Episodes 6.17 The Monster Isolation (Feb. 21)

[Pomita]

Amy is being patient and Sheldon is learning.

 

This sums up everything I am trying to say. Wouldn't it just turn the TBBT world on it's head if an issue came along where Sheldon had to be patient, and Amy had to learn. Then it would be two-sided. I would love that.

 

Amy is being patient and Sheldon is learning about the physical aspect, which is just one thing in their relationship. There are many other aspects in which they're fully satisfied with each other (like their mental connection), and there are aspects in which Sheldon is being patient and Amy is learning (like understanding some of his quirks which they don't have in common, e.g. his love for comic books and sci-fi). It's as two-sided as it gets.

 

(Certainly more two-sided than Leonard/Penny, I would say, in which it has been mostly Penny expecting Leonard to do things for her, up till recently. Thankfully that dynamics has changed a little, of late).

Edited February 27, 2013 by Pomita

[phantagrae]

I think sheldon and amy might be the most realistic couple on the entire show. the fact that any women could put up with howard is kinda ridiculous, and if the show wanted to stay realistic a real life penny would never date a real life leonard, she likes "macho" type guys and every time they feminize leonard for laughs it is more and more unrealistic

 

I think the point of the Leonard/Penny relationship is that she finds herself attracted to a guy who is pretty much the polar opposite of the guys she's been dating before.  Everything she thought she wanted in a guy--the tall, macho, good-looking party animal, whatever--hasn't ever quite satisfied her.

But she meets this nice little nerdy guy, who isn't tall, isn't macho, isn't all that handsome (though he's no ogre) and isn't a party animal, and he turns out to be all the things she was missing and didn't know--he's loyal, caring, affectionate, patient, helpful, etc.

 

Maybe she was "looking for love in all the wrong places" and she finally figured it out.

[AdorkablyMe]

Being blinded by love can make a person do all kinds of things that seem ridic. Awww <3

[tmp]

I think the point of the Leonard/Penny relationship is that she finds herself attracted to a guy who is pretty much the polar opposite of the guys she's been dating before.  Everything she thought she wanted in a guy--the tall, macho, good-looking party animal, whatever--hasn't ever quite satisfied her.

But she meets this nice little nerdy guy, who isn't tall, isn't macho, isn't all that handsome (though he's no ogre) and isn't a party animal, and he turns out to be all the things she was missing and didn't know--he's loyal, caring, affectionate, patient, helpful, etc.

 

Maybe she was "looking for love in all the wrong places" and she finally figured it out.

 

But she has had a little bit of trouble letting go of the pull of those guys, which I think is why she has had a hard time committing to Leonard.  That's her immaturity.  Ironically, she chided Howard for the same immaturity when he started dating Bernie.

[Ar Diem]

You can't have it both ways--if she's a fictional character, then her development is what is written and her acceptance of Sheldon is as it is written.  One can infer from her various statements, like the bit about Sheldon letting his hair grow out and riding a horse bareback and barechested, that she has this idealized, romance-novel idea of what is sexy or romantic, but one can also infer from her various statements about SHeldon, that she does indeed find him to be the ideal boyfriend, for her.

 

That doesn't mean that she might not want to tweak certain things, or teach him certain things, or get him to open up.  That's part of the story that is being told.

 

But even in the real world, someone like Amy can love everything about someone like Sheldon and still want to help him grow, grow up, open up, etc.  A lot of couples find each other perfect, except for certain things--the guy walks around the house in his ratty underwear, she hates the football games he loves to watch, he hates the movies she wants to go see.  But he may learn to put on clothes when he walks around the house, or maybe she's okay with the underwear as long as it's new and clean, and maybe she helps him host some football parties with for his friends, even if she and the other women go in the other room and talk, and maybe he goes along to the movies and even cries, but won't admit to it.

 

Whatever.  The point is that everyone must compromise, as you and I have already said.

I think that the reason Amy may have to do more compromising is that she's the more grown up, the more socially aware (though not by much), the more "normal", for lack of a better word.

If she's better at the social conventions than he is, or she knows a little bit more (perhaps) about being in a bf/gf relationship than he does, then it's easier for her to navigate the oddities of their relationship.

Sheldon does have a lot of growing up to do, but he obviously wants to be in a relationship with Amy because he's the one who started it and he's willing to work on his issues.  And Amy wants the relationship, too, and is willing to deal with Sheldon's quirks because she loves him.

