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6.17 The Monster Isolation (Feb. 21)


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Sursonica did not get in the way of you commenting on the show.  What you are doing is commenting not on the show but on anyone who likes (certain parts of) the show.  You make it personal, which is not civil.  Please don't try to keep people from enjoying part of the show just because you disagree with it.  For heaven's sake, please be civil and stop turning every conversation into what's wrong with people who like the Sheldon/Amy relationship.  There are threads that are created for that conversation.  Please, can't this adjourn to one of those threads so that we may discuss the episode in this one?

 

 

Puh-leeze.  Do you think I haven't been told about some of the hateful comments made about me by some of the Shamys?  Not one time in this thread have I made anything personal.  I have gone out of my way to keep that from happening.   Besides, Sursonica knows how I really feel about her.  The reality is some of you want me to make it personal so you can dislike me simply for having an alternate view of a TV show.  I would point out again that I have been nothing but respectful to purely pro-Shamy threads.  If I was a true jerk I would spam them with my comments instead of letting the people there have fun.  Threads like these are open for everyone.

 

You are right.  It is fictional.  However if you try to cite real life examples of ways their relationship works it gives it additional credibility.

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I still don't understand--are you trying to say that she should just stay the same objectionable character? How can a fictional character "deserve" or "not deserve" progress? A character cannot "ear

in all fairnes though, he also said Ricky, the smoking monkey was remarkable  , so him saying that Penny is remarkable is consistent with his past remarks of calling Penny a "gorilla" and a "blonde mo

I try to not get into things like this, but no matter what you believe that gives you no right to say that it has to do with a character's appearance. I know plenty of people (including myself) who th

No hard feelings, but I don't really want to be brought into this (I already excused myself from it), but I do think a relationship like their's could work in real life, but only with people that were very far from average like Sheldon and Amy. Sometimes weird people need weird relationship. I've seen real life instances of this myself. But, yeah no one here is my parent. Plus, that won't really matter in less than 3 months. I really don't need protecting and I'm not easily influenced. 

Edited by howwerollintheshire
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I just watched the episode whilst not hopped up on pain pills, and I still dig it. Yay :)

 

Awesome!  What was your favorite part?  Mine was when Amy said to the monkeys, "That's right.  They're no good without the lighter."  Mayim's delivery there was perfect.

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Awesome! What was your favorite part? Mine was when Amy said to the monkeys, "That's right. They're no good without the lighter." Mayim's delivery there was perfect.

That part and Sheldon's interpretation of Penny's advice about body language in FwF.

My fave line was when Amy said: "Makes me miss my marijuana-abusing flatworms. Those guys were mellow."

Edited by AdorkablyMe

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My favorite line was either Amy's line about the flatworm, or Bernadette's line about "We can all go to Red Lobster and talk about it. What? We were all thinking it. I just had the decency to wait until he left the room." because that reminded me so much of myself. Also Lucy and Raj's whole conversation in the hall outside his apartment was golden. 

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-he is largely immature and self-centered: yes he is, but, to be honest, Amy is too.

 

Thinking about this , it would have been better if Amy had suggested that instead of going out on a date on valentine's day , they play counterfactuals or any other weird games which they both love and enjoy...

 

which would have made Amy look smart and self-centered but still it would touching enough for Sheldon.....moving their relationship forward...

 

But by suggesting that they stay and watch those stupid movies....she was not immature and self-centered....she was being highly mature and was not at all thinking about herself.....

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My favorite line was either Amy's line about the flatworm, or Bernadette's line about "We can all go to Red Lobster and talk about it. What? We were all thinking it. I just had the decency to wait until he left the room." because that reminded me so much of myself. Also Lucy and Raj's whole conversation in the hall outside his apartment was golden. 

 

The writers gave Mayim some good material to work with in this episode.  Sad we've probably seen the last of her on Skype yelling at the monkeys.  I haven't quite gotten sucked into the Lucy/Raj storyline yet, but I'm sure that will come in time.

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Logically the emergeny contact before Amy had to be Leonard, there is no chance it could be anyone else.

 

So if he replaced Leonard with Amy then it is not a big deal for Shledon.It was for Amy but that was never Sheldon's intention. Basically he lucked into a gift which made Amy happy for a little bit of time.

 

Amy is the female Leonard. And both of them are just pathetic with their brown nose attitude in their respective relationships.

