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Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread

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I read this a few days ago and it's bother me for a while and then I remember all the times it was Leonard who supported Penny while they weren't together and it was Sheldon that was constantly degrading Penny and went as far as to say Penny should do porn.

Leonard has been there when no one else was and that's all that counts.

 

 

This has bothered me too.  But I have been wonder WTH is going on with the writers this season.  The North Sea trip turns to nothing, and the next thing we get is them making Leonard seem to tell Penny she is stupid, in the scavenger hunt.  We have the problem with the book and his manipulating her, him pushing too hard for the divorce and then these two last episodes where he is looking bad in his support.  DId they have this much conflict in the whole last season?  And who has been supporting her, Sheldon!   They are changing Loenard's character before our eyes, why?

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I'm pretty sure we don't have to worry about the puzzling Sheldon/Penny alliance that we have seen several times this season, especially in the last episode. Steve Molaro said last summer that this was coming and it is needed for the writers and Leonard and Penny's development.

At the end of season 6, the Lenny were so solid ("Team Hofstadler") the only thing they needed was the final proposal. Sheldon was an irritant to both of them in the final two episodes: 6.23, where both needed to drink to tolerate him and 6.24 where he was treated like a pet who demanded attention, especially in the airport scene. The writers now had a dilemma, if Penny proposes the logical next step for the both of them would be to move away. Why would Penny put up with Leonard having a friend that suggests that she is a Gorilla/blond monkey who has the habits of a prostitute. In seasons prior, they had Penny treat Sheldon like her foster child and she ignored his insults because she is shown to only care about the opinion of Leonard (and sometimes, Bernadette). If the Lenny are married, Leonard would logically move Penny away in a heart beat, which would destroy the original setup of the show. Even Leonard moving into Penny's apartment would mean no more roommate agreement, no Penny specific codicils and would speed up the Shamy since Amy would be the one who would be Sheldon's nanny. They test drove that in season 6.

The writer's solution: change the Sheldon/Penny interaction. In several points in season 7, they have had Sheldon and Penny team up against Leonard and against all previous understanding of the characters, they find some commonality. They have not done this smoothly since they have had to change Sheldon in ways that are not consistent with his past attitudes. The last episodes they bent him like a pretzel. Sheldon calling himself a "dreamer" like Penny is truly laughable. His saying that his wanting to become a physicist was the same as Penny's quest to be a movie star is nonsensical. Sheldon had the obvious ability at a young age, got positive reinforcement from the rest of the science community as a teenager, got two doctorates and a post at one of the most prestigious research facility in the world. At no time was his success in doubt. Penny has no academic training in the arts, has not labored as a working actress in small theater groups, has been rejected almost routinely for 10 years in auditions and is starting over at 28 trying for the pretty young thing parts that are given to women of 18-22. No wonder she is lying about her age on her resume. Sheldon's "dream" was assured. Penny's dream was a non-starter.

Still, they have to make Penny and Sheldon bond or there is no reason to keep the L/P/S dynamic viable. And the writers are loath to change that.

Edited by BangerMain
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Reminds me of a review of "Occupation" that was posted a few days ago on the Crooks & Liars blog. The author devoted nearly the entire article to the Leonard/Penny plot, with maybe a few lines for the B and C plots, and her entire article was dripping with contempt for Leonard (she even admitted she was a Shenny). Pretty disgusting for an "objective" review.

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I'm pretty sure we don't have to worry about the puzzling Sheldon/Penny alliance that we have seen several times this season, especially in the last episode. Steve Molaro said last summer that this was coming and it is needed for the writers and Leonard and Penny's development.

