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Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread

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Yeah I think the dynamic has always been Leonard the insecure one in the relationship, due to inherently and stereotypically feeling inferior to all the guys that Penny has dated. Irony is Penny has an inherent fear and insecurity that all she has is physical beauty. Hence why she has always been threatened by Supeior women in her view, women like Priya and Alex who possess more then physical traits and characteristics. Penny is stranger in toon town, shes the odd one out, in a group full of peculiar eggheads, and strange group of people Penny is almost the peculiar one. At first it was Geek meeting hot girl next door, Geeks over time have always desired the hot girl, and suddenly through his pretty pathetic and lonely existence, of playing games every Friday night with Sheldon and Co, one moves in next door with all her atoms in the right place, disrupts his entire existence. But as time has gone on, Penny is clearly seriously re evaluating her life choices, shes 28 and all she has Physical Beauty, she has no education, no real qualification's, no real career prospects, so looks are not everything. So its always been said Penny has settled for Leonard, well maybe its the complete opposite and maybe its not settling, Leonard and Penny have no business being with each other, but they didn't settle for each other, they choose each other theirs a difference. And I do believe Penny is done questioning her relationship with Leonard, shes not the same matarilistic, shallow girl next door who has this various options from her dating life to her career, and even if she did she would choose Leonard every single time, shes fully embraced their relationship. S3 "Experimental" relationship, S5 "Beta" version relationship to iron out bugs in their relationship, and the final product was S6 and S7, where they have both become equals and Penny has now fallen in love with Leonard as corny as that sounds haha. They always shared an unspoken bond, but Penny is almost believing in it now, instead of keeping it at arms distance, or hulking out when things go wrong, its a much more honest relationship now. Penny could get lucky with her acting career who knows, but at this stage her only option is to get lucky.  

Edited by 3ku11
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Nogra, I've been reading the last few pages and I agree with you on Sheldon's sexist remarks. The only thing that bothers me is that a handful of misogynistic chumps on this thread have said the exact same thing, going so far as to call Penny a "slut" and insisting that all the casual sex Leonard has had is somehow completely different, and no one has said anything. Sheldon is unpopular around here, but he echoes the crap spewed out by supposed Lenny fans. 

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Well it may be a double standard, but women are held to higher standards for what ever reason when it comes to how active their dating lifestyle is. Look at Charlie in Taahm he could be considered a "slut", and he is WAAAAY more active then Penny, yet he comes across cool and a player, yet Penny has no depth of character because she had a few flings, or some of her relationships when she was younger were Physical relationships. Penny what dated 5 guys from s1-3 (Before Leonard), which she is perfectly entitled too. She didn't go out every night and hook up with random guys every single weekend, like Charlie would do with women in Taahm. Clearly based on societies conventions Penny is expected to hang out with a different crowd, "cheerleader" type friends. and has probably gone to all the cool parties e.t.c. Penny's the hot girl next door who dated a certain type of guy, where as Leonard is the nerdy guy next door who is not really adept at being a womanizer, so maybe if some are being misogynistic, is because Penny obviously is a lot more experiences knows what she is doing, where as Leonard is the socially awkward guy, so Penny stands out more as a "slut" not that she is, and not that their is any excuse for labelling her as one, just because of her social identity.

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Nogra, I've been reading the last few pages and I agree with you on Sheldon's sexist remarks. The only thing that bothers me is that a handful of misogynistic chumps on this thread have said the exact same thing, going so far as to call Penny a "slut" and insisting that all the casual sex Leonard has had is somehow completely different, and no one has said anything. Sheldon is unpopular around here, but he echoes the crap spewed out by supposed Lenny fans.

Yes. Well. It's a matter that needs to be thought through, without being constrained by history and pre-science & per-enlightenment culture. I'm not a deep thinker on this, but I don't get why being an innie or an outie makes a difference if you have the right technology. But the revolution continues. I came to this site on this very argument in October/November 2012.

