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Is Amy A Relationship Doormat?


Ar Diem
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This is so true. There are too many versions of Amy. At the moment we have two. One who is goofy, says funny things and has no self awareness. The other is mature, level headed and sensible. Its not the same character, she even sounds different when she speaks. Someone wrote on another thread that Amy was ill conceived and I agree with this. They just shape her to whatever they happen to need for each episode.

 

I disagree. I think Amy's characterization is completely consistent with her admittedly somewhat rapid-ish character development. There's a proverb from my country that goes "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." The way I look at it is that metaphorically  while Amy was blind before, now she has one eye. Basically she started to develop more social skills because of her friendship with Bernadette and Penny. However, I do not think she is or can become completely socially mature... as of now, she still has a long way to go. Therefore, you see her goofy side with the girls.

 

With Sheldon, however, metaphorically, she is the "one-eyed king" with respect to social interactions and that's why Sheldon looks to her for guidance, for ex: in the funeral. That's why in my opinion, Amy appears mature, level-headed and sensible when she interacts with Sheldon. If you think about Amy's actions logically, her way of trying to fix Sheldon's closure issues by "experimenting" with him is still weird and not really the most sensible and/or mature route of action. 

Edited by menamena
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I disagree. I think Amy's characterization is completely consistent with her admittedly rapid character development. There's a proverb from my country that goes "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." The way I look at it is that metaphorically  while Amy was blind before, now she has one eye. Basically she started to develop more social skills because of her friendship with Bernadette and Penny. However, I do not think she is or can become completely socially mature... as of now, she still has a long way to go. Therefore, you see her goofy side with the girls.

 

With Sheldon, however, metaphorically, she is the "one-eyed king" with respect to social interactions and that's why Sheldon looks to her for guidance, for ex: in the funeral. That's why in my opinion, Amy appears mature, level-headed and sensible when she interacts with Sheldon. If you think about Amy's actions logically, her way of trying to fix Sheldon's closure issues by "experimenting" with him is still weird and not really the most sensible and/or mature route of action. 

 

The Amy that arrived on the show is season 4 is a different character. No one changes that much, that quickly. This transition everyone talks about is just convenient for the writers. It covers up the fact they altered her several times, until they found something that worked on the show. The changes has slowed down over the later part of this season though.

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Oh what I'd give to have season 4 Amy back. But then I'm a broken record on that front.

I don't see how this episode is an example Amy being a relationship doormat. If anything, I'd say she was in control for most of the A/S interactions this week.

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The Amy that arrived on the show is season 4 is a different character. No one changes that much, that quickly. This transition everyone talks about is just convenient for the writers. It covers up the fact they altered her several times, until they found something that worked on the show. The changes has slowed down over the later part of this season though.

 

 

I agree.  It is not like Sheldon is the same Sheldon from the pilot and early in season 1.  In fact, the Sheldon this year is probably the most immature version of him yet.   He can't cuss anymore and his descriptions of sex sound like he is in 2nd grade not the Sheldon who knew where his myofascial point is.

 

Amy has changed in some dramatic ways.  I kind of miss inappropriate Amy from last season.  She was hilarious and she brought out some of the best acting from Kaley too.

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I agree.  It is not like Sheldon is the same Sheldon from the pilot and early in season 1.  In fact, the Sheldon this year is probably the most immature version of him yet.   He can't cuss anymore and his descriptions of sex sound like he is in 2nd grade not the Sheldon who knew where his myofascial point is.

 

Amy has changed in some dramatic ways.  I kind of miss inappropriate Amy from last season.  She was hilarious and she brought out some of the best acting from Kaley too.

 

I totally agree. Do you remember this one in late S3?

 

Sheldon: I didn’t want to upset you. Howard made it very clear that my allegiance should be to male comrades before women who sell their bodies for money.

Leonard: Is it possible he said Bros before Hos?

Sheldon: Yes, but I rephrased it to avoid offending the hos.

 

I'd never seen that old-school politeness in a TV character before. It set him apart. This season he's been a bit of a childish jerk, it's not a change for the better because there are plenty of rude characters around.