 

That sort of thing can be true in real life or in fiction.  And in fiction, while the writers have the burden of showing why and how a thing should be, the motivations and behaviors they give the characters are the truth for those characters.  So if the writers say that Amy loves Sheldon and is willing to help him grow and open up, and if they say that Sheldon loves Amy and is trying to overcome some of his issues, but that they both love each other in spite of whatever shortcomings they may find in each other, then that is the truth for them.

 

You can't try to compare them to real life and say "Their relationship isn't realistic", and then turn around and say, "They're fictional characters so they should be written this way (or that way)"--as in Amy should be the one to change, or Sheldon should be the one to change, or whatever.

 

They're obviously fictional characters, so some aspects of their personalities may be exaggerated, some aspects of their lives may be fantastical, some aspects may be idealized or whatever.  But since their story is fiction, then they are who and what the writers say they are and their story unfolds the way the writers see fit--so if they want Sheldon to be the one who changes, they'll get him there, or if it's Amy that they want to change, then they'll show her changing.

 

I don't know for sure which of them will end up growing or changing the most in the long run.  Obviously they're having SHeldon move forward incrementally in his relationship with Amy, but they're also showing that Amy is okay with his progress and is even developing more understanding of what it is that makes him happy, and how to work with that within her own happiness.  In the V-Day ep--would she rather have an uncomfortable Sheldon who is going along with the whole romantic dinner date and gift-giving only because he knows that's what she wants, or would she rather spend time with a happy Sheldon who is pleased with the evening?  If he's truly happy with the evening, maybe she'll end up being happier than she would have been if she'd forced him to go on the dinner date out.

 

She acknowledged that her plans were selfish in that she was asking him to do all the things she wanted to do without considering what it is he might like to do.  And to his credit, Sheldon was willing to go along with it to please her, even though he didn't want to.  He even practiced a happy face in order to try to seem to enjoy it.  He wasn't the one to suggest they stay home and do what he wanted to do.

 

But in the end, the fact that she chooses to try to make him happy is the story that the writers are telling.  Whatever someone in the real world might have done or felt is irrelevant.  She is who she is written to be and she reacts accordingly.  And if the writers write that she is happy, then it's impossible to insist that she cannot be happy.

 

 

So my actual question about them being fictional characters was asking you specifically why you think it is okay for her to settle when in a fictional world she could have whatever she wants?  What makes her needs and wants take a backseat to his?

 

To most of the rest of your post I really can't meet you where you want me to.  Shedding some bad habits, learning to compromise on issues, and even changing inside a relationship doesn't extend to teaching your partner how to be partner in just about every sense or waiting for your partner to change in some very large ways.  In the real world two people that incompatible do not stay together and if they do, one or both are miserable.

 

Leonard and Penny have changed and continue to change but they each understood and were capable of romance from the beginning.  They were compatible because they were able to communicate their feelings in ways they each could understand.  Leonard may not be completely satisfied yet but he is not waiting on her to learn how to be romantic.

 

I think I understand the appeal of Amy loyally staying by his side while she helps him navigate these new feelings while courageously putting what she wants on the back burner in the name of love.   I just can't get past the fact that it is an abusive relationship.  They can make her act like it doesn't matter and they can pipe in the canned laughter but it bothers me.  It bothers me when he goes too far with the others too but you are never more vulnerable than you are in a relationship.

[Justin Christopher]

I was wondering if you have seen any of the episodes this season?  Amy doesn't really pine over Penny, in fact she doesn't seem confused at all in what she wants.

Any? Listen, I OWN the first 4 seasons on DVD. Season 5... well, all but 2 episodes downloaded on Hulu (I have to get the Wiggly Finger Catalyst and the Infestation Something- something). As for THIS season, my boss and I both watch this show, I have to work a little while it is on as I work nights, but it's usually quiet enough. Plus, I catch up the next day on CBS.com, so YES I have watched each and EVERY episode EVER made with the exception of the UNAIRED PILOT, and believe you me, I'll find that too! Right after I find the Lost Ark of the Covenant to use as a footstool while I bask in all the Katie and Gilda in the cramped, grimy apartment wonderment of the ONE BBT episode I haven't yet seen multiple times.

  Just because the writers laid off one of Amy's annoying traits for a few episodes doesn't wash the bad taste of the last 2 seasons out of my mouth, sorry. I love the show, I loathe the character. And for the record, I like the actress (Mayim Bialik before you accuse me of not knowing her name) just fine, I know she's a talented, smart woman. I will never get that character, and I think I'll lay the blame on the writers for that.

[phantagrae]

So my actual question about them being fictional characters was asking you specifically why you think it is okay for her to settle when in a fictional world she could have whatever she wants?  What makes her needs and wants take a backseat to his?

