same problem. From Penny's standpoint lol. Wasnt she living with a guy at the beginning of the show, or had just moved out on after a few years. You know Leonard for 6 years and you can't live with him but sleep with him as you please, WHAT AM I MISSING?!

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No offense, but if you are just now getting that feeling you haven't been paying close attention.  :p

 

I just got through hiding 40 love notes all over the house for my wife to find tomorrow and probably for several days after Valentine's day.

 

:icon_eek:  Cheers to that!

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No offense, but if you are just now getting that feeling you haven't been paying close attention.  :p

 

I just got through hiding 40 love notes all over the house for my wife to find tomorrow and probably for several days after Valentine's day.

 

I hold romance to a very high standard.

 

40 love notes? Wow. People outside of teenage girls take this joke of an abomination day seriously? lol

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I just got around to watching this episode. It honestly SUCKED. The last 3 have been pretty bad after what was looking like a pretty decent season. The end where Penny says that Leonard and Sheldon are jackasses to her and Amy I don't get. Especially considering Amy is the one that wanted to move in with Sheldon. If anything Penny dear it's YOU and Sheldon. Way to be a HYPOCRITE. You and Sheldon had the same problem. From Penny's standpoint lol. Wasnt she living with a guy at the beginning of the show, or had just moved out on after a few years. You know Leonard for 6 years and you can't live with him but sleep with him as you please, WHAT AM I MISSING?!

Yeah, I don't think you got it at all.

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Yeah, I don't think you got it at all.

How not? We know by now Sheldon is socially eccentric(even if the writers are "unwilling" to come out and say it.) Sheldon is basically autistic. So he gets a pass for not knowing how to deal with this kinda stuff. But someone like Penny who has been with a billion guys should know how to deal with this situation and with relationships in general.

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How not? We know by now Sheldon is socially eccentric(even if the writers are "unwilling" to come out and say it.) Sheldon is basically autistic. So he gets a pass for not knowing how to deal with this kinda stuff. But someone like Penny who has been with a billion guys should know how to deal with this situation and with relationships in general.

 

It's not about Sheldon being "autistic", which he isn't, and it's not about how many boyfriends Penny has had.  For all we know, the only guy she ever lived with before was Kurt and that didn't turn out well.

And we don't know much about the nature of her previous relationships--from what we've seen we know that she has dated on a shallower, non-committal basis (various different guys, no long-term boyfriends since she moved into the building), but we don't know why she moved on apart from the 2 or 3 where we saw something about the break-up--the guy whose iPod she threw out, that physicist guy who turned out to be married.

So, it could very well be that she hasn't really had to deal with committment apart from Kurt, and she's wary of going down that path at this point.  And if Leonard is different from all the guys she's ever dated in the past, then it's a whole new ballgame.

It seems to me that she has kind of operated the way she was used to--she knows she's pretty and desirable, she likes Leonard a lot, he likes her, she doesn't have to work very hard, if at all, to keep him coming around.  When she finds herself really drawn to him, at the end of S3, she goes with it, but doesn't seem to have any kind of long-term plan.  So when Leonard gets all serious on her and drops the L-bomb, she panics.

 

This kind of situation, with a smart, nice guy who really loves her, is new to her and she's almost as out of her element as Sheldon is, in a way.  So, I think that she's having to kind of work her way through all of the steps in their relationship, including being willing to look down the long road instead of just existing in the moment, which is what she's more used to.

But when Leonard kind of forces his way into her apartment, she's very torn--just as she says.  She might have been willing to consider Leonard moving in with her if he had just brought it up as a future possibiltiy at some point and given her time to weigh the pros and cons, especially since she lives in such a small apartment.  Even though they sleep together, is she willing to have him shaving in her bathroom?  Pooping in her bathroom? Leaving his underwear lying around?  Or to have to give up room in her medicine cabinet, have his sci-fi crap all over her apartment, etc?

He doesn't really give her a chance to say no and then she doesn't want to hurt his feelings, so she's trying to figure out how to break it to him.

But Sheldon doesn't give her a chance because he chickens out of his own chance to tell the truth and simply blames it all on Penny.

