Spoilers Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread

[vasu]

I think the main objection in retrospect about the Season 3 breakup is the way it was handled. Penny didn't need to dump him in front of his friends. There is no reason they couldn't have met privately and Penny telling Leonard that he's getting too serious and they need to cool things down.

 

I thought it was fine the way they handled the break up..

 

but what was bad was what happened in season 3 finale... Penny basically leads him on (the reason she broke up with Leonard)...and does not show any sympathy towards Leonard later.....she just shoves him away when leonard comes to her next night......which I thought was cruel and bitchy.....

[3ku11]

I thought it was fine the way they handled the break up..

 

but what was bad was what happened in season 3 finale... Penny basically leads him on (the reason she broke up with Leonard)...and does not show any sympathy towards Leonard later.....she just shoves him away when leonard comes to her next night......which I thought was cruel and bitchy.....

Are we talking about the double standard episode? Haha yeah well to be fair Penny was legit drunk and was seeking comfort from Leonard, where as Leonard got drunk on purpose just to proove a point lol. And I completley disagree Penny led Leonard on, that is the whole reason why she broke up with him, their was a possiblity she could lead him on, and she diddn't want that to happen.

[JonRS92]

I think your missing some points here they diddn't work through those issues in S3 as they were different people then, Penny was almost settling for Leonard then. And the make up of their relationship could be explained through their relationships with their parents, Leonard was submissive and push/resist with Penny, and Penny hulked out all the time because of their respective mum and dad. And you ask as characters did they grow? They did Leonard did grow from being with Priya it gave him more confidence, and made him more assertive which Penny was looking for, it made Penny stop taking Leonard for granted, and by the point in the 100th ep when Leonard asked Penny out, like Chiara said Leonard realized Penny had changed. I guess your asking if their is any physical proof Leonard and Penny grew, I think it was really subtle and grew over time. I think you need to re watch S5 and possibly S6 Penny changed alot, like I said it was subtle she is trusting and compromising with Leonard a lot more ,opposed to her hulking out behaviour of S3. I don't think she needed to validate she had changed, I think it was obvious based on her dating, she diddn't date any guy at all in S5 up to Leonard, that was a huge change for me. I think Penny and Leonard have learnt from their past relationship mistakes, and are now working on their relationship that is the biggest change to me.

I don't see where Penny was settling in season 3. If you wanted to argue that all their relationship was in season 3 was sex then I could buy that. Given the set up of the first 2 seasons I don't buy that she was settling. I could also buy the argument that Penny was mistakenly treating her relationship with Leonard just like all her others which was a mistake. If that was the case then I would ask what the point of the season 2 finale and 3 premiere was. What I think you can say is that both were immature in those early seasons. As for season 5 and 6 I do see the changes. I see them on both of them. I also think I you can see exactly when and why those changes came about and I don't think any of them are from the incidents of season 3 and 4. Can you point to one incident with Priya that shows Leonard changed at all or gained any confidence? I say Penny and Leonard changed within seasons 5 and 6 not before. I didn't see any Leonard assertiveness prior to season 5. I think regret from Penny is all that came from those seasons 3 and 4. Well regret and she did kind of straighten herself out after Raj. Also, Penny was still taking Leonard for granted into season 6. Priya changed none of that. Amy and Bernie had more to do with Penny's change as I think you mentioned. Leonard's came just from understanding Penny. Edited September 25, 2013 by JonRS92

[3ku11]

I don't see where Penny was settling in season 3. If you wanted to argue that all their relationship was in season 3 was sex then I could buy that. Given the set up of the first 2 seasons I don't buy that she was settling. I could also buy the argument that Penny was mistakenly treating her relationship with Leonard just like all her others which was a mistake. If that was the case then I would ask what the point of the season 2 finale and 3 premiere was. What I think you can say is that both were immature in those early seasons.

