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Are They Going To Have Sheldon Choose Amy Over Scientific Accomplishments?


Ar Diem

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I wasn't saying that you attacked anyone and I wasn't talking about your level of experience with romance.  I was talking about how you made an assumption about Pomita's life without asking her for clarification or anything, and then you get all upset that people reacted the way they did to your assumption.

 

If you want people to ask you to explain your posts before they say things about you, then why don't you ask before you say things about others.

 

 

I made an assumption based on how a post was worded and thought I was being kind in hoping for better future success.  I was wrong.  Instead of it being a conflict if I had been asked I would have explained myself.

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Did I use the word 'ogre'? I said you made some major assumptions about my personal life, which you did.

 

I think your comment was in response to my line: 'I don't have a huge experience about relationships (have been in just two), but this looks like a fair enough relationship to me in terms of the level of conflict and understanding'. By this I meant that I haven't had a large number of relationships, so I can't perform a statistical survey of what the 'average' levels of conflict and understanding are, but common observation says that Shamy falls in the 'fair' category.  I wasn't referring to the level of success of my present relationship. I see that you misunderstood this as me saying I've had a terrible time romantically so far, in which case yes, your comment was 'kind'. But it was still an assumption. And it's still a stretch to extrapolate our personal lives from whether we like a particular couple on-screen. 

 

 

You do sound romantic sometimes.  :icon_mrgreen:

 

 

Sursonica - thanks for those. Chuck Lorre has the last word, in this case!

 

 

And I apologized and I get that now.  I took it to mean that you had two relationships that did not go on for long.  If my second romance had been like my first I would have gladly accepted someone hoping for me to have better success in the future.

 

If I intend to offend there will be no doubt.

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And I apologized and I get that now.  I took it to mean that you had two relationships that did not go on for long.  If my second romance had been like my first I would have gladly accepted someone hoping for me to have better success in the future.

 

Fair enough, but my issue was not with that at all. It was with the contention that someone's enjoyment of a fictional pairing is somehow related to their romantic success or failure in real life. Your comment didn't just follow from misunderstanding what I said, but also from the theory that someone in a good relationship can't possibly like Shamy. 

 

Anyway, moving on. 

Edited by Pomita
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Fair enough, but my issue was not with that at all. It was with the contention that someone's enjoyment of a fictional pairing is somehow related to their romantic success or failure in real life. Your comment didn't just follow from misunderstanding what I said, but also from the theory that someone in a good relationship can't possibly like Shamy. 

 

Anyway, moving on. 

 

 

Yes.  I definitely said that.  I haven't decided whether or not I wish to withdraw it either.  Can we explore it on a friendly basis? 

 

If you go back and read one of my replies to Phantagrae you will see that I characterize this relationship as a fairy tale in progress.  The concept of love being enough to heal Sheldon and get him over all of the hurdles needed to be a good boyfriend is not believable.  In the real world even counseling may not get him all the way there.

 

How am I supposed to accept what in the real world would be a dysfunctional relationship as fullfilling for Amy?  Please don't say it is because the writers seem to make her content (most of the time) because that is convenient not believable.  They have made Amy to be more like Penny and Bernadette. What have the writers done to modify Amy from a normal female to be accepting of this guy who doesn't even seem to be attracted to her physically?  Is it because she has no better option?  Is it because she has low self esteem?

 

From my experience this type of romance is torture on Amy's end of things.  So I am just supposed to accept that it can be because some sitcom writers are writing it that way?  Believe me, I have know all kinds of couples, even sexless ones, and they are still not like this, at least not the healthy ones.

 

I counseled a couple recently in which the husband only lacked empathy for his wife.  I say only in the context that Sheldon is lacking so much more.  The couple had been married for 16 years and his lack of empathy has been a regular source of strife and has brought them to the brink of divorce several times.  He could not understand how his actions made her feel.  This was unacceptable, of course, because after 16 years even if he lacked empathy he should have a handle on what makes her upset.  I taught him some tricks and things are better now.  Things will never be truly ideal but she is happier than she was before.

