Spoilers Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread

[Tensor]

I'd love to check Leonard's bookshelves (Kindle) for a copy of Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land". As a group, they grok.

(PS. I'd hope this is not an obscure SF reference to you geeks out there. Heinlein is a giant of SF).

Grok? Maybe I'll make some stew and it will become clear for me My Brother. BTW, nice lawn.

[Nogravitasatall]

Penny may have a good excuse or may not need one at all, BUT being drunk IS NOT a legitimate excuse for someone's actions.  That was the point I was trying to make.   As for it being alright because Leonard was sleeping with Raj's sister,  I think that is being naive about human interpersonal relationships.   There most likely will be problems if your former and now present girlfriend sleeps with one of your friends.   It will place allot of tension in the friendship or the relationship.   In all likelyhood Leonard would have never gotten back together with Penny or slowly dissolved his friendship with Raj.   I doubt that he would be comfortable if Penny and Raj were both in his presence at the same time, and he most certainly would not be pleased if he found out that they spent any time together while he was gone.  If you are presently in a relationship, ask yourself if your other half would be comfortable with you spending any time with someone that you had sex with before you met your partner.  Once again, I know that nothing was consumated, but it was not for the lack of trying on both of their parts.

Hmmm. There is no evidence that Leonard has done anything but forgive and move on. Maybe he is naturally a swinger (lol). I'd think Penny felt some guilt but she had been generally conflicted about her self-image and her reality for some time. She had her epiphany about her life and I believe she has come to terms with herself. There is a lot of room for subjectivity in one's responses to this situation and it will boil down to belief. Objectively all one can do is observe. If Raj is ever found dead in the conservatory by blows from a lead pipe then Dr L Hofstader would be "Helping The Police With Their Enquiries". Until then it's all over, red rover.

[eirwinrommel]

While I think I understand where the frustration with Raj is coming from, maybe we should all relax a little about what happened.

 

Leonard was single. Priya was single. They had every right to do whatever they wanted.

Penny was single. Raj was single. They had every right to do whatever they wanted. 

Leonard and Priya slept together in her brother's bedroom ? Not cool (mostly because unhygienic)

Raj and Penny slept together in Leonard's bedroom ? Not cool (mostly because unhygienic).

You do know they probably changed the sheets, right? Priya had been staying with Raj for a while, and she was probably the one using the bed on the nights she wasn't over at Leonard's, with Raj sleeping on the couch. So another unmentioned reason for moving in with Sheldon was the chance to sleep in a real bed full time.

Also Did you notice Priya wasn't consulted about Leonard moving in with her?

 

Leonard: Okay, well, how about this. Until Priya gets her own place, you stay here and I’ll stay at your apartment.

Raj: Can I bring girls here?

Leonard: You? Sure. Bring as many as you want.

Raj: Okay, deal.

Leonard: Just not against their will.

Edited September 1, 2013 by eirwinrommel

[Fruit Loop]

.

You can make all the Excuses you want for Penny's actions. But her character is a Drunken street wise Slut who sleeps around and on the first date.

HOWEVER: She did tell Raj she messed up by dumping Leonard. Therefore: Raj is Guilty of being a Buddy F...

OK she is growing and in Season 6 she becomes fully committed to Leonard. Also she doesn't drink as much which is and other sign she is growing up.

.

[Nogravitasatall]

.You can make all the Excuses you want for Penny's actions. But her character is a Drunken street wise Slut who sleeps around and on the first date.HOWEVER: She did tell Raj she messed up by dumping Leonard. Therefore: Raj is Guilty of being a Buddy F...OK she is growing and in Season 6 she becomes fully committed to Leonard. Also she doesn't drink as much which is and other sign she is growing up..

You see, I'm still looking for the crime in your second sentence. Play that for a bloke and you get Mick Jagger. LOL. Widely revered.