Amy is in no way and by no means a female Leonard. Firstly, Leonard is much more able to find other relationships than Amy. Her: two very uncomfortable dates with Stewart. Leonard: Priya, Dr. Stephanie, Dr. Plimpton (briefly), Leslie Winkle, Joyce Kim, Alice (until he felt guilty about Priya), the one- off date with Bernie's gal- pal who was "absolutely hilarious", a wedding date with Amy herself, and then Penny. I'm likely missing one, for a geek with a bronchial inhaler, that Leonard sure gets around.

  Secondly, Amy is a lot more confused than Leonard. HE knows what he wants, he just doesn't know how to get it. Amy is all over the place. How long did SHE pine after Penny... I mean, most lesbians know they are such, then suddenly she wants Shellybean??!?!? Or is she asexual, or does she want Zach (Whoooooo??) Zach (Whoooooo?). Maybe she wants a penis. Or a really big missile. For the record, I think she was talking about penises. God, that girl is more confused than Raj. And that is saying a lot!

  Thirdly, Leonard can actually be the head of a group of friends, and he knows how to reconcile differences between friends, make allowances where applicable, but still stand firm (sometimes). Being firm against Sheldon is his Waterloo, but God speed, he tries, like the intervention he headed to get his roomie to go for his driver's license. Or the time he got him to join them at Will Wheaton's housewarming party to meet Brent Spiner. Amy, on the other hand, creeps out Penny with her sapphic advances, and routinely ridicules or outright scorns Bernadette (she once called her "Penny's cute in the right light friend"). She even mocks Leonard while he is on a date with her. Seriously, zero people skills. I actually think Sheldon has greater people skills than her, maybe because he's been exposed to Leonard and Penny longer?

  Finally, I suggest she go clothes shopping with someone who has a serious sense of fashion, mad people skills, and a penchant for watching Bridget Jone's Diary at 3 am. Namely, Raj. And his little dog, too. :icon_rolleyes:

Edited by Justin Christopher

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Amy still had to argue her case before Sheldon eventually changed him mind to care for her.  While I grant you that sometimes you do have to ask for help in a relationship if your partner doesn't see it you shouldn't have to prompt them for just about everything.

 

One episode with a reference to physical attraction during her experiment is pretty bleak considering they have been together for 2 years.   Very recently he didn't even understand why she was parading through his apartment when he chose to play D&D so whatever progress she made didn't seem to stick.

 

Your sister and BiL changed and compromised (like most couples do) to establish harmony in their relationship.  Amy is trying to change Sheldon so that he can be a full participant in their relationship.  What she wants is an affectionate boyfriend that treats her the way she desires to be treated.  In 2 years he still hates the idea of going out on a Valentine's date with her and he still insults her.

 

You don't tell a 17 year old girl (even a smart one) that this relationship is anywhere close to healthy.  It only works because it is fictional.  In the real world their relationship is depressing and sad.

You know, maybe in the end it's Amy who is going to have to change as the relationship continues. Maybe not so much a change in her manner or her personality, but in what she expects of Sheldon as a boyfriend.

Going back to my example of a woman who falls in live with a romance-impaired man, she may be able to tell her man that she wants flowers or something "romantic" on their anniversary or for Valentine's Day, but if it's not in his nature to think of such things on his own, she's going to have to either learn to live without such things (and maybe learn to receive his own expressions of affection) or deal with having to tell him what to do every time.

So maybe Amy has to learn to understand what Sheldon's limitations are, what his weaknesses and failings are, and understand how he expresses love or affection. It's not that she's settling or giving up her own desires. I mean, if she really loves him, hen she should be accepting of the totality of him.

That's not to say that Sheldon can't still grow up and learn to be a little more other-centered, but just that it may be that he's never going to be quite "normal".

Now, of course, Amy's not exactly "normal"' either, so it's not as if she can't understand Sheldon's predicament.

I think that her compromise on V-day was an interesting step toward understanding Sheldon and how to please him, and consequently allowing him to express himself in his own way.

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You know, maybe in the end it's Amy who is going to have to change as the relationship continues. Maybe not so much a change in her manner or her personality, but in what she expects of Sheldon as a boyfriend.