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Yes.  I definitely said that.  I haven't decided whether or not I wish to withdraw it either.  Can we explore it on a friendly basis? 

 

If you go back and read one of my replies to Phantagrae you will see that I characterize this relationship as a fairy tale in progress.  The concept of love being enough to heal Sheldon and get him over all of the hurdles needed to be a good boyfriend is not believable.  In the real world even counseling may not get him all the way there.

 

How am I supposed to accept what in the real world would be a dysfunctional relationship as fullfilling for Amy?  Please don't say it is because the writers seem to make her content (most of the time) because that is convenient not believable.  They have made Amy to be more like Penny and Bernadette. What have the writers done to modify Amy from a normal female to be accepting of this guy who doesn't even seem to be attracted to her physically?  Is it because she has no better option?  Is it because she has low self esteem?

 

From my experience this type of romance is torture on Amy's end of things.  So I am just supposed to accept that it can be because some sitcom writers are writing it that way?  Believe me, I have know all kinds of couples, even sexless ones, and they are still not like this, at least not the healthy ones.

 

I counseled a couple recently in which the husband only lacked empathy for his wife.  I say only in the context that Sheldon is lacking so much more.  The couple had been married for 16 years and his lack of empathy has been a regular source of strife and has brought them to the brink of divorce several times.  He could not understand how his actions made her feel.  This was unacceptable, of course, because after 16 years even if he lacked empathy he should have a handle on what makes her upset.  I taught him some tricks and things are better now.  Things will never be truly ideal but she is happier than she was before.

Okay I guess I'm going to jump in with my two cents, against my better judgement. :icon_biggrin:

 

I do agree with a lot you are saying Ar Diem.  I use this movie "The Mirror has Two Faces", with Barbara Striesand and Jeff Brides(one of my favorites)  in this movie Bridges'character decides to forgo "feelings of sexual desire" and physical aspect out of his relationships, and forms a bond with Striesand based on intelligence and they are great campanions,teach at the same university.  She's brillant,hes brillant and they even get married.  However, Striesand's character DID want more affection, and the physical aspects of a  relationship.  It is (to me) one of the most heart wrenching scenes to watch when she request affection from him before he leaves on a long book tour and he rejects her.  She files for divorce.   It's terrible and I cry like somebody died everytime.  I use this as an example, because it would be hard to live with someone without affection if it is something that you crave.  It would be different if Amy was written with the same type of problems as Sheldon. if Amy wants more affection from Sheldon and he is unable to give it to her in a way that is satisfying to her, than it would be terrible for Amy...soooo the good news for a Shamer like me, is that they ARE fictional charaters and the writers have decided to allow her beau to work on his problems and be a better man for her!!! Love it! Hahahaha, so I want my fairytale ending for these two whatever that may be for them.  It's lovely to watch and totally addictive!

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Okay, I get your point to an extent ArDiem, I myself have said several times that those who look starry eyed at Sheldon (the character) saying that he is some kind of white knight in disguise and the best and most desirable alpha male of the group of nerd guys, probably wouldn't stand a week living with a real-life Sheldon, at least not without conceding and compromising in a lot of things.

 

The way you are painting a relationship between a guy like Sheldon with (let alone Amy) any woman is realistic and free of "fairy tale" situations. Yes, that's real life.

 

Problem is, this is not real life, and last time I checked, it wasn't a documentary either. It's a sitcom.

 

What I don't fully understand is: why are you so critical of the Shamy relationship (specifically)?, yes, it's kind of a fairytale, I've read hardcore shipper's analysis that call it that too. If you apply the same criteria you are applying to them, I'm sure at least 90% of fictional relationships are created under very idillic circumstances, something that in RL wouldn't apply, and would make all of them unrealistic and disastrous enough to not be able to operate in reality.

