Spoilers Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread

[djsurrey]

Do you have an alternative to him fainting? And how is "Here, Drink this, it will relax you"(which is actually true) and after he declines saying "Fine Faint" is talking him into it.

 

If they knew his reaction, they probably would have. Well, except Leoanrd, he wasn't at the table.

 

Ya know, there's nothing that shows them laughing, at the dinner. Or, are you suggesting they knew ahead of time, what would happen?

 

I don't remember every detail but I would expect one of them posted it on the Internet. Between the second glass and Sheldon walking up to the podium with a bottle the camera cut to Leonard. The rest is left to our imagination. It is easy enough for me to imagine Howrd taking Penny's lead and suggesting he drink more.

 

As it turned out letting him faint might have been kinder.

[gsxdoug]

I don't remember every detail but I would expect one of them posted it on the Internet. Between the second glass and Sheldon walking up to the podium with a bottle the camera cut to Leonard. The rest is left to our imagination. It is easy enough for me to imagine Howrd taking Penny's lead and suggesting he drink more.

 

As it turned out letting him faint might have been kinder.

Okay, that's just making stuff up.

[djsurrey]

If you didn't mean to imply she did something wrong, why bother to even bring it up?

 

The point was to support my point that Penny brought drinking to the group. Amy was not a drinker, Sheldon was not a drinker and Raj had not drunk enough to know hat it could help him talk to women. Her drinking has been on a different level than the others. After all they got their PhD's by hard work and study. During the time they were earning their degrees Penny was doing a lot of partying. This is a premise of TBBT.

[3ku11]

Why does it matter how much Penny drank when she was younger, drinking is often an exstension to a social settinh. Go bk too s2 lime lenny scene, they both got drunk and hopped into bed, is leonard an alcaholic too? 3X01, Penny said we should of drunk to loosen up. I find Penny drinks inadvertantly, she prob did in hs with her friends, and with het circle of friends. Like i said drinking is a culture, Penny drinks and sometimes she drank too much, and made an error of judgement, but if this makes her an alcaholic, then any pretty blonde who has ever drunk alcahol is one too. Like i saids4 Amy got drunk and kissed sheldon, and blacked out, its all part of society. Its interesting tho since amy and bernie, she stopped hanging out with her "cheerleader" type friends, and her drinking has decreased. Point is punishing her for her past heavy binge drinking is no longer relevant imo.

[djsurrey]

Okay, that's just making stuff up.

Indeed. Well that is how perception works (or fails to work).

Why does it matter how much Penny drank when she was younger, drinking is often an exstension to a social settinh. Go bk too s2 lime lenny scene, they both got drunk and hopped into bed, is leonard an alcaholic too? 3X01, Penny said we should of drunk to loosen up. I find Penny drinks inadvertantly, she prob did in hs with her friends, and with het circle of friends. Like i said drinking is a culture, Penny drinks and sometimes she drank too much, and made an error of judgement, but if this makes her an alcaholic, then any pretty blonde who has ever drunk alcahol is one too. Like i saids4 Amy got drunk and kissed sheldon, and blacked out, its all part of society. Its interesting tho since amy and bernie, she stopped hanging out with her "cheerleader" type friends, and her drinking has decreased. Point is punishing her for her past heavy binge drinking is no longer relevant imo.

 

I agree that her drinking has decreased in most of season seven. I think it is a good thing. I don't like to put labels on people (or characters). I think it prudent to avoid binge drinking as much as possible. I'd like to see culture move away from that.

 

I don't know where the writers intend to go. Past heavy drinking does not mean future heavy drinking necessarily, but when life gets difficult people often fall back on old coping mechanisms.

 

Why does it matter?

