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Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread

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Since obviously Leonard will be having Sheldon as the best man he will be front and center. I wonder what he will plan for his little buddy's Bachelor Party. It can't be the same as Howard's. My guess is it will probably be on a train.

 

I think Sheldon would pull out all the stops for Leonard's Bachelor party - he might have it on a replica of the Enterprise with the entire Star Trek TNG cast there.

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I think that's one thing that totally unrealistic about the show. I think she could find a guy with no trouble.

No doubt Penny could find someone. She didn't want to. It is likely she was subconsciously punishing herself for dumping Leonardon such light pretexts. That pain and guilt needed to be processed. She needed to earn her way back to Leonard by being available.

Edited by hamerman55
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Priya may have been the worst thing to happen to Leonard (combining an emotionally needy person with someone who has no scruples and no compunction against using people will never turn out well), but she was arguably the best thing to happen to Penny, as she forced Penny to confront her feelings for him and realize what a mistake it was to break up with him. So, in a sense, we can thank Priya for bring Lenny back together. Doesn't mean I ever want to see the unethical bitch again. ;)

I suppose you are correct in hind sight. But I firmly believe that the story could have still been told without Penny breaking up with Leonard. Also, no one can convince me that Penny sleeping with Raj was anywhere remotely necessary. That night she already poured her heart out to Raj saying she made a big mistake in breaking up with Leonard. She already had hit rock bottom at that point there was no need for them sleeping together. Then the next episode was just totally lame in my opinion how the writers squirmed their way out of it.

However, getting back to Penny breaking up with Leonard and the witch coming into the picture. The writers could have easily taken care of the issues with both Penny and Leonard without the break-up. Look at Shamy for goodness sake. They have a hell of longer road to go to get in sync yet the writers are working their issues out without them breaking up and having relationships with other people.

I guess all I'm saying is even after they are now engaged, I still firmly believe the writers could have told the Lenny story without the crap they went through.

Thank you for listening to my last rant (I hope) post Lenny engagement! :)

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This a really interesting topic. I can see a lot of valid points being put forth. My opinion is that the later part of season 3 and all of season 4 was a journey of enlightenment for Penny. She found herself in a comfortable relationship with a man very different from those she had in the past. In Leonard she found someone who not only adored her and treated her with respect but someone with a completely different history and experience than hers. When that relationship suddenly became uncomfortable (Leonard's statement of his love) she panicked. In taking the advice of Wil Wheaton she thought she was going to spare Leonard heartache in the long run. Instead they both suffered, Penny perhaps even more because she was silent about it.

Zack was her attempt at going back to the "same old same old". Her only problem was that it was still Leonard that had her heart. As he navigated through his time away from Penny, Leonard found a partner whose history and education for more in line with his own. Again despite his relationship with Priya it was always Penny that had his heart.

As much as I hate that she woke up and found herself in bed with Raj, I think that was the beginning of their road back to one another.

Just my thoughts. It would be neat to have this discussion go forward.

Sent from my iPhone using

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I was going to say something, but you're aware of my thoughts on the Raj/Penny thing. ;)

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This a really interesting topic. I can see a lot of valid points being put forth. My opinion is that the later part of season 3 and all of season 4 was a journey of enlightenment for Penny. She found herself in a comfortable relationship with a man very different from those she had in the past. In Leonard she found someone who not only adored her and treated her with respect but someone with a completely different history and experience than hers. When that relationship suddenly became uncomfortable (Leonard's statement of his love) she panicked. In taking the advice of Wil Wheaton she thought she was going to spare Leonard heartache in the long run. Instead they both suffered, Penny perhaps even more because she was silent about it.

Zack was her attempt at going back to the "same old same old". Her only problem was that it was still Leonard that had her heart. As he navigated through his time away from Penny, Leonard found a partner whose history and education for more in line with his own. Again despite his relationship with Priya it was always Penny that had his heart.

As much as I hate that she woke up and found herself in bed with Raj, I think that was the beginning of their road back to one another.