 

I'm not sure why you are fixated in the improbability of the Sheldon/Amy relationship, treating it that rigurously, you had just said a very good example that could be applicable: that couple you helped. The husband in that relationship had a serious problem of empathy, but he loved his wife enough to go to teraphy and work in his problem.

 

Think about it: Sheldon is doing exactly the same thing! He is consiciously working in his problem with the physical expression of love, because he wants Amy to have a satisfactory relationship too. Yeah, he is not going to teraphy, and yes, we are supposed to believe the "magic of love" will help him overcome his fears and phobias, but, again, this is not real life or a super-realistic drama.

 

By watching them and "buying" their stories, we are applying suspension disbelief, we know it's not how real life operates, but we choose to believe it because we like the characters and we want to believe they are happy. It's the same thing we have been doing for centuries with every kind of tales, and it doesn't necessarily have to be realistically plausible for us to enjoy them.

 

I'm sorry, but, for me, it sounds as if you don't believe in Shamy, it's mainly because you don't want to. And it's okay, it's your choice, not your cup of tea.

 

But it would be a nice gesture of your part to not imply that everyone who ships Shamy have had a disastrous love life or doesn't know what real, pure love is, even if your intention is a good one (as just happened with your comments to Pomita)

 

Edit: What ShamyFTW said, see? we are perfectly aware we are watching some kind of nerd-fairy tale, it's fiction and it's enjoyable for many of us, but we like to analyse it too, and we do. I think you said "happy threads doesn't get attention"...... have you looked the Shamy thread? (yes, it has a lot of squealing, but also a lot of analysis and great discussion :icon_wink: )

Edited by sarah7
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I know right! @ Sarah7.  You are so right in that we as an audience suspend belief for so many romantic tales....Twilight (come on!), Pretty Women....hooker lands rich client and they get married!  Hahaha,  I'll take the Shamy over that any day!

 

Besides it's just good storytelling.  You have two characters where it WOULD appear impossible for them to be together in a romantic relationship, but that's what makes it good!  We, the audience, are pulling for them!  Week, after week, after week, and in countless fanfic!

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Yes.  I definitely said that.  I haven't decided whether or not I wish to withdraw it either.  Can we explore it on a friendly basis? 

 

If you go back and read one of my replies to Phantagrae you will see that I characterize this relationship as a fairy tale in progress.  The concept of love being enough to heal Sheldon and get him over all of the hurdles needed to be a good boyfriend is not believable.  In the real world even counseling may not get him all the way there.

 

How am I supposed to accept what in the real world would be a dysfunctional relationship as fullfilling for Amy?  Please don't say it is because the writers seem to make her content (most of the time) because that is convenient not believable.  They have made Amy to be more like Penny and Bernadette. What have the writers done to modify Amy from a normal female to be accepting of this guy who doesn't even seem to be attracted to her physically?  Is it because she has no better option?  Is it because she has low self esteem?

 

From my experience this type of romance is torture on Amy's end of things.  So I am just supposed to accept that it can be because some sitcom writers are writing it that way?  Believe me, I have know all kinds of couples, even sexless ones, and they are still not like this, at least not the healthy ones.

 

I counseled a couple recently in which the husband only lacked empathy for his wife.  I say only in the context that Sheldon is lacking so much more.  The couple had been married for 16 years and his lack of empathy has been a regular source of strife and has brought them to the brink of divorce several times.  He could not understand how his actions made her feel.  This was unacceptable, of course, because after 16 years even if he lacked empathy he should have a handle on what makes her upset.  I taught him some tricks and things are better now.  Things will never be truly ideal but she is happier than she was before.

Where did you ever get the idea that anything on this show is supposed to be realistic?

As someone else pointed out, this isn't a documentary. It's not about real people with real problems.

We've often talked about how in real life Leonard and Sheldon wouldn't have to room together to afford an apartment, Sheldon would possibly get fired for some of his shenanigans, etc.

I don't see how the characters and their relationships are any different.

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Where did you ever get the idea that anything on this show is supposed to be realistic?

