Spoilers Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread

[Zhalen565]

Yeah true my bad haha guess most seasons are 24 episodes, but your right should of checked facts.

Damn! I think I'm turning into Sheldon, getting very finicky about details.

[Tensor]

Yeah true my bad haha guess most seasons are 24 episodes, but your right should of checked facts.

Season 1            17

Season 2 and 3  23

Season 4-7         24

[Chiara]

based on what her father has said she has dated a lot of loosers, most likely due to Penny's trust in people, which is one of her strengths, but at the same time it is one of her biggest flaws, she always gave trust to these guys who never earn't it in the first place, and ultimately mistreated her. 

I may be in a minority here but I do not think the guys Penny dated were solely responsible for the crappy quality of the relationships.

 

While I acknowledge the summary I previously wrote of Penny's past daliances made it look like she was being taken advantage of unilaterally, I think it is slightly more subtil than that for it seems to me that the cheesecake-scented godess also got what she wanted from those relationships. Namely drama.

 

Penny has been shown to love making a scene. She is an actress through and through (and a good one at that) in that regard. The blood pumping, the fury rising, the yelling increasing, the passion peaking, etc. She knows how to do it and enjoys it tremendously. This natural inclination of hers for excess and adrenaline even led her to qualify her couple with Leonard of "boring" (as in "boring kind of love") because it did not rely on screaming matches and fights to survive. 

So while the long series of idiots and halfwits she dated prior to Leonard certainly did benefit from their association with her (they got money, sex and pictures), the other way around was also true : they gave her what she craved at the time, i.e. excitement. 

 

Did Penny truly trust these guys ? And did her feelings really get hurt when they proved to be the braindead buffoons everyone knew they were ? Well...

 

Also, if Penny's past boyfriends were jerks I think it pretty safe to assume that they did not reciprocate her feelings and just used her for her looks and for sex.

 I believe she used them for the exact same reasons, plus drama. If we look back, there is very little evidence that deep emotions were ever involved in her past relationships. I would not go so far as to say she did not care but I do not have the feeling her love was ever really on the table. 

 

The way in which she reacted to seeing her ex in The Tangible Affection Proof was rather telling : she was not sad, mournful or devastated; instead she was angry and frustrated. Strange reaction if we accept the Penny-delivered premise that she used to love this man... The same logic applies to her relationship with Kurt. Their breakup left Penny crushed, allegedly. Yet, in The Fuzzy Boots Corollary, she was seen kissing another man in the hallway. So, three weeks (or let's say a month) after the end of a four-year relationship, "heartbroken" Penny was enjoying some love-y time with another dude, without a care in the world...

 

My guess is that she did not love either Kurt or the restaurant guy. Not any more than they did her. And that, I believe, is true of all the men Penny dated before Leonard. So in this regard, and while I absolutely accept and argue that she has been burnt by the way her previous boyfriends treated her, there was complete and perfect reciprocation of feelings (or lack thereof). What Penny would resent (and get hurt by) was therefore the discrepancy not in affection but in respect. Her exes bruised her ego by making her feel like a fool (lying, promising to give back money and not doing it, cheating).

However they did not damage her heart because it was never really at stakes. 

 

Conversely, with Leonard, she is all in, so to speak. Heart, pride, etc. The whole bloody lot. She is completely vulnerable. Her displays of affection are not just ways to be nice, friendly, fun, sexy or polite (like they were with the other guys). They are proofs of love. So were Dr. Hofstadter to behave like her previous boyfriends and not reciprocate those... Danger Will Robinson !

 

I know some of you say that Penny hates romance.  I say I think that is changing.  Giving Penny a locket was romantic and she loved it.  Coming home early to see her was romantic and she loved it.  I know I probably worded this whole section poorly so before I get yelled at, please forgive me.  It's been a long day and I am tired

 You are perfectly coherent, I assure you

 

Penny does not like romance for romance's sake. Valentine's Day makes her puke, love-y dove-y talks put her to sleep, hearts and flowers turn her homicidal, Disney princesses bore her into a coma, etc. With the previous guys, she has been there, done that and reached the conclusion it is all horse faeces (she may be right, by the way). However, she is very sensistive to offbeat, unintentional romantic gestures : preserved snowflakes, chemistry kits, scientific talks and the likes. 

Even the locket is a bit odd. While it definitely is the most traditionally romantic present she has responded positively to so far, it is still just out-of-left-field enough to seduce her. It is so cliché it is almost goofy (I say that with all the tenderness in the world). And it was on clearance. That she likes. 

 

Wrt the future:

I keep thinking "pendulum". But my weary heart doesn't really want to know. LOL. I just hope he becomes momentarily only a bit over confident, not a complete drop kick for an extended period.

Last season, Penny came as close as possible to utter disaster when she decided she wanted to dump Leonard yet she managed to pull through and give a glorious performance for the rest of year. I have no doubt Leonard will do the same this time.

He will probably get cocky and so secure he will start taking Penny's love for granted, until something hits him in the head (possibly a rolling pin). He will get knocked down for a while. Then proceed to get back up, dust himself off and make amends. He is a resilient homunculus. He will manage

[hamerman55]

Leonard actually has a couple of things to be annoyed about with his girlfriend and his roommate. Four months away from Sheldon and Penny has probably made him fully aware of how one-sided those relationships are, and the extent to which these issies are now problems. Sheldon acted like a jealous girlfriend, and wasn't happy until he not only ruined his time alone with Penny, but also made him spend what sounded like a truly awful day catering to Sheldon. Oen could tell just how over it Leonard was.

I'm sure four months with people that had normal situations with their signifcant others also reminded him how emotionally constipated Penny is. Yes, she's physically affectionate, but have we seen anything actually change? If Penny is all in, then what about living together? What about a proposal? I say Leonard has very good reasons to be a little distant. Penny hasn't backed down one inch from the major problems that exist in their relationship. Leonard is all in, but Penny really is not. Until she brings up, on her own, Leonard moving in, she is not all in. Until she proposes, she is not all in. The smart move for Leonard at this point is to guard his heart, because Penny has actually given him nothing since finally saying I love you. The relationship is better, but basically stalled.

They haven't really addressed why she is scared of marriage, or of Leonard moving in. If you are looking for a sweeps issue, one of these will do quite nicely. All Leonard has to say if Penny tries to bring him up short about pretty damn near anything he might do is what about moving in, or getting married? i repeat, he's all in, and she is not.

Sheldon is also a huge problem here too. As I pointed out earlier, he acted like a jilted girlfriend. Even Amy was annoyed at him about this. Recall that Penny's go to excuse against Leonard moving in was concern about Sheldon. I do not understand why he couldn't do any of those extremely boring things that delight him so much with his girlfriend. And let his roommate be with his girlfriend. This is likely deeply annoying to Leonard. As we have discussed at great length this summer, Sheldon is an impediment to Leonard moving on. He is highly dependent on him, yet belittles him professionally at every turn. Another thing that could be the source of plenty of conflict all the way around is for Leonard to be granted tenure. It would trigger a whole sequence of events. Sheldon would become intolerable to live with and Leonard would need at this point to move out. He would clearly have the money to do so, and should. Penny will then have to deal with Leonard leaving Sheldon and not being across the hall. This is inevitable.

Edited September 30, 2013 by hamerman55

[3ku11]

Leonard actually has a couple of things to be annoyed about with his girlfriend and his roommate. Four months away from Sheldon and Penny has probably made him fully aware of how one-sided those relationships are, and the extent to which these issies are now problems. Sheldon acted like a jealous girlfriend, and wasn't happy until he not only ruined his time alone with Penny, but also made him spend what sounded like a truly awful day catering to Sheldon. Oen could tell just how over it Leonard was.

I'm sure four months with people that had normal situations with their signifcant others also reminded him how emotionally constipated Penny is. Yes, she's physically affectionate, but have we seen anything actually change? If Penny is all in, then what about living together? What about a proposal? I say Leonard has very good reasons to be a little distant. Penny hasn't backed down one inch from the major problems that exist in their relationship. Leonard is all in, but Penny really is not. Until she brings up, on her own, Leonard moving in, she is not all in. Until she proposes, she is not all in. The smart move for Leonard at this point is to guard his heart, because Penny has actually given him nothing since finally saying I love you. The relationship is better, but basically stalled.

They haven't really addressed why she is scared of marriage, or of Leonard moving in. If you are looking for a sweeps issue, one of these will do quite nicely. All Leonard has to say if Penny tries to bring him up short about pretty damn near anything he might do is what about moving in, or getting married? i repeat, he's all in, and she is not.