 

I don't think that Penny and Sheldon were to blame in this case, apart from their inability to say no at the outset.  I do think that they were both caught off-guard and weren't able to come up with an easy way to turn their SO's down.  So then, by not objecting at the beginning, they found themselves stuck.

Amy and Leonard were the ones who were oblivious and essentially selfish, assuming that just because they thought it was a good idea that their SO's should, too.  THey simply foisted themselves on Penny and Sheldon like unexpected guests.

 

All in all, I think it was a fun sort of comedy of errors, but with some real relationship stuff underlying it all.  But I also think that Penny was actually working hard at not overreacting.

 

ETA: Penny didn't call the guys jackasses, but jerks.  And, yeah, they were jerks--Leonard for forcing his way into her apartment and Sheldon for being afraid to be honest about why Amy couldn't move in with him.

Edited by phantagrae
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It's not about Sheldon being "autistic", which he isn't, and it's not about how many boyfriends Penny has had.  For all we know, the only guy she ever lived with before was Kurt and that didn't turn out well.

And we don't know much about the nature of her previous relationships--from what we've seen we know that she has dated on a shallower, non-committal basis (various different guys, no long-term boyfriends since she moved into the building), but we don't know why she moved on apart from the 2 or 3 where we saw something about the break-up--the guy whose iPod she threw out, that physicist guy who turned out to be married.

So, it could very well be that she hasn't really had to deal with committment apart from Kurt, and she's wary of going down that path at this point.  And if Leonard is different from all the guys she's ever dated in the past, then it's a whole new ballgame.

It seems to me that she has kind of operated the way she was used to--she knows she's pretty and desirable, she likes Leonard a lot, he likes her, she doesn't have to work very hard, if at all, to keep him coming around.  When she finds herself really drawn to him, at the end of S3, she goes with it, but doesn't seem to have any kind of long-term plan.  So when Leonard gets all serious on her and drops the L-bomb, she panics.

 

This kind of situation, with a smart, nice guy who really loves her, is new to her and she's almost as out of her element as Sheldon is, in a way.  So, I think that she's having to kind of work her way through all of the steps in their relationship, including being willing to look down the long road instead of just existing in the moment, which is what she's more used to.

But when Leonard kind of forces his way into her apartment, she's very torn--just as she says.  She might have been willing to consider Leonard moving in with her if he had just brought it up as a future possibiltiy at some point and given her time to weigh the pros and cons, especially since she lives in such a small apartment.  Even though they sleep together, is she willing to have him shaving in her bathroom?  Pooping in her bathroom? Leaving his underwear lying around?  Or to have to give up room in her medicine cabinet, have his sci-fi crap all over her apartment, etc?

He doesn't really give her a chance to say no and then she doesn't want to hurt his feelings, so she's trying to figure out how to break it to him.

But Sheldon doesn't give her a chance because he chickens out of his own chance to tell the truth and simply blames it all on Penny.

 

I don't think that Penny and Sheldon were to blame in this case, apart from their inability to say no at the outset.  I do think that they were both caught off-guard and weren't able to come up with an easy way to turn their SO's down.  So then, by not objecting at the beginning, they found themselves stuck.

Amy and Leonard were the ones who were oblivious and essentially selfish, assuming that just because they thought it was a good idea that their SO's should, too.  THey simply foisted themselves on Penny and Sheldon like unexpected guests.

 

All in all, I think it was a fun sort of comedy of errors, but with some real relationship stuff underlying it all.  But I also think that Penny was actually working hard at not overreacting.

 

ETA: Penny didn't call the guys jackasses, but jerks.  And, yeah, they were jerks--Leonard for forcing his way into her apartment and Sheldon for being afraid to be honest about why Amy couldn't move in with him.

Ditto. And yes there were some relationship stuff happening in this ep. The doorway scene with L,P, and S was huge.

I see Penny the same way. Despite the fact that she has supposedly been with a lot of guys / relationships, Leonard is nothing like the kind of guys she's been with and first guy who is "nice, honest, and actually cares about her". In addition, her previous relationships (minus Kurt) seem to be short term and non committal. Leonard and the seriousness of thier relationship is beyond Penny's norm, so she's more or less learning on the fly.