As someone else pointed out, this isn't a documentary. It's not about real people with real problems.

We've often talked about how in real life Leonard and Sheldon wouldn't have to room together to afford an apartment, Sheldon would possibly get fired for some of his shenanigans, etc.

I don't see how the characters and their relationships are any different.

 

OMG! Every single time I have written anything about how I don't like what they have done to Sheldon OR asked why they changed the direction of shamy, I have been greeted by the chorus: People change in real life. This has been used against my arguments dozens of times.

 

Now when someone writes an amazing well-reasoned argument against the realism of shamy the chorus changes to: This is not real life.

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Agree with Sarah's and Phanta's points above.

 

How am I supposed to accept what in the real world would be a dysfunctional relationship as fullfilling for Amy?  Please don't say it is because the writers seem to make her content (most of the time) because that is convenient not believable.  They have made Amy to be more like Penny and Bernadette. What have the writers done to modify Amy from a normal female to be accepting of this guy who doesn't even seem to be attracted to her physically?

 

I'll be repeating myself again.. because Amy is dysfunctional too, in many of the same ways that Sheldon is.  She doesn't have to be 'modified from a normal female' to be accepting of Sheldon, because nowhere has the show ever implied that she's a normal female (and if you think she is, I really have to wonder if you're watching a different show). She's as science-nerdy and intellectual as he is, as awkward and socially clueless as he is, as unmindful of dress and appearance as he is (at most times), and can be just as much or more inappropriate than him (watch the things that come out of her mouth sometimes). Those are the things they bonded on. Now the difference is that she's more enthusiastic about having a social life, and more curious for trying out her sexuality, than Sheldon is. I say 'trying out' because apart from her big talk, she's as much a greenhorn on those fronts as Sheldon is (another point of similarity). It may be argued that Amy would feel uncomfortable and out of place with a more 'normal', sexually active man, because he would probably expect much more from her than she's ready for, yet. People often forget that Amy has her own journey to make, regarding getting comfortable with intimacy, because she's just as inexperienced as Sheldon.

 

Sheldon has already shown himself to be capable of many of the acts of caring and consideration that are needed in a relationship, barring the physical affection part. At the very least, he's been a good friend to her. He's also expressed his willingness to go forward into greater physical intimacy, and he's working on it - something huge for a person as rigid and immovable as him. Could this have been possible in real life without counseling? Probably not. But then, could Sheldon or Amy have been possible in real life, just the way they are? If such characters actually existed, they would be in dire need of counseling long, long before even thinking of getting into a relationship. They would need it just to get along in the world, to get into a job, to interact with anyone around them without completely messing up. (the same is true of most of the characters on the show, to different extents, except perhaps Bernie).

 

But in the TBBT universe, they get by. And if I can suspend disbelief to accept that,  I can suspend disbelief to believe that someone like Sheldon might love and care for someone like Amy enough to work through some of his issues and learn to be there for her when and how she needs him. He doesn't need to change himself completely for that, not by a stretch - she clearly loves and accepts him for who he is, for the most part. A little more empathy and affection is all she needs.

 

 

Moonbase - as I said above, we all know that it's not real life, for any of the characters or any of the relationships. Yes, it's relatively more realistic to show the characters changing and evolving and getting into steady relationships at some point, rather than having them be exactly the same and trying and failing to get girls over 5+ years. More importantly, it would be boring.

 

About Sheldon, I don't think that realism is involved in having him change, because the character itself is so far out there that no-one knows what would or could be the logically 'real' progression for him. He's simply one of a kind. But I did feel in season 3 that he was getting one-dimensional and caricaturish; introducing Amy and their budding relationship shook that up and made him more unpredictable and interesting, for me, by showing a new aspect of him.

 

I just don't understand why the Sheldon/Amy relationship is the only thing on the show which has to be subjected to a hardcore 'real-life' analysis, when in fact these are the two characters who are too zany to be compared to real life at all.