As for season 5 and 6 I do see the changes. I see them on both of them. I also think I you can see exactly when and why those changes came about and I don't think any of them are from the incidents of season 3 and 4. Can you point to one incident with Priya that shows Leonard changed at all or gained any confidence? I say Penny and Leonard changed within seasons 5 and 6 not before. I didn't see any Leonard assertiveness prior to season 5. I think regret from Penny is all that came from those seasons 3 and 4. Also, Penny was still taking Leonard for granted into season 6. Priya changed none of that. Amy and Bernie had more to do with Penny's change as I think you mentioned. Leonard's came just from understanding Penny.

I never said Priya changed Leonard, I said as a result of their relationship later on in S5 and S6 their were changes, exactly my point by S5 you saw a more assertive Leonard. Actually I Think it was Alex was the one who changed Penny, she started stopping taking Leonard for granted right their, and you saw some insecurities coming to the surface. So while your right about S5 and S6 in terms of changes, my point is these changes started to happen through Leonard and Priya's relationship made Penny realize what a great guy Leonard is. So although the change diddn't occur till later on, my point is S3 and S4 were all factors that contributed. 

[vasu]

Are we talking about the double standard episode? Haha yeah well to be fair Penny was legit drunk and was seeking comfort from Leonard, where as Leonard got drunk on purpose just to proove a point lol. And I completley disagree Penny led Leonard on, that is the whole reason why she broke up with him, their was a possiblity she could lead him on, and she diddn't want that to happen.

 

Penny had to know she led him on(not knowingly of course) in the next morning when Leonard basically tells her that he thought they were getting back together and that's all Penny knew... which when we see from Penny's point of view should be a betrayel because she broke up with to not lead him again....and again the next night when Leonard shows up on her door drunk... shoving him away the way she did was terrible...I'm not saying she should have had sex with him...but atleast a tiny bit of concern would have been fine...  she was completely sober and she should have clearly understood what had happened and whose fault it was....

[JonRS92]

I never said Priya changed Leonard, I said as a result of their relationship later on in S5 and S6 their were changes, exactly my point by S5 you saw a more assertive Leonard. Actually I Think it was Alex was the one who changed Penny, she started stopping taking Leonard for granted right their, and you saw some insecurities coming to the surface. So while your right about S5 and S6 in terms of changes, my point is these changes started to happen through Leonard and Priya's relationship made Penny realize what a great guy Leonard is. So although the change diddn't occur till later on, my point is S3 and S4 were all factors that contributed.

But why did it take Priya to show her that? Shoukdnt their friendship and relationship have done that long before Priya? Penny seemed to realize it as early as season 1. I don't mean to disrespect your opinion here but I just can't make the connections back that far. To me the assertiveness in Leonard came from the date that was not a date in season 5. If you've noticed him being assertive to any girls prior to that please let me know and I'll apologize.

[Nogravitasatall]

HEY, ARE YOU IMPLYING SOMETHING TENSOR, OR INFERRING!

I always get those meanings mixed up. Not too fussed about what Penny was doing with her bits, though btw.

[3ku11]

But why did it take Priya to show her that? Shouldnt their friendship and relationship have done that long before Priya? Penny seemed to realize it as early as season 1. I don't mean to disrespect your opinion here but I just can't make the connections back that far. To me the assertiveness in Leonard came from the date that was not a date in season 5. If you've noticed him being assertive to any girls prior to that please let me know and I'll apologize.

He was assertive with Penny a few times in S1, he stormed in her apartment and accused of being hypocritical not in so many words but that was the tone of the blast, this was after she broke up DU after finding out he was married. Leonard is a nerd so it is perceived that he is submissive in his behaviour, this is partly due the relationship with his Mother, she was so cold and distant, so as a consequence he is constantly searching for approval from women, this was the main problem with Lenny in S3. You forget though Penny has been a work in progress, the reason why it took Priya and then to a lesser extent Alex to stop her taking Leonard for granted, is partly due to her insecurities and trust issues, she had been burnt by guys and had her trust broken so many times, you could argue she was scared of committing to Leonard or completely trusting Leonard, Leonard was different to the other guys she dated, apart from the fact he is her neighbour and Friend in S1, Leonard actually cared for her. I think Priya did work on Leonard though, like changing his clothes to change his image. So the big change in Leonard is he is no longer submissive or looking for approval with Penny hence pushing/resist, and Penny is no longer hulking out, but as you said this change occured by S5, for the reasons I just went over.