[Tensor]

Yeah, you want to clarify for me exactly who all those guys she slept with? I seem to remember Kurt, and Mike and Zack and Leonard. She was kissing on Eric, until Leonard stopped kissing Leslie, then she stopped, said goodnight and went into her appartment alone. Two dates with Stuart, no sex.

So from the beginning of the show (and actually since she moved to southern California), she's had sex with three guys besides Leonard, with a possibility of a fourth, if she found someone the night of the snowflake.

Leonard's had sex with Leslie, Stephanie, Penny, Pryia, Mrs Latham, and possibly Joy, Bernadette's date for Leonard. Leonard has had sex with four women besides Penny, and possibly a fifth, sixth (Joyce Kim). So, what exactly makes Penny such a slut and not Leonard?

[gsxdoug]

Yeah, you want to clarify for me exactly who all those guys she slept with? I seem to remember Kurt, and Mike and Zack and Leonard. She was kissing on Eric, until Leonard stopped kissing Leslie, then she stopped, said goodnight and went into her appartment alone. Two dates with Stuart, no sex.

So from the beginning of the show (and actually since she moved to southern California), she's had sex with three guys besides Leonard, with a possibility of a fourth, if she found someone the night of the snowflake.

Leonard's had sex with Leslie, Stephanie, Penny, Pryia, Mrs Latham, and possibly Joy, Bernadette's date for Leonard. Leonard has had sex with four women besides Penny, and possibly a fifth, sixth (Joyce Kim). So, what exactly makes Penny such a slut and not Leonard?

Because she's a woman, of course, and we know all women are evil temptresses.

Hope I don't need to borrow Disgusted's avatar for this!

Edited September 1, 2013 by gsxdoug

[Occam's Chainsaw]

Yeah, you want to clarify for me exactly who all those guys she slept with? I seem to remember Kurt, and Mike and Zack and Leonard. She was kissing on Eric, until Leonard stopped kissing Leslie, then she stopped, said goodnight and went into her appartment alone. Two dates with Stuart, no sex.

So from the beginning of the show (and actually since she moved to southern California), she's had sex with three guys besides Leonard, with a possibility of a fourth, if she found someone the night of the snowflake.

Leonard's had sex with Leslie, Stephanie, Penny, Pryia, Mrs Latham, and possibly Joy, Bernadette's date for Leonard. Leonard has had sex with four women besides Penny, and possibly a fifth, sixth (Joyce Kim). So, what exactly makes Penny such a slut and not Leonard?

We can assume a few more, which were the basis of Sheldon's 31 sexual partners in her life. I can't remember the exact numbers but it came out to like one in six men she dated she slept with. True Sheldon's number assumed that his sample set was indicative of an average time period, but we don't know if he eliminated the time period when she was dating Leonard or not though. If we assume he did then his sample set would be the first 2 years she lived in 4b. His numbers assumed she started dating at 14 (I think, there were a lot of numbers being thrown around), she started dating Leonard when she was 23 so that is a 9 year period. Remove Leonard from the 31 and we have an estimated 30 in 9 years meaning that his number would be based on 6 or 7 men in the first 2 seasons.

[Tensor]

We can assume a few more, which were the basis of Sheldon's 31 sexual partners in her life. I can't remember the exact numbers but it came out to like one in six men she dated she slept with. True Sheldon's number assumed that his sample set was indicative of an average time period, but we don't know if he eliminated the time period when she was dating Leonard or not though. If we assume he did then his sample set would be the first 2 years she lived in 4b. His numbers assumed she started dating at 14 (I think, there were a lot of numbers being thrown around), she started dating Leonard when she was 23 so that is a 9 year period. Remove Leonard from the 31 and we have an estimated 30 in 9 years meaning that his number would be based on 6 or 7 men in the first 2 seasons.

