Spoilers Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread

[Occam's Chainsaw]

Actually you don't really get a lot of crying period, at least on camera. Presumably there are quite a few emotionally touching moments that have happened off-screen that will never be directly referenced because they lack in comedic potential.

[3ku11]

Actually you don't really get a lot of crying period, at least on camera. Presumably there are quite a few emotionally touching moments that have happened off-screen that will never be directly referenced because they lack in comedic potential.

And that's what set's BBT apart from even HIMYM and MF, it never compromises it's comedic integrity, that is why when their are touching moments it is executed so well because your not used to it, well that's the way I see it anyway.

[JonRS92]

And that's what set's BBT apart from even HIMYM and MF, it never compromises it's comedic integrity, that is why when their are touching moments it is executed so well because your not used to it, well that's the way I see it anyway.

 

I've been re-watching the series with a friend of mine to try and get her interested in the program so I have someone I can talk about the show with in person, and I guess the comedic integrity is so strong that I have to constantly explain the more serious and emotional moments to her because she thinks everything is supposed to be funny.

[Carlos]

Penny going to Beverly is betrayal, because Penny and Leonard are a couple and the problems of the couple should be handled "in house". Penny and Sheldon's incident is completely different because they are NOT a couple, so there is no implicit betrayal from Penny's part going "outside" to take care of it

Edited September 20, 2013 by Carlos

[Carlos]

Would a way to tick everyone off be to say, to heck with Lenny and Shamy, Leonard and Amy should be a couple!?

 

So besides the Lenny and the Shamy, we might have the Lamy? Ohhhh myyyyy!!!!!!! 

[Tensor]

I prefer the Any

[Chrismo]

Penny going to Beverly is betrayal, because Penny and Leonard are a couple and the problems of the couple should be handled "in house". Penny and Sheldon's incident is completely different because they are NOT a couple, so there is no implicit betrayal from Penny's part going "outside" to take care of it

Did Leonard stay "in house" when he used his mother's book to get sex?  Leonard gave Penny's Sheldon's mother phone number to end the dispute. He really didn't do it to help Penny.

[JonRS92]

Penny going to Beverly is betrayal, because Penny and Leonard are a couple and the problems of the couple should be handled "in house". Penny and Sheldon's incident is completely different because they are NOT a couple, so there is no implicit betrayal from Penny's part going "outside" to take care of it

 

I think going to his mother here is being looked at too critically.  It seems like going to the mother is a theme permeating throughout the seasons.  Not only has Penny done it before with Leonard while they were a couple, but Bernie did it to Howard over the space trip, Leonard has gone to Sheldon's mother twice I think outside of when he gave her number to Penny.  I believe the two incidents were when Sheldon got fired and when he ended his friendship with Amy.  So couple or no couple, going to the mother seems to be a thing.

 

I prefer the Any

 

Oh, heck yes!   Or at the risk of getting a little too over the top...Lany

 

Did Leonard stay "in house" when he used his mother's book to get sex?  Leonard gave Penny's Sheldon's mother phone number to end the dispute. He really didn't do it to help Penny.

 

If Leonard did not give Penny the number to help her why did he do it?  He could have just as easily helped Sheldon win or just stayed out of it in which case Sheldon probably wins as well.  I saw it as his taking Penny's side over Sheldon's.

[Chrismo]

 

 

 

If Leonard did not give Penny the number to help her why did he do it?  He could have just as easily helped Sheldon win or just stayed out of it in which case Sheldon probably wins as well.  I saw it as his taking Penny's side over Sheldon's.

Leonard's knows Penny and Leonard are both stubborn. The fight would have kept going. Penny tried to compromise but it didn't work. As leonard said at the time and I'm paraphrasing it will go on for years. Leonard knew Sheldon's mother would end the dispute quickly. He really wasn't taking sides.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Chrismo

[Carlos]

Leonard gave Penny's Sheldon's mother phone number to end the dispute. He really didn't do it to help Penny.

 

I beg to differ. To me it appears that he gave Penny Sheldon's mother phone number to help her end the dispute with Sheldon in her favor.

 Leonard has gone to Sheldon's mother twice I think outside of when he gave her number to Penny.  I believe the two incidents were when Sheldon got fired and when he ended his friendship with Amy.  So couple or no couple, going to the mother seems to be a thing.