Just my thoughts. It would be neat to have this discussion go forward.

Sent from my iPhone using

Tapatalk

 

I thought all that stuff with Priya and probably Raj was fine....because the writers needed some story....

 

but the whole thing with Penny thinking about dumping Leonard once again after they get back together and the need for Alex in order to make Penny realize she did not want to break up Leonard was kind of lame.....and a bit ridiculous :p

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I thought all that stuff with Priya and probably Raj was fine....because the writers needed some story....

 

but the whole thing with Penny thinking about dumping Leonard once again after they get back together and the need for Alex in order to make Penny realize she did not want to break up Leonard was kind of lame.....and a bit ridiculous :p

 

The Raj/Penny thing showed how different the sitcom world is, as everything was smoothed over by the end of the following episode - but it did lead to one of my favorite lines in the series -  "You can't ruin a friendship with sex, that's like trying to ruin ice cream with chocolate sprinkles" - I haven't looked at ice cream or sprinkles the same way since. :)

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I am so jealous of Leonard (LOL). No lawn to mow, clean freak flat mate who doesn't make mess, girlfriend he can call out to across the hall if he wants company, girlfriend who he can leave across the hall if he just wants to read a book, money for toys, a SAAB, can do math...

He really did have to struggle for things to regret, and he has time now for travel. I suggest that in S8 he will get a serious offer from Europe or the UK. Or Princeton. There has to be something pending to generate the drama/comedic situations. Alternatively, Penny's career starts going gangbusters and that's where the drama originates. Or maybe Penny's brother moves in across the hall. S8 will need some bombshells, just like Raj then Priya were terrific bombshells that drove this pair's story in S4 and S5.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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I am so jealous of Leonard (LOL). No lawn to mow, clean freak flat mate who doesn't make mess, girlfriend he can call out to across the hall if he wants company, girlfriend who he can leave across the hall if he just wants to read a book, money for toys, a SAAB, can do math...

He really did have to struggle for things to regret, and he has time now for travel. I suggest that in S8 he will get a serious offer from Europe or the UK. Or Princeton. There has to be something pending to generate the drama/comedic situations. Alternatively, Penny's career starts going gangbusters and that's where the drama originates. Or maybe Penny's brother moves in across the hall. S8 will need some bombshells, just like Raj then Priya were terrific bombshells that drove this pair's story in S4 and S5.

With all due respect to your very interesting yet agonizing Lenny story lines for season 8. I suspect that next season will inevitably be Sheldon / Shamy centric and Raj / Emily thrown in for good measure with the Lenny extreme drama coming when they are closer to their wedding day. But who knows? Just a guess on my part. :)

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I suppose you are correct in hind sight. But I firmly believe that the story could have still been told without Penny breaking up with Leonard. Also, no one can convince me that Penny sleeping with Raj was anywhere remotely necessary. That night she already poured her heart out to Raj saying she made a big mistake in breaking up with Leonard. She already had hit rock bottom at that point there was no need for them sleeping together. Then the next episode was just totally lame in my opinion how the writers squirmed their way out of it.

However, getting back to Penny breaking up with Leonard and the witch coming into the picture. The writers could have easily taken care of the issues with both Penny and Leonard without the break-up. Look at Shamy for goodness sake. They have a hell of longer road to go to get in sync yet the writers are working their issues out without them breaking up and having relationships with other people.

I guess all I'm saying is even after they are now engaged, I still firmly believe the writers could have told the Lenny story without the crap they went through.

Thank you for listening to my last rant (I hope) post Lenny engagement! :)

 

This has been discussed before on this forum years ago but this is what I recall. During season 3, Steve Molaro was given some story lines from Chuck Lorre and pretty much told this is what we are going to do. To Molaro's surprise (and apparent disappointment) Lorre wanted L/P broken up. We can deduce the rest from what happened after the breakup.