At the end of season 6, the Lenny were so solid ("Team Hofstadler") the only thing they needed was the final proposal. Sheldon was an irritant to both of them in the final two episodes: 6.23, where both needed to drink to tolerate him and 6.24 where he was treated like a pet who demanded attention, especially in the airport scene. The writers now had a dilemma, if Penny proposes the logical next step for the both of them would be to move away. Why would Penny put up with Leonard having a friend that suggests that she is a Gorilla/blond monkey who has the habits of a prostitute. In seasons prior, they had Penny treat Sheldon like her foster child and she ignored his insults because she is shown to only care about the opinion of Leonard (and sometimes, Bernadette). If the Lenny are married, Leonard would logically move Penny away in a heart beat, which would destroy the original setup of the show. Even Leonard moving into Penny's apartment would mean no more roommate agreement, no Penny specific codicils and would speed up the Shamy since Amy would be the one who would be Sheldon's nanny. They test drove that in season 6.

The writer's solution: change the Sheldon/Penny interaction. In several points in season 7, they have had Sheldon and Penny team up against Leonard and against all previous understanding of the characters, they find some commonality. They have not done this smoothly since they have had to change Sheldon in ways that are not consistent with his past attitudes. The last episodes they bent him like a pretzel. Sheldon calling himself a "dreamer" like Penny is truly laughable. His saying that his wanting to become a physicist was the same as Penny's quest to be a movie star is nonsensical. Sheldon had the obvious ability at a young age, got positive reinforcement from the rest of the science community as a teenager, got two doctorates and a post at one of the most prestigious research facility in the world. At no time was his success in doubt. Penny has no academic training in the arts, has not labored as a working actress in small theater groups, has been rejected almost routinely for 10 years in auditions and is starting over at 28 trying for the pretty young thing parts that are given to women of 18-22. No wonder she is lying about her age on her resume. Sheldon's "dream" was assured. Penny's dream was a non-starter.

Still, they have to make Penny and Sheldon bond or there is no reason to keep the L/P/S dynamic viable. And the writers are loath to change that.

 

The "dreamers" line regarding Sheldon's career was regarding his decision to pursue theoretical physics, where most of what he studies will likely never be definitively proven. He was probably encouraged to pursue a more concrete field such as engineering or medicine, a "safer" option, but chose to go after what he wanted instead. The doubt wasn't that he was smart, but rather the field he was devoting those smarts towards. That's how he can understand Penny's decision to take a risk, something Leonard does not do. Whether or not you can equivocate their circumstances is debatable, but the principal is there. Penny has been taking acting classes since S2 and done at least one Community theater production (Streetcar). There is a chance she could make it, and I think she realizes that time is now or never. She understands that it could end badly but hasn't written off the possibility that it could end well. I'm not sure what the writers are doing with Leonard, we know he spent his day at work rehearsing what he was going to tell her, so who knows if he was being supposed to be sincere in anything he said to her at the apartment. 

Edited by DaisyJane

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I'm not sure what the writers are doing with Leonard, we know he spent his day at work rehearsing what he was going to tell her, so who knows if he was being supposed to be sincere in anything he said to her at the apartment. 

 

That is really harsh, why not give him the benefit of the doubt?  That is very similar to saying Penny out and out lied when she told Leonard she wanted his honest opinion, should we really trust anything she's said since then?    I really don't understand why so many seemingly Penny and Leonard fans, denigrate and are out and out nasty  to one or the other in the coupling, especially in this thread where we are supposed to celebrate the coupling.      

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That is really harsh, why not give him the benefit of the doubt?  That is very similar to saying Penny out and out lied when she told Leonard she wanted his honest opinion, should we really trust anything she's said since then?    I really don't understand why so many seemingly Penny and Leonard fans, denigrate and are out and out nasty  to one or the other in the coupling, especially in this thread where we are supposed to celebrate the coupling.      

 

I'd like to believe that he was sincere, but he sounded very convincing in the cafeteria (I actually "awwwed') and we know he didn't mean it then. What could have changed his mind in that short span of time? 

