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walnutcowboy
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Ok all you people that claim to understand the Bible... Can you explain your belief that your dead grandmas are in heaven, when John 3:13 clearly teaches that they are not.

 

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man.

 

@ 4ofN, atheists welcome. Even if you consider the Bible fiction we can still discuss the intended meaning.

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Ok all you people that claim to understand the Bible... Can you explain your belief that your dead grandmas are in heaven, when John 3:13 clearly teaches that they are not.

 

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man.

 

@ 4ofN, atheists welcome. Even if you consider the Bible fiction we can still discuss the intended meaning.

 

John 3:13 states that no one has ever ascended into heaven.  Ascension is the act of bodily rising into heaven.  That has nothing to do with my dead grandparents or parents not being in heaven...

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 Take ANYTHING out of context and you can get it to say ANYTHING you want.

Try STARTING at John 3:11. It changes the whole point you were TRYING to make !!

 

 If you are truly offended by the BIBLE (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth) on the History Channel, I suggest you might want to change the channel.

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Sorry about all of this folks. Where I come from people don't take the bible literally and it is OK to not gloss over the nasty bits during discussions.

 

I'll just bow out of this conversation as my intent was not to be rude.

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John 3:13 states that no one has ever ascended into heaven.  Ascension is the act of bodily rising into heaven.  That has nothing to do with my dead grandparents or parents not being in heaven...

 

What are you reading? John 3:13 very clearly reads NO ONE has Ever gone into heaven. It says nothing about bodily rising.

 

Please show me the scripture that confirms your claim.

 

Here is another scripture that confirms that your dead grandma is not in heaven....

 

1Timothy 6:14-16 (New International Version)

 

15which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honour and might forever. Amen.

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 Take ANYTHING out of context and you can get it to say ANYTHING you want.

Try STARTING at John 3:11. It changes the whole point you were TRYING to make !!

 

Please explain how John 3:11 disgrees with the fact that John 3:13 clearly states that no one has ever gone into heaven.

 

John 3:11-13 New International Version

 

11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]

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Sorry about all of this folks. Where I come from people don't take the bible literally and it is OK to not gloss over the nasty bits during discussions.

 

I'll just bow out of this conversation as my intent was not to be rude.

 

Funny how you took exception to my calling evolution a myth in the Scientist Thread, yet you find it acceptable to call scipture a myth in this Bible thread.

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   If you are truly offended by the BIBLE (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth) on the History Channel, I suggest you might want to change the channel.

 

That's cute, but I trust you know that "bible" really just comes from the Latin term for "book" and is not an acronym.  ;)

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What are you reading? John 3:13 very clearly reads NO ONE has Ever gone into heaven. It says nothing about bodily rising.

 

Please show me the scripture that confirms your claim.

 

Here is another scripture that confirms that your dead grandma is not in heaven....

 

1Timothy 6:14-16 (New International Version)

 

15which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honour and might forever. Amen.

 

I use the King James Version of the Bible:

 

John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

 

As far as my dead grandmother (and that is really harsh when you think about it), I do not know where she is for I did not know any of my grandparents well enough to know their faith.  Neither do I have conclusive evidence my parents are in heaven for I did not know their faith.

 

 

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I use the King James Version of the Bible:

 

John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

 

As far as my dead grandmother (and that is really harsh when you think about it), I do not know where she is for I did not know any of my grandparents well enough to know their faith.  Neither do I have conclusive evidence my parents are in heaven for I did not know their faith.

 

 

 

That is correct no man has ascended into heaven, including your grandma.

 

You seem to believe that verse refers to the pyhsical body, yet that is not what the verse says.

 

Do not read something into a verse that is not there.

 

Regarding grandparents, I only use that as an example, I intend no disrespect.

Edited by Catweazle

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I do not believe I am reading anything into that particular verse.  In both Catholic and Protestant religions that I have been associated with believe ascension to be of the physical body.  My grandmother's physical body (both of them) are in the same cemetery in CT.  Where their soul is, I do not know.... :)

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Funny how you took exception to my calling evolution a myth in the Scientist Thread, yet you find it acceptable to call scipture a myth in this Bible thread.

 

PHOEBE: Uh-oh. It's Scary Scientist Man.

ROSS: Ok, Phoebe, this is it. In this briefcase I carry actual scientific facts. A briefcase of facts, if you will. Some of these fossils are over 200 million years old.

PHOEBE: Ok, look, before you even start, I'm not denying evolution, ok, I'm just saying that it's one of the possibilities.

ROSS: It's the only possibility, Phoebe.

PHOEBE: Ok, Ross, could you just open your mind like this much, ok? Wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed that the world was flat? And, up until like what, 50 years ago, you all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open, and this like, whole mess of crap came out. Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can't admit that there's a teeny tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?

ROSS: There might be, a teeny, tiny, possibility.

PHOEBE: I can't believe you caved.

ROSS: What?

PHOEBE: You just abandoned your whole belief system. I mean, before, I didn't agree with you, but at least I respected you. How, how, how are you going to go into work tomorrow? How, how are you going to face the other science guys? How, how are you going to face yourself? Oh! That was fun. So who's hungry?