Sheldon and Amy are both in thier first relationship, ever. They are more like the blind leading the blind.

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It might surprise many who have read my earlier post, but this episode Lenard was the one who screwed up.

 

I don’t think he was being a jerk on purpose, but he should have asked … meaning really asked.  I think I would have handled it by asking to stay a couple days until the crap got straightened out and then maybe bring it up gradually and made sure the girl understood there wasn’t pressure. 

 

Because Penny is correct it is a big step.

 

I also agree most of her previous “relationships” were extremely shallow and based on sex, her relationship with Lenard is likely the deepest she ever had and it still scares the crap out of her.


As for Sheldon and Amy, anyone who has watched Sheldon over the last six years knew he would find a way to weasel out of it.  The boy has serious intimacy issues and has problems with the opposite sex.

 

So him find an out and then throwing Penny under the bus was totally in character.



 

 



 

Edited by Dbear12

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Hey, sorry I am not reading all the post here (I am coming late) and maybe someone just talked about that but:

we were able to see Howard´s mother!!!! :icon_eek::icon_lol:

 

Yup, but we still haven't seen her face, and personally, I never want to. I like the mystery. I want her to follow in the footsteps of Vera Peterson, Maris Crane, and Carlton the doorman.

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Yup, but we still haven't seen her face, and personally, I never want to. I like the mystery. I want her to follow in the footsteps of Vera Peterson, Maris Crane, and Carlton the doorman.

 

Agree :)

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i may be completely wrong  here but I think the main reason why Penny keeps on denying she has a problem with Leonard moving in with her is the fact that he is so confident and comfortable with it. There is no shadow of a doubt in his mind that it is the right thing to do whereas Penny, immediately, gets a bit freaked out.

When she says "No, no, no, no. I do... But it's a big step", it looks to me like she is trying to make him admit that he is a bit panicked as well, that he, like her, is slightly frightened at the prospect, that he too thinks it is a massive deal. Basically, she is looking for a confirmation/validation of her own feelings in him. But Leonard is very calm and serene : to him, it is all very natural and nothing to be afraid of. And that makes her feel all the more panicky and inadequate. It's a chain reaction : the more comfortable with the situation Leonard is/appears, the more Penny is convinced she too should be perfectly ok with it, the more it clashes with her natural reaction (fear/doubt), the more it exacerbates it, the less she can cope... until it explodes in her and his faces.

 

I believe that is why Penny keeps on denying she has a problem with their new living arrangement : not only does she not want to hurt Leonard's feelings, but she is also convinced she should not be reacting the way she is anyway. And the latter may stem both from Leonard's artfully rational way to present the arguments in favour of the move and from his own calm demeanour throughout the whole thing.

 

i think they may very well be ready to live together but they need to be on the same page when they do so : first it obviously shouldn't be motivated by Sheldon's weird habits; secondly, they should both give the same meaning or weight to the decision. If it is all very easy and simple to one of them but a huge, life-altering change to the other, it is not going to work. Indeed, it didn't. 

It may that Penny is reacting to Leonard's comfort with the idea of moving in, but it makes sense that he is. He's been in love with her since the first episode, and has no real secrets from her. He's asked her to marry him, multiple times apparently, which includes the whole moving in thing with it. His arguments for moving in are logical and compelling but a Ph.D. scientist is going to be able to make strong logical arguments for their points. Amy did the same with Sheldon. Neither Sheldon nor Penny could refute the logic of moving in together presented by their partners. Sheldon and Penny had emotional objections to theirs partners moving in, but apparently neither was secure enough in the relationship to bring it up. It is interesting that the emotional polar opposites to Leonard, according to the original conception of the show, are in the same place. It is remarkable that the show actually has Sheldon in the same spot as Penny. Early season Sheldon would have bowed to the logic, now his emotions over rule the logic.

Penny just seems scared to me. She's lost power in the relationship, as Leonard is being more assertive. As she asked him to be. Yet twice he's been assertive (moving in and marriage in the last two episodes respectively) and she has nixed both actions by Leonard simply due to her fear of commitment. Leonard has successfully drilled down to the stumbling block in their relationship, and I think fixed it. It is now "all on her" (to paraphrase Leonard) so she has to make the next relationship upgrade. It is funny that Penny has what she wants in an improved Leonard (I'm sure he took everything in the bug reports to heart) and I believe is falling harder for him. It scares her that she is losing herself to Leonard.