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The "dreamers" line regarding Sheldon's career was regarding his decision to pursue theoretical physics, where most of what he studies will likely never be definitively proven. He was probably encouraged to pursue a more concrete field such as engineering or medicine, a "safer" option, but chose to go after what he wanted instead. The doubt wasn't that he was smart, but rather the field he was devoting those smarts towards. That's how he can understand Penny's decision to take a risk, something Leonard does not do. Whether or not you can equivocate their circumstances is debatable, but the principal is there. Penny has been taking acting classes since S2 and done at least one Community theater production (Streetcar). There is a chance she could make it, and I think she realizes that time is now or never. She understands that it could end badly but hasn't written off the possibility that it could end well. I'm not sure what the writers are doing with Leonard, we know he spent his day at work rehearsing what he was going to tell her, so who knows if he was being supposed to be sincere in anything he said to her at the apartment. 

 

I went back and watched the scene again. Sheldon said, "When I decide I wanted to be a physicist". There were no other qualifiers. Sheldon has never stated anything about attempts to deflect him to be anything else. Indeed he has looked on other jobs besides being a theoretical physicist with haughty derision as if he would never had entertained any notion of being anything than what he is now. He was such a prodigy at a young age the world let him do what ever he wished and he would not have listened to any dissenting voices.

 

The Sheldon before this episode would have insulted Penny's dream belief and been Spock-like about having dreams in the first place. Even Penny answered his little un-Sheldon like monologue with the "I'm going to have to crack the window" joke about leaving him in the car alone. The writers were rushing the bonding moment between them.

 

By the way, Penny's role of Blanche in "A Street Car named Desire" was for her acting class. That is not a resume padding paid gig.

Edited by BangerMain
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That is really harsh, why not give him the benefit of the doubt?  That is very similar to saying Penny out and out lied when she told Leonard she wanted his honest opinion, should we really trust anything she's said since then?    I really don't understand why so many seemingly Penny and Leonard fans, denigrate and are out and out nasty  to one or the other in the coupling, especially in this thread where we are supposed to celebrate the coupling.      

I'm with you on this.

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I think Leonard is being given an unjust hard time, as he is trying to do very difficult things with no help from the group. He's trying to be practical and responsible. His girlfriend is acting irrationally after what appeared to be a career setback, but as we discussed, was not. She then quits her job, then fishes for Leonard's approval. She first says she's thinking about qutting, and when he doesn't immediately support the idea drops the bomb that she already had quit. Then she cold-shoulders him for expressing his opinion, just like in the last episode. I'm proud of Leonard for finally spelling out to her that she needs to include him in her life, not just in her bed. Leonard is being strong two ways, in that he's not backing down in the end, yet admitting why that he wouldn't be able to do what she is doing. The subtext though is that Leonard doesn't have someone to support him.

The whole plot line of Penny bonding with Sheldon is of no significance. Penny is buds with Sheldon, and hanging out with him while Leonard is at work. The whole last scene with the three of them reinforced the centrality of Leonard to the group. Penny and Sheldon are seekng Leonard's approval. Note that Penny's unaccepted proposal prefaced this episode, and it is clear that Sheldon wanted him to accept. Sheldon didn't say if, but when are you getting married. He's already past engagement and on to married and finding a place to live. It is interesting that Amy had no role in this discussion.

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By the way, Penny's role of Blanche in "A Street Car named Desire" was for her acting class. That is not a resume padding paid gig.

I'm aware of that, simply refuting the statement that she's had no formal training and hasn't worked in theater groups. Sheldon was told he couldn't make a career out of string theory and has proven people wrong,  just as Penny will (hopefully) do with her career. 

 

 It is interesting that Amy had no role in this discussion.

 

Not surprising though. As I've said, Amy is the nanny rather than the girlfriend. I don't think he sees her as a permanent fixture in his life the way he does Leonard and Penny (the parents). I doubt he'll ever be ready to live with her. 

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I'd like to believe that he was sincere, but he sounded very convincing in the cafeteria (I actually "awwwed') and we know he didn't mean it then. What could have changed his mind in that short span of time?

