Spoilers Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread

[JonRS92]

I think in 6.2 B/A were wanting Penny to tell leonard how she was feeling not necessarily wanting for her to break up. In the ILY the L/P discussion was over. Leonard was going to go into his apartment. Penny pursued him which led to the ILY. At that point she really wasn't that mad at him anymore. They actually did talk it out.

 

 

No, the weren't. Bernadette asks if she loves him. When Penny states she does, asks if she's told him that and states she didn't know Penny was unhappy. Amy ASKS if she is breaking up with him. But, at no time do they encourage her to break up Leonard.

 

Let me put it another way then.  They do not try and turn Penny away from breaking up with him.  As a matter of fact, after Penny sleeps with Leonard instead of breaking up with him they kind of make fun of her choice.  Bernie is sarcastic through that whole conversation and both she and Amy mock her with puppy dog faces.  If these two, at that point, were in favor of that relationship continuing then why didn't they try and talk her out of it or start pointing out all of the reasons that she and Leonard are good together?  Were those two not the ones who were there all through season 4 as Penny regretted breaking up with Leonard?  Who shared in her Priya bashing?  They were really supportive then.  Why the change in 6.2 to almost apathy as it regarded to the relationship?  I am sure they still were pro-Penny and wanted her to be happy, but I mean Penny admitted to being happy albeit bored.  From what we know from subsequent episodes I think we can assume that her boredom was a symptom of her somewhat selfish outlook on their relationship up to that point.  Both of them switched back to pro-Lenny rather than just pro-Penny in 6.5.  Now Bernie at least appears to be back to Pro-Penny but not necessarily Pro-Lenny in season 7.  Please keep in mind that I am just analyzing what were are hearing about in spoilers.  If you've followed my other thoughts on this whole thing you know that I don't view this Lenny drama with any sense of genuine concern that there is going to be lingering drama from this episode.  I am just looking at it from a character point of view and only actions we have seen.  To that end I could go on longer on Bernie's character inconsistencies alone, but that's not what we are here to talk about

[Chrismo]

Let me put it another way then.  They do not try and turn Penny away from breaking up with him.  As a matter of fact, after Penny sleeps with Leonard instead of breaking up with him they kind of make fun of her choice.  Bernie is sarcastic through that whole conversation and both she and Amy mock her with puppy dog faces.  If these two, at that point, were in favor of that relationship continuing then why didn't they try and talk her out of it or start pointing out all of the reasons that she and Leonard are good together?  Were those two not the ones who were there all through season 4 as Penny regretted breaking up with Leonard?  Who shared in her Priya bashing?  They were really supportive then.  Why the change in 6.2 to almost apathy as it regarded to the relationship?  I am sure they still were pro-Penny and wanted her to be happy, but I mean Penny admitted to being happy albeit bored.  From what we know from subsequent episodes I think we can assume that her boredom was a symptom of her somewhat selfish outlook on their relationship up to that point.  Both of them switched back to pro-Lenny rather than just pro-Penny in 6.5.  Now Bernie at least appears to be back to Pro-Penny but not necessarily Pro-Lenny in season 7.  Please keep in mind that I am just analyzing what were are hearing about in spoilers.  If you've followed my other thoughts on this whole thing you know that I don't view this Lenny drama with any sense of genuine concern that there is going to be lingering drama from this episode.  I am just looking at it from a character point of view and only actions we have seen.  To that end I could go on longer on Bernie's character inconsistencies alone, but that's not what we are here to talk about

I think they were both for Penny talking to Leonard. She probably deserved to be mocked. In regards to this latest episdode if Bernie says nothing she is pro Leonard. She had to make a choice in this instance. There was no pro Lenny option.

[SRAM]

6.02 drives me up a wall. If I was at Comicon this year, my first question would have been what was the goal or purpose of 6.02.

[Chrismo]

6.02 drives me up a wall. If I was at Comicon this year, my first question would have been what was the goal or purpose of 6.02.

My guess is it led to the next episode involving Alex.

[JonRS92]

I think they were both for Penny talking to Leonard. She probably deserved to be mocked. In regards to this latest episdode if Bernie says nothing she is pro Leonard. She had to make a choice in this instance. There was no pro Lenny option.