Sheldon didn't account for the four years of Kurt either. Starting at fourteen, going to 24, with five years out. The two year sample set isn't a representative of her full dating sample, there simply isn't a bell curve, as Sheldon assumes. Less men dated, less men slept with, as his estimate of the number she slept with is based on total men dated.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Tensor

[Occam's Chainsaw]

However his base set would need to be based on something, as would his conversion from men dated to men slept with. That would imply that she slept with one out of every six men she dated while she lived in 4B, if we assume that he discounted the years she lived with Kurt it would only skew the numbers higher for the period she lived in 4B.

[Nogravitasatall]

None of the math impinges on the implicit value judgement. But she seems happier now and that's good.

[Occam's Chainsaw]

None of the math impinges on the implicit value judgement. But she seems happier now and that's good.

Oh, I'm not making a judgement, values or otherwise, simply pointing out information that was implied in the show. And she is definitely better off now than she was earlier, especially in S4.

[eirwinrommel]

The actual dialog was:

 

Sheldon: Your characterization of approximately 171 different men as a few.

Penny: What? Where did you get 171 men?

Sheldon: Simple extrapolation. In the three years that I’ve known you, you were single for two. During that time, I saw 17 different suitors. If we work backwards, correcting for observation bias and postulate an initial dating age of 15…

Penny: Whoa, wait, wait, wait. I did not start dating at 15.

Sheldon: I’m sorry. 16?

Penny: 14.

Sheldon: My mistake. Now, assuming the left side of a bell curve peaking around the present, that would bring the total up to 193 men. Plus or minus eight men.

Amy: Remarkable. Did you have sexual intercourse with all of these men?

Penny: No.

Sheldon: Although that number would be fairly easy to calculate.

Penny: Oh.

Sheldon: Based on the number of awkward encounters I’ve had with strange men leaving her apartment in the morning, plus the number of times she’s returned home wearing the same clothes she wore the night before…

Penny: Okay, Sheldon, I think you’ve made your point.

Sheldon: So we multiply 193, minus 21 men before the loss of virginity, so 172 times 0.18 gives us 30.96 sexual partners. Let’s round that up to 31.

 

Now I disagree with that number because as Tensor said: 'Sheldon didn't account for the four years of Kurt either. Starting at fourteen, going to 24, with five years out. The two year sample set isn't a representative of her full dating sample, there simply isn't a bell curve, as Sheldon assumes. Less men dated, less men slept with, as his estimate of the number she slept with is based on total men dated.'

 

On the other hand Season 2 episode 3

 

Sheldon: You’re welcome. Anyhow, on a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being always initiated by him, and 5 being always initiated by you, how do you prefer your sexual encounters to begin?

Penny: That’s on the registration?

Sheldon: Oh yes, it’s quite extensive. But if we complete it, we get a free expansion pack, 75 additional quests.

Penny: Ooh, awesome, okay, I totally like to initiate I’m a big old five.

Sheldon: Good to know. Big old five.

 

So who knows Sheldon may be right.

[Tensor]

As I said, there isn't a bell curve, as Sheldon assumes. Individual dating history isn't a normal distribution. If you assemble a history of many different individuals, then you would get a normal distribution. Sheldon's main assumption is simply wrong, which means his conclusions are wrong.

[eirwinrommel]

On the other hand For much of the first three years Sheldon knew Penny she was interested (at some level) in Leonard. She could well have been dating fewer men then pre-Kurt as a result of that.  Again we don't know just how many men she 'dated'.

[Chiara]

.You can make all the Excuses you want for Penny's actions. But her character is a Drunken street wise Slut who sleeps around and on the first date.

 

If so, she could not be more perfect for Leonard who, let us not forget, is a prostitute (he slept with Mrs Latham in exchange for a donation). The slut and the ho, living happily ever after... A 21st-century fairytale, how moving !

[ArmyGirl]

Wow now Leonard is a prostitute, guess I don't understand how those that feel this way would want their prefect Penny with. 

[gsxdoug]

I do believe it was sarcasm.