 

This is precisely where Ii think you are wrong. Leonard didn't go to Sheldon's mother to solve a dispute between Sheldon and him, but to actually help Sheldon, so it is completely different, AND Sheldon and Leonard are not a couple, and therefore not a unit to which all outside influences should be foreign.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Carlos

[JonRS92]

Leonard's knows Penny and Leonard are both stubborn. The fight would have kept going. Penny tried to compromise but it didn't work. As leonard said at the time and I'm paraphrasing it will go on for years. Leonard knew Sheldon's mother would end the dispute quickly. He really wasn't taking sides.

 

Right, he used that World War II line.  I am sure that he wanted the fight to end quickly to see both of them happy again (or what passes for happy for Sheldon ).  Now I may be getting a little too analytical here, but did Leonard actually see Penny try and compromise?  I think he walked in at the end when Penny was back to being junior rodeo on.  Maybe he chose to help Peny because he thought she would the less stubborn of the two, but I like to think he chose to Penny over Sheldon because he liked her.  But who knows?

[Chrismo]

I beg to differ. To me it appears that he gave Penny Sheldon's mother phone number to help her end the dospute with Sheldon in her favor.

The thing is though it never should have been a dispute to begin with. Sheldon and his nutty rules were the problem. What benefit did Penny get or what did Sheldon really lose? This should have been a non event to begin with.

[JonRS92]

This is precisely where Ii think you are wrong. Leonard didn't go to Sheldon's mother to solve a dispute between Sheldon and him, but to actually help Sheldon, so it is completely different, AND Sheldon and Leonard are not a couple, and therefore not a unit to which all outside influences should be foreign.

 

I think you might be misinterpreting my point.  My point was not to get into the "why" the mothers were brought in, but that the act of bringing in the mothers is something that the show has always done and as a result I think trying to look at 7.4 as some kind of betrayal might be taking it a bit too far.

[Chrismo]

Right, he used that World War II line.  I am sure that he wanted the fight to end quickly to see both of them happy again (or what passes for happy for Sheldon ).  Now I may be getting a little too analytical here, but did Leonard actually see Penny try and compromise?  I think he walked in at the end when Penny was back to being junior rodeo on.  Maybe he chose to help Peny because he thought she would the less stubborn of the two, but I like to think he chose to Penny over Sheldon because he liked her.  But who knows?

He saw them talking in L/S apartment but you may be correct. You are a romantic but I'm not sure in this case that was Leonard's reasoning.

[JonRS92]

He saw them talking in L/S apartment but you may be correct. You are a romantic but I'm not sure in this case that was Leonard's reasoning.

 

Maybe not   But like I said to Carlos' post, I just think bringing in mothers is something the show has done and will probably continue to do.  Maybe 7.4 was a bad choice for how the writers chose to handle this one, but I don't think it the writers meant for it to mean much.

[Chrismo]

Maybe not   But like I said to Carlos' post, I just think bringing in mothers is something the show has done and will probably continue to do.  Maybe 7.4 was a bad choice for how the writers chose to handle this one, but I don't think it the writers meant for it to mean much.

Actually I reread the taping report on 7.4 since it was on one page and easier for me to read.(low comprehension). I don't think it was that bad an idea (since the show is a comedy and I'm sure when it is finally viewed it will look funnier) and I will tell you why. Howard trying for pity from Bernadette because of his mother. While Leonard's pity act fooled Penny (at least temporarily) there was no way Howard was fooling Bernadette Bernadette didn't fall for it and  was mad. Then Howard compounds his stupidity by telling her he got the idea from Leonard. Do you think she was going to keep this quiet? Bernadette who makes Penny look "laid back" tells Penny whats going on and if I had to guess probably not in a calm fashion. So IMO opinion what you ended up getting from a PO'ed Penny is contacting Leonard's mother and plotting a plan to get even. Howard sort of got off the hook because Bernadette didn't get tricked into anything.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Chrismo

[JonRS92]