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It may that Penny is reacting to Leonard's comfort with the idea of moving in, but it makes sense that he is. He's been in love with her since the first episode, and has no real secrets from her. He's asked her to marry him, multiple times apparently, which includes the whole moving in thing with it. His arguments for moving in are logical and compelling but a Ph.D. scientist is going to be able to make strong logical arguments for their points. Amy did the same with Sheldon. Neither Sheldon nor Penny could refute the logic of moving in together presented by their partners. Sheldon and Penny had emotional objections to theirs partners moving in, but apparently neither was secure enough in the relationship to bring it up. It is interesting that the emotional polar opposites to Leonard, according to the original conception of the show, are in the same place. It is remarkable that the show actually has Sheldon in the same spot as Penny. Early season Sheldon would have bowed to the logic, now his emotions over rule the logic.

Penny just seems scared to me. She's lost power in the relationship, as Leonard is being more assertive. As she asked him to be. Yet twice he's been assertive (moving in and marriage in the last two episodes respectively) and she has nixed both actions by Leonard simply due to her fear of commitment. Leonard has successfully drilled down to the stumbling block in their relationship, and I think fixed it. It is now "all on her" (to paraphrase Leonard) so she has to make the next relationship upgrade. It is funny that Penny has what she wants in an improved Leonard (I'm sure he took everything in the bug reports to heart) and I believe is falling harder for him. It scares her that she is losing herself to Leonard.

 

I don't think it's so much about having lost the upper hand in their relationship as much as it's just not wanting to be pushed into the idea of living together.

 

While it's true that Penny's and Sheldon's objections are more about emotional issues--not being ready for it--I think that the main reason neither of them are able to articulate their objections is that because Leonard and Amy take a primarily "logical" approach, the rejection of their idea then seems to be personal--"I don't want to live with you" --and seems like a personal rejection, as in "I don't like/love you enough to want to live with you", which it isn't.

 

For Sheldon, it really is about being too initmate--even if they were not sharing a bedroom--at a stage where he's just not ready for such closeness.  It's been hard enough for him to learn to live with Leonard (as we've heard in the past) and having to live with a girl, even if she's his girlfriend, is just too big a step.

For Penny, it's a more subtle thing.  While she's lived with a guy in the past, that didn't turn out well.  She was in love, or thought she was, and then it all went bad.  She's finally getting to a point where she's accepting the idea of really being in love, but she still taking baby steps in the idea of that kind of committment.  Even though she and Leonard are sleeping together, it's still a big deal to lose your privacy and your space from that other person.  Like she said, "the happiness won't ever leave the apartment".

 

But for both Penny and Sheldon, they know that objecting to the idea means that it's going to feel like personal rejection and neither of them wants to hurt their SO's feelings.  The reasons for not wanting the other person to move in are far more sublte and personal than the mere external logic of it, and thus, harder to explain, especially under such pressure as a romantic relationship.  In both cases, it's not a rejection of the relationship or of the person, but it can easily be interpreted that way by Amy and Leonard.

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I didn't find it at all forced or contrived and I didn't find the ending horrible, either.  I think it was fitting because of the nature of the blow-up and because Leonard was indeed in the wrong to try to force himself into Penny's apartment without giving her a chance to weigh the idea.  He put her on the spot and made it difficult for her to say that she wasn't ready--it's the old "Do these pants make me look fat?" kind of no-win situation.

Do you hurt their feelings with the truth--"Yes, they make you look fat" ("No, you can't live here")?

Do you lie and create an uncomfortable situation--"No, you look fine" ("Sure, move on in") that will only turn out bad in the end?

 

So, in the end, though Amy was somewhat oblivious to her mis-step, Leonard understood and was properly chagrined at his mistake.  Since he and Sheldon are not the sort to really apologize easily--and Sheldon was also somewhat chagrined at his own cowardly behavior--they kind of did the guy-thing and "apologized" by not apologizing, but by trying to go back to their regular routine.