Penny can do what ever she wants, within legal bounds, and everyone else has to lump it. But the bitching is free - both ways. And I have removed people from my view if they have really ticked me off. It's easily enough done in the preference settings. :)

Edit: I just wanted to come back and add that the thread is about the show and not the posters. I can disagree with the posters about the show and express my opinion of how the world should be by commenting on the show. That's why I get stuck into say, Voldemort, rather than say, Goblyn-in-a-trench coat, who was an absolute ass and was banned and was never going to be convinced by argument. But if Leonard smacks someone on screen for being a misogynist then that is much more likely to have an impact on any L/P fan than by me huffing.

It was pretty ugly back in late 2012 btw.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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Well trashing Penny's life choices is one thing, she wont come back biting seeing's shes not kaley haha, but anyone call Kaley a "slut", well that's a different story, and I haven't seen any of that on this site, so until then I don't think its a problem personally.

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Well trashing Penny's life choices is one thing, she wont come back biting seeing's shes not kaley haha, but anyone call Kaley a "slut", well that's a different story, and I haven't seen any of that on this site, so until then I don't think its a problem personally.

The thing for me is that attacks from characters on the show are not always rebutted in the show. Leonard has been silent a couple of times too often to make me completely comfortable. He will at some point have to step up for his wife - later, or now while she is still his fiance. That will be something to see and look forward to.

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And apologizing for a double standard is just wrong.  Why hold women to a higher standard?  I've never understood why a guy can go out and hook up with some random woman, and the guy get names like cool and a player, etc, but the random woman gets names like slut or whore, etc.   It's just flat out wrong.   If it's wrong for a woman, then it should be wrong for a man, societal conventions be damned.  

 

And speaking of societal conventions, lets call bullshit on those.  Those type of things have been used through history to deny equality, they're being used today to deny equal rights.   Leonard's had nine sexual partners since the beginning of the show, Penny has been show to have had four, (possibly five).  All but one of which (Leonard) has been more than three and a half years ago.    Yet Penny is the one who is the slut?  WHY?  Because of her actions in Nebraska as a teenager or the several guys between Kurt and Leonard?   Why is everything about Penny being focused on those actions of her early years (and the early years of the show)?   She's been known to have had ONE sex partner since New Years three and a half years ago. Leonard has had three.  Trying to blow off her being called a slut, as she's had more experiences buys into the bullshit that is the double standard.  The only way to fight it, is to not allow it.  

and more of what he said.

 

and this: 

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It's all part of the culture, and its ideals ,systems, and values. We live in a very image conscious world, people men in particular just expect women to act and behave a certain way. Yet for example Leonard has had more sexual partners then Penny over the past three years, he comes across as "Oh the geeky, socially awkward guy finally got some!" Yet Penny is "Oh just another line of her conquests, stop acting so promiscuous!". It's part of society, been around for thousands of years, well at least its not as bad in some countries, where the ramptant sexism is so bad, in some countries women are not even allowed to show skin. So Penny living in Western Civilization should count her lucky stars, just out of curiosity was Pennys ONE sexual partner on NYE in Season 3 Zac? Pretty sure it was. Although she admitted she only got back together with him because she coulden't be with Leonard (her look implied as much), and she didn't want to be alone on NYE, her words "How pathetic is that". But your right its unacceptable, BBT may just be a show, but it portrays real people, and real life situations, and not just in BBT its part of the worlds culture too. We all know Sheldon constantly takes jabs at Penny's romantic history, he even while on a date with Amy, listed all of Penny's romantic conquests, he calculated who knows a lot haha. From my calculation, we see Penny half an hour a week, we don't possibly no how much flings shes had, with random guys at a bar. But from what we saw the guys she dated were actual relationships not shallow empty one night stands, 90 times out of a hundred. I too think its high time Leonard starts sticking up for Penny, he always stays silent, and I know its part of his character, but it has always bugged me neither Penny nor Leonard has ever stood up for each other, hope that changes, like in S3 when Bev visited, Leonard found out about his parents getting divorced, and dog dieing Penny didn't seem to be bothered just got Bev drunk lol anyway.  