1. The more one uses drinking to cope the bigger the chance of spiralling down into an actual addiction problem.
2. Drinking too heavy can make one vulnerable to abuse
3. result in unexpected pregnancies (and FAS)
4. It can also lead to accidents like falling down stairs
5. and health issues

see http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

 

 

Immediate Health Risks

Excessive alcohol use has immediate effects that increase the risk of many harmful health conditions. These immediate effects are most often the result of binge drinking and include the following—

• Unintentional injuries, including traffic injuries, falls, drownings, burns, and unintentional firearm injuries.⁶
• Violence, including intimate partner violence and child maltreatment. About 35% of victims report that offenders are under the influence of alcohol.⁷ Alcohol use is also associated with 2 out of 3 incidents of intimate partner violence.⁷ Studies have also shown that alcohol is a leading factor in child maltreatment and neglect cases, and is the most frequent substance abused among these parents.⁸
• Risky sexual behaviors, including unprotected sex, sex with multiple partners, and increased risk of sexual assault. These behaviors can result in unintended pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases.^{9, 10}
• Miscarriage and stillbirth among pregnant women, and a combination of physical and mental birth defects among children that last throughout life.^{11, 12}
• Alcohol poisoning, a medical emergency that results from high blood alcohol levels that suppress the central nervous system and can cause loss of consciousness, low blood pressure and body temperature, coma, respiratory depression, or death.¹³

Long-Term Health Risks

Over time, excessive alcohol use can lead to the development of chronic diseases, neurological impairments and social problems. These include but are not limited to—

• Neurological problems, including dementia, stroke and neuropathy.^{14, 15}
• Cardiovascular problems, including myocardial infarction, cardiomyopathy, atrial fibrillation and hypertension.¹⁶
• Psychiatric problems, including depression, anxiety, and suicide.¹⁷
• Social problems, including unemployment, lost productivity, and family problems.^{18, 19}
• Cancer of the mouth, throat, esophagus, liver, colon, and breast.²⁰ In general, the risk of cancer increases with increasing amounts of alcohol.
• Liver diseases, including—
  • Alcoholic hepatitis.
  • Cirrhosis, which is among the 15 leading causes of all deaths in the United States.²¹
  • Among persons with Hepatitis C virus, worsening of liver function and interference with medications used to treat this condition.²²
• Other gastrointestinal problems, including pancreatitis and gastritis.^{23, 24}

Edited March 10, 2014 by djsurrey

[3ku11]

The point was to support my point that Penny brought drinking to the group. Amy was not a drinker, Sheldon was not a drinker and Raj had not drunk enough to know hat it could help him talk to women. Her drinking has been on a different level than the others. After all they got their PhD's by hard work and study. During the time they were earning their degrees Penny was doing a lot of partying. This is a premise of TBBT.

ur not naive into thinking Penny drinking 1. Was a choice more then a lifestyle or 2. The guys diddnt drink at uni, being scientists doesent not make then human. The guys were conditioned into a life of order, routine, knowing nothing but science and education. Then this hot girl moves in, whos practical, grounded, fun. Is the archtypical girl next door, so your right its part of the premise. But Pennys parent had a different effect on her life,, then the guys parents did, they hd different expectations growing up being nerds. As the old saying goes, dont worry if your bullied, as one day you'll be the cool one. Most likely Penny got by with her llooks, barbarian sublim was an example of Penny realizing she cant get by her looks anymore, reality is a you kno what, it cant br easy for her being such close friends with genuises.

[Nogravitasatall]

There seems to be something of an apprehension that portrayal of the enjoyment of alcohol and sex is intrinsically negative. Alcohol is a carcinogen and risky sex can kill, but they are not the greatest dangers in this world. Like crossing streets or driving on freeways most adults learn how to navigate the hazards. Sheldon got a lesson on how to navigate a hazard. Penny did him a favour by broadening his experience. LOL

[rachelshamyfan]

Your also forgetting that penny gave Sheldon alcohol during the Will Wheaton extract episode, Sheldon didn't know it was alcohol though, I know it was for the audience to laugh at but its irresponsible

Edited March 10, 2014 by rachelshamyfan

[Nogravitasatall]

Your also forgetting that penny gave Sheldon alcohol during the Will Wheaton extract episode, Sheldon didn't know it was alcohol though, I know it was for the audience to laugh at but its irresponsible

... A teachable moment. (Drinks do get spiked eta this was incorrect). Has Sheldon suffered long term? Heck no. But everyone else ducks when he has a hissy fit.