 

I loved it.

 

look sweetheart.....if you loved it.....great....good for you....

but I did not like and I will state the reasons why ..... again...

 

- The first fight scene... Sheldon does not like being spoiled...yet here he spoils Leonard.....he was not oblivious....so it makes him an ass.....and recently it looked like Leonard is being a little more assertive with Sheldon (the episode before this).....but having him snap in a way he did felt out of sync...

 

- then Leonard  looks foolish and inconsiderate when he tells Penny he would be moving in....and the lack of focus on  Leonard's reactions was poor ... it should be huge news for Leonard....but we get nothing as the focus was entirely on Penny's horror....

 

- and in the ending scene after Penny says he forced it upon her....he suddenly understands everything...when from his point of view, she was quite happy with him moving in earlier..;..so it felt forced...

 

- Amy was so distraught when Sheldon revealed that he did not want to live with her...it felt like a cop out when she merely heads to Penny to complain...

 

None of this felt like the things these characters would do...the writers probably just wanted to have Sheldon and Penny to be in a similar position...,.so they followed a template for comedy instead of thinking hard on characters state of mind...

 

 

I don't see how Amy was oblivious in her mis-step....she clearly stated she was best girlfriend he was ever going to get when they were discussing about roommates...so it was the first thing on her mind....which probably is believable because she desperately wants to move things forward in their relationship and will try to get any little attention from him.....

 

And it has to be one of Leonard and Amy or Sheldon  and Penny to be the wrong ones here...and yet it was Sheldon and Leonard in the end who were wrong...

probably from Penny's point of view they were jerks because they both were affecting her but it was a wrong story....Leonard correctly had to suffer the wrath from Penny but why Sheldon had to suffer the wrath from Amy when he really did not do anything wrong because Amy gave him no chance...

Edited by vasu

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look sweetheart.....if you loved it.....great....good for you....

but I did not like and I will state the reasons why ..... again...

 

- The first fight scene... Sheldon does not like being spoiled...yet here he spoils Leonard.....he was not oblivious....so it makes him an ass.....and recently it looked like Leonard is being a little more assertive with Sheldon (the episode before this).....but having him snap in a way he did felt out of sync...

 

- then Leonard  looks foolish and inconsiderate when he tells Penny he would be moving in....and the lack of focus on  Leonard's reactions ... it should be huge news for Leonard....but we get nothing as the focus was entirely on Penny's horror....

 

- and in the ending scene after Penny says he forced it upon her....he suddenly understands everything...when from his point of view, she was quite happy with him moving in earlier..;..so it felt forced...

 

- Amy was so distraught when Sheldon revealed that he did not want to live with her...it felt like a cop out when she merely heads to Penny to complain...

They ran out of time.

 

It would be nice if they didn't keep stealing story time for commercials...

 

Gives us 2 more minutes and a resolution!

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look sweetheart.....if you loved it.....great....good for you....

but I did not like and I will state the reasons why ..... again...

Please don't call me "sweetheart", that's very condescending.

- The first fight scene... Sheldon does not like being spoiled...yet here he spoils Leonard.....he was not oblivious....so it makes him an ass.....and recently it looked like Leonard is being a little more assertive with Sheldon (the episode before this).....but having him snap in a way he did felt out of sync...

Of course Sheldon was acting like an ass--that was kind of the point. He's not only thoughtless, but he also piles on with all the stuff about Leonard's soy milk turning him into a woman. I think Sheldon was oblivious to a degree in the way he often is--he doesn't take others' feelings into account when he says or does whatever he feels like saying or doing. I think that all of that was simply the last straw, at least in this moment. I think that in some ways this fight between Sheldon and Leonard is no different than the fight they had in the Staircase Implementation, except that this time Leonard didn't just take temporary refuge with Penny, he figured that henhadnanreal alternative to putting up with Sheldon.

- then Leonard looks foolish and inconsiderate when he tells Penny he would be moving in....and the lack of focus on Leonard's reactions was poor ... it should be huge news for Leonard....but we get nothing as the focus was entirely on Penny's horror....