Leonard is faced with an irrational Penny, and he's trying his best. Three time in the past two episodes Penny has essentially tricked him. As Tensor points out in the "give me your honest opinion...", the "I'm thinking about qutting the CCF" and the proposal itself. She gives him five seconds to react to THAT proposal? She's also being passsive-aggressive, doing yoga with Sheldon. Penny needs to calm down, treat Leonard like her SO, and make him a partner in her life. Right now, she seems to just want Leonard to be a yes man, but that actually isn't what she wants. Whenever Leonard stands up for himself, Lenny does better. Leonard truly has her best interests at heart, and would not crush her dream. She's never given him a chance in this. He might actually have something intelligent and constructive to add. So far, he's been taking a lot of shots.

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I'd like to believe that he was sincere, but he sounded very convincing in the cafeteria (I actually "awwwed') and we know he didn't mean it then. What could have changed his mind in that short span of time? 

 

 

The same thing that caused Penny to go back to telling the truth.  

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That is really harsh, why not give him the benefit of the doubt?  That is very similar to saying Penny out and out lied when she told Leonard she wanted his honest opinion, should we really trust anything she's said since then?    I really don't understand why so many seemingly Penny and Leonard fans, denigrate and are out and out nasty  to one or the other in the coupling, especially in this thread where we are supposed to celebrate the coupling.

I think it is more of a lot of us not liking the direction the writers are going. I think several times we have seem season 3 Leonard instead of season 6 Leonard, and we have been seeing him out of character, like last episode, Leonard not supporting Penny, please give me a break.

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I think it is more of a lot of us not liking the direction the writers are going. I think several times we have seem season 3 Leonard instead of season 6 Leonard, and we have been seeing him out of character, like last episode, Leonard not supporting Penny, please give me a break.

 

So we should take shots at the other person in the relationship?  They both have flaws, they both can be a bitch or bastard, most of the time unintentionally, and heaven knows that they both can be pretty clueless as to what the other is thinking.    I don't see how that should equate to saying Leonard wasn't sincere at the end of the episode, or calling Penny a liar for saying she wanted an honest opinion.  That's all.

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This has bothered me too.  But I have been wonder WTH is going on with the writers this season.  The North Sea trip turns to nothing, and the next thing we get is them making Leonard seem to tell Penny she is stupid, in the scavenger hunt.  We have the problem with the book and his manipulating her, him pushing too hard for the divorce and then these two last episodes where he is looking bad in his support.  DId they have this much conflict in the whole last season?  And who has been supporting her, Sheldon!   They are changing Loenard's character before our eyes, why?

Since this season is all about P/S bonding Leonard has to be the whipping boy and the history of Leonard, Leonard and Penny friendship and relationship has to be thrown out the window in order for it to work. We all know that Leonard is the one that has been in Penny's corner but the writers are so into P/S arc that Leonard isn't that important at this time imo. Look at how many times P/S has taken each other sides over Leonard and it feels as if Leonard is the odd man out of the equation.

Look at how they have dumbed down Penny so much this season and now it's Leonard turn. I guess the writers are trying to get somewhere but they are missing the boat on it for me and I just feel as if I am watching an AU version of the show.

Edited by ArmyGirl
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I'd like to believe that he was sincere, but he sounded very convincing in the cafeteria (I actually "awwwed') and we know he didn't mean it then. What could have changed his mind in that short span of time?

I find it ironic that I thought Penny was asking for him to tell him her the truth but when he did she got mad. it seems you point out all of Leonard's faults but never point out Penny's. If I only read your posts and never watched the show I would think Penny's never done anything wrong.
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I do think Penny has some justification for being a bit irrational. As she pointed out, ten years and no real acting career is hard to take. The loss of one's dream is very difficult. I think it would be easier if she let Leonard in a bit more. He might not agree with how she's handling things, but he will emotionally support if she gives him the chance. The financial support will come later.

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I do think Penny has some justification for being a bit irrational. As she pointed out, ten years and no real acting career is hard to take. The loss of one's dream is very difficult. I think it would be easier if she let Leonard in a bit more. He might not agree with how she's handling things, but he will emotionally support if she gives him the chance. The financial support will come later.

