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Aliens!

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Yes when the astronomer/scientist announces they discovered life elsewhere in the cosmos, it will be a momentous day. They'll get the Nobel prize, and no doubt a planet, or solar system named after them. What doubters are failing to take into account, is the amount of people and effort that is being dedicated towards this goal, also (if we don't destroy our own habitat first!), unlimited time to achieve this. Why else would scientists be working on such projects as developing a type of 'warp drive'! If I was offered the opportunity to become an explorer of distant galaxies, I'd say YES! I have thought about the analogy, of explorers reaching the Americas. I bet many in the old world considered them 'fantasists', but some people are just open minded, and willing to take risks!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdaMI2wnVBg   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZXmIkwQbjQ  Some people find science/invention/exploration/discovery exciting, and they have not only changed the World(you wouldn't be reading this, without them), but have changed the way we perceive ourselves!

great links, the one about the warp drive is awesome, lets hope it doesn't take to long for them to work it all out, and like you, if I was offered the chance to go in to space, i'd be there in a heartbeat :)

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I don't recall any of you saying why you think that humans are so special that only we can exist, all I've read is, where's the proof, and it's all fantasy, it's like a broken record!

 

 

  Unless you can find proof, then it is still a fantasy...tasy...tasy...tasy !

 

Yes when the astronomer/scientist announces they discovered life elsewhere in the cosmos, it will be a momentous day. They'll get the Nobel prize, and no doubt a planet, or solar system named after them. What doubters are failing to take into account, is the amount of people and effort that is being dedicated towards this goal, also (if we don't destroy our own habitat first!), unlimited time to achieve this. Why else would scientists be working on such projects as developing a type of 'warp drive'! If I was offered the opportunity to become an explorer of distant galaxies, I'd say YES! I have thought about the analogy, of explorers reaching the Americas. I bet many in the old world considered them 'fantasists', but some people are just open minded, and willing to take risks!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdaMI2wnVBg   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZXmIkwQbjQ  Some people find science/invention/exploration/discovery exciting, and they have not only changed the World(you wouldn't be reading this, without them), but have changed the way we perceive ourselves!

GAQO,

 Thank you for your links !

Your information is always interesting.

Not enough to change my mind, but interesting.

 

After reading arguments from both sides it always seems amazing to me how religious people are "certain" of how things are while people who use science mostly talk about how things "might" or "could" be, and try to prove if their theories are correct or incorrect. Interesting indeed that religious people would acuse scientists of fantasizing when there isn't any proof about the existance of God either. And before anybody gets mad, the concept that it is not certain if God exists or not, is based on religion itself. That's why it's called faith, and that is why accepting whether what the Bible says is true or not is a choice, and not a certainty. In science, however, there are things that are proven and things that aren't, and things that are close to being proven. The proven things are not open to discussion since they are alerady known. However I've heard more than once people say they don't believe in science. How can absolute proof be refuted? And how can conjecture not be?

 CARLOS,

 Whether you believe in GOD (you brought up religion and GOD so I'm not breaking my promise), aliens, or both, it ALL boils down to faith !

If you read in the New York Times that NASA had an alien that was captured, you would tend to believe it, right?

Well I have read a book that tells me for "certain" how things are.

And the book was finished almost 2,000 years ago. 

So I tend to believe it !

 

 I never said that I don't believe in science.

You ask "how can absolute proof be refuted ?"

My answer is that it CAN'T !

BUT if there is absolutly NO PROOF that aliens and/or life exist ANYWHERE else, then those claims can be easily refute!! 

Edited by walnutcowboy

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Oh, I agree about the aliens. If NASA said they had captured an alien, I wouldn't believe it unless some independent tests were conducted, that corroborated the fact that said creature was an alien. I will not go into the science of it because I don't exactly know what tests would need to be conducted, but if said tests were performed, and explained to those of us not present, then I wouldn't need to believe or not believe, because I would know. While I understand your arguments against the existence of aliens, the same thing can be said of the Bible. Let's not get into the argument of specific instances in which science contradicts the Bible, because I believe we already did that in another thread, but the fact of the matter is that science has a methodology to prove or disprove certain theories, while religion has to be accepted at face value.  I believe the key is keeping an open mind, an accepting that some things we know, some we don't and some we can't know...

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Oh, I agree about the aliens. If NASA said they had captured an alien, I wouldn't believe it unless some independent tests were conducted, that corroborated the fact that said creature was an alien. I will not go into the science of it because I don't exactly know what tests would need to be conducted, but if said tests were performed, and explained to those of us not present, then I wouldn't need to believe or not believe, because I would know. While I understand your arguments against the existence of aliens, the same thing can be said of the Bible. Let's not get into the argument of specific instances in which science contradicts the Bible, because I believe we already did that in another thread, but the fact of the matter is that science has a methodology to prove or disprove certain theories, while religion has to be accepted at face value.  I believe the key is keeping an open mind, an accepting that some things we know, some we don't and some we can't know...