Actually I reread the taping report on 7.4 since it was on one page and easier for me to read.(low comprehension). I don't think it was that bad an idea (since the show is a comedy and I'm sure when it is finally viewed it will look funnier) and I will tell you why. Howard trying for pity from Bernadette because of his mother. While Leonard's pity act fooled Penny (at least temporarily) there was no way Howard was fooling Bernadette Bernadette didn't fall for it and  was mad. Then Howard compounds his stupidity by telling her he got the idea from Leonard. Do you think she was going to keep this quiet? Bernadette who makes Penny look "laid back" tells Penny whats going on and if I had to guess probably not in a calm fashion. So IMO opinion what you ended up getting from a PO'ed Penny is contacting Leonard's mother and plotting a plan to get even. Howard sort of got off the hook because Bernadette didn't get tricked into anything.

 

I completely agree.  From everything I have read in the taping reports I think this whole thing is for laughs.

[Occam's Chainsaw]

I don't think the parallel can really be made with Penny calling Sheldon's mom for a few reasons; Sheldon and Penny were not in any kind of relationship, she did it to end open warfare resulting from Sheldon's insane rules, and everyone but Sheldon knew that Sheldon was in the wrong. It has much more in common with when Bernadette went to Howard's mother, she had a problem with something her partner was doing and instead of dealing with it maturely she went behind his back to get his mother to browbeat him into submission.

 

I personally don't like Beverly and what is in the taping report doesn't help that opinion. I really hope that at some point someone delivers a well deserved "The Reason You Suck" speech to her.

[ArmyGirl]

I don't think the parallel can really be made with Penny calling Sheldon's mom for a few reasons; Sheldon and Penny were not in any kind of relationship, she did it to end open warfare resulting from Sheldon's insane rules, and everyone but Sheldon knew that Sheldon was in the wrong. It has much more in common with when Bernadette went to Howard's mother, she had a problem with something her partner was doing and instead of dealing with it maturely she went behind his back to get his mother to browbeat him into submission.

 

I personally don't like Beverly and what is in the taping report doesn't help that opinion. I really hope that at some point someone delivers a well deserved "The Reason You Suck" speech to her.

 

Penny and Amy told Bernie she was wrong for getting Howard's mother involved and she had to make it right.

 

It's nice to see I'm not the only who dislike Leonard's mother and hope one day Leonard gets to call her out. 

[Chrismo]

I don't think the parallel can really be made with Penny calling Sheldon's mom for a few reasons; Sheldon and Penny were not in any kind of relationship, she did it to end open warfare resulting from Sheldon's insane rules, and everyone but Sheldon knew that Sheldon was in the wrong. It has much more in common with when Bernadette went to Howard's mother, she had a problem with something her partner was doing and instead of dealing with it maturely she went behind his back to get his mother to browbeat him into submission.

 

I personally don't like Beverly and what is in the taping report doesn't help that opinion. I really hope that at some point someone delivers a well deserved "The Reason You Suck" speech to her.

I agree there is no parallel and i don't like Beverly either. Though I can't really tell what she did from the taping report. Was it mature that Leonard used his mother for "pity sex"?

 

In regards to Bernadette and Howard's mother Howard had done nothing wrong. That can't be said for Leonard.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Chrismo

[Nogravitasatall]

I think you might be misinterpreting my point. My point was not to get into the "why" the mothers were brought in, but that the act of bringing in the mothers is something that the show has always done and as a result I think trying to look at 7.4 as some kind of betrayal might be taking it a bit too far.

Generally Penny and Leonard are redoing their relationship over again. There are cases where they run the same scenario to different outcomes. The VD ep demonstrates this, where Penny has a meltdown but they don't end the scene with her shutting the door on Leonard, instead they moved forward. Part of my disappointment is that, while they reached a new equilibrium, and Leonard will have learned that he should buy her say a fishing pole and take her camping to get more nookie, instead of being lamely manipulative, they reiterated the "mother of all bombs" strategy. As you note this is in keeping with the style of the show and "mummy issues" are highly relatable and often funny. But to me it's entirely the wrong domain for that gag. These guys are trying to journey from their delayed adolescence to some kind of maturity; they want to cut their apron strings. Mum in the bedroom? That was "Everyone loves Raymond" territory. He never overcame his mummy issues. And the nature of the deeper emotional bonds they are playing with here, between Penny and Leonard and then Leonard and Beverly are particularly crucial.