Edit: ah, he didn't get his drink spiked, he sculled two Long Island teas. Penny tried to warn him, but he shrugged her off because he, as always, knew better. But he was in a bar, ordering from a bartender and he had declared he was a mature adult... he was a cocksure idiot and his hubris did him, as ever.

And still everyone folds when he holds his breath.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Nogravitasatall

[Kasey]

After reading all this back and forth about who is or is not a potential alcoholic or who may or may not have aided and abetted in someone drinking,

 

I now need a drink     

[DaisyJane]

The point was to support my point that Penny brought drinking to the group. Amy was not a drinker, Sheldon was not a drinker and Raj had not drunk enough to know hat it could help him talk to women. Her drinking has been on a different level than the others. After all they got their PhD's by hard work and study. During the time they were earning their degrees Penny was doing a lot of partying. This is a premise of TBBT.

 

Bullshit. The only one who actively avoided alcohol beforehand was Sheldon, likely because he was already heavily exposed to it with his father. He made the choice to drink that night of his speech, Penny "talking him into it" by offering doesn't make her responsible for what happened. Amy had merely never been offered it by a friend, she had probably drank before in her 40 years of life. Raj just never had it in the presence of a woman, as we know that before Penny girls didn't hang out with them. 

 

And please, spare us the long-term effects of heavy drinking. This is a sitcom, and as multiple poster have pointed out Penny would not be characterized as such.

 

Your point that Penny was doing nothing but partying while they were off being honorable and earning their Ph.Ds is equally absurd. I've already pointed out that the guys have all engaged in plenty of casual sex, so it's possible they also did some drinking. Penny never struck me as a frat-level partier, she probably just went out on weekends the way most people her age did. She's always been on her own, so while they were in school, she was working and going to auditions. 

 

Your also forgetting that penny gave Sheldon alcohol during the Will Wheaton extract episode, Sheldon didn't know it was alcohol though, I know it was for the audience to laugh at but its irresponsible

 

Sheldon is a grown man at a bar, nothing irresponsible about giving him a drink. If he didn't know what was in a Long Island Iced Tea that is his own problem. 

Edited March 10, 2014 by DaisyJane

[SodidIwin?]

I also seriously doubt Amy was "introduced" to alcohol by Penny considering the fact that she is nearly 40. While she may not have ever been given alcohol by a friend, all you have to do is walk into a restaurant that serves drinks to be offered some. She'd probably had a drink before, just not in that atmosphere.

Actually you're right Penny didn't introduce Amy to alcohol. When the girls and Raj were at the bar in episode 6.11 Amy admitted: Amy: You think that’s bad? In college, I passed out at a frat party and woke up with more clothes on.

So not only has she drank before she met Penny, but she also admits she passed out because of it.

Edited March 10, 2014 by SodidIwin?

[rickfromillinois]

From an economic point of view it seems to me that Penny moving in with Leonard makes allot of sense.  She is supposed to be living on her savings which would last allot longer if she didn't have to pay rent and utilities.  Yes, she would probably be happier if she had her own space, but Once her savings runs out the Leonard would have to step in and make those payments.   Although Leonard has a good job, I don't think that he is rich, and even if he could swing it, is it really fair to him to do so?   I don't think that it would be a great sacrifice for Penny to move in with Leonard and Sheldon, and since she was the one who decided to quit her job in order to pursue her dream, shouldn't she be willing to make a few sacrifices to do so?  IMO I don't really think that she would consider it a sacrifice, just another progressive step in her and Leonard's relationship. 

 

The reason that I didn't make the obvious connection of Leonard moving in with Penny is because I don't think that the show's writers/producer would want to give up on the comedic possibilities of all 3 or them living in the same apartment.  