 

I agree with you that they want Penny to talk to Leonard, but that talking can take different paths.  In my opinion, in 6.2, they took the path of supporting her choice of a break up instead of trying to talk her out of it and I believe that had plenty of ammo to use to try and do that and I would argue that they SHOULD have done that given Penny's past response to breaking up with Leonard.  To be clear, neither choice is really wrong.  If those two believed that Penny really wanted to break up with Leonard then I have no problem with them supporting that. I was just responding to the original point where the poster said that the whole group is invested in the Lenny relationship working out.  I don't see that as always being the case as I believe is evidenced in 6.2.  I also do not believe that Bernie and Amy should have thought that Penny really wanted to break up.  As for there being no pro-Lenny option in 7.4, I also disagree.  While I am fully supportive of Bernie telling Penny what Leonard was doing I think she should have handled it differently.  Off the top of my head I could see Bernie approaching it something like this.  "Penny, Leonard has been using his mother's book and your sympathy to get sex from you."  Penny gets angry.  "Now, hold on just a second.  You know how his childhood was and how his mother treated him.  I am sure that book can't be good for him.  Besides, there are worse things in life than having your boyfriend be sexually attracted to you.  Now I am not saying Leonard was right, I just wanted to put it in perspective for you.  Now let's figure out a way to get the little weasel back!"

[Chrismo]

If anything i agree neither did give an opinion about her breaking up with Leonard. This led to of all people Sheldon trying to talk Penny out of it. Since the P/B discussion wasn't shown it's  hard to say what was said. The only thing we know is Bernie told Penny.

[SRAM]

What is nice about L/P is they can fight and still stay together, remember their musician friend staying overnight fight. We only have to worry about them breaking up when serious relationship issues come up.

[Tensor]

I was just replying to you saying they were encouraging her to break up with him. Being ambivalent isn't encouraging it.

[Chiara]

6.02 drives me up a wall. If I was at Comicon this year, my first question would have been what was the goal or purpose of 6.02.

I guess it was part of the launching pad for the ILY. 

The writers needed to show how fragile the relationship was, how uncertain Penny felt intially, for her subsequent epiphany (first her jealousy towards Alex, then her interest in Leonard's work and finally her love declaration) to pack some punch. 

 

I suppose there might have been a slightly less utilitarian aspect to it as well. It is after all easy to become dissatisfied with one's life, imagining that the grass will be greener somewhere else. Penny, in 6.02, was shown to have lost sight of the reasons why she got involved with Leonard in the first place and the next three episodes served as reminders.

[vasu]

I have posted this before also....

 

in 6.2 the first question amy and bernie should have asked when penny said she wanted to break-up with Leonard again was why did act the way she acted when he was dating priya.... simple and logical question.....

 

but with what we got I never got any sense that amy and bernie were even thinking about Leonard.....

Edited September 19, 2013 by vasu

[I.Am.Molly]

What is nice about L/P is they can fight and still stay together, remember their musician friend staying overnight fight. We only have to worry about them breaking up when serious relationship issues come up.

 

Definitely agree with you here. I actually think the writers are emphasising this point in this season so far.They are having little fights and little arguments in these past two episodes but they arent big enough fights to break them. I have no problem with seeing all of these kinds of plots throughout the season, as long as its laced with somenice moments between them and they continuously stay strong together depsite whatever fights they have then im happy. I think these little fights are the inevitable 'bumps along the road' the writers hinted at, and thats fine by me. They are learning each others boundaries, finding out what they can and cant get away with and in the end that will only make them stronger. At this point it would take something pretty big to break them, and im pretty confident it wont happen.

 

I cant wait to see this episode, i kinda like that Leonard is being a bit mischievous and seeing what he can get away with. I dont see it as out of character at all, it could show a growth in confidence though, something he probably got from being on the boat, but we wont really know until it airs and we see how it acted. And as some people have already said, he's just being a guy. How often is it they say men think about sex? ha! i think you would be hard pushed to find a guy that wouldnt use that book to their advantage the same way Leonard is. 'They did it in there' again, which is pretty cool, which im sure was enjoyable for the both of them.

I dont really know about the whole Penny calling his mum thing. That definitely wasnt the best way to handle the situation, but as with most of these things im gonna wait and save any real judgement for when it airs. I also cant wait to see Beverley again. The Leonard lover in me hates her just for how messed up she was as a mother and how she treats him, but i really like watching her character on this show, its just a shame it had to be over skype.