Sheldon is also a huge problem here too. As I pointed out earlier, he acted like a jilted girlfriend. Even Amy was annoyed at him about this. Recall that Penny's go to excuse against Leonard moving in was concern about Sheldon. I do not understand why he couldn't do any of those extremely boring things that delight him so much with his girlfriend. And let his roommate be with his girlfriend. This is likely deeply annoying to Leonard. As we have discussed at great length this summer, Sheldon is an impediment to Leonard moving on. He is highly dependent on him, yet belittles him professionally at every turn. Another thing that could be the source of plenty of conflict all the way around is for Leonard to be granted tenure. It would trigger a whole sequence of events. Sheldon would become intolerable to live with and Leonard would need at this point to move out. He would clearly have the money to do so, and should. Penny will then have to deal with Leonard leaving Sheldon and not being across the hall. This is inevitable.

I think she has done a lot since the ILY, she has already prooven she want's to be with Leonard, she hasen't seen Leonard in four months what else is she susposed to do? And I disagree that Penny is emotionaly constipated in what way? Is this based on Penny not committing to Leonard in the past? Why would she, their was no obligation when they meet, that she had to commit to Leonard, she's young and wasen't ready no big deal. And I don't think anyone or anything in the show up till now has suggested Leonard is distant, he came back early just to spend time with Penny, yes Sheldon is an issue but he has been since the pilot, not seeing how it is any different now. Your forgetting the fact Leonard gave Penny the power when it comes to proposal, Penny has always had intimacy issues and insecurties, I mean it took her six years to tell Leonard she loves him, this does not make her a bad person just meant she was catching up, she never dated guys like Leonard most likely because she was scared of emotional intimacy. I mean Leonard has been crazy about her since they met, it has taken a lot of evolvement and maturity on Penny's part to get to the point they are now in their relationship. All I am saying is I think your asking to much, TBBT is not a show about huge moment's and cliffhangers, its not a rom com, they are probably going to drag it out. Penny and Leonard are happy right now, but go back to the Spoiler Alet Segmentation, when Leonard wanted to move in with Penny if this was 3 seasons ago, Penny would of freaked out but she was willing to compromise her intimacy issues to make Leonard happy even though she wasen't ready to move in with Leonard, and it lasted two days. But your right Sheldon ruined things, to be fair tho Amy got involved where she shoulden't these were living arangements between Leonard, and Penny, and possibly Sheldon. You say Penny hasen't backed down from her major issues in their relationship, did you miss Season 6 lol? The Valentines Day ep they talked honestly about their issues, and her fear's of marrage, hence Leonard giving Penny the power. I disagree that Penny is not all in if she doesen't propose, Lenny has been a work in progress, Don't expect a proposal anytime soon, Leonard and Penny are in a good place and most of Season 6 Penny prooved she is all in, it may not be obvious big moments like the ILY, but stuff like letting Leonard go away for four months and telling him she loves him is proof enough for me that she is committed to Leonard.

[hamerman55]

I'm more responding to other's comments basically claiming that Leonard is being distant, and I wanted to defend him. I think he's doing fine. Alot of the comments have claimed that Leonard was not affectionate enough in the second episode and are anticipating soem sort of comeuppance formhim in the near future.

Yes, there was a lot of progress in Season 6, but compared to normal relationships, not so much. Leonard has just spent four months away from his daily life, and probably seen people that are not in the sort of crazy triangle he's in. My take on the arrangement in "The Tangible Affection Proof" is mixed. It was a great breakthrough in the relationship, and removed a source of tension, but it didn't address the basic problem. Penny's fear is that if Leonard keeps asking her to marry him, eventually she will say yes, and be trapped. This might not be an exact quote, but it is pretty close, I believe. Is this not a problem that begs to be resolved? It sound like she does not want to marry Leonard. Now I know that she doesn't want to break up, and she's fully in love with him, but consider the actual problem raised in this agreement. Penny is afraid she will say yes. Leonard agrees not to ask her anymore. Until Penny budges, Leonard either waits patiently, or breaks up. He isn't allowed to push. Penny is apparently as committed to homeostasis as Sheldon is.

In a sense, Penny rejected Leonard in "The Tangible Affection Proof" and "The Spoiler Alert Segmentation". To sum these two episodes up, No Leonard, you can't move in with me, and no Leonard, I won't marry you, and you can't ask me again. Penny was willing to let Leonard live with her rather than face telling him no, but she was quick to dodge the question when Sheldon used her to duck avoid the same thing with Amy. Recall that Sheldon finally can't stand the idea of Amy moving in, and tell her she can't. When she blows up, his excuse is that Penny doesn't want Leonard to move in with her. Amy calls Penny out on this, Leonard asks if this is true, and Penny's only response is that he didn't ask her and just assumed. She then storms away with Amy so they can talk about what jerks their boyfriends are. But who is really at fault here? Sure, Leonard, who must step around everyone elses' feelings, should have seen this as a major escalation of their relationship that requires a great deal of agony and discussion, but recall he stormed out of his apartment at the end of a fight where he was right, again, but Sheldon would not see it. Further, this is a culmination of a lot of frustration, I'm sure.

When Leonard suggests that he stay with Penny. she says nothing, but tries to use Sheldon, the source of Leonard's anger, as an excuse to keep him from moving in. Why would she expect that to work? Further, what she should have done is bring up the real point, which was that she regarded Leonard moving in as a major escalation of their relationship, and they needed to talk about it. She does not do this. She neatly sideslips this issue later, blaming Leonard for not reading her mind. Emotional constipation. She'll let him stay rather than talk about her issues with him moving in, but leap on any excuse to throw him out, which she basically did.

In "The Tangible Affection Proof", we get no explanation as to why she is afraid of saying yes, just that she is very happy that Leonard agreed not to ask her any more.

I suppose this is just consistency in Penny, as she has been the mistress of the mixed message to Leonard since the first season. Further, this show like relationships moving at glacial paces. The turtle race now is whether Sheldon will kiss Amy before Leonard and Penny take the next step in their relationship.

I do want to point out that am very happy with where things are generally, and Season 6 was a delight to me as a I'm a huge fan of Leonard and Penny. However, I do want to defend what we've seen of Leonard so far, and what we anticipate due to the spoiler reports. Recently it seems that Leonard is being put down for not seeming as ardent as expected, and will be put down hard by Penny after basically being emotionally abused by the textbook his mother wrote. Penny Skyping his mother into the bedroom, if that actually plays out, is pretty awful in my book, and is way out of line. If this plays out that way, again Penny does not directly confront Leonard on something that bothers her, but hides behind some one else. Apparently, Penny does not like aleonard having any power in their relationship.

[Nogravitasatall]

Apropos Sheldon I had this idea that every relationship that involves Sheldon is a love triangle. The third and perpetually injured party is Sheldon's love for Sheldon.

 

And with regard to Penny and her issues - I'm going to let it run. She was pretty good in the first two eps.  I have to see the other eps  then judge, because I was so adamant about the wrongness of mummy in the bedroom sight unseen that it can't be that bad, because I am never that right. And Leonard is ardent enough,  he is just no longer desperate like a drowning person clutching things. The spoiler indicates he is trying to get things to run more his way and that is fair. However, I can't help but be pessimistic about the poor beggar's chances of uninterrupted happiness, because this is TBBT and I have that syndrome of enjoying the scary roller-coaster (not wallowing in drama at all).

[3ku11]

I'm more responding to other's comments basically claiming that Leonard is being distant, and I wanted to defend him. I think he's doing fine. Alot of the comments have claimed that Leonard was not affectionate enough in the second episode and are anticipating soem sort of comeuppance formhim in the near future.

Yes, there was a lot of progress in Season 6, but compared to normal relationships, not so much. Leonard has just spent four months away from his daily life, and probably seen people that are not in the sort of crazy triangle he's in. My take on the arrangement in "The Tangible Affection Proof" is mixed. It was a great breakthrough in the relationship, and removed a source of tension, but it didn't address the basic problem. Penny's fear is that if Leonard keeps asking her to marry him, eventually she will say yes, and be trapped. This might not be an exact quote, but it is pretty close, I believe. Is this not a problem that begs to be resolved? It sound like she does not want to marry Leonard. Now I know that she doesn't want to break up, and she's fully in love with him, but consider the actual problem raised in this agreement. Penny is afraid she will say yes. Leonard agrees not to ask her anymore. Until Penny budges, Leonard either waits patiently, or breaks up. He isn't allowed to push. Penny is apparently as committed to homeostasis as Sheldon is.

In a sense, Penny rejected Leonard in "The Tangible Affection Proof" and "The Spoiler Alert Segmentation". To sum these two episodes up, No Leonard, you can't move in with me, and no Leonard, I won't marry you, and you can't ask me again. Penny was willing to let Leonard live with her rather than face telling him no, but she was quick to dodge the question when Sheldon used her to duck avoid the same thing with Amy. Recall that Sheldon finally can't stand the idea of Amy moving in, and tell her she can't. When she blows up, his excuse is that Penny doesn't want Leonard to move in with her. Amy calls Penny out on this, Leonard asks if this is true, and Penny's only response is that he didn't ask her and just assumed. She then storms away with Amy so they can talk about what jerks their boyfriends are. But who is really at fault here? Sure, Leonard, who must step around everyone elses' feelings, should have seen this as a major escalation of their relationship that requires a great deal of agony and discussion, but recall he stormed out of his apartment at the end of a fight where he was right, again, but Sheldon would not see it. Further, this is a culmination of a lot of frustration, I'm sure.