But unfortunately a lot of the problem has been she's lazy.As you pointed out it's been ten years. She should have quit TCF years ago and done what she is doing now. Some are going to think that if the acting doesn't work she knows she has Leonard's bank account to fall back on. At this point her only other career fall back is waitressing.
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I agree with Armygirl that this season has seemed to focus on P/S.  I have no idea where they are going this season.  In some ways it seems like they are trying to destroy the L/P relationship, but then they have an episode where Penny shows Leonard all of the stuff that she has kept from him over the years and it seems completely different.  These last two episodes I jus did not care for in the way they have done Lenny.  I think they have put Leonard in an impossible position IMO and they Penny being completely irrational. 

 

Penny's part being cut in NCIS may have had nothing to do with her, it could have simply bee n an editorial decision to adjust the length of that episode or they decided that it just did not fit into the story, it may have had nothing to do with her acting ability.  Yet, Penny's response is to assume that she was the problem and that the answer is to quit her only means of support and "be totally focused" and some how that will launch her into instant stardom.   

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I do think Penny has some justification for being a bit irrational. As she pointed out, ten years and no real acting career is hard to take. The loss of one's dream is very difficult. I think it would be easier if she let Leonard in a bit more. He might not agree with how she's handling things, but he will emotionally support if she gives him the chance. The financial support will come later.

 

The funny thing is I find Penny behavior completely inline with what has been happening to her.  She was crushed and then got angry by her part getting cut.  Who is she going to take it out on?  The nearest and most forgiving target, Leonard.  It does not make it right, but she understands this, once she calms down enough to actually reflect on it (she did go tell him she wasn't mad at him).  She's got issues right  now and has to work through them and unfortunately Leonard, while he cares and does support her, hasn't explained or expressed that support in a very good way, giving the impression that he doesn't support her.    Admitting that he couldn't do what she is doing, but is proud of her, is completely in line with Leonard's character and his earlier hesitation and being flustered is simply due to Penny acting out, due to her anger.

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I find it ironic that I thought Penny was asking for him to tell him her the truth but when he did she got mad. it seems you point out all of Leonard's faults but never point out Penny's. If I only read your posts and never watched the show I would think Penny's never done anything wrong.

Leonard is stuck in catch-22.

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Leonard is stuck in catch-22.

Penny is putting Leonard in a spot where the only strength he has is his total devotion to her. His logic and reasoning will tell him that Penny has little chance of succeeding, no matter how talented or beautiful she is. It is the nature of the acting business. Harrison Ford is a good example. He got a couple of good small parts at one point, then ended out as a carpenter for a while. Then Lucas casts him as Han Solo. He didn't catch on until he was older. If Lucas doesn't make Star Wars, and remember Ford, one of the most successful actors of the past 30 years or so would be retired by now from a lifetime of putting up drywall. Emotionally Leonard wants to support the woman he loves, but logically she has little chance after ten years of trying (assuming her laziness isn't the problem). The scene where Leonard is practicing how to lie to Penny isn't the evil thing that some have said it was. Leonard has to lie to Penny. When he told her the truth, she got mad at him. She doesn't want to hear the truth, because logically, the odds are against any actor succeeding (see Tensor's calculation up thread). Quitting her job may improve those odds, in that she can increase her networking and go to more auditions, but is there evidence she ditched auditions to go to work? Most actors have other jobs to keep body and soul together, so they work at night jobs to be free to audition. The problem is that Penny's probably got a month's living expenses available, then she is broke. Is the quitting the CCF predicated on getting a paying gig within a week or so? The odds are that in two weeks or so, Leonard will be fronting Penny's full expenses, yet she won't live with him.

Sheldon is actually a bit of a romantic, since all theoreticians tend to be that way (I now, I work with them). While it doesn't make sense on the face of it, inventing theories really is like art, in that one is trying to capture the universe in a human construct. Experimentalists are grounded in the real, since you have to actually deal with equipment. Sheldon thinks the collider is a place of calm and pure intellect. He couldn't be more wrong.

