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Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread


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I think its kind of unfair to someone who voices his opinions without calling out names and gives reasons for opinions to be asked to not post in this thread...just because they don't like the couple.....

 

anyway its Tripper who rules ....

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Well you are welcome to you minority opinion. There are more people who think Sheldon is an insufferable ass then think Leonard is passive aggressive. As to comparing him to Charlie Sheen, all I can say is ask if you actually ever watcihed TAHM. Please tell me does anyone on this topic really think that Leonard and Charlie are the same.

The only similarity I can come up with is that neither of them get along with their mothers. :)

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BTW I don't know of a court in the country that would seriously bring a man up for rape when the women goes to his house, tells him she is going to have her way with him, then drags him to bed to initiate sex.  Just would not happen.  Also, the whole drunk thing and consent only goes so far, with a jury.

it down how far the women/man (however unlikely.) wants to push one of my friends is in jail because of that Bs? So don't tell me that it won't happen. It does and will continue to happen.

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Umm what

Leonard basically raped Penny (S3 Lunar Excitation) yes it played off as Penny jumping him. But the problem is that Penny was to drunk to consent! Meanwhile Leonard was sober. Leonard had a moral obligation to say no, but instead he took advantage of the situation.

He told Penny that everything he's ever done for her was because of sex ("The Ornithophobia Diffusion" ) and then went onto imagine their relationship as being, argue, makeup sex, argue, makeup sex (recombination hypothesis)

Used his mothers treatment to get. Penny to submit to him

Tried to force an I Love you

Showed the boat Penny's topless video (which wasn't cool not matter how you spin it, yes it's. Penny's fault for doing the video. But Leonard has a the obligation of being penny's boyfriend to NOT go flaunt around. ESPICIALLY if loves her)

He stabbed Sheldon in the back (Electric can opener fluctuation) AFTER Howard pointed how idiotic it was to go to the Arctic with Sheldon. Broke the bro code (dating Priya and sniping Stephanie)

The list goes on of Leonard being a jerk and an unsympathetic a-hole

Yes Penny's not Mary Sue character. But at least she doesn't knowingly hide behind a passive aggressive comments and actions

 

Besides being one of the most myopic posts I have ever read, your first statement is possibly one of the most ignorant things I have ever read on the entire forum.  Good lord.  While we're at it, let's have Penny sue Sheldon for sexual harassment when he "accidentally" grabbed her boob and later peaked at her naked.

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it down how far the women/man (however unlikely.) wants to push one of my friends is in jail because of that Bs? So don't tell me that it won't happen. It does and will continue to happen.

I think the legal argument in this case would turn on the facts of the matter. It's a sitcom. That kind of legally distinguishes it. And it takes a really black view of the character to go there, considering the circumstances as a whole. It's not valid to make such a comparison because we know so much about the lives of these two and their motives. They are literally destined for each other (unless Aaron drops a clanger). And if people can't have drunk sex at all, then life as we know it is over. But it's a thought. Interesting.

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Thanks!!!!  Too much Sheldon in the second one, though.

 

Now do you understand why I was quiet?  shit-hits-the-fan.gif

 

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I would like to bring forth a few facts.

 

Raj knew that Priya was returning to India.

 

Raj knew that Leonard loved Penny from the moment he saw her.

 

Raj knew that Penny considered breaking up with Leonard was a big mistake.

 

Knowing all this, Raj proceeded to get Penny drunk enough to lose her memory of events, and then tried to have sex with her.

 

Can I tell you how to feel about these things? No. I can only tell you how I feel. And now I'm done.

 

BTW, Molero can say whatever he wants, last time I checked, Chuckles was still in charge.

When I look at Lenny everything tells me to be calm they are in a great place. This is just a bump in the road. Then it always comes back to me thinking what you just ended with. Chuck Lorre still is in charge and then I get a cold shiver up my spine. Having said that I really am hoping this cliffhanger is going to end up good for Lenny. An engagement during the February sweeps is what I'm hoping for.

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Besides being one of the most myopic posts I have ever read, your first statement is possibly one of the most ignorant things I have ever read on the entire forum.  Good lord.  While we're at it, let's have Penny sue Sheldon for sexual harassment when he "accidentally" grabbed her boob and later peaked at her naked.