When Leonard suggests that he stay with Penny. she says nothing, but tries to use Sheldon, the source of Leonard's anger, as an excuse to keep him from moving in. Why would she expect that to work? Further, what she should have done is bring up the real point, which was that she regarded Leonard moving in as a major escalation of their relationship, and they needed to talk about it. She does not do this. She neatly sideslips this issue later, blaming Leonard for not reading her mind. Emotional constipation. She'll let him stay rather than talk about her issues with him moving in, but leap on any excuse to throw him out, which she basically did.

In "The Tangible Affection Proof", we get no explanation as to why she is afraid of saying yes, just that she is very happy that Leonard agreed not to ask her any more.

I suppose this is just consistency in Penny, as she has been the mistress of the mixed message to Leonard since the first season. Further, this show like relationships moving at glacial paces. The turtle race now is whether Sheldon will kiss Amy before Leonard and Penny take the next step in their relationship.

I do want to point out that am very happy with where things are generally, and Season 6 was a delight to me as a I'm a huge fan of Leonard and Penny. However, I do want to defend what we've seen of Leonard so far, and what we anticipate due to the spoiler reports. Recently it seems that Leonard is being put down for not seeming as ardent as expected, and will be put down hard by Penny after basically being emotionally abused by the textbook his mother wrote. Penny Skyping his mother into the bedroom, if that actually plays out, is pretty awful in my book, and is way out of line. If this plays out that way, again Penny does not directly confront Leonard on something that bothers her, but hides behind some one else. Apparently, Penny does not like aleonard having any power in their relationship.

Actually I would side with Penny when it comes to the moving in thing, he assumed that Penny was ready after having a fight with Sheldon without actually asking Penny if she was. Penny had every right to think Leonard was a jerk for what he did. It seem's not you but generally a lot of bashing of Penny because of her perceived lack of commitment to their relationship in the past, and Leonard get's treated with care because he is a nerd, and Penny is the horrible person who is not making any attempts to work on their relationship, which is not true. And I think you need to wait till it airs on tv, because most of taping report's are really vague and don't put Penny in a good light, but when you see it on TV it's much better. I think Leonard if he is being distant, bear in mind he only just got back so I don't get where people are getting evidence Leonard is not being ardent or he is being distant, I just don't see it. Because of the expedition he is now more confident, and is actions in the first month of Season 7 maybe a manifestation of his time on the boat, and I think were assuming that the people on the boat were normal, how do you know? Who's to say they weren't as emotionally incomptaible too, after all they are probably nerds like Leonard. Penny has made tremendous progress since Season 6 and right now I see no reason why they should move in together, things are so good right now she probably doesen't want to risk things. So I don't think Penny has a pre-disposition to moving in with Leonard or proposing, nor do I think Sheldon is the major problem, nor do I think she needs to move in with Leonard to validate their relationship, she is just simply not ready. Besides they pratically live together anyway.

[Chiara]

Leonard actually has a couple of things to be annoyed about with his girlfriend and his roommate. Four months away from Sheldon and Penny has probably made him fully aware of how one-sided those relationships are, and the extent to which these issies are now problems. Sheldon acted like a jealous girlfriend, and wasn't happy until he not only ruined his time alone with Penny, but also made him spend what sounded like a truly awful day catering to Sheldon. Oen could tell just how over it Leonard was.

I understand the frustration caused by Sheldon's intervention but Leonard is not a prisoner. He could leave the apartment tomorrow and find another place to live, possibly on his own. He is an experimental physicist at CalTech and, even taking into account the crazy economics the show appears to use from time to time, if Amy and Bernadette (before her marriage) can afford their own place, so can he. The only conclusion possible is that he chooses not to move out. Why ? Seemingly because he loves his friend, even when he wants to murder him, and because his girlfriend lives across the hall, which is nicely practical. 

Also because the writers have yet to figure out what to do with Sheldon in the long term but that is meta

 

I'm sure four months with people that had normal situations with their signifcant others also reminded him how emotionally constipated Penny is. Yes, she's physically affectionate, but have we seen anything actually change? If Penny is all in, then what about living together? What about a proposal? I say Leonard has very good reasons to be a little distant. Penny hasn't backed down one inch from the major problems that exist in their relationship. Leonard is all in, but Penny really is not. Until she brings up, on her own, Leonard moving in, she is not all in. Until she proposes, she is not all in. The smart move for Leonard at this point is to guard his heart, because Penny has actually given him nothing since finally saying I love you. The relationship is better, but basically stalled.

I would never dispute the existence of Penny's problems. Nevertheless, she is as committed to the relationship as she will ever be and just as dedicated to its success as Leonard is. Furthermore, she loves Leonard just as much as he loves her. Therefore she is, I believe, all in. 

 

Cohabitation and marriage do not necessarily signify anything in terms of emotional involvement. After all, Penny used to live with Kurt. Does it mean she loved him more than she does Leonard ? TBBT canon does not really allow us to answer yes. Also, she knows people who got hitched in Vegas and are still married (not to the same people though). Were those relationships more meaningful than the one she has with Leonard just because a ring and a piece of paper were involved at some point ? I doubt it. 

 

Now, that is not to say that Penny and Leonard living together and getting married would not be nice. In fact, it would (and will) be absolutely fantastic. However, neither would in any way prove anything in terms of Penny's love for Leonard. Or vice versa, for that matter. 

Leonard and Penny spend most of their free time together, they sleep almost every night in the same bed, they cook together, they talk about their problems and feelings, they are faithful to each other, they support and love each other... For all means and purposes, they are married and living together (Dr Hofstadter pointed one of these things out in The Spoiler Alert Segmentation) . The only thing "missing" is Penny's signature at the bottom of the page. 

 

She fears officiality, that much is painfully self-evident. And the idea of losing control terrifies her. Her speech in The Tangible Affection Proof was evidence of that : she expressed fear at the possibility of finding herself at the altar with no idea of how she got there, after having had no time to stop and think about it. Her daynightmare in The Recombination Hypothesis carried pretty much the same meaning : a shotgun marriage is one people go through because they have to, regardless of their feelings or thoughts on the question. 

While she definitely needs to work through those issues, I find her caution touching in a way. She does not want to mess this relationship up so she, the queen of impulsivity, prefers to wait in order to do everything properly and not act rashly

 

Also, she and Leonard have only been back together for 18 months. Many people do not get married after such a relatively short amount of time; nor do they necessarily move in together (especially if they live 8 feet away from each other to start with and can hear each other's plumbing ). TBBT is now famous for its glacial pace and the Lenny is not exception but, in this case, I do not find it perturbing or odd. They are still within the "average" range. 

 

As for Penny not giving Leonard anything aside from an "I love you", I have to disagree. She has proven to care for his career (attempting to help him with tenure and encouraging him to go on a mission she knew would benefit him), she has declared herself passionate about her life (and his crucial presence in it), she has exposed her insecurities in relation to Alex, she makes efforts to understand and appreciate his culture (watching Buffy and trying to like it; reading comic books), she has shown fascination for his line of work, etc. That goes further that merely saying ILY; it is proving it. 

 

They haven't really addressed why she is scared of marriage, or of Leonard moving in. If you are looking for a sweeps issue, one of these will do quite nicely. All Leonard has to say if Penny tries to bring him up short about pretty damn near anything he might do is what about moving in, or getting married? i repeat, he's all in, and she is not.

"Near anything" may be a bit of an understatement. Refusing to team up with one's girlfriend in a scavenger hunt for fear her lack of knowledge would be too much of a hindrance is not, I believe, "near anything". Neither is lying to her about one's feelings of pain and suffering in order to get satisfaction about where to spend the evening. These are not huge crimes, of course, but they are not "near anything" either.

 

Leonard himself realises that what he does is not great. In 7.03, his immediate impulse is to abandon the hunt, find Penny and apologise for he realises he hurt her feelings by rejecting her. It takes all of Bernadette's cunning to keep him from that course of action. Furthermore, in 7.04, he admits to Howard he is not proud of the way in which he uses Penny's compassion to his advantage.

Had he been sober in The Hofstadter Deficiency, he probably would not have dismissed Penny's phonecall. But he was not so he did. 

Considered individually, those events are not hugely important; however, they happen in close succession, thereby forming a pattern. 