[Chrismo]

The argument of Penny's drinking can go back and forth forever without a winner on this thread. IMO the real problem is her lack of success in acting. While the other six have gone to school and worked hard to do what they are doing. They have found a certain amount of success and probably will be doing what they are doing the rest of their lives. Penny on the other hand while working at the same job until this season has had no real success in acting. While most things that she has done has been long ago I think they have caused her situation. The rest of the groups "bad judgment" at times have been excusable simply because they have not really affected their lives. Sheldon's bad judgment while drinking before his speech didn't cause anything but a good laugh. All Penny's bad decisions including, drunk with Raj, getting married in Vegas, and hooking up with some guy at some hotel in itself isn't necessarily so bad. But when you've had no career success people are going to judge things differently. Even while Sheldon agreed with her about quitting her job he did point that you should put 100% into what you want to do. It seems obvious, even to Penny herself, that she didn't do this. If this had occurred all this drinking and her past history wouldn't be a topic on this thread.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Chrismo

[DaisyJane]

The argument of Penny's drinking can go back and forth forever without a winner on this thread. IMO the real problem is her lack of success in acting. While the other six have gone to school and worked hard to do what they are doing. They have found a certain amount of success and probably will be doing what they are doing the rest of their lives. Penny on the other hand while working at the same job until this season has had no real success in acting. While most things that she has done has been long ago I think they have caused her situation. The rest of the groups "bad judgment" at times have been excusable simply because they have not really affected their lives. Sheldon's bad judgment while drinking before his speech didn't cause anything but a good laugh. All Penny's bad decisions including, drunk with Raj, getting married in Vegas, and hooking up with some guy at some hotel in itself isn't necessarily so bad. But when you've had no career success people are going to judge things differently. Even while Sheldon agreed with her about quitting her job he did point that you should put 100% into what you want to do. It seems obvious, even to Penny herself, that she didn't do this. If this had occurred all this drinking and her past history wouldn't be a topic on this thread.

 

Translation, it's the ignorance and snobbery of the posters, not the character. Sexism and classism. I figured that one out when the proposed careers were as demeaning as hooker, stripper, and housewife. The guys have engaged in equally stupid behavior, but they're men and not a "lowly" waitress, so it doesn't matter. She is characterized as lazy because she doesn't have a doctorate when she has in fact worked in the often grueling service industry since she was 18. But she doesn't have a "passion", like the guys do television, so it's justified. 

[SodidIwin?]

From an economic point of view it seems to me that Penny moving in with Leonard makes allot of sense.  She is supposed to be living on her savings which would last allot longer if she didn't have to pay rent and utilities.  Yes, she would probably be happier if she had her own space, but Once her savings runs out the Leonard would have to step in and make those payments.   Although Leonard has a good job, I don't think that he is rich, and even if he could swing it, is it really fair to him to do so?   I don't think that it would be a great sacrifice for Penny to move in with Leonard and Sheldon, and since she was the one who decided to quit her job in order to pursue her dream, shouldn't she be willing to make a few sacrifices to do so?  IMO I don't really think that she would consider it a sacrifice, just another progressive step in her and Leonard's relationship. 

 

The reason that I didn't make the obvious connection of Leonard moving in with Penny is because I don't think that the show's writers/producer would want to give up on the comedic possibilities of all 3 or them living in the same apartment.

Although I don't disagree with what you said, I just don't see the writers giving up the dynamic of the two apartments and hallway in between. There's been a lot of serious discussions in that hallway. Specifically between Lenny. That's why I think they will give Penny some modest success in her acting career to be able to keep her apartment. I believe they will also have her propose to Leonard properly in the final or the episode just prior. However, they will have the engagement go all next season and then figure out what different living arrangement can be accomplished. Perhaps the Shamy can progress to the point where Amy moves in with Sheldon.

[Martin Pollard]

Sheldon is a grown man at a bar, nothing irresponsible about giving him a drink. If he didn't know what was in a Long Island Iced Tea that is his own problem. 