 Your statement deserves a highly sough after and wildly unknown WCSOAP (Walnut Cowboys Seal Of Approved Post) !

This should be accepted answer to no matter what you believe !

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 Let's not get into the argument of specific instances in which science contradicts the Bible

 

Contradictions is an interesting subject.... Contradiction is generally the result of failure to agree on the true context of the subject matter. So, it's better to stick to the known facts. The known facts on the topic of alien life, is that science has no proof of it.

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When it comes the possibility of the existince of Aliens, I use this quote from the movie Contact:

 

I'll tell you one thing about the universe, though. The universe is a pretty big place. It's bigger than anything anyone has ever dreamed of before. So if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space. Right?

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When it comes the possibility of the existince of Aliens, I use this quote from the movie Contact:

 

I'll tell you one thing about the universe, though. The universe is a pretty big place. It's bigger than anything anyone has ever dreamed of before. So if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space. Right?

 Just because "it's bigger than anything anyone ever dreamed of before" doesn't mean there HAS to be life elsewhere.

If just having a lot of space means there HAS to be alien life, why doesn't someone start at their local beach with a microscope and start looking for alien life on each grain of sand?

 If it comes to the fact that there are no aliens on ANY of the grains of sand, doesn't that mean it's "an awful waste of space"?

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There's no argument there! You can't compare a grain of sand to a planet, does not compute!!!! 6367405969_0f1ba8bb99_z.jpg 2011-07-15-Lifes-A-Beach.jpg

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Here is the Wiki article on the Alcubierre metric, that the guy in gaqo's YouTube videos is researching. In the article, if you scroll down to mass-energy requirements, there is a mention of Harold White. That is the "Sonny" White in the video. For more specifics, you can check out the links in the notes section. The problem with most of those articles and papers is the included math. If anyone wishes, I can try to metaphorically describe the math, for those who can't follow it.

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There's no argument there! You can't compare a grain of sand to a planet, does not compute!!!! 6367405969_0f1ba8bb99_z.jpg 2011-07-15-Lifes-A-Beach.jpg

 If one can think out(er space) and large, why can't one think In(erspace) and small?

I was kinda-sorta thinking of the end of MEN IN BLACK (2?).

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There's no argument there! You can't compare a grain of sand to a planet, does not compute!!!!  

 

 

There are more atoms in a glass of water than there are grains of sand on Earth.... A grain of sand is huge mega area in comparison to an atom!

 

How many atoms are in a grain of sand?

How many atoms are in a grain of sand?

This is an interesting question. Let's see how we can figure it out.

We can start by asking, what is sand made of? It turns out that sand is made up of lots of different ingredients, but the main ingredient in most sand is silicon dioxide, SiO2, also known as silica. Other ingredients in sand can include calcium, potassium, and sodium, but it's mostly silica, so let's just ignore the other stuff.

Now we need to figure out how much SiO2 weighs. Here we need to know about something called Avogadro's constant. This is a big number - about 602,214,179,000,000,000,000,000 or just short of a 600 sextillion! Scientists use this number, along with a property of atoms called their molecular weight, to determine the weight in grams of this many atoms.

The molecular weight can be found in the periodic table. There, we can look up the atomic mass of silicon (symbol Si; it's 28) and of oxygen (symbol O; it's 16) and then deduce (to a good approximation) the atomic mass of SiO2: 60. We now know that 60 grams of sand contain 600 sextillion SiO2 molecules.

So now all we need to figure out is how much a gram of sand weighs, and then we can use that to figure out how many molecules are in our grain of sand. If you look at grains sand, you'll find that it is all sorts of irregular shapes and a large variety of sizes. However, a good approximation is that a grain of sand is about 1 mm in size, and that it's a cube. Now if we have a really sensitive scale, we can weigh the grain of sand and determine its mass that way.

A more accurate way would be to take a box of known size (say a cube of one meter on its side) and then weigh that. We now know the density (mass per unity volume), which is about 2.5 grams per cubic centimeter. Above we determined that our grain is about a cubic millimeter in volume, so we can use that to estimate the mass of our grain of sand (about 2.5 thousandths of a gram - it's very light, as we already know!)

Using these two facts, we can calculate that the number of molecules is approximately 2.2 x 1019 atoms - 22,000,000,000,000,000,000! This is a huge number, but it turns out it is smaller than the number of solutions to a 9x9 Sudoku grids (7 sextillion, about 300 times more!) Even though the grain of sand looks tiny, since atoms are so much smaller, a small grain of sand contains an almost unimaginably large number of atoms.