Penny had to know she led him on(not knowingly of course) in the next morning when Leonard basically tells her that he thought they were getting back together and that's all Penny knew... which when we see from Penny's point of view should be a betrayel because she broke up with to not lead him again....and again the next night when Leonard shows up on her door drunk... shoving him away the way she did was terrible...I'm not saying she should have had sex with him...but atleast a tiny bit of concern would have been fine...  she was completely sober and she should have clearly understood what had happened and whose fault it was....

True to be fair though remember Leonard slept with that women who was giving funds to the university, and Leonard slept with the "slut bunny" right after they broke up, so Penny is not the only one at fault here, Leonard made as many mistakes maybe more arguably after they broke up, so they both screwed up.

Edited September 25, 2013 by 3ku11

[Tensor]

HEY, ARE YOU IMPLYING SOMETHING TENSOR, OR INFERRING!

I always get those meanings mixed up.

Actaully, I was doing both. I implied she was having sex, because I inferred she was dating.

 

Not too fussed about what Penny was doing with her bits, though btw.

Of course not, you're Australian, you're a slut. Of course, I'm an American and think pretty much the same as you do. Which, over here makes me an even worse slut.

[SRAM]

Well at least we get a little Leonard and Lenny cuteness in yesterday's taping report. There is suppose to be a scene of them sitting on the couch watching TV wrapped in a blanket together and they seem to just to be acting like boyfriend and girlfriend. As a matter of fact, Shamy and Howdette seem to be fighting and Lenny just watches and offers advice without getting into the conflict. Nothing to not like on the Lenny front in this episode it seems.

[terriblewaitress]

Well at least we get a little Leonard and Lenny cuteness in yesterday's taping report. There is suppose to be a scene of them sitting on the couch watching TV wrapped in a blanket together and they seem to just to be acting like boyfriend and girlfriend. As a matter of fact, Shamy and Howdette seem to be fighting and Lenny just watches and offers advice without getting into the conflict. Nothing to not like on the Lenny front in this episode it seems.

 

Yup, I thought that was absolutely adorable! Just that one little thing, them cuddling on the couch with a blanket, was so cute. 

[3ku11]

Yup, I thought that was absolutely adorable! Just that one little thing, them cuddling on the couch with a blanket, was so cute. 

Love the irony that after all Leonard and Penny have been through they are the one's lying the couch watching a movie in a stable relationship, while laughing at their friends issues in their relationships haha.

[JonRS92]

He was assertive with Penny a few times in S1, he stormed in her apartment and accused of being hypocritical not in so many words but that was the tone of the blast, this was after she broke up DU after finding out he was married. Leonard is a nerd so it is perceived that he is submissive in his behaviour, this is partly due the relationship with his Mother, she was so cold and distant, so as a consequence he is constantly searching for approval from women, this was the main problem with Lenny in S3. You forget though Penny has been a work in progress, the reason why it took Priya and then to a lesser extent Alex to stop her taking Leonard for granted, is partly due to her insecurities and trust issues, she had been burnt by guys and had her trust broken so many times, you could argue she was scared of committing to Leonard or completely trusting Leonard, Leonard was different to the other guys she dated, apart from the fact he is her neighbour and Friend in S1, Leonard actually cared for her. I think Priya did work on Leonard though, like changing his clothes to change his image. So the big change in Leonard is he is no longer submissive or looking for approval with Penny hence pushing/resist, and Penny is no longer hulking out, but as you said this change occured by S5, for the reasons I just went over.