 

I agree with you: how is this Penny's fault? I'm someone who doesn't drink at all (never cared for the taste of alcohol), and no matter how little alcohol a drink contains, I can still taste it. A Long Island Iced Tea is loaded with it, and Sheldon certainly isn't a stranger to alcohol, even though he rarely partakes, so he should have known in a heartbeat that it wasn't simple iced tea. He didn't refuse to drink it; on the contrary, he sucked down two of them without a moment's hesitation. He's a responsible adult, he wasn't pressured into it, and Penny did warn him about their potency ("you might want to take it easy"), only for Sheldon to blow her off in his usual condescending manner ("far be it from me to argue with a man with a full pubis"). That's all on Sheldon, not the "slutty alcholoic."

[Chrismo]

Translation, it's the ignorance and snobbery of the posters, not the character. Sexism and classism. I figured that one out when the proposed careers were as demeaning as hooker, stripper, and housewife. The guys have engaged in equally stupid behavior, but they're men and not a "lowly" waitress, so it doesn't matter. She is characterized as lazy because she doesn't have a doctorate when she has in fact worked in the often grueling service industry since she was 18. But she doesn't have a "passion", like the guys do television, so it's justified. 

I'm not one of them that suggested the proposed careers but again what can she do? When the car broke down her fall back decision was to get the "apeist" gig and when that fell through she was going back to TCF. The guys "equally stupid behavior" had nothing to do with them being men it's because they can afford to be stupid. Penny can't. Nobody is questioning the hard work in the service industry although Penny has admitted she's not a good waitress. Her plan in Hollywood was to be a movie star and if not then a tv star. The only other career option is to be a waitress. Obviously she doesn't want to waitress. Her current predicament isn't the guys fault. She had no plan when she came to Hollywood. Even with this latest apeist gig was she really in the position to say no? Everyone was upset with Leonard questioning her judgment but it seemed he was right.

[DaisyJane]

I'm not one of them that suggested the proposed careers but again what can she do? When the car broke down her fall back decision was to get the "apeist" gig and when that fell through she was going back to TCF. The guys "equally stupid behavior" had nothing to do with them being men it's because they can afford to be stupid. Penny can't. Nobody is questioning the hard work in the service industry although Penny has admitted she's not a good waitress. Her plan in Hollywood was to be a movie star and if not then a tv star. The only other career option is to be a waitress. Obviously she doesn't want to waitress. Her current predicament isn't the guys fault. She had no plan when she came to Hollywood. Even with this latest apeist gig was she really in the position to say no? Everyone was upset with Leonard questioning her judgment but it seemed he was right.

 

The examples given (Zack, Luther, Raj) didn't cost Penny any money, so it's not a matter of being able to "afford" stupidity. Bad decisions are bad decisions regardless of wealth, so that cannot be a justifiable excuse for Penny to be condemned so much more harshly than the guys. 

[Chrismo]

If it cost her money that may be debatable. Instead of "spending time" with Zack, Luther and Raj the time may have been better spent trying to get acting gigs. My point is that what the guys did may have been "equally stupid" they were in a position to "afford" to do it. I get bad decisions are bad decisions. An example was the Comic Con and the dress. While they may have cost the same Leonard could afford the tickets but could Penny really afford the dress? Bernadette even questioned this. Penny response was something like this dress can get me in a lot of places. Thus people are going to treat her more harshly because it appears she doesn't take seriously her situation. Did that dress get her an acting gig?

[DaisyJane]

Did that dress get her an acting gig?

Considering how vital looks are to getting an audition, it very well could. Not that's there is anything wrong with the occasional splurge.

 

But you're right, how dare that lowly waitress have any fun! 

 

Zack happened at Thanksgiving and Raj in the middle of the night. So that's a weak argument. You are really looking for anything to condone these elitist attitudes. 

Edited March 10, 2014 by DaisyJane

[Disgusted]

Sorry about the change in subject, but this was in another thread, and rather than hijack the thread, I though I would bring it here to the "hate" thread.    