Edited by Catweazle

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@walnutcowboy There is that analogy, 'finding another planet with life, is like going to a specific beach in Australia, and locating that one grain of sand'!  I can't remember the end of Men in Black. In fact I think most TV is so dumbed down, it's hardly worth watching. I did see a wonderful film called 'Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter....and Spring', about a Buddhist master, who watches, and teaches his young apprentice about life, while they live on a floating monastery. I also saw another gem, 'Cave of Forgotten Dreams' a documentary by Werner Herzog, about 32,000 year old cave paintings in the Chauvet Caves, France. photo2b.jpg  caveart-48-49.jpg And my point is, if artists of that era can depict animals which such accuracy. Then what are they depicting in these paintings? old_grey%5B1%5D.jpg Ancient-Alien-Pictographs_photo_medium.j Wandjina.jpg   

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 @ GAQO,

The saying about finding that certain grain of sand was pretty much my point.

 

As far as the alien drawing...what better place to describe ones own NIGHTMARE then in the Cave Of Forgotten DREAMS.

Ancient man had no way of knowing how to explain where his dreams came from or what they meant, so what better way to remember them than to paint them on his bedroom wall?

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I withhold judgment on whether I actually believe in them or not, although I think I'd be more surprised if there weren't aliens than if there were. It's certainly a possibility, considering that there are 100 billion galaxies in our universe each with hundreds of millions, in fact billions, of stars.

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Okay where do you stand on the existence of Aliens. I don't believe we have any evidence, unless anyone knows different(sources please). What I find interesting, is that for centuries, humans have invented hundreds of different aliens (on Star Trek!), in books, and films(from E.T. to the Alien Franchise). Which of these could be possible?

The human race of Earth is part of a whole Federation of people called the Lyrans.

 

There are human civilizations in the Lyra System, Orion System, Andromeda System, and our own Sol System.

 

NASA is keeping a lid on all of it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Adamski

 

George Adamski

 

There is life on Venus, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and Nibiru.

 

Mercury and Mars had nuclear wars in their past and are now uninhabitable except underground.

 

The Ancient Astronauts did have nukes !!!!

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There is life on Venus, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and Nibiru.

 

 

I think most will agree that there is not.... Even those that believe in the alien posibility would not stoop to such absurdity.

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@Geniocrat The more I look the more I find! Yesterday a programme pointed out that a star, made from hydrogen, then goes on through a succession of nucleus-nucleus fusions to create all the elements required for complex life. When it goes supernova, it blasts these elements across the solar system, and as they form planets those elements are available, across the cosmos. It also show that life exists as bacteria in the darkest of underground caves, oxygen free, under toxic water.  http://www.livescience.com/3419-caves-reveal-evolution-ancient-microbes.html  So basic life can form in the most hostile environment, on any planet with water(as long as it's the right distance from the sun, and has enough gravity to retain the water and atmosphere). Using the elements(for humans; O,C,H,N,Ca,P,K,S,Na,Cl,Mg,Fe,Zn.), complex life can then form, evolve!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGp-BgNa7jg

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One finds what one wants to find!!

Really Catweazle, that's all you've got!  Water seems to have been engineered to produce life, it's the perfect medium; the anomalous expansion that protects life in cold environments, the way it forms a randon network meaning it can dissolve a wide range of substances. The bacterial life found in deep caves is extracting elements from the rock, inorganic becomes organic life. They've even found life, travelling through space, much like our own species, traverse the oceans. @walnutcowboy..... let's have an intermission break. l heard this today, perfect autunm song!   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqyx4TW4Ptw

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Really Catweazle, that's all you've got!  Water seems to have been engineered to produce life, it's the perfect medium; the anomalous expansion that protects life in cold environments, the way it forms a randon network meaning it can dissolve a wide range of substances. The bacterial life found in deep caves is extracting elements from the rock, inorganic becomes organic life. They've even found life, travelling through space, much like our own species, traverse the oceans. @walnutcowboy..... let's have an intermission break. l heard this today, perfect autunm song!   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqyx4TW4Ptw

 GAQO,

 Thanks for the song, it's not one I hear very often.

There is ALWAYS time to hear good music !

 And now that break time is over...