What I'm saying is that in their fictional world, what the writers say she wants is what she actually wants. If the writers say that she is not "settling", then she isn't. She can't have whatever she wants because as a fictional character, she wants what the writers say she wants.

If they say that she wants Sheldon more than she wants fairytales, then that's what she wants. And if they write that she is willing and happy to wait for Sheldon to learn how to be a boyfriend, then that's what she's willing and happy to do.

 

To most of the rest of your post I really can't meet you where you want me to.  Shedding some bad habits, learning to compromise on issues, and even changing inside a relationship doesn't extend to teaching your partner how to be partner in just about every sense or waiting for your partner to change in some very large ways.  In the real world two people that incompatible do not stay together and if they do, one or both are miserable.

Well, again, are they fictional characters or are they in the real world?

And really, I don't think that Amy is having to teach him everything. She has been happy with him in many ways over the years that have been friends as well as bf/gf. They have a fairly normal relationship--hanging out, talking about their work, eating together, making up games together, etc.

I don't think they are at all incompatible. I don't know where one would get that idea. Though they may disagree on things like the entertainment value of sci-fi or comic books or harp music, they are more compatible than not.

Just because he has issues to overcome before he can be physically expressive, that doesn't mean they're incompatible.

Again, as fictional characters, if the writers show that she is happy with him, and I think they do, then that's the truth about their relationship.

 

Leonard and Penny have changed and continue to change but they each understood and were capable of romance from the beginning.  They were compatible because they were able to communicate their feelings in ways they each could understand.  Leonard may not be completely satisfied yet but he is not waiting on her to learn how to be romantic.

Oh, but waiting on her to figure out if she loves him or is willing to commit to him is okay?

In many ways they have not communicated well and has avoided discussing her issues by simply hopping in the sack with him, shushing him with sex.

And while they've been friends, they've also slept with other people and miscommunicated with Penny kind of yanking him around in some ways.

Now, I love L/P together and I think they are meant for each other and will live happily ever after together. But that doesn't mean that their relationship is any more adult than S/A, who started out as friends and have since become bf/gf without all the sturm und drang.

Whatever bumps they've had have not been major obstacles to their relationship.

 

I think I understand the appeal of Amy loyally staying by his side while she helps him navigate these new feelings while courageously putting what she wants on the back burner in the name of love.   I just can't get past the fact that it is an abusive relationship.  They can make her act like it doesn't matter and they can pipe in the canned laughter but it bothers me.  It bothers me when he goes too far with the others too but you are never more vulnerable than you are in a relationship.

How is the relationship abusive? How is he abusing her or what is she putting in the back burner? Physical affection? She's going slowly herself and doesn't seem to mind. AGAIN, if the writers say that he slow pace is okay with her, then that's the kind of person she is. She's not unhappy, so why do you imagine that she is?

He's also in the relationship and is also vulnerable. He worries that he isn't a good enough boyfriend for her at times and he apparently wants to make progress with his issues, apparently for her sake.

Of course the reason he's making such slow progress is of course for the sake of the timing of the show, because it's not real life.

And I'm going to ignore your "canned laughter" remark because you know better. If the audience finds it funny, then the show is doing its job.

[Moonbase]

What I'm saying is that in their fictional world, what the writers say she wants is what she actually wants. If the writers say that she is not "settling", then she isn't. She can't have whatever she wants because as a fictional character, she wants what the writers say she wants.

If they say that she wants Sheldon more than she wants fairytales, then that's what she wants. And if they write that she is willing and happy to wait for Sheldon to learn how to be a boyfriend, then that's what she's willing and happy to do.

 

She's yelled at him several times in frustration. She's threatened to walk away. She's told Penny he was a jerk. She may watch films with him but then she makes insulting remarks about his collectables. She's just pushing her own needs back, to get what she wants.

 

Well, again, are they fictional characters or are they in the real world?

And really, I don't think that Amy is having to teach him everything. She has been happy with him in many ways over the years that have been friends as well as bf/gf. They have a fairly normal relationship--hanging out, talking about their work, eating together, making up games together, etc.

I don't think they are at all incompatible. I don't know where one would get that idea. Though they may disagree on things like the entertainment value of sci-fi or comic books or harp music, they are more compatible than not.

Just because he has issues to overcome before he can be physically expressive, that doesn't mean they're incompatible.

Again, as fictional characters, if the writers show that she is happy with him, and I think they do, then that's the truth about their relationship.

 

SHE has issues to overcome. I can't see how someone who could barely negotiate her own social life and is suddenly so qualified to help him thorough this massive problem. Its such a stretch.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Moonbase

[AdorkablyMe]

Fascinating.