 

I do not think anyone is saying Leonard has turned into some sort of insensitive jerk over the span of four months. He very obviously has not. Poor man, he could not even if he wanted to. He is too naturally kind for that. However, his new found leverage and confidence do cause him to mismanage certain situations; a phenomenon even he can identify. It would therefore not be that strange for the writers to want to address the topic they created at some point in the near future. 

Edited September 30, 2013 by Chiara

[Occam's Chainsaw]

I really feel the need to point this out, when Penny and Sheldon called Leonard he was not only drunk he was also extremely sleep deprived. Seriously it was 5:30 in the morning, and he had apparently been up all night. Also, what the hell were they expecting when they called him at 5:30 in the morning?!?!?!?

[Chrismo]

Leonard actually has a couple of things to be annoyed about with his girlfriend and his roommate. Four months away from Sheldon and Penny has probably made him fully aware of how one-sided those relationships are, and the extent to which these issies are now problems. Sheldon acted like a jealous girlfriend, and wasn't happy until he not only ruined his time alone with Penny, but also made him spend what sounded like a truly awful day catering to Sheldon. Oen could tell just how over it Leonard was.

I'm sure four months with people that had normal situations with their signifcant others also reminded him how emotionally constipated Penny is. Yes, she's physically affectionate, but have we seen anything actually change? If Penny is all in, then what about living together? What about a proposal? I say Leonard has very good reasons to be a little distant. Penny hasn't backed down one inch from the major problems that exist in their relationship. Leonard is all in, but Penny really is not. Until she brings up, on her own, Leonard moving in, she is not all in. Until she proposes, she is not all in. The smart move for Leonard at this point is to guard his heart, because Penny has actually given him nothing since finally saying I love you. The relationship is better, but basically stalled.

They haven't really addressed why she is scared of marriage, or of Leonard moving in. If you are looking for a sweeps issue, one of these will do quite nicely. All Leonard has to say if Penny tries to bring him up short about pretty damn near anything he might do is what about moving in, or getting married? i repeat, he's all in, and she is not.

 

 

 

 

I would never dispute the existence of Penny's problems. Nevertheless, she is as committed to the relationship as she will ever be and just as dedicated to its success as Leonard is. Furthermore, she loves Leonard just as much as he loves her. Therefore she is, I believe, all in. 

 

Cohabitation and marriage do not necessarily signify anything in terms of emotional involvement. After all, Penny used to live with Kurt. Does it mean she loved him more than she does Leonard ? TBBT canon does not really allow us to answer yes. Also, she knows people who got hitched in Vegas and are still married (not to the same people though). Were those relationships more meaningful than the one she has with Leonard just because a ring and a piece of paper were involved at some point ? I doubt it. 

 

Now, that is not to say that Penny and Leonard living together and getting married would not be nice. In fact, it would (and will) be absolutely fantastic. However, neither would in any way prove anything in terms of Penny's love for Leonard. Or vice versa, for that matter. 

Leonard and Penny spend most of their free time together, they sleep almost every night in the same bed, they cook together, they talk about their problems and feelings, they are faithful to each other, they support and love each other... For all means and purposes, they are married and living together (Dr Hofstadter pointed one of these things out in The Spoiler Alert Segmentation) . The only thing "missing" is Penny's signature at the bottom of the page. 

 

She fears officiality, that much is painfully self-evident. And the idea of losing control terrifies her. Her speech in The Tangible Affection Proof was evidence of that : she expressed fear at the possibility of finding herself at the altar with no idea of how she got there, after having had no time to stop and think about it. Her daynightmare in The Recombination Hypothesis carried pretty much the same meaning : a shotgun marriage is one people go through because they have to, regardless of their feelings or thoughts on the question. 

 

As for Penny not giving Leonard anything aside from an "I love you", I have to disagree. She has proven to care for his career (attempting to help him with tenure and encouraging him to go on a mission she knew would benefit him), she has declared herself passionate about her life (and his crucial presence in it), she has exposed her insecurities in relation to Alex, she makes efforts to understand and appreciate his culture (watching Buffy and trying to like it; reading comic books), she has shown fascination for his line of work, etc. That goes further that merely saying ILY; it is proving it. 

 

"Near anything" may be a bit of an understatement. Refusing to team up with one's girlfriend in a scavenger hunt for fear her lack of knowledge would be too much of a hindrance is not, I believe, "near anything". Neither is lying to her about one's feelings of pain and suffering in order to get satisfaction about where to spend the evening. These are not huge crimes, of course, but they are not "near anything" either.

 

Leonard himself realises that what he does is not great. In 7.03, his immediate impulse is to abandon the hunt, find Penny and apologise for he realises he hurt her feelings by rejecting her. It takes all of Bernadette's cunning to keep him from that course of action. Furthermore, in 7.04, he admits to Howard he is not proud of the way in which he uses Penny's compassion to his advantage.

Had he been sober in The Hofstadter Deficiency, he probably would not have dismissed Penny's phonecall. But he was not so he did. 

Considered individually, those events are not hugely important; however, they happen in close succession, thereby forming a pattern. 

 

I do not think anyone is saying Leonard has turned into some sort of insensitive jerk over the span of four months. He very obviously has not. Poor man, he could not even if he wanted to. He is too naturally kind for that. However, his new found leverage and confidence do cause him to mismanage certain situations; a phenomenon even he can identify. It would therefore not be that strange for the writers to want to address the topic they created at some point in the near future. 

 

Have to agree more with @Chiara on this one. In actuality I don't think Leonard is all in. He proposed twice. Once in bed and the other because of Penny's ex proposing. Was their a ring? Him moving in with her was caused by a fight with Sheldon. Even leonard's first ILY was in bed and caused by Penny quoting Star Wars. Why does leonard love Penny? The only two reasons it seems is she's good in bed and she's pretty. The early episodes as @Chiara pointed out with not wanting to team up with Penny in the scavenger hunt and the pity sex . Though realizing he shouldn't of done that in either case he still did it. I agree it's not a bid deal on their own but combined it  is something. Penny being insecure in regards to Alex is telling. If she didn't love Leonard why would she care so much. It was feelings she never expressed before. What does Penny have to offer Leonard that Alex couldn't? Again, Why does Leonard love Penny?

 

[JonRS92]

I may be in a minority here but I do not think the guys Penny dated were solely responsible for the crappy quality of the relationships.

While I acknowledge the summary I previously wrote of Penny's past daliances made it look like she was being taken advantage of unilaterally, I think it is slightly more subtil than that for it seems to me that the cheesecake-scented godess also got what she wanted from those relationships. Namely drama.

Penny has been shown to love making a scene. She is an actress through and through (and a good one at that) in that regard. The blood pumping, the fury rising, the yelling increasing, the passion peaking, etc. She knows how to do it and enjoys it tremendously. This natural inclination of hers for excess and adrenaline even led her to qualify her couple with Leonard of "boring" (as in "boring kind of love") because it did not rely on screaming matches and fights to survive.

So while the long series of idiots and halfwits she dated prior to Leonard certainly did benefit from their association with her (they got money, sex and pictures), the other way around was also true : they gave her what she craved at the time, i.e. excitement.

Did Penny truly trust these guys ? And did her feelings really get hurt when they proved to be the braindead buffoons everyone knew they were ? Well...

I believe she used them for the exact same reasons, plus drama. If we look back, there is very little evidence that deep emotions were ever involved in her past relationships. I would not go so far as to say she did not care but I do not have the feeling her love was ever really on the table.

The way in which she reacted to seeing her ex in The Tangible Affection Proof was rather telling : she was not sad, mournful or devastated; instead she was angry and frustrated. Strange reaction if we accept the Penny-delivered premise that she used to love this man... The same logic applies to her relationship with Kurt. Their breakup left Penny crushed, allegedly. Yet, in The Fuzzy Boots Corollary, she was seen kissing another man in the hallway. So, three weeks (or let's say a month) after the end of a four-year relationship, "heartbroken" Penny was enjoying some love-y time with another dude, without a care in the world...

My guess is that she did not love either Kurt or the restaurant guy. Not any more than they did her. And that, I believe, is true of all the men Penny dated before Leonard. So in this regard, and while I absolutely accept and argue that she has been burnt by the way her previous boyfriends treated her, there was complete and perfect reciprocation of feelings (or lack thereof). What Penny would resent (and get hurt by) was therefore the discrepancy not in affection but in respect. Her exes bruised her ego by making her feel like a fool (lying, promising to give back money and not doing it, cheating).

However they did not damage her heart because it was never really at stakes.

Conversely, with Leonard, she is all in, so to speak. Heart, pride, etc. The whole bloody lot. She is completely vulnerable. Her displays of affection are not just ways to be nice, friendly, fun, sexy or polite (like they were with the other guys). They are proofs of love. So were Dr. Hofstadter to behave like her previous boyfriends and not reciprocate those... Danger Will Robinson !