 

You make a good point, but lets really look at the accusation, you were answering of Leonard raping Penny.   Penny didn't press charges or accuse Leonard of anything, even after she was sober and knew what happened.  As for example of Sheldon, since he actually grabbed her boob, that would be sexual assault not just harassment.  And get Penny and Amy for sexual assault for kissing Sheldon in "Game Night", he was, after all, telling them to stop.   Leonard, for grabbing Amy's boob when she was drunk.  Sheldon, for harassment and indecent exposure for taking his pants off.  Raj and Leonard for procuring a prostitute or Howard for accepting a known hooker.  How about we get Penny and Alicia for assault and battery for their fight.  Same with Leonard and Sheldon and their fight.  Amy for assault and Bernie for grand theft auto in "Parking Lot" or any of the other myriad of examples throughout this series.  It's silly to try to pick out one example of a crime and scream about it, while ignoring all the other examples. 

Edited by Tensor
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Not to beat a dead horse, but there is a huge difference from being drunk and UNABLE to give consent and being drunk and giving consent.  If at any time, Penny lost consciousness, then that would be a different story all together.

 

But I think this just might be too "serious" of a subject to talk about here ...  

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Actually, if he grabbed her boob, that would be sexual assault not just harassment.  And get Penny and Amy for sexual assault for kissing Sheldon in "Game Night", he was, after all, telling them to stop.   Leonard, for grabbing Amy's boob when she was drunk.  Sheldon, for harassment and indecent exposure for taking his pants off.  Raj and Leonard for procuring a prostitute or Howard for accepting a known hooker.  How about we get Penny and Alicia for assault and battery for their fight.  Same with Leonard and Sheldon.  Amy for assault and Bernie for grand theft auto in "Parking Lot" or any of the other myriad of examples throughout this series.  

 

Really good point, we could put them all in jail if you want.  Real people do this all the time and no one goes to jail.  Rape is a very serious thing and it shouldn't be belittled by comparing what Penny did drunk with Leonard as rape when she didn't think it was.

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You make a good point, but lets really look at the accusation, you were answering of Leonard raping Penny.   Penny didn't press charges or accuse Leonard of anything, even after she was sober and knew what happened.  As for example of Sheldon, since he actually grabbed her boob, that would be sexual assault not just harassment.  And get Penny and Amy for sexual assault for kissing Sheldon in "Game Night", he was, after all, telling them to stop.   Leonard, for grabbing Amy's boob when she was drunk.  Sheldon, for harassment and indecent exposure for taking his pants off.  Raj and Leonard for procuring a prostitute or Howard for accepting a known hooker.  How about we get Penny and Alicia for assault and battery for their fight.  Same with Leonard and Sheldon and their fight.  Amy for assault and Bernie for grand theft auto in "Parking Lot" or any of the other myriad of examples throughout this series.  It's silly to try to pick out one example of a crime and scream about it, while ignoring all the other examples.

Very well done Tensor!

This a sitcom, yes the writers test how far they can go for a laugh. And yes, each of the examples in and of themselves in a real world would be very serious issues. However, we do need to keep in mind, good or bad, (and that's is entirely subjective to which character / couple you ship) it's still a comedy on TV. It's not real.

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Any time your partner sleeps with a friend it is a double slap in the face from both your partner and your friend. However this wasn't the first slap in the face Penny gave Leonard. The Dave Underhill affair was a really  kicking Leonard to the curb.  From the pilot on the writers have painted Penny as a Loose Party Girl (slut).  

 

The silver lining for Leonard might be that Reformed Whores are suppose to make the best wives. However I personally would have a big problem if my GF slept with a good friend.

 

 

In Edit

 

Let add this season the writers have added to Penny's loose moral by a marriage to Zack and a topless movie. Plus the penny Sheldon Come on in the Laundry room where she only has short shorts and Bra on. BTW as a dirty old man I loved that scene

.

 

I've been debated on whether or not I should respond to this, but here goes. Leonard was in a relationship with one of his best friend's sister at the time it occurred, as far as everyone was concerned Leonard and Penny were over, so he has no reason to hold that against her. They're both adults, and Leonard has never followed the so-called "bro code", so they can do what they want. Same with Dave Underhill. At the time that happened Leonard and Penny were supposedly fine to stay friends after a crappy date in 2.01, so she began seeing a guy who showed interest in her. So I'm not clear on what the issue with him was. 

 

Reformed whores? Really? We've seen Leonard have more sex and casual hook-ups than any character on the show by far. While he and Penny were apart, he slept with Priya, Mrs. Lathem, Bernadette's friend Joyce, Dr. Plimpton; and tried with Alice, Leslie, and the FBI agent. Penny only had Zach. So unless she's secretly been having sex for money all these years, she's not a whore. 