[Nogravitasatall]

If so, she could not be more perfect for Leonard who, let us not forget, is a prostitute (he slept with Mrs Latham in exchange for a donation). The slut and the ho, living happily ever after... A 21st-century fairytale, how moving !

I laughed at this. But Penny's dating experience is probably not that unusual for some women from the first world. I have idly asked my wife about her dating history but for some reason she replies at each enquiry that it's none of my business. And shut up. And be happy.

And that is so similar to:

Penny: Leonard, why do you always do this? Listen to me, you’re the one I’m with. You know I love you, so will you please relax because you’re driving me crazy.

Based on what we have seen this is never going to be an issue for them. It totally makes sense to me that Leonard would not ever care. Let them continue breaking beds together. It IS a good match in that domain.

[Occam's Chainsaw]

Okay, now that I've seen the actual dialog I retract my original analysis. We know that she went out with 17 guys during S1 and S2, again we have to assume that the .18 came from somewhere so if we take 17 times .18 we only get 3. If we assume that doesn't include Kurt or Leonard and that she was only with Kurt between moving to California and arriving at 4B then you get a total of 5 men she slept with since arriving in California (6 if you count Raj).

 

Also Sheldon really screwed up his math, badly.

[Nogravitasatall]

If you are presently in a relationship, ask yourself if your other half would be comfortable with you spending any time with someone that you had sex with before you met your partner.  Once again, I know that nothing was consumated, but it was not for the lack of trying on both of their parts.

Circling back to this one. Leonard and Penny were not dating or even on a break. I have personal experience that says this doesn't have to be an issue. I believe all the prior behaviours are less than predictive of Leonard's and Penny's future relationship now that they have declared their intent as of the VD episode.

[gsxdoug]

In any case, after a certain age you can't be worried about how many people a potential gf or bf has dated. Every adult has a history, especially in this day and age.

Why should sitcom characters be any different?

[Occam's Chainsaw]

Circling back to this one. Leonard and Penny were not dating or even on a break. I have personal experience that says this doesn't have to be an issue. I believe all the prior behaviours are less than predictive of Leonard's and Penny's future relationship now that they have declared their intent as of the VD episode.

Totally agree. I doubt any trust issue will ever show up regarding the end of S4, at least not with Leonard distrusting Penny. He might have some underlying trust issues with Raj, and arguments could be made as to whether that would be justified.

[fixitmr]

I have been reading here about  WHY does Leonard LOVE Penny .... why can he forgive her for all her mistakes  ... JUST BECAUSE  .... Because when he's with her he's HAPPY, SHE makes HIM HAPPY ... WHY is anyone IN LOVE  is there a reason ???? should there be a reason ???

 

Leonard looks at Penny and wants to be with her,  JUST her no one else.  the S5-13  When Leonard looks at Penny in her apartment talking to the girls he sees the woman he LOVEs and no one else ... no warts NOTHING .... He knows about her warts but looks past them and that's it .....

 

Another thing  S1E6 Penny's Halloween party when Penny comes to see if Leonard is ok .... He asks her some questions about her condition, she said she is DRUNK, he does NOT take advantage of her situation like some guys whom she had dated in the past would have done. Leonard is a REAL man, not too sure of himself yet but getting there.

Edited September 3, 2013 by fixitmr

[gsxdoug]

I have been reading here about  WHY does Leonard LOVE Penny .... why can he forgive her for all her mistakes  ... JUST BECAUSE  .... Because when he's with her he's HAPPY, SHE makes HIM HAPPY ... WHY is anyone IN LOVE  is there a reason ???? should there be a reason ???

 

Leonard looks at Penny and wants to be with her,  JUST her no one else.  the S5-13  When Leonard looks at Penny in her apartment talking to the girls he sees the woman he LOVEs and no one else ... no warts NOTHING .... He knows about her warts but looks past them and that's it .....

True enough. I can only speeak for my self, but of the times I've been in love, very few could I say "this is why."