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It's all part of the culture, and its ideals ,systems, and values. We live in a very image conscious world, people men in particular just expect women to act and behave a certain way.

This in no way makes it right and explaining it away as just something men expect or as part of the culture is wrong. Slavery was part of the culture also, that didn't make it right. The only way to fight such thinking, for many of us, is to continuously point out just how wrong it is. Not try to explain it as part of the culture.

Yes, Zack in season FOUR at the NYE party. Season three was the surprise party and the bouncing light off the moon. We found out this year that they were together at Thanksgiving in Season four also. But still, he was Penny's only other sexual partner (that we know of) from their break-up in season three to them getting back together in season five. In fact, you have to go back to the tenth episode of season two to find her having sex with someone other than Leonard or Zack). Leonard had four (and almost five) others (that we know of) after the breakup.

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Of course explaining the culture does not make it right, clearly continusley saying its wrong, only then things well change. I was only just trying to explain why culture is like that, and why specifically their are double standards, of course this does not make it right but its the way it is, until things change.

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And apologizing for a double standard is just wrong. Why hold women to a higher standard? I've never understood why a guy can go out and hook up with some random woman, and the guy get names like cool and a player, etc, but the random woman gets names like slut or whore, etc. It's just flat out wrong. If it's wrong for a woman, then it should be wrong for a man, societal conventions be damned.

And speaking of societal conventions, lets call bullshit on those. Those type of things have been used through history to deny equality, they're being used today to deny equal rights. Leonard's had nine sexual partners since the beginning of the show, Penny has been show to have had four, (possibly five). All but one of which (Leonard) has been more than three and a half years ago. Yet Penny is the one who is the slut? WHY? Because of her actions in Nebraska as a teenager or the several guys between Kurt and Leonard? Why is everything about Penny being focused on those actions of her early years (and the early years of the show)? She's been known to have had ONE sex partner since New Years three and a half years ago. Leonard has had three. Trying to blow off her being called a slut, as she's had more experiences buys into the bullshit that is the double standard. The only way to fight it, is to not allow it.

One of the great perplexing questions is why , while Big Bang is considered to be an intelligent comedy, it still sinks to the same sexist level as TAAHM.

It's wrong on every level to depict Penny as a slut.

The double standard is ridiculous considering what's already been said about Leonard - Plimpton was almost straight after the supposedly heartbreaking split. Priya was not long after his anguished look on NYE and Love Car, Mrs Latham was just......wow and Alice he was debating while supposedly in love with Priya.

Penny on the other hand - Kurt was long term, Mike was a committed relationship and Zac was a perfectly reasonable relationship during a tough time. And as soon as she found out about Dave Underhill being married she dropped the creep.

Several times during Season 4 she mentioned to the girls she had not been in a relationship or had sex for months and wasn't desperate for it.

So in the reality of the actual show, she is in no way a slut.

So it comes down to the lazy sexist joke writing to go with the stereotype of her being the hot blonde around the nerds. Sheldon is the worst offender and can be absolutely callous in his remarks but everyone throws one liners in as insults against her, including Penny herself.

In Season 7 she has been portrayed as a far more mature and smart person but Sheldon is still used way too much still to insult her with the slut inferences.

Hopefully it will stop now with the engagement and the change coming. If it doesn't straight away Leonard has to finally tell Sheldon to shut the @$& up or else to send the message that enough is enough. It shouldn't be up to Penny although she shouldn't suffer in silence either.

There are plenty of jokes to be written about Penny and the gang without mimicking the crap that comes out of Two and a Half Men.