 

Anyway, thats my two cents on this whole thing.

[JonRS92]

If anything i agree neither did give an opinion about her breaking up with Leonard. This led to of all people Sheldon trying to talk Penny out of it. Since the P/B discussion wasn't shown it's  hard to say what was said. The only thing we know is Bernie told Penny.

 

Agreed.  Maybe they should have written that scene so we could see what was said.  Maybe we'd feel a little better about the whole thing if we know what Bernie told her.  More context is always good.

 

What is nice about L/P is they can fight and still stay together, remember their musician friend staying overnight fight. We only have to worry about them breaking up when serious relationship issues come up.

 

Also, agreed.  I said in a previous post that only the major issues have carried over beyond one episode.  The ILY and the proposal.  I don't think this carries over to 7.5.  We'll have to wait until next week to find out and maybe we'll all feel better then.  Of course we could feel worse too.

 

I was just replying to you saying they were encouraging her to break up with him. Being ambivalent isn't encouraging it.

 

Very true.  IMO though I think being ambivalent is almost as bad.  I think there is enough in the previous seasons to show that Bernie and Amy should have known Penny didn't really want to break up, that there was something else going on.  And to try and make my opinion on this clear, 6.2 is the only episode I think they have been this way.  They have been very encouraging of Lenny especially in 6.5.  I just wonder why the departure in 6.2. 

 

I guess it was part of the launching pad for the ILY. 

The writers needed to show how fragile the relationship was, how uncertain Penny felt intially, for her subsequent epiphany (first her jealousy towards Alex, then her interest in Leonard's work and finally her love declaration) to pack some punch. 

 

I suppose there might have been a slightly less utilitarian aspect to it as well. It is after all easy to become dissatisfied with one's life, imagining that the grass will be greener somewhere else. Penny, in 6.02, was shown to have lost sight of the reasons why she got involved with Leonard in the first place and the next three episodes served as reminders.

 

Very true.  I also think that as her friends, Amy and Bernie should have helped Penny to regain that sight in 6.2  I don't know why they didn't especially as in the very next episode Amy starts to do just that.  I also have a question for you.  Please don't think I am saying that you are wrong, but given all the heartbreak and sorrow and regret Penny showed in season 4 and pre-recombination hypothesis season 5, why would the writers have Penny have any doubts at all?  Why would she lose sight?  Everything else that happened to Penny, from the starts of jealousy in 6.3 to the selfishness in 6.5 to everything that happened after would all have worked without that crap in 6.2.  Why did the writers do that?  If you or someone else can make sense of that I would appreciate it.

I have posted this before also....

 

in 6.2 the first question amy and bernie should have asked when penny said she wanted to break-up with Leonard again was why did act the way she acted when he was dating priya.... simple and logical question.....

 

but with what we got I never got any sense that amy and bernie were even thinking about Leonard.....

 

Exactly.  Why the deviation that to me lacks any logic?

[Nogravitasatall]

What is nice about L/P is they can fight and still stay together, remember their musician friend staying overnight fight. We only have to worry about them breaking up when serious relationship issues come up.

Even at the heights of my hissy fit yesterday I did not think they would break up. I just hated that Beverly was employed to exercise power of over her (as we know) damaged son. It's like putting the abused kid back in the hands of the abuser. Note I am saying "like", not "is".

Anyway, maybe it's funny, but part of the appeal of the show is they transcend biological family. I will not harp on this further and think more of the "omg: you still do".

Edited September 19, 2013 by Nogravitasatall

[ArmyGirl]

What is nice about L/P is they can fight and still stay together, remember their musician friend staying overnight fight. We only have to worry about them breaking up when serious relationship issues come up.

 

I don't think they will break up either.  I don't like double standards and bringing in his freaking mother.

[Guest]

I don't think they will break up either.  I don't like double standards and bringing in his freaking mother.

 

I hope so. In my opinion, the issues in 7.03 and 7.04 are not THAT big. I think they need to learn and it will be forgotten in the next episode.

[Chiara]

Very true.  I also think that as her friends, Amy and Bernie should have helped Penny to regain that sight in 6.2  I don't know why they didn't especially as in the very next episode Amy starts to do just that.  I also have a question for you.  Please don't think I am saying that you are wrong, but given all the heartbreak and sorrow and regret Penny showed in season 4 and pre-recombination hypothesis season 5, why would the writers have Penny have any doubts at all?  Why would she lose sight?  Everything else that happened to Penny, from the starts of jealousy in 6.3 to the selfishness in 6.5 to everything that happened after would all have worked without that crap in 6.2.  Why did the writers do that?  If you or someone else can make sense of that I would appreciate it.