That said, another part of Leonard's growth will be to move out of any teenage rebellion phase and normalise relationships with his mum. This is contentious to me because there is some question in my mind as to whether trying that would be insane. Beverly is what she is. But then, Sheldon is now looking for love, and who would of thought that in S2. Maybe they can.

And the other part of my affront is that Penny gave Leonard, off her own bat, the same treatment that Leonard taught her to use on Sheldon. So Leonard was doubly hoist. She treated him the same as she treated Sheldon AND he gave her the tool that she used on him, to belt him in the groin, so to speak.

(This is nothing they won't get over, Leonard has been belted there before).

Oh, and it was unfair, because he has no ability to fight off his mother. That's why he avoids her. It's a brute force solution that was brutal.

...

(Eta; and Jon, this is just a little bit of over thinking. I am at least not trying to assign meaning to the colours of the crockery . And since 2008 I have watched Leonard get it in the groin so, heavily invested, me)

Edited September 20, 2013 by Nogravitasatall

[JonRS92]

Generally Penny and Leonard are redoing their relationship over again. There are cases where they run the same scenario to different outcomes. The VD ep demonstrates this, where Penny has a meltdown but they don't end the scene with her shutting the door on Leonard, instead they moved forward. Part of my disappointment is that, while they reached a new equilibrium, and Leonard will have learned that he should buy her say a fishing pole and take her camping to get more nookie, instead of being lamely manipulative, they reiterated the "mother of all bombs" strategy. As you note this is in keeping with the style of the show and "mummy issues" are highly relatable and often funny. But to me it's entirely the wrong domain for that gag. These guys are trying to journey from their delayed adolescence to some kind of maturity; they want to cut their apron strings. Mum in the bedroom? That was "Everyone loves Raymond" territory. He never overcame his mummy issues. And the nature of the deeper emotional bonds they are playing with here, between Penny and Leonard and then Leonard and Beverly are particularly crucial.

 

Personally, I agree with you here.  This is something I would like to see from both of them.  In 7.4 it seems like both of them regress a little bit, but maybe that is to be expected.  Also, is it possible that as fans who happen to be deeply invested in this relationship, that we may be taking their relationship progress way more seriously than the writers are?

 

That said, another part of Leonard's growth will be to move out of any teenage rebellion phase and normalise relationships with his mum. This is contentious to me because there is some question in my mind as to whether trying that would be insane. Beverly is what she is. But then, Sheldon is now looking for love, and who would of thought that in S2. Maybe they can.

 

I think it would be insane.  I get where he might want to do this, but I think the best thing for him to do is just sever that relationship entirely.  Beverly is not a mother, she is the lead scientist monitoring her experiment.  Leonard is not her son, he is her project.  Sheldon is at least young enough to try and break away from that, and I would argue that for all of Sheldon's admiration for Beverly, he's not as much like her as either would like to think.  For one thing, Sheldon has emotions that he is not as afraid to let out where as with Beverly, she needs to get drunk.  I also think that Beverly is too old and set in her ways to ever change and be any kind of mother to Leonard.  If Penny really wants to help him here, she should lead Leonard to that conclusion rather than sicking her on him during a spat.  Maybe a future story can be Penny's father becoming the surrogate parent for Leonard.  Who better to help him learn to appreciate the things that Penny likes than her own father?

 

And the other part of my affront is that Penny gave Leonard, off her own bat, the same treatment that Leonard taught her to use on Sheldon. So Leonard was doubly hoist. She treated him the same as she treated Sheldon AND he gave her the tool that she used on him, to belt him in the groin, so to speak.

(This is nothing they won't get over, Leonard has been belted there before).

Oh, and it was unfair, because he has no ability to fight off his mother. That's why he avoids her. It's a brute force solution that was brutal.

...

(Eta; and Jon, this is just a little bit of over thinking. I am at least not trying to assign meaning to the colours of the crockery . And since 2008 I have watched Leonard get it in the groin so, heavily invested, me)

Agreed on all points.  Penny messed up, but they'll get over it.