You are perfectly coherent, I assure you

Penny does not like romance for romance's sake. Valentine's Day makes her puke, love-y dove-y talks put her to sleep, hearts and flowers turn her homicidal, Disney princesses bore her into a coma, etc. With the previous guys, she has been there, done that and reached the conclusion it is all horse faeces (she may be right, by the way). However, she is very sensistive to offbeat, unintentional romantic gestures : preserved snowflakes, chemistry kits, scientific talks and the likes.

Even the locket is a bit odd. While it definitely is the most traditionally romantic present she has responded positively to so far, it is still just out-of-left-field enough to seduce her. It is so cliché it is almost goofy (I say that with all the tenderness in the world). And it was on clearance. That she likes.

Last season, Penny came as close as possible to utter disaster when she decided she wanted to dump Leonard yet she managed to pull through and give a glorious performance for the rest of year. I have no doubt Leonard will do the same this time.

He will probably get cocky and so secure he will start taking Penny's love for granted, until something hits him in the head (possibly a rolling pin). He will get knocked down for a while. Then proceed to get back up, dust himself off and make amends. He is a resilient homunculus. He will manage

I don't necessarily believe that Penny was guilty of anything in her previous relationships except stupidity. She may not have actually been in love on her previous relationships but she thought she was. In my mind Penny fell for the classic mistakes that many popular females do. They date bad people for bad reasons. They do it because it is is socially expected and they may also think they can change these guys to be better people. I know some blame her choices on her father but I am not sure I buy into that. I know a lot of females who hunt, fish, and play sports while staying feminine and dating decent people. In that regard I agree with penny's choices being knowing. She lived the life she wanted to live for superficial reasons. However I do think she expected her boyfriends to treat her better and to show some affection.

I still Penny is becoming more romantic. The Disney princess thing may have not been her first choice of things to do but in the end she was mad because she couldn't be Cinderella.

[3ku11]

I don't think Leonard professed his love for Penny because she is good in bed lol, I mean it is not the first time they have slept together when they were dating in Season 3, if the sex was so good why then why not blurt it out the first time, "I love you!" haha. I never thought Leonard dated Penny because he scored the "hot chick", that was the initial attraction, but that's only because of the social pardaigm, Penny moving in next door as the archtypical hot girl next door, and Leonard and Sheldon her neighbours eggheads. Obviousley Leonard's first impression was she is hot, from the moment they meet he started chasing her, Sheldon made his feelings clear on the subject, that the chances of it occuring are 99% not possible haha, Leonard said something on the lines of why is it so impossible where both humans? Sheldon replied yeah but not the same speicies. So the writers made it clear from the begginning socially Leonard and Penny were from two different worlds'. But that's the show these eggheads who know everything about everything, their world in perfect order, all their atoms in the right place then this gorgeous girl moves in with all her atoms in the right place, and disrupts their entire world partiucaly Leonard, which is the one thing they don't know everything about which is Romance, Love, and Women.

 

For the record I don't think love is requitted based on how much you have in common, or how much money you have, or your level of intelligence. If this was the case you would think Leonard would of loved Priya, or Stephanie, or Joyce Kim Penny is the complete opposite of his Mother, that is what I mean by Penny and Leonard's relationship's with their parents effecting their relationship's in latter life, I am not saying they are at fault, at the end of the day Leonard and Penny are both grown up's and the choices they make are on them. But my point is how their parent's raised them initally had a huge impact on their identities, composite make up, and the choices they make in terms of who they are predominantly attracted too. Beverley was cold and distant as a consequence so was his father, this caused Leonard to develop submissive tendancies, tendancies that later on would manifest into his adult life, and cause him to always seek approval and date women who are strong willed and independent, almost beyond the surface could boss him around, women who have control in their life's hence Stephanie being a Doctor, and Priya being a Lawyer. Compared to his Mother Penny is warm, affectionate, but also has deep seeded flaws and is not perfect in anyway although she may seem perfect on the outside.

 

I remember go back to The Middle Earth Paradigm, at Penny's halloween party, Kurt came by and gave Leonard a hard time, later on Penny came by to apologize for Kurt, and saying how he always does stuff like that. And Penny was like I'm not perfect, and Leonard was like "Yes you are". That told me either Leonard could see the beauty in Penny not just on the outside but also on the inside, something Penny coulden't see because of her insecurities. Penny's relationship with her father has also caused her take a different path in her life hence her acting career, and could argue had an influence on her relationships, in terms of the guy's she used to date, you could argue Leonard is a bit like her father, they seemed to get along lol kiddin. And I agree I do not think all the guy's she dated were soley responsible for her other break up's, they played a big part, but I don't think Penny not wanting to move in with Leonard implies she is not all in, I don't think Leonard has done anything recently to proove he has all in, since the 2nd half of Season 6 Penny has done more of the heavy lifting in their relationship. Like above said she lived with Kurt for four years, did she love him more then Leonard?

 

No she was young and idealistic then, and tended to give trust to these guys who never earnt it, she most likely lived with Kurt for four years, as from I gather she was pretty naive then, and probably thought eventually he would change, but of course he ended up cheating on her a few times. I think that is the thing with Penny she see's the best in people, even people who don't deserve her trust. Leonard was the first guy who actually cared about her, and prooved that time and time again even in the first Season, like I said above, as the season progressed Leonard and Penny developed a friendship, remember in The Peanut Reaction, Leonard revealed he never had a birthday so Penny organsied one for him, that was a another example to me of how much Penny always deep down geniunely cared for Leonard. I''ll say due to her past relationship's Penny has become a pesimist when it comes to romance, she is not the type of girl who like's romance for the sake of it, Valentine's Day being the exception although that was a challenge for both Leonard and Penny, she did eventually ask Leonard to be her valentine. But she doesen't seem to mind it every now and then, in Season 3 Leonard gave her that snow flake and she was touched, and even now in Season 7 Leonard gave her that locket and she is now wearing it.

 

So I think Penny offers Leonard something no women ever has, love and affection, and Leonard offers Penny something no male ever has, the fact he actually cares about her, and no guy she has been with has intellectually challenged her on every level like Leonard. Leonard has always been the nerd who never felt good enough and always seeked approval from women as a consequence of his relationship with his mother, and Penny always felt insecure about herself, so she dated guy's who were pretty much just a reflection in the mirror, dating these guys because of her fear of emotional intimacy. So I think Leonard love's Penny and Penny love's him, because although their differences are skin deep, their sames go straight to the bone .

Edited September 30, 2013 by 3ku11

[JonRS92]

I don't think Leonard professed his love for Penny because she is good in bed lol, I mean it is not the first time they have slept together when they were dating in Season 3, if the sex was so good why then why not blurt it out the first time, "I love you!" haha. I never thought Leonard dated Penny because he scored the "hot chick", that was the initial attraction, but that's only because of the social pardaigm, Penny moving in next door as the archtypical hot girl next door, and Leonard and Sheldon her neighbours eggheads. Obviousley Leonard's first impression was she is hot, from the moment they meet he started chasing her, Sheldon made his feelings clear on the subject, that the chances of it occuring are 99% not possible haha, Leonard said something on the lines of why is it so impossible where both humans? Sheldon replied yeah but not the same speicies. So the writers made it clear from the begginning socially Leonard and Penny were from two different worlds'. But that's the show these eggheads who know everything about everything, their world in perfect order, all their atoms in the right place then this gorgeous girl moves in with all her atoms in the right place, and disrupts their entire world partiucaly Leonard, which is the one thing they don't know everything about which is Romance, Love, and Women.

 

For the record I don't think love is requitted based on how much you have in common, or how much money you have, or your level of intelligence. If this was the case you would think Leonard would of loved Priya, or Stephanie, or Joyce Kim Penny is the complete opposite of his Mother, that is what I mean by Penny and Leonard's relationship's with their parents effecting their relationship's in latter life, I am not saying they are at fault, at the end of the day Leonard and Penny are both grown up's and the choices they make are on them. But my point is how their parent's raised them initally had a huge impact on their identities, composite make up, and the choices they make in terms of who they are predominantly attracted too. Beverley was cold and distant as a consequence so was his father, this caused Leonard to develop submissive tendancies, tendancies that later on would manifest into his adult life, and cause him to always seek approval and date women who are strong willed and independent, almost beyond the surface could boss him around, women who have control in their life's hence Stephanie being a Doctor, and Priya being a Lawyer. Compared to his Mother Penny is warm, affectionate, but also has deep seeded flaws and is not perfect in anyway although she may seem perfect on the outside.