Edited by Pomita
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OMG! Every single time I have written anything about how I don't like what they have done to Sheldon OR asked why they changed the direction of shamy, I have been greeted by the chorus: People change in real life. This has been used against my arguments dozens of times.

 

Now when someone writes an amazing well-reasoned argument against the realism of shamy the chorus changes to: This is not real life.

 

There's a difference between acknowledging that people in general change and that it's not impossible to imagine that the writers would write the characters growing and changing over the course of the show and the attitude that everything about the characters has to be realistic.

 

Some things are generally true, thus realistic--people can change.  So that if a character changes, it's not unrealistic for him to change.

But in fiction writing, what is said to be true is true--that a person falls in love with another person, for instance--without it having to be exactly like any particular clinical example.

 

Whether or not one knows a "Sheldon" and an "Amy" in real life and whether or not such people are or were ever able to fall in love or have a satisfying relationship doesn't matter.  In this story, these two people are capable of love.

 

So the general can be true to life and the specific doesn't necessarily have to be.  What is realistic is that people fall in love with whomever they're going to fall in love with and no one can say for sure what it is that one person may find in another that will make them open up, want to be a better person, make them want to grow up, etc.  If Amy and Sheldon--as fictional characters--can be shown to be finding that in each other, how can one then say that it can't happen?

 

In fiction writing, the burden of proof is on the writer to show how such a thing can happen, and in this case we've been given such information.  Sheldon has looked down his nose at romantic entanglements, but he's never had to deal with his own entanglement because no one has ever come along who struck such a chord with him until he met Amy.

And his attraction to her seems to have been both mental--which he understands--and visceral--which he is only slowly beginning to comprehend.

 

Because that is the story that is being written, and the writers are showing us the process, then that is what is true for this story.  It doesn't have to replicate anything in real life because even if one knows a Sheldon-like person in real life, that doesn't mean that our Sheldon is going to be exactly like the person in real life.

If the writers say that Sheldon begins to discover that he does love Amy and does want to eventually be able to touch her and eventually have sex with her, then that becomes true for Sheldon.

 

Those are the specifics that are "realistic" for this fictional character.  But his story and his details are not required to match up to any clinical discription or example in the real world because this is a fictional character.

 

But it doesn't change the fact that some real-life elements do apply to the story that's being told, like the fact that people--and fictional characters--can and do change and grow.

Edited by phantagrae
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Totally agree with your post Phantagrae

 

In fiction, what we are looking is not "veracity", but "probability", wich means, when we enter a fictional world, in this case, the TBBT universe, we are agreeing to subject ourselves to certain rules, rules that will only apply for that particular world.

 

Real life scientists and Pysicists and even Engineers would make much more money than the money the guys of this show make, nd they probably wouldn't have so much free time to dedicate to their geek hobbies (if they have any) or to hang out so much with their friends or girlfriends.

A real life Penny probably wouldn't be friends with nerdy guys or gals, much less likely to date one of them (more than once)

 

A real life scientist maybe won't be interested in pursuing a relationship with the girl of the likes of Penny (beyond physical attraction, perhaps)

 

However, all those things had happened and are true in their universe, and we can't disqualify them just because they don't "adjust to reality", same with the likelihood of the Shamy relationship.

 

Moonbase, it's also true that according with what I just said, the characters could have remained exactly the same for all the run of the series, and the "adhere to reality" excuse would be equally unnaceptable, because that would have been the intention of the creators, however, they have decided they wanted them to evolve.

 

Now, the question could be how much of that evolving is believable, or if they are doing their work in a way we can believe it.

 

Maybe ArDiem's and other's problem with this is, for their taste, they are not bein successful.

 

In my opinion, however. They are. With a few missteps, I think they are giving enough probability and congruency with the nature of the characters to make me believe their evolution as  natural progression.