[3ku11]

I think were overexagerating things a tad here, I see no suggestion from the TR or the writers that they are messing with Lenny or are going to throw them under the bus. Nor have I ever though the writers have ever messed with Lenny. In S2 Penny just wasen't ready for even the idea of a relationship with Leonard so she kept her options open haha as Leonard put it a few times, Leonard in a way reinforced Penny's insecurities that she is not smart enough for Leonard, partly Sheldon's fault when Leonard tried to get Penny to develop her education. As S2 progressed Leonard dated Stephanie, but the thing with Leonard and Penny's other relationships they come and go, but as Penny is an constant part of his life, the idea of a relationship with her never wavered. By the finalie of S2 when the guys were planning to go on the expedition, Penny started to come to terms of how much she would miss Leonard. That's the thing I have always felt at times Penny has taken Leonard for granted, and moments like this Priya, then Alex have reminded her of how great Leonard is, and the irony is I think it is the Science in Leonard's life that attracted Penny to Leonard in the first place which was emphasised in the Science Lab scene in S6, yes Penny has always been anti-geek, but even go back to 3x01 when Leonard gave Penny that snowflake, that is another example, and also in S3 Penny wanted to know more about Leonard's work, so she has always shown an interest, and compared to the dumb gym hunks she used to date, Leonard represents the guy who she deserves even though she feels she doesen't at times.

 

I feel too deep down due to her insecurities and intimacy issues, and the fact she has given guys trust so many times, that a guy as great as Leonard is not someone she feel's she deserves. And then again in S3 when they broke up, I never felt the writers through Lenny under the bus, although I think it was Lorres idea to break them up, I just think in terms from a writers standpoint, Leonard had a lot of growing to do, as at that point Leonard had really been dating Penny since the begginning where as Penny was just getting used to the idea of dating a guy like Leonard a guy she is not used to dating, she just wasen't ready and had to do what was right for her but also what was right Leonard. I think the writers have always treated Lenny as a work in progress, so everything that has happened even now has never been a surprise to me.

 

And even now it is very different from last year, last season Leonard still wasen't sure if Penny loves him, and Penny was confused about her feelings and not sure if she wanted to be with Leonard anymore, remember this was shortly after 5x24 when Leonard proposed prematurly in bed, but later on Penny's attitude changed after the Science Lab scene and then Alex renforced her insecurities, that's always been the thing with Leonard and Penny, Penny has been the desirable one, Leonard has always been the one with the insecurities but then someone comes along who possess's someone else other then good looks, education, commonlarities e.t.c. And although Leonard was completely oblivious to her advances, it made Penny realize how much Leonard means to her, as she could be with any guy right now but she choose Leonard. Just like Leonard could be with a women who has more in common with, but sometimes thing's cannot be explained, in a indiffrent way Leonard and Penny are perfect for each other, and compliment each other.

 

As for the TR I think for the first time in Leonard's life he is in a relationship where he is not being needy, he is not being submissive, it is requitted love, the same could also be said for Penny, it is new ground for her to be with a guy that love's her deeply, but actually treats her like a Queen, because of this Penny is learning to trust Leonard alot more then she did in S3. So it is new for Leonard so maybe subconciousley he monopoilsed the situation to gain sex, because he is testing the waters lol he's a guy, and sure Penny shoulden't of confided in Beverley, they need to validate their new found maturity in their relationship, and deal with stuff like this as a couple. But remember from a writers POV and a comedy value POV, this is not the first time the writers have teamed up Penny and Beverley, or with Bernadette and Amy, it's almost like the sister code in a way. And don't forgot also that Beverley regardless of how horrible she can be with Leonard, is probably going to be her mother-in law one day so they need to be on good terms. Yes Penny messed up but her and Leonard are in new waters right now, they have never been in such a good place, so I feel Leonard could leave the tap on in Penny's apartment and come back and find the whole apartment over flowing lol, and they will still work through things, difference is now they are now working on their relationship. So to me this well just force them to keep working on their relationship, as it is not perfect and nor should it be.