 

Not sure how any of those contribute to the idea of Penny's loose morals. The topless scene is something many perfectly decent actresses have done, and the Vegas thing was a very careless error that happened four years ago. Both showed a lot of naivete and shortsightedness on her part, but neither are what I'd consider morally wrong. I personally didn't like the way Leonard showed off the movie for the sake of bragging to his shipmates, but that's just me. It came across as objectifying. 

Edited by DaisyJane

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I personally didn't like the way Leonard showed off the movie for the sake of bragging to his shipmates, but that's just me. It came across as objectifying. 

 

I'll disagree with this part.  Showing off because your girlfriend was in a  movie is not something I would consider objectifying.  If I was dating say, Jamie Lee Curtis(I know, very unlikey)  and I show the movie "Trading Places", "Love Letters", "Stroke Off" and any of her other early movies, saying proudly that she's my girlfriend, is that objectifying her?

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I got the objectifying, a little. But it's a movie. It's hard not to say that we choose actors for their physical characteristics and if he had another example of her acting with her clothes on, he might of used that. His choices were constrained. He was proud and she was topless and she consented to being in the movie and it was out there and she wasn't shamed at all, or when informed by Sheldon, ashamed. He was proud of her work and her looks and trying to bask in that a bit. So not a sex tape deal.

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I'll disagree with this part. Showing off because your girlfriend was in a movie is not something I would consider objectifying. If I was dating say, Jamie Lee Curtis(I know, very unlikey) and I show the movie "Trading Places", "Love Letters", "Stroke Off" and any of her other early movies, saying proudly that she's my girlfriend, is that objectifying her?

It was just the way it came across, specifically that he chose that topless scene seemed objectifying. It didn't bother me much, but that's the feeling I got. Again, this is just me. I understand the point you're making as well. That was really just an aside, my main point was to dismantle the idea that Penny was somehow a dirty whore.

Edited by DaisyJane

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It was just the way it came across, specifically that he chose that topless scene seemed objectifying. It didn't bother me much, but that's the feeling I got. Again, this is just me. I understand the point you're making as well. That was really just an aside, my main point was to dismantle the idea that Penny was somehow a dirty whore.

I think that was the only scene of the movie that she was in.

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I'm not sure but Jerry Hall's quote might be apposite here

“My mother said it was simple to keep a man, you must be a maid in the living room, a cook in the kitchen and a whore in the bedroom. I said I'd hire the other two and take care of the bedroom bit”.

It doesn't really reflect well on men, Penny, or maybe Jerry Hall... or me come to think of it. But she was talking about a monogamous relationship and this was back in the days before the internet dropped debauchery into people's laps. I like to think she meant well. Certainly she was taking charge. I look forward to being educated.

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Leonard basically raped Penny (S3 Lunar Excitation) yes it played off as Penny jumping him. But the problem is that Penny was to drunk to consent! Meanwhile Leonard was sober. Leonard had a moral obligation to say no, but instead he took advantage of the situation.

 

Legally speaking:

“The fact that alcohol is consumed voluntarily would have made it not rape in many places. These days the norm is, it doesn’t matter whether they chose to drink or whether someone spiked their drink, it’s whether they’re capable of consenting.”

 

In this instance, Penny was clearly capable of consenting and in fact, she was the instigator to the event. So the threshold of rape was not met. Leonard didn’t come knocking on her door asking for sex. Pursuing Leonard in such a way, taking advantage of him, just weeks after breaking his heart because he dared to say ‘I love you’ and then telling him the very next morning that their hook-up was a mistake (he clearly saw it as an invitation to reconnect), breaking his heart twice, made her actions that more heinous.

 

He told Penny that everything he's ever done for her was because of sex ("The Ornithophobia Diffusion" ) and then went onto imagine their relationship as being, argue, makeup sex, argue, makeup sex (recombination hypothesis)

 

There is an old saying: ‘Women give sex for love, Men give love for sex’ and in this situation, we were just seeing this dynamic played out. When in a relationship, the man is often thinking of ways to get/keep his woman happy so he will get sex. And Penny knows this and clearly sees this as a bargaining chip because when Amy was asking to Penny ‘how do I get Sheldon to treat me better’ Penny responded with ‘well usually the first move out of the gate is to withhold sex’ – clearly she is aware of and a player with this dynamic.