I see your point about Penny being a work in progress and can accept that. However I still say that Leonard did not change due to his relationship with Priya. He was still submissive to her and he still pushed her. Now maybe something happened when they broke up but there just isn't enough evidence. Leonard seems to have changed from the friends night with Penny when she told him what she liked and then later after the ILY. The submissiveness lessened after the non-date to be fully realized in the V-day episode and the pushiness lessened after the ILY.

Love the irony that after all Leonard and Penny have been through they are the one's lying the couch watching a movie in a stable relationship, while laughing at their friends issues in their relationships haha.

They've come so far and it is awesome to see.

[Chiara]

I see your point about Penny being a work in progress and can accept that. However I still say that Leonard did not change due to his relationship with Priya. He was still submissive to her and he still pushed her. Now maybe something happened when they broke up but there just isn't enough evidence. Leonard seems to have changed from the friends night with Penny when she told him what she liked and then later after the ILY. The submissiveness lessened after the non-date to be fully realized in the V-day episode and the pushiness lessened after the ILY.

"Submissiveness" is such a strong word. Maybe "masochism" would be more appropriate.

No matter what he does, Leonard always ends up around difficult people. We can see that as either a weakness or a partiality. I would be tempted to go for the latter for I believe he, ultimately, likes a good challenge. He enjoys tough, slightly unattainable, alpha-type people : Sheldon, Leslie, Priya, Penny, etc. That, to me, is a show of strength on his part. He likes harsh personalities for, deep down, he is every bit as strong willed and minded as them, just in a different way.

 

His main "power" (if he were a superhero) is resilience for he never gives up and does whatever it takes to achieve his aim : he chose to live with Sheldon (after having seen the writing on the wall... Literally) so he does everything he can to make it go well; he chose Penny as the future mother of his children (after seeing her across the hall and understanding she was not one of his peers), so he gives the relationship his whole; etc.

He goes for the toughest of the tough missions and never crumbles. That is pretty impressive. In a way, it is reminiscent of Edison's quote : "Genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration". Leonard has the spark of inspiration ("I will live with Sheldon", "I will have children with Penny") after which he is not afraid to put in the hours to make it happen. 

 

So I do not think he became more assertive as the show has gone on. In my opinion, he has always been perfectly able to put his foot down when need be (The Bath Item Gift Hypothesis and The Staircase Implementation being prime examples). 

 

What has changed is the way in which the people around him react to his shows of strength. Penny has definitely developed the ability to handle Leonard's emotions and behave accordingly (instead of hiding behind tears and/or anger) while, to a much lesser degree, Sheldon has managed to evolve enough to give his friend more room to exist. They cracked. And Leonard was all over it like white on rice !

 

And now for something different : Yeah ! Penny and Leonard cuddling under a blanket. We have come a long way baby ! There is something moving and ironic about these two giving relationship advice. In the kingdom of the blind...

[Chrismo]

It seems all the worry of the last episode was for not. S/A and H/B are having their problems. A bit of irony there.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Chrismo

[JonRS92]

"Submissiveness" is such a strong word. Maybe "masochism" would be more appropriate.

No matter what he does, Leonard always ends up around difficult people. We can see that as either a weakness or a partiality. I would be tempted to go for the latter for I believe he, ultimately, likes a good challenge. He enjoys tough, slightly unattainable, alpha-type people : Sheldon, Leslie, Priya, Penny, etc. That, to me, is a show of strength on his part. He likes harsh personalities for, deep down, he is every bit as strong willed and minded as them, just in a different way.

His main "power" (if he were a superhero) is resilience for he never gives up and does whatever it takes to achieve his aim : he chose to live with Sheldon (after having seen the writing on the wall... Literally) so he does everything he can to make it go well; he chose Penny as the future mother of his children (after seeing her across the hall and understanding she was not one of his peers), so he gives the relationship his whole; etc.