[Ar Diem]

@Phantagrae

 

You still didn't answer the question.  When you paint a possible picture of their future you have Amy settling.  Since that future has not been written yet by anyone why are you so comfortable with the notion of her settling when in a fictional world she could get what she wants?  What makes him more important than her?

 

Since I know you have to know there are more ways to express love without actually saying it, it still makes L/P compatible mates.   There has never been a time when Penny had to learn how to love or express love.

 

The VD episode clearly pointed out that S/A are still incompatible romantically.  Her idea of a romantic evening was something he was willing to tolerate and pretend to enjoy... and this after 2 years.  Then he proceeds to verbally abuse her by telling her that the hug was ruining VD.  So whatever work he is doing on his physical hangups has not yet translated into tolerating a hug unless he wants it.

 

There are 3 main motivators inside any relationship.  You do something because you like it, you do something because your partner likes it and it makes you happy to make them happy, or you do something to avoid conflict.  In a compatible relationship those should be in order of how much they represent of your interactions with your partner.  The majority of things you do that you like should also be things your partner likes.   The second interaction usually requires some change or education on your part.  The third is usually the dumb stuff like picking up your socks.

 

What Sheldon likes is a near platonic companionship.  This would not be a problem if Amy wanted the same thing.  The bigger problem is that something like a VD dinner doesn't even make him happy to make her happy.  He agrees to it to avoid conflict.  How satisfying would it be for you to be on a date with someone who equates it to a chore like picking up his/her socks?

 

You are right though.  Because this is a fictional relationship they can make it work... but that is the only reason. 

[phantagrae]

@Phantagrae

 

You still didn't answer the question.  When you paint a possible picture of their future you have Amy settling.  Since that future has not been written yet by anyone why are you so comfortable with the notion of her settling when in a fictional world she could get what she wants?  What makes him more important than her?

[Moonbase]

You are assuming that she's not getting what she wants.  Or that she should have a different timetable--one that you think is more "realistic".

What I'm saying is that although we obviously don't see exactly how the future will play out, what we do see is that she is written in such a way that she is happy with her relationship with Sheldon, from which one can extrapolate that she isn't as frustrated as some viewers insist on saying she is and that she seems to believe that she will indeed get what she wants.

 

What we're seeing is that if she is indeed putting something she wants on the back burner, she's doing so because she wants to, because she's patient enough to wait for it, because what we're seeing is a person who is happy in the relationship.  So if she's happy, then where is all of this supposed "She's not getting what she wants" business coming from?

 

As for Sheldon being more important than her--who says that he is?  If she feels secure in her relationship, but knows that he needs to grow, maybe she feels mature enough to wait for him to catch up to her.  I don't see it as his needs being more important than hers as much as it is that his weaknesses are deeper than hers.

 

If they were starting out on a journey, walking down the road together, and he had an injured leg, should she leave him behind, or slow down and walk with him and help him until his leg is healed and he can keep up with her or even lead her?

If she loves him, which everything points to being true, then she'll help him limp along until he can go forward under his own steam.

 

How is that verbal abuse?  First of all, it was obviously a joke (mechanics of the show), but also, it's not as if he was pushing her away.  She knows he finds hugs (physical contact) uncomfortable--so maybe she's physically abusing him by forcing one on him?  If you're going to use every tiny thing as evidence of abuse, then why not put the shoe on the other foot?

 

Her idea of a romantic evening was selfish--as she said.  She wanted the cliche romantic evening, because that's what she assumes equals romance--dinner date, exchange of VD gifts, etc.  Just like she pictured Sheldon with long hair, bare-chested, riding bare-back on a horse, like the cover of a romance novel.  Where the he** would she find that in real life?  Again, it's like a woman married to a man who loves country/western music expecting him to take her to the opera for VD.  She might be able to twist his arm into complying, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have to pretend to enjoy it, for her sake.

That wouldn't mean that they were incompatible in every other way, just in their idea of what constitutes a romantic evening.  Maybe he would rather have spent the evening boot-scooting with her at the local C/W bar or something.  And maybe if she went along with his idea she might be happier because he would be happier and be happy spending that time with her.

 

If you know what makes your SO happy, you do what makes them happy--so Sheldon was willing to try to enjoy an evening he knew he wasn't going to enjoy by doing what she wanted to try to make her happy, and she was willing to try to enjoy an evening that wasn't her ideal romantic evening because she knew it would make him happy.  And we don't know that Amy wouldn't have been happy with their evening if they had gone through with the dinner date.  She would have gotten what she wanted--a date out with her boyfriend at a fancy restaurant, and she still would have gotten the gift that he gave her that she found so moving.  And Sheldon was willing to put her needs ahead of his, even if it would have been hard for him.