 

In addition, you are discounting their histories and they are a both a tad damaged. Penny had a father that loved her but never accepted her (calling her Slugger, stopped playing catch with her when she developed breasts, sending her a baseball glove for Christmas). As for Leonard, he led a loveless childhood where his mother (seemingly) didn’t want him, never hugged him so he had to build a machine, experimented on him, and actively (maybe purposely) humiliates him. Both of them are trying to carve out a real relationship for the first time in their lives, unguided. There will be slip-ups along the way.

 

Used his mothers treatment to get. Penny to submit to him

 

The second he found out about it, Leonard begged Penny 1) not to read it and 2) find another book. When she didn’t acquiesce, he forfeited and lowered his position to a ‘just don’t talk to me about it’. Seeing how he was so distressed by it, you’d think Penny would just get another book but she didn’t. And then she couldn’t follow his fallback request by simply not talking to him about it (which I think was a good thing when the teasing comment in the books about wearing make-up and a bra was fully revealed, it made Bev look that much more monstrous). It was Penny who first brought up the issue of using sex to make Leonard feel better. And Leonard ran with that. And rightly, he did admit that he was ‘not proud’ of what he was doing. And you cannot argue that Penny’s revenge was thermonuclear and it was clear that Leonard was taught a resounding lesson. And if I may add, I doubt Penny submits to anyone.  

 

Tried to force an I Love you

 

Pfffffft. You can hardly blame him for that. Leonard clearly thought that the feeling was mutual, He was hurting and wanted to know what Penny thought. But the funny part was, the feeling was mutual but Penny’s demons prevented her from saying it and caused to her flee, which she later amply regretted.

 

Showed the boat Penny's topless video (which wasn't cool not matter how you spin it, yes it's. Penny's fault for doing the video. But Leonard has a the obligation of being penny's boyfriend to NOT go flaunt around. ESPICIALLY if loves her)

 

OK, you are just duplicitous here. You give a pass for Penny for being drunk and soliciting Leonard for sex but he doesn’t get one for one of his drunken actions. Penny, as an adult of legal age, participated in the movie and she didn’t look ‘too drunk to consent’ in that shower scene. He was proud to show off his beautiful girlfriend.

 

He stabbed Sheldon in the back (Electric can opener fluctuation) AFTER Howard pointed how idiotic it was to go to the Arctic with Sheldon.

 

Sigh! Love how the Shennys incessantly play the Arctic Expedition card. Leonard stabbed no one in the back. The fault with Sheldon’s embarrassment after that expedition lies with Sheldon and Sheldon only. Hamerman55 or Tensor explained it wonderfully in a post here awhile ago. Sheldon never ran the calculations on the original data that WAS KEPT – something that would have taken months and a university computer to do. Without doing them, he sent the email out saying he confirmed string theory. That’s where the problem was. Not with Leonard, Howard or Raj. Also, I think it speaks volumes that three men whose mothers never had them tested wanted to kill him. Just goes to show what a very poor leader and how insufferable he was.

 

Broke the bro code (dating Priya

 

When the viewing audience first met Priya, SHE grabbed Leonard and kissed him, unprovoked and without warning, in the hallway. She clearly was the aggressor. As we move forward in the half hour, we learn that they had a relationship when Priya first visited a few years earlier and I find it hard that she wouldn’t be as aggressive with him the first time around as she was with the second.  A beautiful woman throws herself at you and you say ‘No. I made a pinky swear with Howard.’ Riiiight.

 

and sniping Stephanie)

 

Nope. Wrong. Stephanie had absolutely no interest in Howard. She was just there at the university with him so she could drive a car on Mars.

 

The list goes on of Leonard being a jerk and an unsympathetic a-hole

 

Ah, no. There’s only one jerk and asshole here and it’s you, not Leonard. Why are you here anyway? Isn’t there a Shenny haven where all the Shenny gather to rant and crucify Leonard? Go there. That's where we keep our delusional bullshit. 

You said it perfect. People who have such hate for a fictional character, that they write hate fan fiction, have a serious mental problem. They actually hate Leonard, really hate him, yet the first thing they do in their stories is transfer Leonard's qualities to Sheldon. Over the summer they wrote stories on how Penny cheats on Leonard no sooner than he leaves and then his best friend steals his girlfriend without any remorse, and then this toad says Leonard is bad because he broke the bro code. Then they get upset that people call them delusional.

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You said it perfect. People who have such hate for a fictional character, that they write hate fan fiction, have a serious mental problem. They actually hate Leonard, really hate him, yet the first thing they do in their stories is transfer Leonard's qualities to Sheldon. Over the summer they wrote stories on how Penny cheats on Leonard no sooner than he leaves and then his best friend steals his girlfriend without any remorse, and then this toad says Leonard is bad because he broke the bro code. Then they get upset that people call them delusional.