He goes for the toughest of the tough missions and never crumbles. That is pretty impressive. In a way, it is reminiscent of Edison's quote : "Genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration". Leonard has the spark of inspiration ("I will live with Sheldon", "I will have children with Penny") after which he is not afraid to put in the hours to make it happen.

So I do not think he became more assertive as the show has gone on. In my opinion, he has always been perfectly able to put his foot down when need be (The Bath Item Gift Hypothesis and The Staircase Implementation being prime examples).

What has changed is the way in which the people around him react to his shows of strength. Penny has definitely developed the ability to handle Leonard's emotions and behave accordingly (instead of hiding behind tears and/or anger) while, to a much lesser degree, Sheldon has managed to evolve enough to give his friend more room to exist. They cracked. And Leonard was all over it like white on rice !

And now for something different : Yeah ! Penny and Leonard cuddling under a blanket. We have come a long way baby ! There is something moving and ironic about these two giving relationship advice. In the kingdom of the blind...

I like your hypothesis here. Very interesting and plausible idea. You can really make the argument that Leonard really hasn't changed much at all it is everyone around him who did.

[Chiara]

It seems all the worry of the last episode was for not. S/A and H/B are having their problems. A bit of irony there.

It ain't November yet. Drama needs time to brew. Dum dum dumm...

 

All kidding aside, I believe there will be a payoff to 7.03 and 7.04 (like there was payoff last year for The Date Night Variable and The Decoupling Fluctuation : the pressure built up and built up until we got The Holographic Excitation and, above all, The 43 Peculiarity). It may get a little tense but, all in all, everything will be alright. 

 

@ JonRS92 First, thank you. Secondly, I do think Leonard has changed a bit (he is more prompt to express his feelings now) but, indeed, not nearly as much as the people around him. It makes sense considering that, when the show started, he was already pretty OK and well-adjusted. If he changes some more (and in a more visible way), it may be this year or the next. The show is approaching the end of act two (if it runs for 10-11 years) and that would be the right time for the hero to get a little makeover. It would not have to be anything too drastic ; just him gaining the new skills, experiences and knowledge necessary to succeed in his quest. At long last. 

[Tensor]

There is one thing Leonard started doing when dating Priya, he started looking at the women he was talking to, instead of down and didn't fumble his words. Normal conversation that is, he was perfectly capable of having trouble speaking when he was embarrassed or unsure (best example is when he mentions that Penny didn't tell him about her movie, and Priya asks if he's been talking to her) That indicate more confidence, and dating Priya helped that. After all, they talked about going into the relationship, before doing it, something new to Leonard. Penny and Stephanie basically took him to bed to start the relationship. Yes, Priya and Leonard had sex before beginning the relationship, but just didn't fall into the relationship after sex. When it started, it was more talk about it, then have sex.

[SRAM]

Last nights taping reminds me of last seasons episode about the parking space, because Leonard and Penny are doing fine, just watching their friends problems and trying to help. I don't mind them not being the main characters in the episode when the writers give us a little scene like them both on the couch, under a blanket cuddling and watching TV. Hear that writers, cute little scenes like that will keep us happy, when you are not writing scenes about then. Oh, dibs on that avatar.

[JonRS92]

@ JonRS92 First, thank you. Secondly, I do think Leonard has changed a bit (he is more prompt to express his feelings now) but, indeed, not nearly as much as the people around him. It makes sense considering that, when the show started, he was already pretty OK and well-adjusted. If he changes some more (and in a more visible way), it may be this year or the next. The show is approaching the end of act two (if it runs for 10-11 years) and that would be the right time for the hero to get a little makeover. It would not have to be anything too drastic ; just him gaining the new skills, experiences and knowledge necessary to succeed in his quest. At long last.

I think this what I was originally fumbling around when I was talking about not seeing the big changes some were saying happened post-Priya. You may not totally agree but you conveyed a similar idea better than I did. Like you said I think his assertiveness was always there but he was quick to back down when Penny turned in the tears. That's not happening much now primarily because Penny is talking more about what she wants from him and not flying off the handle as much.