He just lucked out that she decided to let go of what she wanted.

 

Maybe they're still figuring out how to please each other, but if they're both willing to do what the other one wants, even on occasions where they don't see eye-to-eye, then how are they incompatible?

 

 

 

I think that Sheldon and Amy do do things they both like--they spend a lot of time together, apparently, and have spent that time talking about their individual work, (and though Sheldon may have stumbled over that situation in the Shiny Trinket episode, he seems to have gotten past that and is genuinely interested in what she does), doing stuff like FWF and other quirky things that they both enjoy.  The VD evening was an example of your second point--being willing to do something becasue the other likes it and they were both willing to make the other happy.  If Sheldon hadn't wanted to make her happy, he wouldn't have agreed to go along with it for her sake.  He could have simply refused.

Sheldon's idea of a bf/gf relationship is still somewhat stunted and naive, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't want more--he is working on his issues presumably for the sake of his relationship with Amy and he is okay with touching her and letting her touch him moreso than with anyone else.  He may not find holding hands to be enjoyable--again, because of his touch issues, not because he doesn't like Amy--but he agrees to it and though he loves to gripe and protest, he doesn't pull away.  And now he's letting her hug him, even though it's hard for him.

And I think that one must keep in mind that his issues are psychological or OCD or whatever, not that he doesn't love her.

 

We don't quite know the level of desire he may have for her that he may simply have difficulty expressing physically.  But he does know how to please her in a way that only she would appreciate, which means that he has some deeper understanding of who she is, which may be why she's willing to wait for him to catch up in other ways.

Even something like that tiara--while on the outside it may seem like "too much", from Penny's point of view, for instance (too big, expensive, outlandish for a simple make-up present), he somehow knew that it was the right thing.  And while he commented that it was too much at the end, again mostly a feeble protest (and the punchline of the scene), it was still exactly the kind of gift that Amy appreciated--her boyfriend made her feel like a princess, which she never got to be and which obviously loomed large in her fantasy life.

 

 

 

Again, it's always been fiction, so I don't know why you want to try to make it about real-world standards.  No fiction holds up to real life, that's why we get lost in it, whether it's TV or movies or books or whatever.

Leonard and Penny's romance is just as fictional--pretty, popular girl with no education to speak of, nerdy short guy with a PhD who doesn't get out much--but because the writers make them be attracted to each other they are.  Because they say that Leonard overlooks her lack of education and her initial dismissal of his hobbies and she looks past his nerdy hobbies and his hoodies and and all of that, they're able to develop a friendship that turns into romance.

Is that any more realistic?  It doesn't have to be because it's fiction.

 

If Sheldon never changed, can you honestly say Amy would be happy? I don't think she would.

 

(see short and sweet)

Edited February 28, 2013 by Moonbase

[Ar Diem]

You still didn't really answer the question but I am moving on...

 

If she were happy she would not be trying to change him.  Her ideas of romance may have been a little immature at times but there was nothing immature about her VD plans.  If what she wants is selfish then it points to them being incompatible.  She should be with someone who likes to spend an evening of romance with her.  Also, you missed a point.  The second motivator is doing things to make someone happy because it makes you happy for them to be happy.  Sheldon was practicing smiling.  He was clearly not happy about going out which means he was doing it to avoid conflict.

 

The problem with your opera couple scenario is that it is not being suggested that they dislike going out and spending time in romantic outings they just dislike each other's taste in music.  That situation would be easily resolved by choosing another activity that they both enjoy.  That is not to say that we always love what we have to do for our partners.  My wife and I have both attended various functions over the years that the other hated but because it was expected we each did it to avoid conflict. 

 

You can spend time with your friends talking about work and playing games.  That is not romance.  Sheldon regularly goes to dinner with her but when it is clearly in the name of romance suddenly he balks at it just like he balks at most romantic things.  If they had left her more like him and had them both move through the concept of romance it would have worked but by making her more like Penny they made them incompatible.

 

You could certainly make an argument for the hug being abusive towards him but if you do it still comes back to them being incompatible.  Since he chose to be in this relationship and fully understands there is a physical component to it by telling her that her expression of affection is ruining his evening he is being hurtful.  Sure it was sold as a joke but I didn't find it funny.

 

I keep giving you an out with the whole it works because it is fictional thing but you keep coming back to defend their relationship as if it works some other way too.  It doesn't.  You don't have to agree with me but considering how I have seen these kinds of relationships actually play out in the real world you will never convince me.  You need to be mostly compatible with your partners and you certainly should not expect them to change in drastic ways because it is not really fair to you or them.