 

Lorre wanted the version of Penny that was forced on him by CBS and WB in the second pilot to be more street tough and edgier like the "Katie" character of the failed first pilot. The Penny character was almost a complete revision of Katie. Katie was a LA street punk living on her wits and using men to get by. She was a heavy alcohol  user and had the sexual mores of a hooker. Penny was a 21 year naive Nebraska farm girl who loved a stupid muscle head, named Kurt for 4 years. She wanted to be a movie star and believed she was only weeks away from discovery. She was more clueless victim than user. When TBBT became successful during season 3 thanks to a lead-in slot behind Two and a Half Men, Lorre felt he could restore his original vision of the show's leading lady.

 

At the start of season 4, Penny was substantially different.

 

- The woman who bought the guys Chinese food in the pilot and in season 2 tried to protect them from the "Dead Hooker" was now not carrying any money and mooching rent from Leonard.

 

- She was hurt in both season 1 and 2 by guys she thought she was going to build a life with and complained that she hadn't had sex in 6 months, now had Sheldon calculating her bed mates in the dozens just by what he had heard in the hallway.

 

- She had seldom been seen tipsy in the first three season (curiously, twice because of her future mother-in-law and once to try to get comfortable sex with Leonard). In season 4 we see her get passed out drunk because of her depression over Leonard.

 

To give a little sympathy for the Devil, Lorre is a whole lot smarter about the running of sitcoms then mere fans. I think he saw that the Penny he was forced to write in season 1 did not have a logical reason to resist Leonard for long. He did not see their differences as being great enough not for them to be married by season 5. Leonard was a good guy and Penny was a good girl, what would be their problem? Level of geekiness? The quest would have been over by now.

 

Still, in my personal opinion the rewrite of Penny to make her have a list of new faults starting in season 4, still irritates because it was done with such a ham-fist. The writers may have made her more "interesting", like the original vision of Lorre's Katie, but there was a reason that Katie did not make it.

Edited by BangerMain
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With all due respect to your very interesting yet agonizing Lenny story lines for season 8. I suspect that next season will inevitably be Sheldon / Shamy centric and Raj / Emily thrown in for good measure with the Lenny extreme drama coming when they are closer to their wedding day. But who knows? Just a guess on my part. :)

Yup, they could be relegated to a supporting role and hum along reasonably happily as second string to the other idiots and then play bridezilla games later on closer to the event. I wish them more because this season was sooooooo much Sheldon. And this last episode (Proton Decay?) was a big band aid for Shelly, setting him to further move into the L/P space.

Alternatively they could play with witty banter for L/P and make them entertaining with that or similar, as we just saw about the funeral.. That would be my preference, because I wish these two well, but historically TPTB have shown a predilection for throwing big rocks in the L/P pond and then making their stories run on the ensuing ripples.

We will just have to see and wait.

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This has been discussed before on this forum years ago but this is what I recall. During season 3, Steve Molaro was given some story lines from Chuck Lorre and pretty much told this is what we are going to do. To Molaro's surprise (and apparent disappointment) Lorre wanted L/P broken up. We can deduce the rest from what happened after the breakup.

 

Lorre wanted the version of Penny that was forced on him by CBS and WB in the second pilot to be more street tough and edgier like the "Katie" character of the failed first pilot. The Penny character was almost a complete revision of Katie. Katie was a LA street punk liking on her wits and using men to get by. She was a heavy alcohol  user and had the sexual mores of a hooker. Penny was a 21 year naive Nebraska farm girl who loved a stupid muscle head, named Kurt for 4 years. She wanted to be a movie star and believed she was only weeks away from discovery. She was more clueless victim than user. When TBBT became successful during season 3 thanks to a lead-in slot behind Two and a Half Men, Lorre felt he could restore his original vision of the show's leading lady.

 

At the start of season 4, Penny was substantial different.

 

- The woman who bought the guys Chinese food in the pilot and in season 2 tried to protect them from the "Dead Hooker" was now not carrying any money and mooching rent from Leonard.

 

- She was hurt in both season 1 and 2 by guys she thought she was going to build a life with and complained that she hadn't had sex in 6 months, now had Sheldon calculating her bed mates in the dozens just by what he had heard in the hallway.