Going back to my example of a woman who falls in live with a romance-impaired man, she may be able to tell her man that she wants flowers or something "romantic" on their anniversary or for Valentine's Day, but if it's not in his nature to think of such things on his own, she's going to have to either learn to live without such things (and maybe learn to receive his own expressions of affection) or deal with having to tell him what to do every time.

So maybe Amy has to learn to understand what Sheldon's limitations are, what his weaknesses and failings are, and understand how he expresses love or affection. It's not that she's settling or giving up her own desires. I mean, if she really loves him, hen she should be accepting of the totality of him.

That's not to say that Sheldon can't still grow up and learn to be a little more other-centered, but just that it may be that he's never going to be quite "normal".

Now, of course, Amy's not exactly "normal"' either, so it's not as if she can't understand Sheldon's predicament.

I think that her compromise on V-day was an interesting step toward understanding Sheldon and how to please him, and consequently allowing him to express himself in his own way.

 

 

What was the purpose in changing Amy in the first place then?  She was absolutely perfect for Sheldon as she was.   Also, you may say it is not settling but what you described is the very definition of settling.  

 

Why is it okay for Sheldon to give her what he will be eventually comfortable of giving her and she has to live with whatever that is?  Why doesn't she deserve to get what she wants?   

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Guest I'm not dead Cheryl

What was the purpose in changing Amy in the first place then?  She was absolutely perfect for Sheldon as she was.   Also, you may say it is not settling but what you described is the very definition of settling.  

 

Why is it okay for Sheldon to give her what he will be eventually comfortable of giving her and she has to live with whatever that is?  Why doesn't she deserve to get what she wants?   

 

the answer is simple: she wants Sheldon

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Amy is in no way and by no means a female Leonard. Firstly, Leonard is much more able to find other relationships than Amy. Her: two very uncomfortable dates with Stewart. Leonard: Priya, Dr. Stephanie, Dr. Plimpton (briefly), Leslie Winkle, Joyce Kim, Alice (until he felt guilty about Priya), the one- off date with Bernie's gal- pal who was "absolutely hilarious", a wedding date with Amy herself, and then Penny. I'm likely missing one, for a geek with a bronchial inhaler, that Leonard sure gets around.

  Secondly, Amy is a lot more confused than Leonard. HE knows what he wants, he just doesn't know how to get it. Amy is all over the place. How long did SHE pine after Penny... I mean, most lesbians know they are such, then suddenly she wants Shellybean??!?!? Or is she asexual, or does she want Zach (Whoooooo??) Zach (Whoooooo?). Maybe she wants a penis. Or a really big missile. For the record, I think she was talking about penises. God, that girl is more confused than Raj. And that is saying a lot!

  Thirdly, Leonard can actually be the head of a group of friends, and he knows how to reconcile differences between friends, make allowances where applicable, but still stand firm (sometimes). Being firm against Sheldon is his Waterloo, but God speed, he tries, like the intervention he headed to get his roomie to go for his driver's license. Or the time he got him to join them at Will Wheaton's housewarming party to meet Brent Spiner. Amy, on the other hand, creeps out Penny with her sapphic advances, and routinely ridicules or outright scorns Bernadette (she once called her "Penny's cute in the right light friend"). She even mocks Leonard while he is on a date with her. Seriously, zero people skills. I actually think Sheldon has greater people skills than her, maybe because he's been exposed to Leonard and Penny longer?

  Finally, I suggest she go clothes shopping with someone who has a serious sense of fashion, mad people skills, and a penchant for watching Bridget Jone's Diary at 3 am. Namely, Raj. And his little do, too. :icon_rolleyes:

I was wondering if you have seen any of the episodes this season?  Amy doesn't really pine over Penny, in fact she doesn't seem confused at all in what she wants.

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the answer is simple: she wants Sheldon

 

 

No she doesn't. If she wanted Sheldon she wouldn't be trying to change him into a compatible mate. She wants romance with Sheldon giving it.

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Guest I'm not dead Cheryl

No she doesn't. If she wanted Sheldon she wouldn't be trying to change him into a compatible mate. She wants romance with Sheldon giving it.

 

that's the thing, for me, I don't think she wants to "change" him. She has said numerous times how much she likes the quirks other people hates about him.

 

IMO she is not trying to change him, she wants him to give her more, she wants more of him, and I don't think that is the same as "wanting to change him".

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that's the thing, for me, I don't think she wants to "change" him. She has said numerous times how much she likes the quirks other people hates about him.