Edited September 21, 2013 by 3ku11

[JonRS92]

I think were overexagerating things a tad here, I see no suggestion from the TR or the writers that they are messing with Lenny or are going to throw them under the bus. Nor have I ever though the writers have ever messed with Lenny. In S2 Penny just wasen't ready for even the idea of a relationship with Leonard so she kept her options open haha as Leonard put it a few times, Leonard in a way reinforced Penny's insecurities that she is not smart enough for Leonard, partly Sheldon's fault when Leonard tried to get Penny to develop her education. As S2 progressed Leonard dated Stephanie, but the thing with Leonard and Penny's other relationships they come and go, but as Penny is an constant part of his life, the idea of a relationship with her never wavered. By the finalie of S2 when the guys were planning to go on the expedition, Penny started to come to terms of how much she would miss Leonard. That's the thing I have always felt at times Penny has taken Leonard for granted, and moments like this Priya, then Alex have reminded her of how great Leonard is, and the irony is I think it is the Science in Leonard's life that attracted Penny to Leonard in the first place which was emphasised in the Science Lab scene in S6, yes Penny has always been anti-geek, but even go back to 3x01 when Leonard gave Penny that snowflake, that is another example, and also in S3 Penny wanted to know more about Leonard's work, so she has always shown an interest, and compared to the dumb gym hunks she used to date, Leonard represents the guy who she deserves even though she feels she doesen't at times.

 

I feel too deep down due to her insecurities and intimacy issues, and the fact she has given guys trust so many times, that a guy as great as Leonard is not someone she deserves. And then again in S3 when they broke up, I never felt the writers through Lenny under the bus, although I think it was Lorres idea to break them up, I just think in terms from a writers standpoint, Leonard had a lot of growing to do, as at that point Leonard had really been dating Penny since the begginning where as Penny was just getting used to the idea of dating a guy like Leonard a guy she is not used to dating, she just wasen't ready and had to what was right for her but also what was right Leonard. I think the writers have always treated Lenny as a work in progress, so everything that has happened even now has never been a surprise to me.

 

And even now it is very different from last year, last season Leonard still wasen't sure if Penny loves him, and Penny was confused about her feelings and not sure if she wanted to be with Leonard anymore, remember this was shortly after 5x24 when Leonard proposed prematurly in bed, but later on Penny's attitude changed after the Science Lab scene and then Alex renforced her insecurities, that's always been the thing with Leonard and Penny, Penny has been the desirable one, Leonard has always been the one with the insecurities but then someone comes along who possess's someone else other then good looks, education, commonlarities e.t.c. And although Leonard was completely oblivious to her advances, it made Penny realize how much Leonard means to her, as she could be with any guy right now but she choose Leonard. Just like Leonard could be with a women who has more in common with, but sometimes thing's cannot be explained, in a indiffrent way Leonard and Penny are perfect for each other, and compliment each other.

 

As for the TR I think for the first time in Leonard's life he is in a relationship where he is not being needy, he is not being submissive, it is requitted love, the same could also be said for Penny, it is new ground for her to be with a guy that love's her deeply, but actually treats her like a Queen, because of this Penny is learning to trust Leonard alot more then she did in S3. So it is new for Leonard so maybe subconciousley he monopoilsed the situation to gain sex, because he is testing the waters lol he's a guy, and sure Penny shoulden't of confided in Beverley, they need to validate their new found maturity in their relationship, and deal with stuff like this as a couple. But remember from a writers POV and a comedy value POV, this is not the first time the writers have teamed up Penny and Beverley, or with Bernadette and Amy, it's almost like the sister code in a way. And don't forgot also that Beverley regardless of how horrible she can be with Leonard, is probably going to be her mother-in law one day so they need to be on good terms. Yes Penny messed up but her and Leonard are in new waters right now, they have never been in such a good place, so I feel Leonard could leave the tap on in Penny's apartment and come back and find the whole apartment over flowing lol, and they will still work through things, difference is now they are now working on their relationship. So to me this well just force them to keep working on their relationship, as it is not perfect and nor should it be.

 

As I have said, I agree and think we are waaaay over-thinking this.  I think what we should be doing is enjoying the laughs secure in the knowledge that unless the writers hate us Lenny will be okay.

[Guest]

As I have said, I agree and think we are waaaay over-thinking this.  I think what we should be doing is enjoying the laughs secure in the knowledge that unless the writers hate us Lenny will be okay.

 

You are totally right.