[phantagrae]

If Sheldon never changed, can you honestly say Amy would be happy? I don't think she would.

 

(see short and sweet)

 

That's a moot point because he is changing and she is happy.

 

Shorter and sweeter.

[Moonbase]

That's a moot point because he is changing and she is happy.

 

Shorter and sweeter.

 

 

Your previous post was 1292 words, that's longer than the average essay. I couldn't help myself.

 

My point is not moot BTW. She isn't happy with him as he is.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Moonbase

[phantagrae]

You still didn't really answer the question but I am moving on...

Edited February 28, 2013 by phantagrae

[phantagrae]

Your previous post was 1292 words, that's longer than the average essay. I couldn't help myself.

 

My point is not moot BTW. She isn't happy with him as he is.

 

He's not perfect, and there may be things she'd like to see change, but that doesn't mean she isn't happy.

[Ar Diem]

You lost me when you said she wasn't trying to change him in fundamental ways.  Before Amy he was anti-romantic and anti-sex.  In order for him to be in a romantic and potential physical relationship he has to change not only some of his hang-ups but also some of his core beliefs.   Remember that he believes that sex will weaken his mental faculties which he loves with an obvious passion.  I know you and others do not think the show will go that direction but it doesn't change the fact that he believes it.

 

At one time or another TV and movies have tried to make everything funny.  If you worked with kids that were victims of child abuse you might not find Homer strangling Bart as funny.  I have made no attempt to hide the fact that I dislike this relationship because of personal biases.  In fact, I have been so clear about it I don't understand why people like yourself keep trying to sell me on it.  The only way Amy and Sheldon could be more mismatched is if one of them was gay.  I don't find it charming or cute to see a woman invest two years of her life into a man that still hates the idea of a romantic dinner with her and considers an unwanted hug as ruining his evening.

 

The writers clearly made the EC a bum gift.  IMO, it was a bad joke on anyone who likes Shamy.  Think about it.  He kept the good gift for himself.  Her reaction to it was ridiculously over the top or else she knows as little about him as he does about her (monkeys and gray  ). To top it with cream the writers showed what having the gift really meant for Amy when we saw him harassing her with it. 

 

I gotta run.  There may be more to your post I need to address but it will have to wait.

[ShamyFTW]

Any? Listen, I OWN the first 4 seasons on DVD. Season 5... well, all but 2 episodes downloaded on Hulu (I have to get the Wiggly Finger Catalyst and the Infestation Something- something). As for THIS season, my boss and I both watch this show, I have to work a little while it is on as I work nights, but it's usually quiet enough. Plus, I catch up the next day on CBS.com, so YES I have watched each and EVERY episode EVER made with the exception of the UNAIRED PILOT, and believe you me, I'll find that too! Right after I find the Lost Ark of the Covenant to use as a footstool while I bask in all the Katie and Gilda in the cramped, grimy apartment wonderment of the ONE BBT episode I haven't yet seen multiple times.

  Just because the writers laid off one of Amy's annoying traits for a few episodes doesn't wash the bad taste of the last 2 seasons out of my mouth, sorry. I love the show, I loathe the character. And for the record, I like the actress (Mayim Bialik before you accuse me of not knowing her name) just fine, I know she's a talented, smart woman. I will never get that character, and I think I'll lay the blame on the writers for that.

No, I would not have accused you of not liking Mayim, I do not come onto the boards just to argue with people.  It's pointless.

 

However, you stated in your previous post that Amy was confused you even called her a lesbian(don't know where you got that from).  At any rate, the pining is past tense and Amy wants to be in a relationship with Sheldon. 

[Justin Christopher]

 I didn't "call" Amy a lesbian, she was WRITTEN like one towards Penney on so many occasions, like the Portrait which didn't have Bernadette, the first date with Sheldon while Penney was driving when she asked if SHE was a lesbian, and seemed dissapointed when Penney answered in the negative, the bridesmaid shopping trip the other two didn't invite her to because they were tired of her mentioning the washing rituals, etc etc etc.