It's like road rage. I wonder how they find the time, but I'm just mildly entertained now, or slightly sad. I got upset by the stories once, hated that everything got twisted, but then realised it doesn't matter to me, because I have canon. And now Aaron.

Something real to worry about. :)

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Having just watched "The Monopolar Expedition" again recently, I was struck by the idea that President Siebert may not have wanted to meet with Sheldon about a trip to the Arctic originally. Sending him to the Arctic may have been another opportunity, oand one to rid himof Sheldon for a couple of months. It doesn't make sense for Sheldon to have written a grant for money to do experiments anyway. He's a theoretical physicist. This would be the sort of thing Leonard would write a grant for. Further, Sheldon would be useless on such an expedition as he isn't an instrument guy. He shouldn't even know what the right signals would be, and such measurements usually take months of data crunching after the data is collected.

One main reason why I'm not worried about a real breakup is that in Season 3, the relationship actually wasn't working. As much as I didn't like the breakup, it made narrative sense. Now, the relationship has been working for almost two seasons, and keeps looking better. In fact, there was no reason to do anything with the relationship at this point, since the season was tooling along quite well. I can't see someone storming into the writers' room yelling "this isn't working", because it is. They could have left the relationship alone, as they have been so good about doing with Shamy. If there was a relationship that needed some action, it is the latter. The only narrative reason to light up Lenny again is because the writers need to upgrade the relationship to further the story they want to tell. The timing also screams "sweeps" and I can't see them breaking Lenny up when they are trying to get the top dollar for the advertising time. Viewership goes up when good things happen to Lenny, in my opinion. Tensor may be able to score that, but that is my gut feeling.

Edited by hamerman55
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 And now Aaron.

Something real to worry about. :)

 

Karen, eyes pinwheels and spinning around in her orbs like a cartoon cat that has been hit in the head with a frying pan and wearing her tin-foil hat, grabs Nogravitasatall by the lapels while muttering 'it's real! Very real! Fear Aaron Takahashi! He's the (voice drops to a dramatic whisper) harbinger! 

 

Karen lets go of lapels and after smoothing them down, wanders back off to her corner while gathering more scraps of tin foil to reinforce her protective hat.

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This could be piling on but the main difference between Drs. Hofstadter and Cooper? At the end of episode 1, while looking at Penny's apartment door Leonard says " our babies will be smart and beautiful " . Sheldon, totally in character would have said. "My babies will be smart and beautiful". Ego, ego , ego.

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I have reread the taping report and I am wondering if that episode is really the start of a breakup or just a break for those two. That last scene with Leonard telling Sheldon that he doesn't know seems pretty serious and I think Sheldon trying to put something on Leonard's back is another stupid attempt to put Sheldon humor in a serious Lenny situation, like how he acted like an ass at the airport last season. I'm thinking the next episode we might not see them together at all and who knows when we will, maybe the sweeps or later.

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I have reread the taping report and I am wondering if that episode is really the start of a breakup or just a break for those two. That last scene with Leonard telling Sheldon that he doesn't know seems pretty serious and I think Sheldon trying to put something on Leonard's back is another stupid attempt to put Sheldon humor in a serious Lenny situation, like how he acted like an ass at the airport last season. I'm thinking the next episode we might not see them together at all and who knows when we will, maybe the sweeps or later.

 

There's simply no reason for a breakup. Leonard did everything to help her with her failed NCIS role and tried to be nice all the time. The statement about the three lines and that it won't be her big break was stupid, but he apologized and she accepted. Then he gave her the Star Wars audition. She wasn't happy about it, but later she realized that he just wanted to be nice. He made clear, that she doesn't have to worry because she has Leonard.

 

Then she proposes, while drunk and sad. He hesitates, because he didn't want to exploit her feelings. So in that case, it's clear that they both want to get married now. So, why break up? We all know how aggressive Penny acts when she is drunk, so I think she will realize when she is sober.

 

What would be the reason for a breakup? "Sorry Leonard, but our relationship isn't working anymore, because you didn't say 'yes' in the first place, when I proposed drunk. But when you proposed in bed, I had every right to flip out." I can't see them breaking up now. Neither Penny or Leonard would ever be happy again. And she didn't give him time to answer. That is the least she should do. Leonard also wanted an answer when he proposed in bed.

 

IF they break up over this, it would make no sense at all.

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