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Hey Im a big Two and a half men fan (With Charlie) haha so don't degrade or bring down that show to make a point. I woulden't say because their is some form of sexism from fans or some characters on the show, that automatically means it brings I down to a hedonistic, mysoginistic show. These are still real people, who are not perfect, so its more just a writing thing, and I do agree its just stereotyping. It's funny when it comes to being level headed Penny has proven to be the most level headed, for all the jokes about her sex history, I remember for example in S4 the girls were about to go out, and remember Bernadette or Amy talked about one night stands, and Penny was like "Yeah but its not the best idea, you feel really bad afterwards" I think Bernadette was like " Yeah but I just want to leave bite marks". Penny showed a lot more maturity and level headness, that's probably because of her experiences, she also started at that stage of her life, started to outgrow those dumb gym guy types, and could no longer tolerate that lifestyle. Which obviously she has blamed Leonard for this haha, but she needed that change, without Leonard she would probably still going in a cycle of dumb gym guys, still resting on her lorrals, and never growing. S1 their was Kurt, three other relationships, and prob 3 other sexual partners, which is not againgst the law but she never lied about her dating lifestyle, she had no reason to be ashamed or hide it.  Barb Sublim she hasent had sex in 2 months, after her date with Leonard, she then dated other guys because of the fear of being too "dumb" for Leonard, thanks to Sheldon inadvertently putting the idea in her head.

 

Then obviously David Underhill made her get over that idea or theory. Then their was Stuart a Leonard substitute, then the guys expedition, made the heart grow fonder. Then their relationship for most of S3, then their was Zac her only sexual partner other then her one night stand with Leonard, which I understood why she did that more then most mysoginistic fans. So only one sexual partner since S3, then S5 obviously Lenny reunited. Leonard on the other hand has had more sexual partners, he slept with that women who was giving the university the grant, Penny "Hey Slut!" haha, Slutbunny e.t.c. He cheated on Priya a women he susposidly loved, with some random chick just because she put out. Remember after Leonard slept with another women (slutbunny), just after he broke up with Penny, Penny was like "We just broke up". And his reasoning was like "She let me". So while I understand Leonard is the socially awkward geek, he is not as innocent as some fans like to think he is, difference is Penny is honest about her past, yet Leonard gets away with it, because society deems him innocent because he is 1. A guy and 2. A nerd. So I completely agree, explaning the behaviour does not help, only continousley saying it is wrong things well change.     

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I never understood the double standard, starting with when I found out that being with girls was fun. Logic to me was that if I wanted to have sex, then I needed to find a girl that also wanted to have sex. The guys trashing girls because they "put out" seemed the height of stupidity. Even now, I hear the girls in my research lab disparaging other girls for being "easy" as a reason why they can't find decent guys. First of all, how do they know? Is someone spreading tales which may or may not be true? And why is it a big deal? This generation seems to have gotten over many racial stereotypes, but as far as this sort of thing goes, the double standard is alive and well.

The evidence on the show is that Bernie got around far more than Penny. Recall that she was the one that explained the three date "rule" to Howard, basically implying that she was ready to put out. Clearly Amy is dying to have sex with Sheldon, and participated in studies that induced orgasm, so why isn't she a slut? Mainly because she didn't have the social skills or appearance to make it happen. Penny is gorgeous and dresses hot, so she must be a slut. Bernie dresses demurely, and likely got around quite a bit. She was attracted to Howard, after all. Priya hooked up with Leonard every chance she got a chance just as an occasional visitor, and was chatting up her old boyfriend while sleeping with Leonard.

The only one that seems to persist in characterizing Penny as a slut is Sheldon, which as has been mentioned, only rejects that God part of his repressive upbringing, but clings to all the rest. In this regard, even his mother has better balance. Sheldon has no idea what he is talking about, and Leonard should make it clear that his place in their lives will end if he ever disparages Penny again, for any reason.