 

@walnutcowboy There is that analogy, 'finding another planet with life, is like going to a specific beach in Australia, and locating that one grain of sand'!  I can't remember the end of Men in Black. In fact I think most TV is so dumbed down, it's hardly worth watching. I did see a wonderful film called 'Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter....and Spring', about a Buddhist master, who watches, and teaches his young apprentice about life, while they live on a floating monastery. I also saw another gem, 'Cave of Forgotten Dreams' a documentary by Werner Herzog, about 32,000 year old cave paintings in the Chauvet Caves, France. photo2b.jpg  caveart-48-49.jpg And my point is, if artists of that era can depict animals which such accuracy. Then what are they depicting in these paintings? old_grey%5B1%5D.jpg Ancient-Alien-Pictographs_photo_medium.j Wandjina.jpg   

 I notice that the top couple of pictures that they show the animals moving, fighting, etc.

But ALL of "aliens" seem to be in "freeze frame" with NONE of them moving in any way.

And if you look at...

 

http://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-folklore/mysterious-aboriginal-rock-art-wandjinas-extraterrestrial-or-not-00701   Concidering all the thousands of aliens imagined throughout science fiction, this image has persisted for tens of thousands of years!!  Wandjinas-extraterrestrials.jpgcp_bigge36.jpgWandjinaAboriginalArt450.jpg

 The top picture above, (to me at least) they appear to be "ghosts".

 

 So (in my opinion,) I'm thinking that instead of being aliens they could be the newly dead.

They could have been mummified, which might explain seeing no mouth.

Egyptians of old used to put monies in the newly dead eyes to pay for the trip to the next world,which might explain big eyes.

The abundance of snakes would appear (to me) to be another sign of death, since the snake sheds its skin, it could be explained as shedding the body and going into the next life.

 And to maybe explain this bottom picture, a couple (notice the lizard and the turtle between their legs) have been mummified and then dressed (who wants to go to the next life naked?), the other lights might be those spirits taking the couple to their next stop !

 

 All of the above is just my OPINION, and is based on what little I know/remember about past history.

 I guess all I'm saying is.... it COULD have happened !

 

PS,GAQO, thanks again for the song !!

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@ walnutcowboy of course your explanation is equally valid, we'll never know unless we make contact, and the aliens tell us they have visited us at different times. What's interesting about those Chauvet Cave paintings is that lions,bears,hippos and rhinoceros,as well as wild horses lived in Europe(unless the artists were remembering another place), and the quality of the art work. I'm not sure what to make of the Aboriginal art. I have studied their art; 'The Dreaming focuses on the activities and epic deeds of the supernatural beings and creator ancestors.....who in both human and non human form, travelled across the unshaped world, creating everthing in it and laying down the laws of social and religious behaviour'(Wally Caruana). The myth and image of 'supernatural beings', has existed as long as humans themselves. One day, future archaeologists will wonder how the Beach Boys managed to create such an amazing sound on their early recordings, using just one microphone and a four track recorder!  

Edited by gaqo

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@GAQO,

 

 The BEACH BOYS are a wonder even now, when it comes to their music!

 

 Now back to (more less then more) the topic.

Speaking of ancient animals, living in So. Ca. I've been to the La Brea Tar pits several times.

They have a great collection of bones of early animals.

 What most people aren't aware of is that there is a huge dig, further south (not TOO far from where I live), that has one of (from what I've been told) largest Mammoth collections in the U.S.

It's on private property so not too many people know about it, but it's an amazing place.

 

 I hope the following will not be considered to me breaking my promise, but (in my opinion) the BIBLE talks about Dinosaurs(?).

I'll leave out anything that doesn't have to do directly about the description.

 JOB 40: 15-24)

15) Look at the Behemoth...he eats grass like an ox

16) See now,his strength is in his hips, and his power is in his stomach muscles.

17) He moves his tail like a ceder....

18) His bones are like beams of bronze,his ribs are like bars of iron.

21) He lies...in a covert of reeds and march.

22) ...the willows by the brook surround him.

23) Indeed the river may rage,yet he is not disturbed.

 Could this not be something like a Brontosaurs?

What it DOESN'T sound like is ANYTHING that is still around.

 

 The next example is too long for me to quote ALL the interesting aspects, so I''ll just mention only a few REALLY important points.

JOB 41:1-34

1) Can you draw out Leviathan...

13)His rows of scales are his pride...

18) He sneezings flash forth light...

19)Out of his mouth go burning lights; sparks of fire shoot out.

20) Smoke goes out of his nostrils, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes.

 Doesn't this sound perhaps like a fire breathing dragon?

 

 In either case, neither animal is still around.

In both cases JOB is saying "look there and see" he is NOT saying "imagine this or that".

So who's to say what used to exist that are no longer around?

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Yes, Russians talk of perfectly preserved mammoths being found as galaciers melt(as long as they get there before the wolves!).  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOFf1wyx91M  One of the supernatural beings the Aboriginies refer to as 'the lightening men'. I just think it's great to be able to get an incite into a lost time/place, through these artifacts that remain.

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