There is a part of my brain dying to be flippant and say : because the writers love drama. But I shall ignore this pernicious lobe and answer : because Penny loves drama.

 

She is an actress to the core and there is nothing she likes more than making a scene. Her previous relationships were a series of breakups and reconciliations, of hookups and screaming matches. That is what she knows and has grown to define as a "proper relationship" : meet, hook up, fight, reconcile, have sex, repeat steps 3, 4 and 5 ad nauseam until one of the participants gives up, move on with your life, back to step 1, etc.

 

The couple she forms with Leonard does not follow that pattern. Leonard is high-maintenance, an "until death do us part" sort of guy and Penny knew it in 6.02. She knew it all the better because he had pretty much told her so by proposing. This ill-timed offer forced her to imagine their relationship in the long run. She could not simply wonder whether Leonard was the man she wanted to be with this week, this month or even this year. She had to ask herself whether she truly wished to spend the rest of her natural existence with him.

 

So for a while she wobbled. She was no longer certain she wanted to commit to Leonard for the next 40 to 50 years. Then she realised that : 

- even if she was not sure she wanted to spend the rest of her life with Leonard, she was sure as hell she did not want anybody else to do it either (6.03);

- living with Leonard for the next handful of decades meant getting to listen to him talk about the universe and that was definitely something to look forward to (6.05).

Then all was well in the land...

 

Basically what I am trying to say is that she got pre-wedding jitters. While I know that she answered "no" to Leonard's proposal, thereby technically putting marriage "off the table", I also know this : with these two, marriage (very much like sex and "smart and beautiful" babies) is never really "off the table". The table may be big and there may be lots of plates and glasses in the way, but it is on there. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by Chiara

[Nogravitasatall]

. Penny gets even and everyone's mad at Penny. It seems to me its time for Leonard to get the "big boy pants" on in regards to his mother.

There may be very good grounds to think it is very difficult for Leonard to be anything but distant from his mother. He is trying to keep himself safe and away from hurt. Sometimes no contact is a good strategy (as in not touching the stove that burns you). But, like the reasons for Penny's drinking and past enthusiasms for looking for love "wrong", it's probably best not to elaborate on the backstory and read it as lightly as possible. So "big boy" pants may come.

[JonRS92]

There is a part of my brain dying to be flippant and say : because the writers love drama. But I shall ignore this pernicious lobe and answer : because Penny loves drama.

 

She is an actress to the core and there is nothing she likes more than making a scene. Her previous relationship were a series of breakups and reconciliation, of hookups and screaming matches. That is what she knows and has grown to define as a "proper relationship" : meet, hook up, fight, reconcile, have sex, repeat steps 3, 4 and 5 ad nauseam until one of the participants gives up, move on with your life, back to step 1, etc.

 

The couple she forms with Leonard does not follow that pattern. Leonard is high-maintenance, an "until death do us part" sort of guy and Penny knew it in 6.02. She knew it all the better because he had pretty much told her so by proposing. This ill-timed offer forced her to imagine their relationship in the long run. She could not simply wonder whether Leonard was the man she wanted to be with this week, this month or even this year. She had to ask herself whether she truly wished to spend the rest of her natural existence with him.

 

So for a while she wobbled. She was no longer certain she wanted to commit to Leonard for the next 40 to 50 years. Then she realised that : 

- even if she was not sure she wanted to spend the rest of her life with Leonard, she was sure as hell she did not want anybody else to do it either (6.03);

- living with Leonard for the next handful of decades meant getting to listen to him talk about the universe and that was definitely something to look forward to (6.05).

Then all was well in the land...

 

Basically what I am trying to say is that she got pre-wedding jitters. While I know that she answered "no" to Leonard's proposal, thereby technically putting marriage "off the table", I also know this : with these two, marriage (very much like sex and "smart and beautiful" babies) is never really "off the table". The table may be big and there may be lots of plates and glasses in the way, but it is on there. 