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In fact, when Sheldon comes back, there should be a change to the Roommate Agreement to the effect that comments disparaging Penny's virtue, regardless of any evidence or hypotheses, constitutes an Agreement nullifying offense, and an end to the Leonard and Sheldon Friendship. And that this is non-negotiable.

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One of the things that has struck me about Leonard is that he is an egalitarian at heart. He never thought Penny was beneath him, because of her education and he never thought she was beyond him because of her looks. He found her attractive - which is not an unusual place to start - but he did not assume that to be any barrier. Penny responded to that.  Also, as I recall, he has never mocked her for having stereotypical interests, like her fondness  or shoes, or her liking for gridiron and whatever it is the Lakers play.  And, even with the cooking thing that she is not so good at, he doesn't call her out for not conforming to any stereotype. None of this "get your womenfolk in line" crap. And he never judged her for her sexual past.

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And he never judged her for her sexual past.

He'd have no room to, as his is quite wild.

Agreed on the rest though.

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I know it has probably been mentioned so I do not know who to credit.  I have found it interesting that the core of Leonard and Penny's relationship was developed without the sexual component (taking it slow).  This was at the insistence of Penny.  IMHO she wanted to develop Lenny outside of the bedroom and when sex was off the table she was the one who maintained the contact.  When Leonard said he only did things for sex or when Leonard took advantage of Penny, she reacted.  My point is that Leonard was treated with a different set of rules when it came to Penny's sexual availability.

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I never really liked that episode when Leonard said he did stuff with penny to get sex. She's his girlfriend so he going to get it anyway. Also that was S3 when they were at it like rabbits. So it just doesn't make sense he would do that, its give a bad impression of leonard as he was only in the relationship for the sex even though we know thats not true. yeah, not one of my favourite episodes. L/P have grown alot since then and it baffles me why the writers went there again in The Raiders Minimization. Lame

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I never really liked that episode when Leonard said he did stuff with penny to get sex. She's his girlfriend so he going to get it anyway. Also that was S3 when they were at it like rabbits. So it just doesn't make sense he would do that, its give a bad impression of leonard as he was only in the relationship for the sex even though we know thats not true. yeah, not one of my favourite episodes. L/P have grown alot since then and it baffles me why the writers went there again in The Raiders Minimization. Lame

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Yeah, I feel the same way, but remember Penny was the same way, Raj told her that sex was the only arrow in her quiver.  They were like two bunnies in season 3, but that was probably like all Penny's relationships before and Leonard was so stuck on her that he was just following her lead.  I think since they got back together we have seen a deeper relationship between them.  We now see them working together, 'Team Hofstadter', and dealing with serious stuff, like Penny's career.  We really didn't get that stuff in Season 3, them working on things that benefited them as a couple, so their relationship now is much deeper than season 3.  Anyway I sort of wonder if the reason we don't see so many bed scenes anymore is that the writers are trying to put that across, that they are more than just sex now.

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Yeah, I feel the same way, but remember Penny was the same way, Raj told her that sex was the only arrow in her quiver. They were like two bunnies in season 3, but that was probably like all Penny's relationships before and Leonard was so stuck on her that he was just following her lead. I think since they got back together we have seen a deeper relationship between them. We now see them working together, 'Team Hofstadter', and dealing with serious stuff, like Penny's career. We really didn't get that stuff in Season 3, them working on things that benefited them as a couple, so their relationship now is much deeper than season 3. Anyway I sort of wonder if the reason we don't see so many bed scenes anymore is that the writers are trying to put that across, that they are more than just sex now.

I agree that since S3 their relationship has moved to a higher level and all is good but I just hate how they went back to leonard manipulating penny into having sex with him in The Raiders Minimization. They didn't need to go there like you said, they are more than just sex now. But must admit I did love the line. You still go left.