 

- She had seldom been seen tipsy in the first three season (curiously, twice because of her future mother-in-law and once to try get comfortable sex with Leonard). In season 4 we see her get passed out drunk because of her depression over Leonard.

 

To give a little sympathy for the Devil, Lorre is a whole lot smarter about the running of sitcoms then mere fans. I think he saw that the Penny he was force to write in season 1 did not have a logical reason to resist Leonard for long. He did not see their differences as being great enough not for them to be married by season 5. Leonard was a good guy and Penny was a good girl, what would be their problem? Level of geekiness? The quest would have been over by now.

 

Still, in my personal opinion the rewrite of Penny to make her have a list of new faults starting in season 4, still irritates because it was done with such a ham-fist. The writers may have made he more "interesting", like the original vision of Lorre's Katie, but there was a reason that Katie did not make it.

Very well written! However, all though I completely understand the history doesn't mean I will ever agree with most of the the situations Lorre had Penny succomb too. Nor will I believe that the road he took was the only route necessary for the success they have ultimately attained. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! :)

 

Not that it matters now. Better minds prevailed, for whatever reason, and they are now engaged! Theses are suppose to be among the best writers in the business. They can make Lenny just as interesting and funny without ruining Penny. Just look what they did in this last episode for absolute proof. 

 

Lorre could be the genius he thinks he is or maybe he just got lucky?  

Yup, they could be relegated to a supporting role and hum along reasonably happily as second string to the other idiots and then play bridezilla games later on closer to the event. I wish them more because this season was sooooooo much Sheldon. And this last episode (Proton Decay?) was a big band aid for Shelly, setting him to further move into the L/P space.

Alternatively they could play with witty banter for L/P and make them entertaining with that or similar, as we just saw about the funeral.. That would be my preference, because I wish these two well, but historically TPTB have shown a predilection for throwing big rocks in the L/P pond and then making their stories run on the ensuing ripples.

We will just have to see and wait.

As you well know, I truly hope Lenny is NOT relegated to a supporting role next season. But I just see how much the writers have invested in Sheldon's career / relationship issues and I'm not seeing how they can alleviate them with a simple sabbatical. I hope you are correct and I'm (as always) completely off base.    

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Lucky, like Elon Musk is lucky *snort* LOL.

Lol! Sort of I suppose. One had great ideas and got lucky with last minute financing, while the other already had the financing and just got lucky with his idea.

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Lol! Sort of I suppose. One had great ideas and got lucky with last minute financing, while the other already had the financing and just got lucky with his idea.

Both have been consistently successful in different ventures. Id hazard luck isn't the factor, more ability and preparedness. Which is what screwed Penny, she wasn't prepared.

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Beautifully said.

 

Since the second episode of the season, Lenny are making an emotional space for themselves that is, at least on occasion, Sheldon free. Sheldon has been noticing this and in several episodes has thrown tantrums to get attention and the Lenny spotlight back on him. Penny wants Amy to be the one who changes the emotional diapers for the "Big Baby" but Sheldon wants the status quo, Lenny as parents.

 

I love the showing of Lenny as funny without Sheldon. There is still so much to explore and it's time to take Sheldon away as the laugh catalyst for them all the time. One or both of them suffering at the whims of Sheldon has been the way to get the easy laugh. I for one would like to see less of that as they start the marriage journey together.

 

Very good point being made here, Lenny is very funny WITHOUT Sheldon.  The thing with Lenny humor it is more adult than the childish Sheldon humor and I think more and more people are getting tired of Sheldon type humor, so it might be time to move on.

 

One thing that has been bothering me more in the show, is the level of abuse Sheldon gets away with with Amy.  The treating her badly, his insults and his lack of caring about her needs in the relationship.  People should be upset about this.

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Lol! Sort of I suppose. One had great ideas and got lucky with last minute financing, while the other already had the financing and just got lucky with his idea.