Narratively, having Sheldon and Penny gang up on Leonard makes sense in that they are both emotionally dependant on Leonard, in different ways. Leonard is strong enough in the group to actually defy both, and win. Sheldon is supporting Penny because he subliminally realizes that logic isn't in Penny's favor, so he has to convince Leonard to support Penny in spite of logic. His goal is to keep "Mommy and Daddy" from fighting, i.e. Season 3 again. He needs them together to take care of him. There is also some payback in that Leonard wouldn't let him go to work. (As a theorist, Sheldon could easily work at home. His big breakthrough on the new heavy element occurred at home. I think Sheldon is afraid to stay at home alone.). Bonding Sheldon with Penny keeps all three of them in the room, too. In the last apartment scene, Penny arranged that deliberately to avoid talking to Leonard alone. The conversations they needed to have should have been one on one, and Leonard eventually physically moved Penny away from Sheldon, looked her straight in the eye, and had the conversation that needed to be had. It was actually neatly done, and a sign of Leonard's growing strengthe and confidence. He shut Sheldon out, and confronted Penny in a conversation she tried to avoid. Sheldon's role really was to serve as the audience, asking our questions. Where is this realtionship going, and why aren't they married already? Throughout ths scene, Leonard is the center. I think they are distorting Sheldon in support of Lenny, as whenever Lenny get closer, Sheldon acts emotionally. He's afraid, and should be.

Interestingly, these interactions actually marginalize the rest of the group. Shamy is particularly in trouble, as Amy is encountering potential suitors while Sheldon is trying to avoid the logical move of bonding stronger with her as Lenny moves toward engagement/living together/marriage. Note that all Raj's breakthough with respect totalking to girls while sober has simply allowed him to talk to the girls in the group with out a booze prop. Little more.

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Sheldon is actually a bit of a romantic, since all theoreticians tend to be that way (I now, I work with them). While it doesn't make sense on the face of it, inventing theories really is like art, in that one is trying to capture the universe in a human construct. Experimentalists are grounded in the real, since you have to actually deal with equipment. Sheldon thinks the collider is a place of calm and pure intellect. He couldn't be more wrong.

Narratively, having Sheldon and Penny gang up on Leonard makes sense in that they are both emotionally dependant on Leonard, in different ways. Leonard is strong enough in the group to actually defy both, and win. Sheldon is supporting Penny because he subliminally realizes that logic isn't in Penny's favor, so he has to convince Leonard to support Penny in spite of logic. His goal is to keep "Mommy and Daddy" from fighting, i.e. Season 3 again. He needs them together to take care of him. There is also some payback in that Leonard wouldn't let him go to work. (As a theorist, Sheldon could easily work at home. His big breakthrough on the new heavy element occurred at home. I think Sheldon is afraid to stay at home alone.). Bonding Sheldon with Penny keeps all three of them in the room, too. In the last apartment scene, Penny arranged that deliberately to avoid talking to Leonard alone. The conversations they needed to have should have been one on one, and Leonard eventually physically moved Penny away from Sheldon, looked her straight in the eye, and had the conversation that needed to be had. It was actually neatly done, and a sign of Leonard's growing strengthe and confidence. He shut Sheldon out, and confronted Penny in a conversation she tried to avoid. Sheldon's role really was to serve as the audience, asking our questions. Where is this realtionship going, and why aren't they married already? Throughout ths scene, Leonard is the center. I think they are distorting Sheldon in support of Lenny, as whenever Lenny get closer, Sheldon acts emotionally. He's afraid, and should be.

Interestingly, these interactions actually marginalize the rest of the group. Shamy is particularly in trouble, as Amy is encountering potential suitors while Sheldon is trying to avoid the logical move of bonding stronger with her as Lenny moves toward engagement/living together/marriage. Note that all Raj's breakthough with respect totalking to girls while sober has simply allowed him to talk to the girls in the group with out a booze prop. Little more.

 

Good point. Penny and Sheldon share one big trait, they are very dependent on Leonard. I can see why they would see them selves as being in the same boat.

 

The Shamy is going to be the one to suffer in this Penny/Leonard/Sheldon interaction. Sheldon is more interested in making sure that he stays in the middle of his "parent" relationship then in his own.

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