Edited by Moonbase
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I wouldn't say they "have to evolve" necessarily. It's just that people influence one another. Every relationship you have will have some influence on you...why shouldn't these characters be the same?

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This year's Sheldon is just not very likable. He's become a selfish goofball instead of being brilliant, analytical and quirky. 

 

I would love to have the original Amy back. One of my favorite episodes is Sheldon and Amy's first date where they analyzed Penny like she was a lab specimen.  But, they need to grow and evolve and find love so they don't end up old and lonely in their empty apartments, blah, blah, blah.............

 

Totally agree that episode was hilarious. Why can't they stay unevolved and obnoxious. Now they were funny then. Europa - this isn't real life it's a sitcom they don't need to change.

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But if they didn't change at all, wouldn't we tire of them? I mean, TBBT is going to be a long running show. Do we really want to watch up to 10 seasons of the same people doing the same things, never maturing, never experiencing new things? I imagine the writers might find it difficult to churn out original stories for them after awhile.

I'm not saying all the changes have been for the best, but at least they keep the show from stagnating. Idk.

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But they're TV characters. They don't HAVE lives. They're just supposed to be funny.

 

In what universe do characters not have lives in the minds of the people who write them? These characters do not stay still as statues in the minds of the people who dream them up. They could never write an effective story if they did. In order to write the characters and to continue on season after season, they have to imagine these characters in their minds eye and how they live, what they do every day, how they feel about things, where did they eat and what did they work on and how is that affecting them and what events and conflicts are they going to put in front of the characters to deal with and how will the characters deal with those events and conflicts. To come to life in a story and on screen, these characters must have lives both internal and external, that are imagined by and understood and discussed at length by an entire team of writers, producers and actors.

 

Every story needs some conflict, and the characters must interact and then the action be propelled forward by the character's reactions. Since this is a sitcom, it's true, they show us the funny bits and sometimes gear the lines to be humorous, although they try to keep those comments in character. I can think of plenty of storylines on TBBT where they have simply not shown us the "drama" which obviously happened off-screen, choosing instead just to give us enough of a hint to understand or speculate what happened - Leonard's break ups with Priya and Dr. Stephanie come to mind in these cases.

 

In any case! Back to the question of whether Amy is a relationship doormat or not -

 

One way I can look at it is that back at the end of last season, Amy made some significant progress in her relationship with Sheldon when she started doing things "to make him happy." For awhile, that was working out for her, but I think she got stuck a little bit in that pattern, and now Sheldon has come to take it for granted. Maybe - that's one theory.

 

Another thing I'm looking at with the recent change in the relationship is that something odd seemed to happen around the time of the V-Day thread. Most of this is gossip and speculation, but people who have been to the tapings and spoken to people who work there have come back with the information that the show had something more significant planned for the Shamy in that eipsode, but they changed their minds. And part of changing their minds was word coming down at that time that CBS wanted the show to go on for 10 seasons, past the point where they are currently under contract for 8. I don't know if that made them decide to slow some things down and push them back further, but it feels a little artificial, the way things have gone since then.

 

The entire first half of the season, Sheldon seemed very worried that Amy would leave him, and was bending over backwards to do things for the relationship I never thought I would see him do. He was taking care of her when she was sick, and challenging Wil Wheaton to a fist fight while drunk, worrying that he was a callous egomanic, and playing secret games of hacky sack in the basement to deal with his emotions on a daily basis, because he felt overwhelmed by them recently.

 

At the V-Day episode, things seemed to flip. Amy did something nice for Sheldon in giving him a Valentine's Day without all of her romantic demands for what she thought one should be. Which was nice, and he appreciated it. Then came the whole thing with Snow White, and he both praised her as a scientist and flat out ignored her hints at a kiss in that episode. Since then there have been some small comments from Sheldon which seem to be putting up a very deliberate boundary against Amy's hints at increasing their physical intimacy, but to be honest, both Amy and Sheldon are tap dancing around the issue. I'm not sure that Amy is being a relationship doormat right now, but I think both Sheldon and Amy are coming at the issue of sex sideways because they are still virgins, and still very inexperienced with relationships, and they have no idea how to tackle the issue honestly. 