Yeah, I might buy that, except with the the three year renewal of TBBT, Lorre will be the only sit-com producer to have two live action series run for ten years or longer. And, currently has another one going on it's fifth season and another in production. Not to mention he had two shows that were were critically acclaimed and doing well ratings wise, until the star became a diva on one and the star fell back into her drug and alcohol problems on another. Due to the diva, he was fired from that show, and the show promptly tanked in the ratings. In addition to those, he had another show that ran five years with critical acclaim. You don't get that many series to production, work with four different production/distribution companies, or have five series run at least five years, by luck.

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Both have been consistently successful in different ventures. Id hazard luck isn't the factor, more ability and preparedness. Which is what screwed Penny, she wasn't prepared.

Tesla Motors was on the brink of bankruptcy, at the very last moment he received the necessary backing financially to make it what it is today. Without that "fortunate" turn of events his other great idea SpaceX would never came to being. I hazard to believe you can compare his accomplishments to coming up with an idea of ruining Penny's character and it just happens to turn out good for Lorre. 

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This touches on the issue of how congruent the audience has to be with the characters and not be alienated. Penny of S1 was an idealised enigma, with perky boobs. Much more interesting in s4.

edit : maybe not entirely lol.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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Yeah, I might buy that, except with the the three year renewal of TBBT, Lorre will be the only sit-com producer to have two live action series run for ten years or longer. And, currently has another one going on it's fifth season and another in production. Not to mention he had two shows that were were critically acclaimed and doing well ratings wise, until the star became a diva on one and the star fell back into her drug and alcohol problems on another. Due to the diva, he was fired from that show, and the show promptly tanked in the ratings. In addition to those, he had another show that ran five years with critical acclaim. You don't get that many series to production, work with four different production/distribution companies, or have five series run at least five years, by luck.

 

What Lorre shows are you referring to?

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What Lorre shows are you referring to?

All of the following he created and was executive producer.

Two and a Half Men, going into it's 13th year. Production Company:Warner Brothers

Big Bang Theory, Renewed through 10 years. Production Company:Warner Brothers

Mike and Molly, Renewed for fifth season Production Company:Warner Brothers

The above shows have a lot of cross-over between producers, writers, and actors.  Due probably to Lorre liking to work with those who have done well working with him before and as they are all in production and Lorre is the head executive producer on all of them(although not the show runner any longer).  This also applies to Mom.  

Dharma and Gregg. Show ran for five years. Production Companies:20th Century Fox, More-Meadvor Productions, 4 to 6 Foot Productions. Bill Prady and Eddie Gorodowski (executive producers on TBBT, were writers)

All the above were also produced by Chuck Lorre Productions.

 

While Lorre was an executive producer for the following, he was not the head executive producer.

Grace Under Fire.  This show ran five years.   Brett Butler (who played Grace) wanted more control over the show, fought with Casey-Warner (the production company and executive producers (Lorre was creator and executive producer)to get Lorre fired (in a way similar to what Shepard did). The show ran five years. but after the third year, Butler had problems with an addiction to painkillers and the show went from top twenty in it's third year to 68th in it's fifth year. Casey Sander got star billing for the entire run. (Bernadette's father)

Cybill, This show ran four years. Cybill Shepard wanted more creative control over the show and was pissed that Christine Baranski won an Emmy and not her, claiming Lorre and the writers wrote better things for Baranski than for her. She had Lorre fired as executive producer, telling the network she would walk if he wasn't fired. He was kept on as a writer. Production company was Casey-Warner Eric Kaplan was a story editor.

To give you some idea of the turnover at the two above shows, TBBT has had 10 executive producers in seven years. Grace under fire went through 17 executive producers in five years. Cybill had 18 executive producers in four years.

 

 

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Tesla Motors was on the brink of bankruptcy, at the very last moment he received the necessary backing financially to make it what it is today. Without that "fortunate" turn of events his other great idea SpaceX would never came to being. I hazard to believe you can compare his accomplishments to coming up with an idea of ruining Penny's character and it just happens to turn out good for Lorre.

Penny came to LA to break into movies and TV, with no preparation, track record and only maybe latent talent. She was depending on lottery style luck.