 

I remember go back to The Middle Earth Paradigm, at Penny's halloween party, Kurt came by and gave Leonard a hard time, later on Penny came by to apologize for Kurt, and saying how he always does stuff like that. And Penny was like I'm not perfect, and Leonard was like "Yes you are". That told me either Leonard could see the beauty in Penny not just on the outside but also on the inside, something Penny coulden't see because of her insecurities. Penny's relationship with her father has also caused her take a different path in her life hence her acting career, and could argue had an influence on her relationships, in terms of the guy's she used to date, you could argue Leonard is a bit like her father, they seemed to get along lol kiddin. And I agree I do not think all the guy's she dated were soley responsible for her other break up's, they played a big part, but I don't think Penny not wanting to move in with Leonard implies she is not all in, I don't think Leonard has done anything recently to proove he has all in, since the 2nd half of Season 6 Penny has done more of the heavy lifting in their relationship. Like above said she lived with Kurt for four years, did she love him more then Leonard?

 

No she was young and idealistic then, and tended to give trust to these guys who never earnt it, she most likely lived with Kurt for four years, as from I gather she was pretty naive then, and probably thought eventually he would change, but of course he ended up cheating on her a few times. I think that is the thing with Penny she see's the best in people, even people who don't deserve her trust. Leonard was the first guy who actually cared about her, and prooved that time and time again even in the first Season, like I said above, as the season progressed Leonard and Penny developed a friendship, remember in The Peanut Reaction, Leonard revealed he never had a birthday so Penny organsied one for him, that was a another example to me of how much Penny always deep down geniunely cared for Leonard. I''ll say due to her past relationship's Penny has become a pesimist when it comes to romance, she is not the type of girl who like's romance for the sake of it, Valentine's Day being the exception although that was a challenge for both Leonard and Penny, she did eventually ask Leonard to be her valentine. But she doesen't seem to mind it every now and then, in Season 3 Leonard gave her that snow flake and she was touched, and even now in Season 7 Leonard gave her that locket and she is now wearing it.

 

So I think Penny offers Leonard something no women ever has, love and affection, and Leonard offers Penny something no male ever has, the fact he actually cares about her, and no guy she has been with has intellectually challenged her on every level like Leonard. Leonard has always been the nerd who never felt good enough and always seeked approval from women as a consequence of his relationship with his mother, and Penny always felt insecure about herself, so she dated guy's who were pretty much just a reflection in the mirror, dating these guys because of her fear of emotional intimacy. So I think Leonard love's Penny and Penny love's him, because although their differences are skin deep, their sames go straight to the bone .

 

While I agree with everything you said, I have always wondered why people think Penny's father influenced her choice in men or the types of relationships she has had.  I know that Beverly said that but quite frankly that woman's purely clinical approach to love and relationships makes me hesitate to take what she says at face value.  I know that Penny has is upset that she isn't his slugger anymore, but from what we have actually seen of Penny's father, he seems pretty reasonable, decent, and caring.  He let her live her life even when he knew she was taking dangerous risks and making mistakes.  I firmly believe that Penny's choices in men have more to do with her social standing than with how her father raised her.  She was the hot girl, the cheerleader, her friends (outside of our favorite nerds) are pretty stereotypical as well.  It seems to me that she dated who she dated growing up and into the first couple of seasons because that is the kind of guy that society (more specifically her society) expected her to date.  She dated stereotypical hot, popular guys just like hot popular girls are supposed to.  We know she hasn't been happy with any of them so why did she keep dating them?  Her father?  I don't buy that.  Those guys she dated don't seem anything like him except for maybe an interest in sports.  The only negative thing I have read of Penny's father was that he begged Leonard to keep trying with Penny because he didn't want his daughter and grandchildren growing up in trailer park.  Some seemed to think that shallow but I thought it was pretty normal.  I would imagine one of the first questions any father asks of a guy dating his daughter is "what do you do for a living?" "Can you support my little girl?"  Seems normal that Penny's father would be worried about this.  That Penny wanted her father's approval and love is fine, but her dating the guys she dated, I don't think, had anything to do with that,  I mean he clearly hated all of them for one thing.

 

Now I am not saying that you are saying any of this about her father, but maybe you can shed some light on it and point out what I am missing here.

[3ku11]

While I agree with everything you said, I have always wondered why people think Penny's father influenced her choice in men or the types of relationships she has had.  I know that Beverly said that but quite frankly that woman's purely clinical approach to love and relationships makes me hesitate to take what she says at face value.  I know that Penny has is upset that she isn't his slugger anymore, but from what we have actually seen of Penny's father, he seems pretty reasonable, decent, and caring.  He let her live her life even when he knew she was taking dangerous risks and making mistakes.  I firmly believe that Penny's choices in men have more to do with her social standing than with how her father raised her.  She was the hot girl, the cheerleader, her friends (outside of our favorite nerds) are pretty stereotypical as well.  It seems to me that she dated who she dated growing up and into the first couple of seasons because that is the kind of guy that society (more specifically her society) expected her to date.  She dated stereotypical hot, popular guys just like hot popular girls are supposed to.  We know she hasn't been happy with any of them so why did she keep dating them?  Her father?  I don't buy that.  Those guys she dated don't seem anything like him except for maybe an interest in sports.  The only negative thing I have read of Penny's father was that he begged Leonard to keep trying with Penny because he didn't want his daughter and grandchildren growing up in trailer park.  Some seemed to think that shallow but I thought it was pretty normal.  I would imagine one of the first questions any father asks of a guy dating his daughter is "what do you do for a living?" "Can you support my little girl?"  Seems normal that Penny's father would be worried about this.  That Penny wanted her father's approval and love is fine, but her dating the guys she dated, I don't think, had anything to do with that,  I mean he clearly hated all of them for one thing.

 

Now I am not saying that you are saying any of this about her father, but maybe you can shed some light on it and point out what I am missing here.

Yeah I agree with pretty much what you said, I don't think Penny's father is a bad guy at all, I really liked him he seem's to really care for Penny and really liked Leonard, mostly because of the fact most of the guy's Penny dated over the years were complete loosers lol well according to her father anyway. And good point Penny most likely dated popular good looking guys because of her social make up, she was the cheerleader and the popular girl, I mean she even admitted to bullying in high school, Penny clearly now getting older is repenting and regretting most of the stuff she did when she was younger, but that just make's her human. She dated guy's based on the friend's she had and her peers, up till meeting the guy's she dated guy's based on what was socially expected of her, the same way Leonard dated women who were similar to him, because it was expected oh him from society.

 

Another reason why Leonard and Penny are perfect for each other, they are better when they are with each other. My point about their parent's is that their initial respective upbringing of Leonard and Penny had an influence on their identity and their social makeup later in life, just like Beverley who was cold and distant manifested it self later into Leonard's adult life, hence why he could be so submissive at time's, and always was seeking the approval of women and dated women who were closer tho his mother strong willed, independent women like Stephanie and Priya both dominant type women who are very succesfull in their choosen feild. Remember Stephanie decided to put some of her clothes in Leonard's room. Leonard though has always shown confidence to me, he has always put challenges in front of him, even challenges that seemed out of his reach like Penny, to me Leonard hasen't changed all that much everyone around him has.

 

And with Penny's father always refering to Penny as his "little slugger", she may of moved away to become an actress, the same way she got addicted online gaming, to escape reality. Although I think we can all agree Beverley is not a nice person, you can hardly compare her to Evelyn in Taahm, she at least has prooven she cares and loves her sons yet hold them in no regard, yet on the other hand Beverley shows no regard at all for Leonard, and tbh other then that hug in S3 has shown no love or approval for Leonard. Tbh it's amazing Leonard is such a great guy, the way he was raised he really had to fend for himself. I also think Penny's father maybe always wanted a boy, and Penny to be a bit more sporty then girly. So while their parent's ultimately don't have any impact on their relationship's as adults, Penny and Leonard are both grown up's that's on them, they definately had some kind of influence earlier in life.

Edited October 1, 2013 by 3ku11

[wuster]

 

On a side note, is it just me or is there some sort of trend in TBBT couples in re. eyesight ?  It seems there might be an unofficial rule of thumb on the show about this kind of things : characters without glasses can only be in relationships with their bespectacled couterparts. Leonard and Penny, Amy and Sheldon, Bernadette and Howard... 

Furthermore, it appears that the poorly sighted ones are always the "responsible" ones in their couples; they tend to lead the charge and cajole their S.O.s into deeper and more mature forms of commitment. It is almost comical in a way : a case of the literally (somewhat) "blind" leading the figuratively (romantically) "blind"

That makes me worried for Lucy's future on the show. Unless we find out she wears contact lenses, the girl has no chance in hell to come back as Raj's romantic interest. What he needs is a severely myopic woman and he will be good to go. . 

 

Not sure about your theory, but I don't see Lucy showing up much past a single episode because Kate Micucci has had her and Riki Lindhome's show picked up by IFC. Now whether she had to turn down a recurring role to do the "Garfunkel and Oates Show" or not we'll never know, but I get the feeling she'd always pick doing something she had more control over than just acting on someone else's show. FYI the video in the link is definitely NSFW and might offend you if you are religious.