 

 

3) He isn't going to dump her.  One of the whole premises of the show is that Leonard fell for Penny in the first episode.   Penny loves him and really cares for him.  She just isn't that good at showing it sometimes (See The Romance Resonance to see that she does care).  

 

 

Well, the memento keeping could be either sweet or creepy, after all serial killers do the same thing.

 

IMNSHO, Penny has never shown she is committed as Leonard is. Countless times, Leonard has suffered humiliation, loss, or just plain bad JuJu due to his relationship with Penny. Penny, not so much.

 

Her whole life, Penny has been waiting for something better to come along. It makes me nervous.

 

In my ideal scenario, Leonard would drop Penny off at an audition, after he leaves, a producer at the audition makes a crack about the nerd, and why is Penny with him. Penny then goes Nebraska on his ass, and storms out, sure she has lost the part, and not caring.

 

The tag would be Penny entering the apartment, Leonard says "How'd it go?" Penny just crosses the apartment and kisses him, at least 5 Mississippi's. Then the phone rings. She got the part.

 

If that happens, I will never doubt again.

[Chrismo]

Considering how vital looks are to getting an audition, it very well could. Not that's there is anything wrong with the occasional splurge.

 

But you're right, how dare that lowly waitress have any fun! 

 

Zack happened at Thanksgiving and Raj in the middle of the night. So that's a weak argument. You are really looking for anything to condone these elitist attitudes. 

Has it got her an acting gig? Nothing is wrong with occasional splurge if you can afford it.I think the fun times are over when you don't have money. I don't know about the elitist attitudes but you seemed to be always making excuse for her.. Penny has indirectly admitted she is lazy with her I get by because i'm cute. I understand it's hard to get into but there a certain point when you have to plan in case it doesn't happen. What is Penny's plan? I know you don't like the idea of her depending on Leonard but it's hard to see any other way at this point. She really has nothing else to fall back on.

[SRAM]

Sorry about the change in subject, but this was in another thread, and rather than hijack the thread, I though I would bring it here to the "hate" thread.    

 

 

Well, the memento keeping could be either sweet or creepy, after all serial killers do the same thing.

 

IMNSHO, Penny has never shown she is committed as Leonard is. Countless times, Leonard has suffered humiliation, loss, or just plain bad JuJu due to his relationship with Penny. Penny, not so much.

 

Her whole life, Penny has been waiting for something better to come along. It makes me nervous.

 

In my ideal scenario, Leonard would drop Penny off at an audition, after he leaves, a producer at the audition makes a crack about the nerd, and why is Penny with him. Penny then goes Nebraska on his ass, and storms out, sure she has lost the part, and not caring.

 

The tag would be Penny entering the apartment, Leonard says "How'd it go?" Penny just crosses the apartment and kisses him, at least 5 Mississippi's. Then the phone rings. She got the part.

 

If that happens, I will never doubt again.

I would like to see her stand up for her relationship with him, too. I keep remembering Leonard telling her how guys would hit on her while he was standing right there, so my scene wish would be something that included that scenario.

[DaisyJane]

Has it got her an acting gig? Nothing is wrong with occasional splurge if you can afford it.I think the fun times are over when you don't have money. I don't know about the elitist attitudes but you seemed to be always making excuse for her.. Penny has indirectly admitted she is lazy with her I get by because i'm cute. I understand it's hard to get into but there a certain point when you have to plan in case it doesn't happen. What is Penny's plan? I know you don't like the idea of her depending on Leonard but it's hard to see any other way at this point. She really has nothing else to fall back on.

 

Well, looks like her plan is to continue auditioning, as has been established multiple times. She hasn't moved in with Leonard or asked him for money, so she must be alright for the time being. Once her savings run out, based on the last episode, it sounds like she's willing to return to waitressing. I don't recall her ever declaring herself lazy, the cute comment was a response to her not carrying around cash. Using Zack, Luther, or Raj as evidence to her being lazy because she apparently could have been auditioning instead is a major stretch. Downright asinine. 

Edited March 10, 2014 by DaisyJane