 

Yes, Sheldon could had remained girlfriend-less forever, and there wouldn't be any problem with that (as long as the character didn't become stale), but they decided to involve him in a relationship, and in my humble appreciation, Amy is the closest thing to a perfect match for him, she makes sense to the nature of the character, embodies what we could assume would result attractive for the especific Sheldon character. Doesn't matter if, in real life, a relationship like them's wouldn't be possibly without the aid of heavy counseling. There are conflict in their relationship, yes, but conflict is necessary to trigger action. If they agreed in everything all the time, they could seem "happier", but there wouldn't be any story.

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Why are your posts so long-winded? :icon_eek:

You shamys are using the word love all the time and Sheldon has only gone as far as 'fond'. Why can't you just see whats there, instead or embellishing every little detail? You are ten steps ahead romantically then the actual characters.

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Guest I'm not dead Cheryl

Why are your posts so long-winded? :icon_eek:

You shamys are using the word love all the time and Sheldon has only gone as far as 'fond'. Why can't you just see whats there, instead or embellishing every little detail? You are ten steps ahead romantically then the actual characters.

 

why does the word "love" has to be so exclusive? I mean, there is no doubt that Sheldon loves Amy. He also loves Leonard, his mom, his sister, his meemaw, swordfish, hammer-head sharks, his spot. I don't see why is it so far fetched to say he loves Amy too.

 

oh, and the quote was "very fond" :p

Edited by Sursonica
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Why are your posts so long-winded? :icon_eek:

You shamys are using the word love all the time and Sheldon has only gone as far as 'fond'. Why can't you just see whats there, instead or embellishing every little detail? You are ten steps ahead romantically then the actual characters.

 

They are in LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. Anyone who has EVER been in love can see that. 

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Why are your posts so long-winded? :icon_eek:

You shamys are using the word love all the time and Sheldon has only gone as far as 'fond'. Why can't you just see whats there, instead or embellishing every little detail? You are ten steps ahead romantically then the actual characters.

 

Don't you have the attention span to follow?

 

And whether or not one labels Sheldon's current level of affection as fond or quite fond or love or whatever, I believe it is the writer's intent to take him all the way, so why not use the word?  You started off complaining about realistic/unrealistic, but now you're splitting hairs over "fond" versus "in love"?

If Sheldon didn't have romantic feelings for Amy--which essentially equates love, even if one is afraid to use the big L word--why the heck would he have asked her to be his girlfriend?  What's the point of having a girlfriend if you don't have such feelings?  I'm sure he was "fond" of her while they were just platonic friends, so what's the difference?

Why would he care if she was dating other people?  He's certainly not claiming her as his girlfriend for the right to have sex with her, so what is it?

 

Just because Sheldon is working through his issues and has a lot of issues to overcome doesn't mean he isn't in love with Amy, even if he can't say it.  Just as Penny was clearly in love with Leonard, but had a hard time using that very charged word.  For some people it's harder than for others, like Leonard.

 

Was that too many words?

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Don't you have the attention span to follow?

 

And whether or not one labels Sheldon's current level of affection as fond or quite fond or love or whatever, I believe it is the writer's intent to take him all the way, so why not use the word?  You started off complaining about realistic/unrealistic, but now you're splitting hairs over "fond" versus "in love"?

If Sheldon didn't have romantic feelings for Amy--which essentially equates love, even if one is afraid to use the big L word--why the heck would he have asked her to be his girlfriend?  What's the point of having a girlfriend if you don't have such feelings?  I'm sure he was "fond" of her while they were just platonic friends, so what's the difference?

Why would he care if she was dating other people?  He's certainly not claiming her as his girlfriend for the right to have sex with her, so what is it?

 

Just because Sheldon is working through his issues and has a lot of issues to overcome doesn't mean he isn't in love with Amy, even if he can't say it.  Just as Penny was clearly in love with Leonard, but had a hard time using that very charged word.  For some people it's harder than for others, like Leonard.

 

Was that too many words?

 

Too many words... do it again :icon_mrgreen:

 

I just don't find it convincing as some others.

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