 

http://www.ifc.com/fix/2013/09/garfunkel-oates-is-coming-to-ifc-in-2014

Edited October 1, 2013 by wuster

[JonRS92]

Yeah I agree with pretty much what you said, I don't think Penny's father is a bad guy at all, I really liked him he seem's to really care for Penny and really liked Leonard, mostly because of the fact most of the guy's Penny dated over the years were complete loosers lol well according to her father anyway. And good point Penny most likely dated popular good looking guys because of her social make up, she was the cheerleader and the popular girl, I mean she even admitted to bullying in high school, Penny clearly now getting older is repenting and regretting most of the stuff she did when she was younger, but that just make's her human. She dated guy's based on the friend's she had and her peers, up till meeting the guy's she dated guy's based on what was socially expected of her, the same way Leonard dated women who were similar to him, because it was expected oh him from society.

 

Another reason why Leonard and Penny are perfect for each other, they are better when they are with each other. My point about their parent's is that their initial respective upbringing of Leonard and Penny had an influence on their identity and their social makeup later in life, just like Beverley who was cold and distant manifested it self later into Leonard's adult life, hence why he could be so submissive at time's, and always was seeking the approval of women and dated women who were closer tho his mother strong willed, independent women like Stephanie and Priya both dominant type women who are very succesfull in their choosen feild. Remember Stephanie decided to put some of her clothes in Leonard's room. Leonard though has always shown confidence to me, he has always put challenges in front of him, even challenges that seemed out of his reach like Penny, to me Leonard hasen't changed all that much everyone around him has.

 

And with Penny's father always refering to Penny as his "little slugger", she may of moved away to become an actress, the same way she got addicted online gaming, to escape reality. Although I think we can all agree Beverley is not a nice person, you can hardly compare her to Evelyn in Taahm, she at least has prooven she cares and loves her sons yet hold them in no regard, yet on the other hand Beverley shows no regard at all for Leonard, and tbh other then that hug in S3 has shown no love or approval for Leonard. Tbh it's amazing Leonard is such a great guy, the way he was raised he really had to fend for himself. I also think Penny's father maybe always wanted a boy, and Penny to be a bit more sporty then girly. So while their parent's ultimately don't have any impact on their relationship's as adults, Penny and Leonard are both grown up's that's on them, they definately had some kind of influence earlier in life.

 

Ok, I see what you mean there.  Of course both are influenced by their parents.  I guess you could say that Penny's upbringing kind of fills a hole in Leonard's own life.  His father never played sports with him or took him fishing or hunting or anything else that fathers do.  She kind of represents a part of childhood he never had.  Haha, maybe Penny and Leonard had it all wrong in season 2 when they were about to hook up.  Leonard wasn't trying to sleep with his mother, it was his father.  Still either option is gross and good for Penny for booting him out of there.

[Carlos]

Maybe dropping the Beverly, being the mother of all nuclear retaliations (kneel before this dreadful pun), ...

Separating the Lenny at this point would be like tattooing one's own genitals with a biro : a lot of work, a lot of pain, and all that for what ? (Just in case you are wondering, yes, that is the only comparison I could come up with and, yes, I am somewhat ashamed  ). 

So I do not believe for a minute this is where this "lack of reciprocation on Leonard's part" storyline is going. But I do think it is going somewhere. Or rather some time... Like November, for example.

 Hahahaha!! You crack me up!

[Chrismo]

 

 

Have to agree more with @Chiara on this one. In actuality I don't think Leonard is all in. He proposed twice. Once in bed and the other because of Penny's ex proposing. Was their a ring? Him moving in with her was caused by a fight with Sheldon. Even leonard's first ILY was in bed and caused by Penny quoting Star Wars. Why does leonard love Penny? The only two reasons it seems is she's good in bed and she's pretty. The early episodes as @Chiara pointed out with not wanting to team up with Penny in the scavenger hunt and the pity sex . Though realizing he shouldn't of done that in either case he still did it. I agree it's not a bid deal on their own but combined it  is something. Penny being insecure in regards to Alex is telling. If she didn't love Leonard why would she care so much. It was feelings she never expressed before. What does Penny have to offer Leonard that Alex couldn't? Again, Why does Leonard love Penny?

 

Posters above have given good reasons why Leonard loves Penny. The question I should of ask was does Penny realize that? With the next two episodes coming up and Leonard not wanting to team with Penny in the scavenger hunt and tricking her into pity sex her intelligence comes into question again. My original reasons for Leonard loving Penny may not be the only reasons in actuality and from Leonard's actual point of view but how can Penny not think that though.

[Disgusted]

Well, I just got back and waded through all this....

http://www.wanttoknow.info/070103differencesbetweenmenwomen

"The next day Elaine will call her closest friend, or perhaps two of them, and they will talk about this situation for six straight hours. In painstaking detail, they will analyze everything she said and everything he said, going over it time and time again, exploring every word, expression, and gesture for nuances of meaning, considering every possible ramification.

They will continue to discuss this subject, off and on, for weeks, maybe months, never reaching any definite conclusions, but never getting bored with it, either"

This was not a criticism, just an observation, please continue......

Edited October 1, 2013 by Disgusted

[Tensor]

This was not a criticism, just an observation, please continue......

 

This is what you do best......

[Disgusted]

This is what you do best......

 

As long as they don't turn their gaze outward.....

 

The Eye: that horrible growing sense of a hostile will that strove with great power to pierce all shadows of cloud, and earth, and flesh, and to see you: to pin you under its deadly gaze, naked, immovable

 

 

[Chiara]

Well, I just got back and waded through all this...[...]This was not a criticism, just an observation, please continue......

Well, with such enthusiastic backing, how could anyone possibly resist ? 

 

Also, what the hell were they expecting when they called him at 5:30 in the morning?!?!?!?

Maybe he used to get up early on the boat so Penny (and Sheldon) took the habit of calling him before he would start his day, just after he would wake up.

 

And Leonard is ardent enough,  he is just no longer desperate like a drowning person clutching things. The spoiler indicates he is trying to get things to run more his way and that is fair. However, I can't help but be pessimistic about the poor beggar's chances of uninterrupted happiness

I do not think the problem, if problem there is, has anything to do with Leonard's feelings. There is no doubt in my mind that he is every bit as in love with Penny now as he was when he left for the North Sea. However, the way in which he inhabits his relationship with his girlfriend is different and, at times, flawed.

It appears to me that what the writers are trying to communicate in this season's first handful of episodes is Leonard's inexperience. He is in completely unchartered territory. He is confident, happy, satisfied and validated in pretty much every aspect of his life, for the very first time in his existence. As a result, he has no idea what he can/should do.

Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, he has no experience dealing with a vulnerable Penny. He confirmed it in The Egg Salad Equivalency when he said : "I'm sorry. I just never think of you having feelings like that [insecurity]". Leonard has not quite digested the reality (and consequences) of Penny's feelings for him. He is so used to thinking of her as tough and vaguely unreachable that the very idea she may be vulnerable to him / capable of being hurt by his actions is completely foreign to him.

So Leonard has two thoroughly novel elements to compute : his own growing confidence and Penny's heightened sensitivity.

In this season's first handful of episodes, the writers seem to have put forward instances in which those two realities clash : the phone call dismissal (Leonard is too busy having fun to pay attention, Penny's feelings get hurt), the scavenger hunt team drama (Leonard wants to win, Penny's feelings get hurt and she becomes angry) and the compassion-milking endeavour (Leonard wishes ot take control, Penny's feelings get hurt and she pulls out the big gun... Scratch that, she napalms his cute tushie). 

None of these things damages Leonard's « good guy » credentials. He is still the same sweet, lovely man he has always been; just like he was still a great dude even while he was, very inadvertently so, bullying Zack (The Justice League Recombination). Smart and kind people have blind spots too.

Now the question is : where are the writers going with this trend they appear to be creating ?

It could be that they are going to drop the matter entirely after 7.04 (if so, I will be left with a whole omelet on my face, complete with cheese, ham and mushrooms) and Penny and Leonard are going to sail smoothly, all the season through, on an ocean of felicity, mutual understanding and anti-seasickness tablets.

Or they are still the same writers who cannot live without their yearly dose of Lenny-related, sweeps-timed drama and they are building up to something which Chrismo may have nailed :

 

Posters above have given good reasons why Leonard loves Penny. The question I should of ask was does Penny realize that?

 Indeed, if the trend continues, Penny might be (mis)led to believe that Leonard's affection is only skin deep. Which could/should prompt her boyfriend to investigate and explain his feelings further.

It would be an interesting plotline considering Leonard's love for Penny is the basis for show's very premise.