 

IMO she is not trying to change him, she wants him to give her more, she wants more of him, and I don't think that is the same as "wanting to change him".

 

 

lol.  Now you are trying to split hairs.   She wants romance.  He gives it in extremely short supply.  He needs to give more.  He needs to change what he is doing.  By his own words he is working on giving her a physical relationship.  That is him changing from one state to another.

 

Yes, she is trying to change him because she is no longer the Sheldon-like version of Amy which makes them romantically incompatible.

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What was the purpose in changing Amy in the first place then?  She was absolutely perfect for Sheldon as she was.   Also, you may say it is not settling but what you described is the very definition of settling.  

 

Why is it okay for Sheldon to give her what he will be eventually comfortable of giving her and she has to live with whatever that is?  Why doesn't she deserve to get what she wants?   

 

I think that the first few glimpses we had of Amy are very much like the Sheldon we saw in the Pilot--not yet fully formed.

One could argue that she changed from the robotic "female Sheldon" of her first few episodes, who claimed to find romantic relationships to be pointless, into the person we're seeing now because for the first time she encountered a person who made her change her mind about the point of romantic relationships.

 

But I think that what we saw of her changing in the 4th and 5th season was a combination of the mechanics of the series--the writers getting a better idea of who they wanted her to be as a character, just like they did with the guys, and especially Sheldon, over the course of the early episodes of the 1st season--and the unfolding of her relationship with Sheldon as it went from purely platonic to romantic.

 

Settling is acknowledging that this person isn't what you really want, but he's the person at hand, so you make do with what you have.

 

But in her case I think that Sheldon is indeed what she really wants, it's just that he's not perfect, because no one is perfect.  If she had in mind some idealized image of a boyfriend out of the movies or romance novels or whatever, well, she's never going to find that.  But if everything else about Sheldon is who and what she wants--intelligent like herself, quirky in a way that only she can appreciate, physically attractive to her tastes (tall and lanky, with pale, waxy skin, etc.)--then perhaps she can learn to deal with his shortcomings.

For Sheldon, she's ideal in almost every way as well, but she doesn't share his enthusiasm for sci-fi and comic books.  That doesn't mean that he's settling in accepting that aspect of her.

 

So, maybe she can help Sheldon learn to express himself better, or maybe he'll always be impaired to some degree when it comes to romance and such things.  Maybe Sheldon can get Amy to enjoy a Star Trek episode or movie, or maybe she'll never get into it.

But if those things are not deal-breakers for either of them, and everything else is compatible and enjoyable to them, then they'll be happy.

 

If Sheldon is wanting to work on his physical issues, perhaps it's because he wants to be able to physically express his love to her, and/or that he knows that that's what she wants as well.  And perhaps Amy, knowing about his touch issues (she was very careful to ask him if it would be okay to hug him in the C/K episode), understands that it will take a while for him to be able to get fully involved physically.  If she understands his weaknesses or whatever you want to call them, but is willing to be patient and deal with it all, then I think that's more about love than about "settling."

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Guest I'm not dead Cheryl

lol.  Now you are trying to split hairs.   She wants romance.  He gives it in extremely short supply.  He needs to give more.  He needs to change what he is doing.  By his own words he is working on giving her a physical relationship.  That is him changing from one state to another.

 

Yes, she is trying to change him because she is no longer the Sheldon-like version of Amy which makes them romantically incompatible.

 

if she wanted just romance for the sake of romance she would have stayed with Stuart, or Leonard would have gotten her motor running, or even gone with Raj when he showed interest. Again, IMO, she wants Sheldon, and the romance she wants is from Sheldon.

 

I guess our main disagreement seems to be that I don't consider he wanting more of him is her wanting to "change" him. To me, that is just "wanting more" not wanting something different. And the Valentine's Day episode was a good example actually. If she was all for the "romance" she would have gone ahead with her romantic dinner plans, but she didn't. That, again, to me, shows that she is interested in Sheldon himself, and not into turning him into someone else. He is already a compatible mate, but, he is differnt to her, therefore there are adjustments that need to be made. Adjusting is not changing. again, IMO.

 

Let's just agree to disagree, we obviously see this in a very different light.

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I think that the first few glimpses we had of Amy are very much like the Sheldon we saw in the Pilot--not yet fully formed.