 I have to say, Chuck Lorre loves the gay jokes in general, I've seen Will and Grace,  Dharma and Greg and Two and a Half Men without Charlie is turning into one gay joke after another, and then there's THIS show with Raj AND Amy, and as they lay off Amy they turn on the gay juice with RAJ, who is one of my fave characters after Leonard. He has stated many times he is straight, I get the metrosexual thing (up to a point), but good lord, the gay jokes just never let up with him. His sister even poked fun at him about his owning a Lt. Uhura dress, "Our family's secret shame." Ugggh. This show could be considered somewhat family oriented (compared to any of Chuck Lorre's other shows, and I believe Bill Prady may be responsible for that). I just don't see the need for the AMOUNT of gay "humor" in this show. It is mean spirited, and detremental to all sides... as a Christian, I don't need to have my nose rubbed in that life style, if I did I could watch HBO not CBS. Nor do families who watch the show together. And for people who actually ARE gay, I would think THEY would feel kind of offended too. None of the characters in Two and a Half Men or this show are actually gay, but the repartee and the frequency of it is insulting and stereotypical in a way you KNOW they would never have the cajones to do with African Americans. I know, because I do have some gay friends and they like the show, but do feel kind of offended by some of the material.  It might be different if any of the characters on the show came out of the closet (Stuart? Kripke? hmmmm....) and actually represented. Maybe Sheldon, after all, Jim Parsons has a husband, I wonder how he feels, sometimes. He must have a sense of humor about it.

 In summation, I do love the show, don't get it twisted. Listen, I dig Star Wars, but don't get me started on Ewoks, 10 year old Anakin or Jar- Jar Binks (who IS kind of hated by African Americans BTW) LOL. Just because I like something doesn't make it a sacred cow. I would just like to see a little more wholesome entertainment in the time slot, and I don't feel Big Bang Theory needs to go the lowest common denominator route for comedy. What would be next, fart jokes? More penis jokes? Hire Adam Sandler for season 7? This show was great because it has a sweetness to it that you don't find often these days, I just don't want to see the show get irrevocably jaded. If I wanted THAT, I could always watch Saturday Night Live.

[Nogravitasatall]

I didn't "call" Amy a lesbian, she was WRITTEN like one towards Penney on so many occasions, like the Portrait which didn't have Bernadette, the first date with Sheldon while Penney was driving when she asked if SHE was a lesbian, and seemed dissapointed when Penney answered in the negative, the bridesmaid shopping trip the other two didn't invite her to because they were tired of her mentioning the washing rituals, etc etc etc.

I have to say, Chuck Lorre loves the gay jokes in general, I've seen Will and Grace, Dharma and Greg and Two and a Half Men without Charlie is turning into one gay joke after another, and then there's THIS show with Raj AND Amy, and as they lay off Amy they turn on the gay juice with RAJ, who is one of my fave characters after Leonard. He has stated many times he is straight, I get the metrosexual thing (up to a point), but good lord, the gay jokes just never let up with him. His sister even poked fun at him about his owning a Lt. Uhura dress, "Our family's secret shame." Ugggh. This show could be considered somewhat family oriented (compared to any of Chuck Lorre's other shows, and I believe Bill Prady may be responsible for that). I just don't see the need for the AMOUNT of gay "humor" in this show. It is mean spirited, and detremental to all sides... as a Christian, I don't need to have my nose rubbed in that life style, if I did I could watch HBO not CBS. Nor do families who watch the show together. And for people who actually ARE gay, I would think THEY would feel kind of offended too. None of the characters in Two and a Half Men or this show are actually gay, but the repartee and the frequency of it is insulting and stereotypical in a way you KNOW they would never have the cajones to do with African Americans. I know, because I do have some gay friends and they like the show, but do feel kind of offended by some of the material. It might be different if any of the characters on the show came out of the closet (Stuart? Kripke? hmmmm....) and actually represented. Maybe Sheldon, after all, Jim Parsons has a husband, I wonder how he feels, sometimes. He must have a sense of humor about it.

In summation, I do love the show, don't get it twisted. Listen, I dig Star Wars, but don't get me started on Ewoks, 10 year old Anakin or Jar- Jar Binks (who IS kind of hated by African Americans BTW) LOL. Just because I like something doesn't make it a sacred cow. I would just like to see a little more wholesome entertainment in the time slot, and I don't feel Big Bang Theory needs to go the lowest common denominator route for comedy. What would be next, fart jokes? More penis jokes? Hire Adam Sandler for season 7? This show was great because it has a sweetness to it that you don't find often these days, I just don't want to see the show get irrevocably jaded. If I wanted THAT, I could always watch Saturday Night Live.

two thing you could do I guess, change channels and forgive them.

[Justin Christopher]

You forgot the third option. Write my own show. Really? The whole bible? If you follow someone's post that closely, you could just pick maybe a paragraph to respond to. My long and rambling post was long and rambling enough once, thank you very much. I was just about to try editing it down to a form where an audiobook would NOT have been a viable option, but I guess that ship has sailed. Lastly, forgiveness is divine. So is constructive critisizm.