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I know it has probably been mentioned so I do not know who to credit.  I have found it interesting that the core of Leonard and Penny's relationship was developed without the sexual component (taking it slow).  This was at the insistence of Penny.  IMHO she wanted to develop Lenny outside of the bedroom and when sex was off the table she was the one who maintained the contact.  When Leonard said he only did things for sex or when Leonard took advantage of Penny, she reacted.  My point is that Leonard was treated with a different set of rules when it came to Penny's sexual availability.

 

This is so true.

 

When ever there used to be the claim that Leonard wanted Penny only for sexual favors, I would think if this was the case, Leonard was an idiot. He went two years wanting Penny without getting sex. In the mean time he was having Drs. Leslie and Stephanie who literally threw it at him. Penny decided, slowly, that she wanted Leonard again during season 2. She flat out sabotaged Stephanie, walking into 4A wearing only her underwear as Stephanie was leaving for work. Penny always knew Leonard was hers for the taking when she wanted him and she wanted him because of how he treated her when they were not having sex. Same thing for season 4 and 5, the Priya time. They were back as a couple in the middle of season 5 and did not have sex until the end. Poor Leonard must have been ready to explode. No wonder he proposed on their first sex session since season 3.

 

It has been made abundantly apparent that L/P has sex as a secondary component. They have spent more time not having sex while being friends (4 years) then being sexual partners :

 

3/4 of season 3,

1/24 of season 5,

23/24 of season 6 (ignoring the Leonard North Sea expedition)

23/24 of season 7

 

Since the Pilot, what Leonard has wanted from Penny is for her to be his wife and the mother of his "Smart and Beautiful Babies". That fact has settled into Penny slowly, it freaked her out at first and she has finally gotten comfortable with it. She thought it had to be the sex at first, that's what all men wanted from her, Leonard even told her it was the sex after the first "Beta test" date, because that she could believe without being weirded out. Now she is quite secure after testing Leonard for years, that he wants her for a higher purpose.

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I know it has probably been mentioned so I do not know who to credit. I have found it interesting that the core of Leonard and Penny's relationship was developed without the sexual component (taking it slow). This was at the insistence of Penny. IMHO she wanted to develop Lenny outside of the bedroom and when sex was off the table she was the one who maintained the contact. When Leonard said he only did things for sex or when Leonard took advantage of Penny, she reacted. My point is that Leonard was treated with a different set of rules when it came to Penny's sexual availability.

.

Good point Squidley.

It's interesting that in Recombination Hypothesis, it's Leonard's scenario dream that has Penny initiating the sex, like that's all she has to offer but the reality is that she is the one who wants to develop the new relationship slowly without the sex. Then when she finally decides it time to go faster, she still puts in the proviso that she doesn't want to do anything to ruin the relationship that had them in such a place. The same thought was evident after their first date in Season 2 ep 1. She wanted to take things slow because she wanted something more than sex.

I think for a long time she thought Leonard only appreciated her for the sex. The S3 I love you came after sex ( although Yoda quote helped), the first proposal came during sex. When she had that S6 epiphany moment of I forgot how smart you are and that's why she loves him, she thought she had to give him sex to show him. In Raiders, sex was the solution to his sadness. But it was all about the idea that Leonard needed sex from her, not the other way around that she was the sex crazed one.

That's why the toning down of the sex in the second half of Season 7 is so important to the relationship. The car gift scene is great because she doesn't know what to say and he says she doesn't have to say anything. It's like you don't have to do anything. I just want you to be happy - it doesn't have to be about me getting something back.

The proposal knock backs from Leonard are important because he always stresses it's about her being happy, not him.

Telling Sheldon during the living arrangements talk that he wants to give Penny the life she deserves.

That's why the engagement is solid because it's no longer about the sex, which it was in Season 3 and that's why it ultimately failed back then.

And Season 8 can then be about building story lines around their non sexual relationship and doing other things together. Penny accepting her interest in geek culture and Leonard finally enjoying a Nebraska football match or a Lakers game. This needs to happen to erase all doubt and make marriage a rock solid deal.

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