One could argue that she changed from the robotic "female Sheldon" of her first few episodes, who claimed to find romantic relationships to be pointless, into the person we're seeing now because for the first time she encountered a person who made her change her mind about the point of romantic relationships.

 

But I think that what we saw of her changing in the 4th and 5th season was a combination of the mechanics of the series--the writers getting a better idea of who they wanted her to be as a character, just like they did with the guys, and especially Sheldon, over the course of the early episodes of the 1st season--and the unfolding of her relationship with Sheldon as it went from purely platonic to romantic.

 

Settling is acknowledging that this person isn't what you really want, but he's the person at hand, so you make do with what you have.

 

But in her case I think that Sheldon is indeed what she really wants, it's just that he's not perfect, because no one is perfect.  If she had in mind some idealized image of a boyfriend out of the movies or romance novels or whatever, well, she's never going to find that.  But if everything else about Sheldon is who and what she wants--intelligent like herself, quirky in a way that only she can appreciate, physically attractive to her tastes (tall and lanky, with pale, waxy skin, etc.)--then perhaps she can learn to deal with his shortcomings.

For Sheldon, she's ideal in almost every way as well, but she doesn't share his enthusiasm for sci-fi and comic books.  That doesn't mean that he's settling in accepting that aspect of her.

 

So, maybe she can help Sheldon learn to express himself better, or maybe he'll always be impaired to some degree when it comes to romance and such things.  Maybe Sheldon can get Amy to enjoy a Star Trek episode or movie, or maybe she'll never get into it.

But if those things are not deal-breakers for either of them, and everything else is compatible and enjoyable to them, then they'll be happy.

 

If Sheldon is wanting to work on his physical issues, perhaps it's because he wants to be able to physically express his love to her, and/or that he knows that that's what she wants as well.  And perhaps Amy, knowing about his touch issues (she was very careful to ask him if it would be okay to hug him in the C/K episode), understands that it will take a while for him to be able to get fully involved physically.  If she understands his weaknesses or whatever you want to call them, but is willing to be patient and deal with it all, then I think that's more about love than about "settling."

 

 

The problem with all of this is that they are fictional characters so why it ok for Amy to settle in a fictional world?  What makes him more important than her? 

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if she wanted just romance for the sake of romance she would have stayed with Stuart, or Leonard would have gotten her motor running, or even gone with Raj when he showed interest. Again, IMO, she wants Sheldon, and the romance she wants is from Sheldon.

 

I guess our main disagreement seems to be that I don't consider he wanting more of him is her wanting to "change" him. To me, that is just "wanting more" not wanting something different. And the Valentine's Day episode was a good example actually. If she was all for the "romance" she would have gone ahead with her romantic dinner plans, but she didn't. That, again, to me, shows that she is interested in Sheldon himself, and not into turning him into someone else. He is already a compatible mate, but, he is differnt to her, therefore there are adjustments that need to be made. Adjusting is not changing. again, IMO.

 

Let's just agree to disagree, we obviously see this in a very different light.

 

 

I don't think we see it that differently you are just trying to spin it but I am ok with agreeing to disagreeing.  :)

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I don't see it as Amy 'settling' or Sheldon being more important at all. It's not a one-sided thing. Clearly Sheldon is being drawn out of his comfort zone, too, he's having to make significant efforts for this relationship, which must be doubly hard for someone as rigid as he is.

 

Like in most relationships, they're both having to give, in some ways - Amy by being patient about the physical aspect, Sheldon by trying to work on that aspect and also by learning to behave in more caring, unselfish ways with her than he's used to in general (taking care of her when she's sick, standing up to a friend to defend her, compromising on a costume). 

 

Like in most good relationships, they've both realized they're not perfectly matched by having everything in common (even 'season 4' Amy didn't agree on everything with Sheldon - she disliked cheap science fiction). But they're still well-matched in more ways than not, they understand each other and share a special connection, and both of them are willing and happy to stay and work it out. That's why they're together.

Edited by Pomita

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Amy is being patient and Sheldon is learning.

 

This sums up everything I am trying to say. Wouldn't it just turn the TBBT world on it's head if an issue came along where Sheldon had to be patient, and Amy had to learn. Then it would be two-sided. I would love that.

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The problem with all of this is that they are fictional characters so why it ok for Amy to settle in a fictional world?  What makes him more important than her? 