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I do not believe I am reading anything into that particular verse.  In both Catholic and Protestant religions that I have been associated with believe ascension to be of the physical body.  My grandmother's physical body (both of them) are in the same cemetery in CT.  Where their soul is, I do not know.... :)

 

Believe me what I say I mean absolutely no disrespect, but the Catholic religion teaches and practices many things that the Bible actually forbids, such as the use of idols (IE: the statues of Mary found in almost any Catholic church)  and praying to anyone except God through Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 2:5 says There is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus.That said, another verse (not mentioned by Catweazle) that contradicts the belief that any part of deceased humans go to Heaven (or Hell) is Ecclesiastics 9:5, which states The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all. They are not receiving any reward in Heaven, nor are they being punished in Hell, as they are aware of nothing at all. Beside, the dead going to Heaven or Hell would nullify the need for their resurrection & judgement. 

 

As for the "Friends" argument, read Isiah 40:22, which says There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the Earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers. The Bible stated that the Earth is circular long before scientists "realized" it.. 

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Believe me what I say I mean absolutely no disrespect, but the Catholic religion teaches and practices many things that the Bible actually forbids,

Matthew 23:9 KJV  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 

And what do Catholics call their priests....

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For all those that believe dead people are in heaven, please provide biblical evidence.

 

For all those that believe dead people are in hell, please provide biblical evidence.

 

For all those that believe in infant baptism, please provide biblical evidence.

 

For all those that believe Jesus had long hair, please provide biblical evidence.

 

For all those that believe the Kingdom of God is here now, please provide biblical evdence.

 

For those that believe the teachings of their Christian Churches, you will doubt the truth.

 

The Bible is the worlds best selling book, yet it is the least understood, especially by the churches of Christendom.

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Believe me what I say I mean absolutely no disrespect, but the Catholic religion teaches and practices many things that the Bible actually forbids, such as the use of idols (IE: the statues of Mary found in almost any Catholic church)  and praying to anyone except God through Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 2:5 says There is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus.That said, another verse (not mentioned by Catweazle) that contradicts the belief that any part of deceased humans go to Heaven (or Hell) is Ecclesiastics 9:5, which states The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all. They are not receiving any reward in Heaven, nor are they being punished in Hell, as they are aware of nothing at all. Beside, the dead going to Heaven or Hell would nullify the need for their resurrection & judgement. 

 

As for the "Friends" argument, read Isiah 40:22, which says There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the Earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers. The Bible stated that the Earth is circular long before scientists "realized" it.. 

 

No disrespect at all was taken as I have issues with Catholicism that I won't even get into.  I was merely referencing what the word "ascension" generally means.  As I do not know what truths many posters follow, I made a broad statement generalizing religions as Catholics/Protestants.  My favorite verse is John 14:6 in which Jesus states I am the way, the truth and the life.  No man cometh unto the Father but by me.

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about nullifying the need for resurrection and judgment.  Could you please expound on it?

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No disrespect at all was taken as I have issues with Catholicism that I won't even get into.  I was merely referencing what the word "ascension" generally means.  As I do not know what truths many posters follow, I made a broad statement generalizing religions as Catholics/Protestants.  My favorite verse is John 14:6 in which Jesus states I am the way, the truth and the life.  No man cometh unto the Father but by me.

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about nullifying the need for resurrection and judgment.  Could you please expound on it?

 

If, when we die, we we go to Heaven (or Hell), we would not only have already been judged, but would also be receiving the reward or punishment based on that judgement. If that were the case, what reason would there be for a resurrection & judgement day? I won't even go into the lack of Biblical evidence for Hell (as a place of punishment).

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 atheists welcome. Even if you consider the Bible fiction we can still discuss the intended meaning.There

 

There is no intended meaning to discuss or speculate on.

The Holy Bible is dogmatic and absolute. Either you embrace it totally or reject it.

It's a great sin to doubt and discuss it, because is the word of GOD!

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 I just got through watching part 4.

To ME it seems closer to what I've learned

 EXCEPT

Where Jesus seems surprised to learn about John the Baptist AND about HIS own death.

I believe JESUS had ALWAYS known about HIS life on earth.

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There is no intended meaning to discuss or speculate on.

The Holy Bible is dogmatic and absolute. Either you embrace it totally or reject it.

It's a great sin to doubt and discuss it, because is the word of GOD!

 

You say one should totally embrace the dogma of the Bible. The problem is.... what is one embracing?

 

The Bible is the word of God, and God's word is true. Yet you only need to look at the state of the Christendom to see a disagreeing divided belief system.

 

Catholics do not embrace the same dogma as Protestants. Baptists do not embrace the same dogma as Methodists and so on.

 

My point to the athiest, was that the story that God tells in scripture, is not the same as the story all the divided churches argue over.

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 I just got through watching part 4.

To ME it seems closer to what I've learned

 EXCEPT

Where Jesus seems surprised to learn about John the Baptist AND about HIS own death.

I believe JESUS had ALWAYS known about HIS life on earth.

 That gave me pause also. 

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