The point of the scene was Penny's reaction. We already know how Leonard feels--he sees moving in with Penny as a perfect solution. He isn't looking at it as a big emotional step, or a big relationship step--that's the point. He sees it as a solution to his Sheldon problem and as a logical step because he and Penny are together.

The point is that he doesn't think of it as a big step, thus Penny's reaction. The focus on Penny's reaction is important because the story is about the fact that Leonard foists himself on Penny and puts her on the spot--and then Amy does the same thing to Sheldon.

- and in the ending scene after Penny says he forced it upon her....he suddenly understands everything...when from his point of view, she was quite happy with him moving in earlier..;..so it felt forced...

He realizes his mistake, which is not unrealistic. At first, in the heat of the moment, he's so caught up in the idea of being able to get out from under Sheldon's thumb that he doesn't try to consider Penny's feelings. But when she points out exactly what he did, he does realize the truth because he's hearing it spoken very plainly and directly.

- Amy was so distraught when Sheldon revealed that he did not want to live with her...it felt like a cop out when she merely heads to Penny to complain...

She was frustrated and angry, but I wouldn't say she was distraught. When she first goes to knock on Penny's door, she really does believe that Penny, not Sheldon, is the obstacle to her moving in. Then when the truth comes out, she realizes what Sheldon did, but that he did it out of cowardice. She's still mad at him, and Penny's offer of an evening of shared ragging on their boyfriends is the outlet she needs. Se already knows that Sheldon doesn't want to live with her, so what would be the point of continuing to argue with him?

None of this felt like the things these characters would do...the writers probably just wanted to have Sheldon and Penny to be in a similar position...,.so they followed a template for comedy instead of thinking hard on characters state of mind...

I think it made a lot of sense. Leonard has often gotten frustrated with Sheldon and the RA and all of Sheldon's nonsense. But for the first time, he has what he sees as a real alternative. His initial misstep is what sets off the whole thing--a series of miscommunications and/or missteps compounding the situation. It wasn't about putting Sheldon and Penny in a similar position for its own sake, but that Leonard's action opened the opportunity for Amy to make the same mistake that Leonard made--foisting herself on Sheldon and putting him on the spot.

I don't see how Amy was oblivious in her mis-step....she clearly stated she was best girlfriend he was ever going to get when they were discussing about roommates...so it was the first thing on her mind....which probably is believable because she desperately wants to move things forward in their relationship and will try to get any little attention from him.....

She was oblivious in the same way that Leonard was. She was looking at the logic, but not at the emotional or personal aspect, just like Leonard did to Penny. She saw herself as a logical choice in terms of the external issues, but didn't look at whether or not Sheldon was ready to live with his girlfriend, emotionally or psychologically.

If he hadn't chickened out, he might have told her that even though she fit all the other things she listed, it was about his emotional readiness, not just about how good a girlfriend she was, or whether or not she wanted to live with him.

And it has to be one of Leonard and Amy or Sheldon and Penny to be the wrong ones here...and yet it was Sheldon and Leonard in the end who were wrong...

probably from Penny's point of view they were jerks because they both were affecting her but it was a wrong story....Leonard correctly had to suffer the wrath from Penny but why Sheldon had to suffer the wrath from Amy when he really did not do anything wrong because Amy gave him no chance...

Leonard was wrong for pushing his way in on Penny, but Sheldon was wrong to lie to Amy about why he didn't want her moving in. While Penny hadn't yet told Leonard the truth, she was planning to, until Sheldon messed it up by lying to Amy. Penny and Sheldon had agreed to tell Leonard and Amy the truth, Sheldon messed that up by chickening out and lying to Amy.

So, yeah, both Leonard and Sheldon were jerks in the end.

Edited by phantagrae

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I don't agree with making Leonard as much in the wrong as the current discussion states. They've practically treated the two apartments as a large house for years now. Penny has walked in without knocking since the first season. I'll bet Penny thinks of her apartment as functionally the "girl's room" in a large house. I keep thinking of the scene in the second season where she walks in on Leonard, Sheldon and Dr. Stephanie in her lingerie looking to mooch some coffee. In the second season, she's that casual with the guy's space. No knocking, no consideration of the privacy of the guys. This season, Leonard walks into her apartment without knocking too. Since the middle of this season, Leonard has probably slept in Penny's apartment most every night. In fact, most scenes of them alone this season have been eating together in Penny's apartment. They don't eat in the guy's apartment very much anymore. The functional aspects of living together are there, except for the very real problem of the lack of space in Penny's tiny apartment. Shoot, Leonard has covered the rent for her frequently, so he "owns" a piece of the place already.