 

As we know, that's about to change in a few episodes. So after that, who knows what will happen, but the issue of whether Amy is a doormat or not might become moot. We already have plenty of clear evidence that Amy is NOT a doormat - she's stood her ground with Sheldon on multiple times in the past - but I think right now there's something she really wants from Sheldon and she's aware that it's a sensitive and complicated issue, and she just doesn't know how to go about addressing it yet. While she is hampered by this insecurity which is causing her to stop short of asking Sheldon bluntly for what she wants, she's got a problem and we all can see that. But Amy agreed to a relationship with Sheldon in which "nothing changes, including physically," so she knows that her current desires are going against something that she agreed to. She's also been testing the waters with Sheldon and listening to his comments about physical intimacy, and she knows that she has a problem and a long road in front of her, and that can be a hard thing to get her mind around and figure out how to tackle or deal with. So she's in that limbo at the moment. I think that eventually the tide will turn - she's going to be pushed forward by an event or by her own emotions and the strength of her feelings to eventually DO SOMETHING about them.

 

So the pressure is building towards that. Is Amy perhaps waffling a little here? Yes, I think that she is, but that's only been since about episode 6.17, and we're on 6.21? I don't think this period is going to last that long - Amy is not shy, and her feelings for Sheldon are really strong. But her hesitation is perfectly understandable; she has a clear head and knows the situation she's in. Nevertheless, I don't think this current dynamic between the two of them is going to stay status quo for very long. Their relationship is just going through a phase.

Edited by Lionne
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I think there's just a fundamental difference on how people view TV characters.

 

I see them strictly as fictional charaters whose purpose is to make me laugh. Period.

 

Others seem to view them as real beings who need to grow, evolve, fall in love and find happiness as if they're real-life friends of theirs.

 

I don't know if it's possible for those two views to ever see eye-to-eye.

 

But I am constantly amazed at how angry some people get over disagreements about the show. 

 

I actually do not think that the fundamental difference here is that you have an understanding that these characters are fictional while everyone else arguing against you is deluded or insane enough to feel as if the characters are real or almost real. I think the fundamental difference here is that you are saying:

 

I find it funny when character X runs slips on a banana and falls down.

 

And apparently you're fine with them slipping on a banana and falling down each and every episode.

 

Others on here are trying to note that that is 1) boring and 2) unbelievable, because who in the world manages to find a banana peel to slip on each and every day?

 

It's almost like the "They killed Kenny" joke from South Park. Although they played that joke a hundred different ways, eventually they developed storylines and scenes behind it, and then they just eventually wanted the character gone for awhile because they got sick of the joke, and eventually they stopped working the joke into everything. Things get tiring after awhile. People want to explore new ideas, new conflicts, new situations and etc.

 

I feel like you are arguing that we can live with an unending "You killed Kenny" joke, or the same gag of someone slipping on a banana peel over and over and over again - everything stays the same, someone makes you laugh, and then you go away happy. I also get the impression from your comments that you don't want to apply any sort of deeper thought or analysis or intellectualism to what you watch on TV and what you enjoy.

 

To me that sounds a) boring, b ) OH MY GOD SO BORING and c) SERIOUSLY SOUNDS LIKE A SNOOZE FEST TO ME. It's not even realistic in the art of writing a book or TV show which you hope will go on for years - TV has a long history and people who work in it have come to know and find out that their ratings go down and shows lose their appeal if they don't evolve their characters over time. Or let me say it this way: the power of storytelling and characters, no matter the genre, is the reader/listener/watchers ability to relate to the character or find them interesting in some way. It is the characters which drag people into the story, and if you come up with unbelievable or bad characters (such as a Mary Sue, for instance), people will bail on you. To create a great character like Sheldon and then maintain him requires drawing him as true to something real as you can, and to push him through his life as well as you can imagine.