If Tesla flopped, Musk would tried again. He had skills and capability. Nothing to do with fortune - he had a plan for making money and he persuaded others to join him.

Lorre had other projects, wrote songs (Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, French Kissing in the USA) and was experienced. So not luck for him, either.

But I think the issue I have is on the point of "ruined". I don't think she was "ruined". She had problems and had to work through them. Maybe the drinking was a latent thing, because absent mum is a boozer. I don't know, but I'm good with watching her work through her problems, because all in all it's entertaining, frustrating though bits of it are. MAYBE Lorre made those changes because it was good commercial storytelling, without which there would be no S10. That's good for everyone. :)

And maybe Lorre could of let it run and we'd all be done, as BangerMain said. Penny as Mrs Cleaver, perhaps, by now. LOL.

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Penny came to LA to break into movies and TV, with no preparation, track record and only maybe latent talent. She was depending on lottery style luck.

If Tesla flopped, Musk would tried again. He had skills and capability. Nothing to do with fortune - he had a plan for making money and he persuaded others to join him.

Lorre had other projects, wrote songs (Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, French Kissing in the USA) and was experienced. So not luck for him, either.

But I think the issue I have is on the point of "ruined". I don't think she was "ruined". She had problems and had to work through them. Maybe the drinking was a latent thing, because absent mum is a boozer. I don't know, but I'm good with watching her work through her problems, because all in all it's entertaining, frustrating though bits of it are. MAYBE Lorre made those changes because it was good commercial storytelling, without which there would be no S10. That's good for everyone. :)

And maybe Lorre could of let it run and we'd all be done, as BangerMain said. Penny as Mrs Cleaver, perhaps, by now. LOL.

I never said she needed to be Mr. Ward Cleaver. All I said was IMHO they could have made it funny and still not have Penny break up with Leonard. But most importantly I still don't see why they had to have her sleep with Raj. With her doing the walk of shame and Raj acting like his normal jerk self even when he knew he couldn't do it when it counted.

However, all of the rationalizing over the past means nothing but peoples opinions. The main thing is that they are now in a wonderful place and are engaged. And I'll continue to fast forward over the Pryia scenes whenever I watch episodes with her in them. Everyone has an opinion and everyone's opinion is just as good as the next person's.

P.S.: Tensor, I didn't mean any disrespect to the all powerfull Lorre. :)

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I never took it as such SodidIwin, I was just pointing out that getting 40 seasons worth live action sitcoms on the air is a major achievement and can not be put down to luck.

I also think we tend to forget the situation the show was in at the end of season four. It had spent season four in a new time slot, opening an entire new night of comedy for CBS. It was also going against American Idol, just coming down from it Death Star status(something TBBT now carries). It had lost a half of demo point, and just over a million viewers from the previous season. Whether anyone in fandom agrees with how season four ended, more people tuned in to that first show in season five, than any of the episodes in season four(5.1 had 14.34 million, the high in season four was 14.03 for 4.1).

I know there were other factors in play for the rest of the season's growth, but getting over a million people more than your average from the previous year is a major deal.

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Changing the subject from Lorre, though you made some very good points Tensor, I was thinking we are going to have to have a Leonard meeting the parents episode now. It would not make sense for a farm girl from Nebraska to not introduce her future husband to her parents and family before she marries him. Leonard's family may be another matter, because except for his mother he doesn't seem to be in contact with any of them, as Sheldon even knows more about his mother.

There are a lot of episodes that could contain things about their wedding plans in the next year. Howard and Bernadette's wedding was rushed, but it still occupied several episodes. I can see things coming up like where they are going to have it, the dresses, the food (open bar?), the exact date and other things. I would like to see them have Penny's sister come for the dress fitting and suddenly decide she wants a PhD too, so starts hitting on Raj or Sheldon really hard. I would also like to see Penny stress out before the wedding. I actually think Penny stressing out a day or two before the wedding, crying to Leonard and them running off to Las Vegas makes sense.

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