Granted, he was more interested in getting away from Sheldon than taking a leap in the relationship. He was more focused on the "not living with Sheldon" part than the "moving in with Penny" aspect of the problem. I'll bet he hadn't thought about where he would live until Penny asked him. Once he said it, the virtues of the idea just rolled out. And he's not wrong. The only real issue was Penny viewing him moving in as a huge escalation of her relationship, that she was very happy with as it stood. I can sympathize with her in that things are the best she every had, and I imagine she would just like to bask in that happiness for a while with no relationship stress. After the VD episode, she's got that. Her asking Leonard to be her Valentine is probably a preproposal, to her.

To me, Leonard was a little tone deaf to the subtext of Penny's approving statements off him moving in. He wants to move on in the relationship, and how often does anyone pick up on subtext when they seem to be getting what they want. He asked her three times if she was sure. Him moving in is a big deal to Penny. However, combine this with what came out in the VD episode is that Penny is now terrified of losing Leonard, and doesn't know how to deal with it. She was totally passive-agressive on their Valentine's date, and Leonard had to drag the issue out of her with no help. I think he's doing pretty good, particularly for a nerd trying to understand an actress.

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I don't agree with making Leonard as much in the wrong as the current discussion states. They've practically treated the two apartments as a large house for years now. Penny has walked in without knocking since the first season. I'll bet Penny thinks of her apartment as functionally the "girl's room" in a large house. I keep thinking of the scene in the second season where she walks in on Leonard, Sheldon and Dr. Stephanie in her lingerie looking to mooch some coffee. In the second season, she's that casual with the guy's space. No knocking, no consideration of the privacy of the guys. This season, Leonard walks into her apartment without knocking too. Since the middle of this season, Leonard has probably slept in Penny's apartment most every night. In fact, most scenes of them alone this season have been eating together in Penny's apartment. They don't eat in the guy's apartment very much anymore. The functional aspects of living together are there, except for the very real problem of the lack of space in Penny's tiny apartment. Shoot, Leonard has covered the rent for her frequently, so he "owns" a piece of the place already.

Granted, he was more interested in getting away from Sheldon than taking a leap in the relationship. He was more focused on the "not living with Sheldon" part than the "moving in with Penny" aspect of the problem. I'll bet he hadn't thought about where he would live until Penny asked him. Once he said it, the virtues of the idea just rolled out. And he's not wrong. The only real issue was Penny viewing him moving in as a huge escalation of her relationship, that she was very happy with as it stood. I can sympathize with her in that things are the best she every had, and I imagine she would just like to bask in that happiness for a while with no relationship stress. After the VD episode, she's got that. Her asking Leonard to be her Valentine is probably a preproposal, to her.

To me, Leonard was a little tone deaf to the subtext of Penny's approving statements off him moving in. He wants to move on in the relationship, and how often does anyone pick up on subtext when they seem to be getting what they want. He asked her three times if she was sure. Him moving in is a big deal to Penny. However, combine this with what came out in the VD episode is that Penny is now terrified of losing Leonard, and doesn't know how to deal with it. She was totally passive-agressive on their Valentine's date, and Leonard had to drag the issue out of her with no help. I think he's doing pretty good, particularly for a nerd trying to understand an actress.

I do think that he was in the wrong, but not in an intentional way. He did tell Sheldon that he was going to go live with Penny before he went over there, so he had thought of it, but as you say, probably more as an escape than as a positive step.

The situation reminds me of when Dr. Stephanie basically moved in with Leonard without asking. Though it was a much shorter timeframe, the issue was essentially the same--they were a couple, but Leonard wasn't ready for her to be living with him. And he also had trouble trying to tell her the truth and has to resort to texting her.

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