 

Your explanation makes a lot of sense and I can buy that.  And your definition of what is a relationship in Penny's mind, I would argue, is exactly why Amy and Bernie should have put her straight in 6.2.  As soon as she said that she felt in love before I would have adopted a Sheldon approach and thrown up my hands and given her a snort of derision   After season 4, they should have been no-nonsense with that rather than staying basically neutral.  As for the pre-wedding jitters as you describe, you would have thought that after NOT freaking out to the point of ending their relationship after the proposal (as she would have done in the past) you would think that she would not even consider breaking up because she was happy but bored.  But, given that I agree with you that she was in contemplative mode and, as I insist, still immature at that point, I guess I can see 6.2 being somewhat plausible.  Thanks for your explanation, it cleared it up rather nicely for me.

[gsxdoug]

Also, and this is a small detail, we do not know exactely what Beverly tells her son when she sees him on Skype. TPTB went through the trouble of having Ms. Baranski film something for them from NYC so her character must say something. Does she chastise her son ? Does she start analysing why he did what he did ?  Does she, gasp, attempt to help him, in her own weird, pathologically traumatising way ?

I would also like to know what, if anything, was said after Penny storms out. It could, potentially, spin this contraversy in a completely different direction.

[Chrismo]

Your explanation makes a lot of sense and I can buy that.  And your definition of what is a relationship in Penny's mind, I would argue, is exactly why Amy and Bernie should have put her straight in 6.2.  As soon as she said that she felt in love before I would have adopted a Sheldon approach and thrown up my hands and given her a snort of derision   After season 4, they should have been no-nonsense with that rather than staying basically neutral.  As for the pre-wedding jitters as you describe, you would have thought that after NOT freaking out to the point of ending their relationship after the proposal (as she would have done in the past) you would think that she would not even consider breaking up because she was happy but bored.  But, given that I agree with you that she was in contemplative mode and, as I insist, still immature at that point, I guess I can see 6.2 being somewhat plausible.  Thanks for your explanation, it cleared it up rather nicely for me.

One thing I don't know if you considered. Amy did tell Sheldon the situation and not to tell Leonard. Sheldon was gonna do what Sheldon wanted to do. Sheldon knows Leonard and penny better than anyone else. He decided and I think correctly to say something to penny. I think his advice Penny in this situation carried more weight than anything B/A could have said.

[Nogravitasatall]

I would also like to know what, if anything, was said after Penny storms out. It could, potentially, spin this contraversy in a completely different direction.

Yeah, but she still called his mum. No matter what embellishments they lay on this she breached their circle of trust. Horrible. (he harped)

Eta... and a little back stabby.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Nogravitasatall

[Chrismo]

Yeah, but she still called his mum. No matter what embellishments they lay on this she breached their circle of trust. Horrible. (he harped)

What is "the circle of trust"?

[gsxdoug]

Your explanation makes a lot of sense and I can buy that.  And your definition of what is a relationship in Penny's mind, I would argue, is exactly why Amy and Bernie should have put her straight in 6.2.  As soon as she said that she felt in love before I would have adopted a Sheldon approach and thrown up my hands and given her a snort of derision   After season 4, they should have been no-nonsense with that rather than staying basically neutral.  As for the pre-wedding jitters as you describe, you would have thought that after NOT freaking out to the point of ending their relationship after the proposal (as she would have done in the past) you would think that she would not even consider breaking up because she was happy but bored.  But, given that I agree with you that she was in contemplative mode and, as I insist, still immature at that point, I guess I can see 6.2 being somewhat plausible.  Thanks for your explanation, it cleared it up rather nicely for me.

I take some issue with the claim of Penny being "bored" in the relationship. She says it is a different kind of love than she is used to. "A new, better, boring kind of love." I take this to mean a more mature type of love. Not "have mad, monkey sex every night and knock-down, drag out fights in between kind of love." A more supportive, adult relationship; just being comfortable together. Just my humble interpretation of the scene.

[phantagrae]

Oh, please, it's not like Leonard was abused at home.  No one called child protective services about it.

 

All that happens is that he gets outed for the game he was playing.  His mother isn't going to destroy him.  In many ways it's not much different than when Penny called Sheldon's mother in Panty Pinata.

He was hoisted by his own petard, I think, but Penny didn't betray him.

[Chiara]

What is "the circle of trust"?

The opposite of "the square of suspicion" ?

 

 

 

I do apologise for being so profoundly immature. But I swear it was funny in my head.