 

You can't have it both ways--if she's a fictional character, then her development is what is written and her acceptance of Sheldon is as it is written.  One can infer from her various statements, like the bit about Sheldon letting his hair grow out and riding a horse bareback and barechested, that she has this idealized, romance-novel idea of what is sexy or romantic, but one can also infer from her various statements about SHeldon, that she does indeed find him to be the ideal boyfriend, for her.

 

That doesn't mean that she might not want to tweak certain things, or teach him certain things, or get him to open up.  That's part of the story that is being told.

 

But even in the real world, someone like Amy can love everything about someone like Sheldon and still want to help him grow, grow up, open up, etc.  A lot of couples find each other perfect, except for certain things--the guy walks around the house in his ratty underwear, she hates the football games he loves to watch, he hates the movies she wants to go see.  But he may learn to put on clothes when he walks around the house, or maybe she's okay with the underwear as long as it's new and clean, and maybe she helps him host some football parties with for his friends, even if she and the other women go in the other room and talk, and maybe he goes along to the movies and even cries, but won't admit to it.

 

Whatever.  The point is that everyone must compromise, as you and I have already said.

I think that the reason Amy may have to do more compromising is that she's the more grown up, the more socially aware (though not by much), the more "normal", for lack of a better word.

If she's better at the social conventions than he is, or she knows a little bit more (perhaps) about being in a bf/gf relationship than he does, then it's easier for her to navigate the oddities of their relationship.

Sheldon does have a lot of growing up to do, but he obviously wants to be in a relationship with Amy because he's the one who started it and he's willing to work on his issues.  And Amy wants the relationship, too, and is willing to deal with Sheldon's quirks because she loves him.

 

That sort of thing can be true in real life or in fiction.  And in fiction, while the writers have the burden of showing why and how a thing should be, the motivations and behaviors they give the characters are the truth for those characters.  So if the writers say that Amy loves Sheldon and is willing to help him grow and open up, and if they say that Sheldon loves Amy and is trying to overcome some of his issues, but that they both love each other in spite of whatever shortcomings they may find in each other, then that is the truth for them.

 

You can't try to compare them to real life and say "Their relationship isn't realistic", and then turn around and say, "They're fictional characters so they should be written this way (or that way)"--as in Amy should be the one to change, or Sheldon should be the one to change, or whatever.

 

They're obviously fictional characters, so some aspects of their personalities may be exaggerated, some aspects of their lives may be fantastical, some aspects may be idealized or whatever.  But since their story is fiction, then they are who and what the writers say they are and their story unfolds the way the writers see fit--so if they want Sheldon to be the one who changes, they'll get him there, or if it's Amy that they want to change, then they'll show her changing.

 

I don't know for sure which of them will end up growing or changing the most in the long run.  Obviously they're having SHeldon move forward incrementally in his relationship with Amy, but they're also showing that Amy is okay with his progress and is even developing more understanding of what it is that makes him happy, and how to work with that within her own happiness.  In the V-Day ep--would she rather have an uncomfortable Sheldon who is going along with the whole romantic dinner date and gift-giving only because he knows that's what she wants, or would she rather spend time with a happy Sheldon who is pleased with the evening?  If he's truly happy with the evening, maybe she'll end up being happier than she would have been if she'd forced him to go on the dinner date out.

 

She acknowledged that her plans were selfish in that she was asking him to do all the things she wanted to do without considering what it is he might like to do.  And to his credit, Sheldon was willing to go along with it to please her, even though he didn't want to.  He even practiced a happy face in order to try to seem to enjoy it.  He wasn't the one to suggest they stay home and do what he wanted to do.

 

But in the end, the fact that she chooses to try to make him happy is the story that the writers are telling.  Whatever someone in the real world might have done or felt is irrelevant.  She is who she is written to be and she reacts accordingly.  And if the writers write that she is happy, then it's impossible to insist that she cannot be happy.

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Do any of your posts come in audiobook format?  :p

 

I am going to come back to this a little later.  Part of my post was supposed to be in context of your post only not in the debate as a whole.

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I think sheldon and amy might be the most realistic couple on the entire show. the fact that any women could put up with howard is kinda ridiculous, and if the show wanted to stay realistic a real life penny would never date a real life leonard, she likes "macho" type guys and every time they feminize leonard for laughs it is more and more unrealistic

Edited by Jennafred29

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