 

Lastly, the idea that you are concerned with ever seeing "eye-to-eye" with other people around here, or that you're just wandering around innocently "amazed" and just shocked (shocked!) that people seem upset or argumentative seems completely disingenuous and insincere coming from you based on just the handful of posts and conversations I've seen you participate in. If you think you can sit on a high horse and pull that off convincingly you are seriously deluded about how you come across on this forum. When I come across your posts, I find that you are often hostile, aggressive, insulting and just infuriating in the way you are dismissive and abusive to other posters. I'm not sure that people disagree with your opinion so much as they disagree with the way you word things, condescend to everyone around you, and kinda act like a dick half the time. I don't know if you're disagreeable all the time; I don't pay you that much attention, but from what I have seen you fully participate in this arguments you find so "amazing" and back up your own opinion just as strongly as anyone else.

 

I don't always disagree with you, to be honest, and I like to debate on the issues of the show. What sets people off (and this is not aimed only at you) is when people remark on, judge, and editorialize on other people's behavior. Lines such as "I know the Shamy shippers are going to see this through rose-tinted glasses" or "Shenny shippers are totally delusional and twist everything to suit their concept of the show" are fighting words and trigger arguments. To make such remarks and then feign surprise that people get upset is disingenuous at best, just plain trolling at worst.

Edited by Lionne
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@lionne,

Now that's an argument. Now can we get back to defcon5 and generally lift civiity.

@lost, please edit away your implicit death threat. It's an escalator not a deterrent and not funny to any un well people who don't need any of that ideation.

Thank you

(Eta, or don't. Free board etc)

Edited by Nogravitasatall

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@lionne,

Now that's an argument. Now can we get back to defcon5 and generally lift civiity.

 

It's more like a confrontation than an argument, but why split hairs. I think we're already around defcon 4, and you don't seem to mind being a bit scrappy either, considering you're telling Lost how to edit her posts, so I suppose you'd like to see defcon 5 arrive?

Edited by Lionne

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"And apparently you're fine with them slipping on a banana and falling down each and every episode."
 
I don't think it's accurate to characterize, for instance, the first 3 seasons as "slipping on a banana peel" or "killing Kenny" each and every episode. The writers were able to come with fresh, original ways to be funny almost every week. But I DO think that the writers realized that the well of that fresh, original humor was running dry, so they decided to transition the show to a more conventional, easily writable, and in my opinion, boring romcom type of show. I would have preferred they just did a "Fawlty Towers" and ended it but they did what they had to do to keep the show going and the ratings have supported that decision. I don't like the changes but there's nothing I can do about it other than voice my disagreement. It is what it is.
 
As for the personal comments, I admit they're not totally undeserved. But I'm not "concerned" about seeing eye-to-eye with those who disagree with me because I know it will never happen. People have strongly held opinions. And I AM amazed at how angry people get out here. You won't have to look too far for examples. I can honestly say that I've never been angry with anyone else out here. I disagree with many people but I've never been angry at them.  And I'm sorry you see my posts as hostile, aggressive, insulting , infuriating , dismissive and abusive. I really don't mean them that way. At least not most of them. :icon_twisted: Perhaps you should read more than a "handful of posts". But again, you wouldn't have to look very far far to see that same behavior aimed at me. But thanks for the constructive criticism. And I mean that. :icon_wink:

 

 

If your opinion is that the show is becoming more of a typical romcom, that's understandable and I get what you are trying to say there. Although I'm not sure that romantic entanglements and relationships, and how a group of genius guys who are slightly socially incapacitated figure out how to pursue women was never a strong theme of the show as a whole. The difference is that instead of Leonard and his on-off thing with Penny, the string of girls he dated, while Howard and Raj went about haplessly trying to woo them and Sheldon stayed aloof is that there are now 2 permanent relationships on the show which didn't exist before. I don't disagree that the show has changed from 1 girl, 4 guys and the Cheesecake Factory into 3 couples, their 1 really messed up friend Raj, and a comic book store. It has. Nevertheless, I still feel that the show mines a lot from "geek humor" and has stayed more or less character-driven and definitely still funny. I rewatched season 5 on DVD in January, removed from watching each new episode on pins and needles wondering what would happen, and from the more comfortable and laid back perspective, I have to say it's a very funny, sharply written season. And season 4 is definitely my favorite out of them all. If anything, I do think that the show has actually gotten a little edgier - it was always funny, but seasons 1 - 3 are very sweet and in some ways a lot of fluff. The show got by mostly on charm; it wasn't all that complicated. I always liked it, but the show didn't turn me from a casual viewer into a hardcore fan who went out and bought all the DVDs until season 4.