There is one thing Leonard started doing when dating Priya, he started looking at the women he was talking to, instead of down and didn't fumble his words. Normal conversation that is, he was perfectly capable of having trouble speaking when he was embarrassed or unsure (best example is when he mentions that Penny didn't tell him about her movie, and Priya asks if he's been talking to her) That indicate more confidence, and dating Priya helped that. After all, they talked about going into the relationship, before doing it, something new to Leonard. Penny and Stephanie basically took him to bed to start the relationship. Yes, Priya and Leonard had sex before beginning the relationship, but just didn't fall into the relationship after sex. When it started, it was more talk about it, then have sex.

Okay I get that. Good example.

[Occam's Chainsaw]

Love the irony that after all Leonard and Penny have been through they are the one's lying the couch watching a movie in a stable relationship, while laughing at their friends issues in their relationships haha.

It actually makes some sense, Penny and Leonard have their problems (all couples do), but they deal with those problems and then move on. Sure they had a problem 7x04 but they fixed it and it's in the past. The Shamy have a whole backlog of dysfunctions that never get dealt with and every once in a while Sheldon goes to far and it creates real problems. Bernie and Howard really don't let go of their problems, sure they deal with the immediate issue, but they don't address the underlying issue very well, and most of their conflict resolution seems to rely on avoidance.

[Chrismo]

It actually makes some sense, Penny and Leonard have their problems (all couples do), but they deal with those problems and then move on. Sure they had a problem 7x04 but they fixed it and it's in the past. The Shamy have a whole backlog of dysfunctions that never get dealt with and every once in a while Sheldon goes to far and it creates real problems. Bernie and Howard really don't let go of their problems, sure they deal with the immediate issue, but they don't address the underlying issue very well, and most of their conflict resolution seems to rely on avoidance.

I agree. It appears that Shamy fans are in euphoria and I don't understand why. In regards to H/B they don't seem to address their conflicts.

[JonRS92]

I agree. It appears that Shamy fans are in euphoria and I don't understand why. In regards to H/B they don't seem to address their conflicts.

Could that be because Shamy has been set up as probably the best match either is ever going to get. I know they had Amy date Stuart but I doubt that would have gone far. There doesn't seem to be any lingering threat to Shamy while Lenny fans are used to having the threat of Penny remembering that she's Penny and can get whoever she wants. That threat has diminished in season 6 but it is kind of still there in the background so Lenny fans cling to even the smallest hints of bliss. With Shamy, while I am a fan, I always think well what option do they have besides each other? Add the fact that Sheldon rarely expresses genuine feeling and that he's never been one to flaunt Amy around like she would do with him. That is not meant to diminish that they are good for each other. Edited September 25, 2013 by JonRS92

[bigbangsheldon]

LP cuddling will be cute.

[Chrismo]

Could that be because Shamy has been set up as probably the best match either is ever going to get. I know they had Amy date Stuart but I doubt that would have gone far. There doesn't seem to be any lingering threat to Shamy while Lenny fans are used to having the threat of Penny remembering that she's Penny and can get whoever she wants. That threat has diminished in season 6 but it is kind of still there in the background so Lenny fans cling to even the smallest hints of bliss. With Shamy, while I am a fan, I always think well what option do they have besides each other? Add the fact that Sheldon rarely expresses genuine feeling and that he's never been one to flaunt Amy around like she would do with him. That is not meant to diminish that they are good for each other.

While I agree with your best match  assessment of the Shamy this episode didn't end well for them. I think Amy will eventually lose it with him and there could be  possibly a temporary break up. Amy and Sheldon have gone years earlier with no SO. The Lenny always conflicting is starting to get old. In regards to Penny it may be true about her getting anyone (though chances have diminished) Leonard seems the one to attract the ladies (Alex for example).