[ShamyFTW]

 I didn't "call" Amy a lesbian, she was WRITTEN like one towards Penney on so many occasions, like the Portrait which didn't have Bernadette, the first date with Sheldon while Penney was driving when she asked if SHE was a lesbian, and seemed dissapointed when Penney answered in the negative, the bridesmaid shopping trip the other two didn't invite her to because they were tired of her mentioning the washing rituals, etc etc etc.

 I have to say, Chuck Lorre loves the gay jokes in general, I've seen Will and Grace,  Dharma and Greg and Two and a Half Men without Charlie is turning into one gay joke after another, and then there's THIS show with Raj AND Amy, and as they lay off Amy they turn on the gay juice with RAJ, who is one of my fave characters after Leonard. He has stated many times he is straight, I get the metrosexual thing (up to a point), but good lord, the gay jokes just never let up with him. His sister even poked fun at him about his owning a Lt. Uhura dress, "Our family's secret shame." Ugggh. This show could be considered somewhat family oriented (compared to any of Chuck Lorre's other shows, and I believe Bill Prady may be responsible for that). I just don't see the need for the AMOUNT of gay "humor" in this show. It is mean spirited, and detremental to all sides... as a Christian, I don't need to have my nose rubbed in that life style, if I did I could watch HBO not CBS. Nor do families who watch the show together. And for people who actually ARE gay, I would think THEY would feel kind of offended too. None of the characters in Two and a Half Men or this show are actually gay, but the repartee and the frequency of it is insulting and stereotypical in a way you KNOW they would never have the cajones to do with African Americans. I know, because I do have some gay friends and they like the show, but do feel kind of offended by some of the material.  It might be different if any of the characters on the show came out of the closet (Stuart? Kripke? hmmmm....) and actually represented. Maybe Sheldon, after all, Jim Parsons has a husband, I wonder how he feels, sometimes. He must have a sense of humor about it.

 In summation, I do love the show, don't get it twisted. Listen, I dig Star Wars, but don't get me started on Ewoks, 10 year old Anakin or Jar- Jar Binks (who IS kind of hated by African Americans BTW) LOL. Just because I like something doesn't make it a sacred cow. I would just like to see a little more wholesome entertainment in the time slot, and I don't feel Big Bang Theory needs to go the lowest common denominator route for comedy. What would be next, fart jokes? More penis jokes? Hire Adam Sandler for season 7? This show was great because it has a sweetness to it that you don't find often these days, I just don't want to see the show get irrevocably jaded. If I wanted THAT, I could always watch Saturday Night Live.

Wondering if your gay friends would be offended by your phrase "gay juice"....

 

I could be wrong, but I have not heard any gay jokes on TBBT that were disparaging or mean spirited.  The show does use these innuendo a lot, and it could just be Mr. Lorre's brand of humor.

 

I get what your saying about Star Wars, which I love, but do not care for 10 year old Anakin or Jar Jar, although I'm not quite sure how that relates to African Americans.  I like the Ewoks though.  They are cute.

[Nogravitasatall]

You forgot the third option. Write my own show. Really? The whole bible? If you follow someone's post that closely, you could just pick maybe a paragraph to respond to. My long and rambling post was long and rambling enough once, thank you very much. I was just about to try editing it down to a form where an audiobook would NOT have been a viable option, but I guess that ship has sailed. Lastly, forgiveness is divine. So is constructive critisizm.

It was a bit long. I'm tapping on a mobile phone myself. And im a bit slow with it.

I'm actually interested in the power of the act of forgiveness. It is not just limited to the divine. We can all choose to forgive.

I thought Amy had a girl crush. It did get a little intense but never enough to label her lesbian I felt.

Some of the things you have raised might be to my mind a little overstated as problems for the show. Its seems to be fairly well received generally.

Anyway l look forward to your future posts, maybe without so many caps, because i am learning that it comes across as shouting. But we each have a style.

In terms of constructive criticism: im all for that.

[Justin Christopher]

Shamy: His voice and antics are based on Jamaicans. And the Trade Federation were the Mandarin Chinese in alien form. George Lucas weaves a 1930's sensibility into his stories, and I guess Jar- Jar could have been a riff on Charlie Chaplin. If it had worked.  Gay juice is nothing compared to what the writers had Raj say to Stewart about wearing a black dress or the ridiculous scene in the Christmas Dungeons and Dragons game with all the "shoot your magic..." etc etc. And as for the nothing disparaging or mean spirited, uhhhmmm....  really? Well, I suppose we both have different definitions, I'll leave it at that. I feel sorry for Raj these last two seasons. And for the love of all that is good and just in the universe, ewoks... no, just NO.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Justin Christopher