 

The problem is, though, that we're almost done with season 6 now. The show changed in season 4 to include the characters of Amy and Bernadette, and move Sheldon and Howard into having relationships, and we've had 3 seasons of it. When is the funeral and the complaining about the change from seasons 1 - 3 going to end already? I mean, seriously, it's time to either get on board with the show as it is now - which is still an incredibly funny show, and quite unique - or take your season 1 - 3 DVDs and reruns and lock yourself into the stasis of that period of the show and your enjoyment of it and let the rest of the world leave you behind and stop complaining about it.

 

As for pointing the finger at anyone else, I did point the finger generally, noting that the editorial commentary leads to fights, and I used examples of judgements and comments leveled at both Shamy and Shenny shippers, and since those two are diametrically opposed, I'm trying to hit both ends of the entire spectrum and everything which lies in between. I think that's about as general as I can get. So yes, I am talking about you here - and you have admitted you won't stop watching the show just because you need to come to the forum to "tweak the emos," but I am talking about comments laced with judgement which come from other sources as well. I don't think that you have ever been angry at people, but I do think that you deliberately make provocative statements and then like to laugh up your sleeve when it makes people upset. That's trolling, or "tweaking the emos" as you call it, and it makes you a participant in the fights, not an outsider to them.

 

As for your little devil faces, I see that you're flirting with me and I just want you to know that I think that love is an unnecessary cultural concept which adds no value to human relationships. And don't touch my boob - not that you were going to but I just want to set boundaries.

Edited by Lionne
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lol at the term doormat

 

well its true

its also kinda getting ridiculous

and i hope one day in the show she can change him unexpectly

just a little perhaps but hey, a change is something already

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It's more like a confrontation than an argument, but why split hairs. I think we're already around defcon 4, and you don't seem to mind being a bit scrappy either, considering you're telling Lost how to edit her posts, so I suppose you'd like to see defcon 5 arrive?

i was lauding your well constructed argument. No ad hominem and to the point. Generally. And defcon5 is no threat as sheldon told the boys in the mars rover ep. Defcon1 is armageddon. 5 is peacetime.

And youd mop the floor with me. Im a nerd. Who gets upset by the suggestion of killing, on a gif.

Edited by Nogravitasatall

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I don't always disagree with you, to be honest, and I like to debate on the issues of the show. What sets people off (and this is not aimed only at you) is when people remark on, judge, and editorialize on other people's behavior. Lines such as "I know the Shamy shippers are going to see this through rose-tinted glasses" or "Shenny shippers are totally delusional and twist everything to suit their concept of the show" are fighting words and trigger arguments. To make such remarks and then feign surprise that people get upset is disingenuous at best, just plain trolling at worst.

 

 

I agree.  Now if you can take this message to the Shamys that call people names, try to censor opinions, and even troll perhaps progress can be made.  Otherwise you are wasting your time because this argument has been going on as long as I have been here and neither side can claim that all of their members are in the right.

 

Debates never end where they should which is agreeing to disagree. Instead some on each side tries to label the other in way that explains why they have the opinions they do and it is never flattering.   There is no way to explain what entertains and what doesn't to different people.

 

Dj, take the high road. Be the bigger man.  It is more satisfying knowing that you have risen above the situation than staying in it and playing the same game some of them play.   Even if it was in jest a comment like watching the show "to tweak the emos" makes the ones that infuriate us so much feel like they are the good guys and makes you look like a troll.

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