If he had not fallen for his neighbour on that fateful day (and kept that feeling alive for the following six years and counting), there would have been no incentive for him (and his Geek Squad) to attempt to adjust to the outside/adult world and no reason for said world to try to embrace Nerdvana's inhabitants.

No Leonard falling in love with Penny = no plot = no show.

So Leonard attempting to reassure his girlfriend of the depth of his attachment would be instructive both on intra level and a meta one. Neat !

 

Hahahaha!! You crack me up!

I'll be performing here every day. At pretty much every hour. Because, yes, I am that sad !

 

 

ETA Just a quick, general note.

Leonard will be fine and so will his relationship with Penny. While it appears that drama is looming in the near future, I seriously doubt it will cause any lasting damage to either Dr Hofstadter or the Lenny. It will merely serve as a stepping stone for better things. TPTB are delightfully sick and perverted at times, ruthlessly pragmatic on occasion, but they are not so insane as to drag their hero through the mud or break up the show's historic couple just because Thanksgiving is approaching.

Let us all embrace the drama and learn to love the rocking, almost soothing, motion of the punches as they land on our beautiful dreams of a smooth-sailing TV relationship ! It will be over soon. Eyes on the prize !

Edited October 1, 2013 by Chiara

[JonRS92]

Have to agree more with @Chiara on this one. In actuality I don't think Leonard is all in. He proposed twice. Once in bed and the other because of Penny's ex proposing. Was their a ring? Him moving in with her was caused by a fight with Sheldon. Even leonard's first ILY was in bed and caused by Penny quoting Star Wars. Why does leonard love Penny? The only two reasons it seems is she's good in bed and she's pretty. The early episodes as @Chiara pointed out with not wanting to team up with Penny in the scavenger hunt and the pity sex . Though realizing he shouldn't of done that in either case he still did it. I agree it's not a bid deal on their own but combined it  is something. Penny being insecure in regards to Alex is telling. If she didn't love Leonard why would she care so much. It was feelings she never expressed before. What does Penny have to offer Leonard that Alex couldn't? Again, Why does Leonard love Penny?

 

 

Posters above have given good reasons why Leonard loves Penny. The question I should of ask was does Penny realize that? With the next two episodes coming up and Leonard not wanting to team with Penny in the scavenger hunt and tricking her into pity sex her intelligence comes into question again. My original reasons for Leonard loving Penny may not be the only reasons in actuality and from Leonard's actual point of view but how can Penny not think that though.

 

I do think that Penny has reasons to believe that Leonard loves her for more than her looks and the sex.  If Penny wants to think back far enough she should be able to come up with a few.  Most recently, in season 5, Leonard did date her with no sex in the offering for about 4 months I think it was.  Keep going back and you have him helping her financially with no sex reward.  He comforted her about problems with other men when we all know he was happy that she was failing with those guys.  He also always tried to find ways for her to be in his life even when Priya forbid him to (and that was a woman he thought he loved).  He was never seriously tempted by Alex.

 

Whatever behavior problems he has been showing so far this season I don't think should lead Penny to question his love for her.  It is not like he is stepping out on her or regularly ignoring her.  What she should question is whether or not he is taking slight advantage of her.  Given her past boyfriend issues I can see her getting majorly ticked and teaching him how to treat a lady. 

[3ku11]

I may be in a minority here but I do not think the guys Penny dated were solely responsible for the crappy quality of the relationships.

 

While I acknowledge the summary I previously wrote of Penny's past daliances made it look like she was being taken advantage of unilaterally, I think it is slightly more subtil than that for it seems to me that the cheesecake-scented godess also got what she wanted from those relationships. Namely drama.

 

Penny has been shown to love making a scene. She is an actress through and through (and a good one at that) in that regard. The blood pumping, the fury rising, the yelling increasing, the passion peaking, etc. She knows how to do it and enjoys it tremendously. This natural inclination of hers for excess and adrenaline even led her to qualify her couple with Leonard of "boring" (as in "boring kind of love") because it did not rely on screaming matches and fights to survive. 

So while the long series of idiots and halfwits she dated prior to Leonard certainly did benefit from their association with her (they got money, sex and pictures), the other way around was also true : they gave her what she craved at the time, i.e. excitement. 

 

Did Penny truly trust these guys ? And did her feelings really get hurt when they proved to be the braindead buffoons everyone knew they were ? Well...

 

 I believe she used them for the exact same reasons, plus drama. If we look back, there is very little evidence that deep emotions were ever involved in her past relationships. I would not go so far as to say she did not care but I do not have the feeling her love was ever really on the table. 

 

The way in which she reacted to seeing her ex in The Tangible Affection Proof was rather telling : she was not sad, mournful or devastated; instead she was angry and frustrated. Strange reaction if we accept the Penny-delivered premise that she used to love this man... The same logic applies to her relationship with Kurt. Their breakup left Penny crushed, allegedly. Yet, in The Fuzzy Boots Corollary, she was seen kissing another man in the hallway. So, three weeks (or let's say a month) after the end of a four-year relationship, "heartbroken" Penny was enjoying some love-y time with another dude, without a care in the world...

 

My guess is that she did not love either Kurt or the restaurant guy. Not any more than they did her. And that, I believe, is true of all the men Penny dated before Leonard. So in this regard, and while I absolutely accept and argue that she has been burnt by the way her previous boyfriends treated her, there was complete and perfect reciprocation of feelings (or lack thereof). What Penny would resent (and get hurt by) was therefore the discrepancy not in affection but in respect. Her exes bruised her ego by making her feel like a fool (lying, promising to give back money and not doing it, cheating).

However they did not damage her heart because it was never really at stakes. 

 

Conversely, with Leonard, she is all in, so to speak. Heart, pride, etc. The whole bloody lot. She is completely vulnerable. Her displays of affection are not just ways to be nice, friendly, fun, sexy or polite (like they were with the other guys). They are proofs of love. So were Dr. Hofstadter to behave like her previous boyfriends and not reciprocate those... Danger Will Robinson !

 

 You are perfectly coherent, I assure you

 

Penny does not like romance for romance's sake. Valentine's Day makes her puke, love-y dove-y talks put her to sleep, hearts and flowers turn her homicidal, Disney princesses bore her into a coma, etc. With the previous guys, she has been there, done that and reached the conclusion it is all horse faeces (she may be right, by the way). However, she is very sensistive to offbeat, unintentional romantic gestures : preserved snowflakes, chemistry kits, scientific talks and the likes. 

Even the locket is a bit odd. While it definitely is the most traditionally romantic present she has responded positively to so far, it is still just out-of-left-field enough to seduce her. It is so cliché it is almost goofy (I say that with all the tenderness in the world). And it was on clearance. That she likes. 

 

Last season, Penny came as close as possible to utter disaster when she decided she wanted to dump Leonard yet she managed to pull through and give a glorious performance for the rest of year. I have no doubt Leonard will do the same this time.

He will probably get cocky and so secure he will start taking Penny's love for granted, until something hits him in the head (possibly a rolling pin). He will get knocked down for a while. Then proceed to get back up, dust himself off and make amends. He is a resilient homunculus. He will manage

While Penny did move on pretty quickly from Kurt, we got to bear in mind he was a jerk , he cheated her on a few time's I am guessing. I assume the reason she lived with him for four years, as they probably meet through social commonlarities, they both share the same interests, socially they both have the same peers. Just like Leonard hang's out with people like him eggheads, Penny hanged out with her friend's that were like her, good looking, sociable, outgoing e.t.c. Conversely Leonard hanged out with his friend's who were like him, eggheads, socially inept (not anti-social but lack of social skill's is more accuracte), intelliegent, interest's include World's of Warcraft gaming, laser tag e.t.c. I remember though the first guy Penny dated in Season 1 after Kurt, I am sure that was the 3rd or 4th episode in, I think that was when Leonard brought her mail over to her, not sure she was kissing him but they were involved with each other at that point. I get the feeling though Penny was naive especially early on when it came to guy's she were dating, they probably seemed amazing to begin with, but because the basis of most  of those relationship's were physical, their was no depth built in those relationship's, even Penny admitted to this they were really casual and physical, the context of the relationships were exemplified by how sexually active she was in those relationships; With Mike the guy who blogged about their sex life, she did with him in Subways, Parks, and Restaruants, I don't know why Leonard reading the blog back to her is so funny lol. Difference with Leonard they were friend's first that is why she is more honest with Leonard and trust's him more then any guy she has ever been with, that and Leonard intellectually challenges her more then any other guy she had been with in the past, not that is hard considering the guy's she used to date haha.

 

Society expect's you to do certain thing's when it comes to your career, love life, choices you make e.t.c. Penny most likely dated "gym type's", because they were her social equal, just like Leonard dated Priya because she was more his social equal. So while I agree their was complete reciprocation on both parties in the relationship's she is in, her ego more then her heart was damaged, as she lost money, respect e.t.c. (Like Mike who blogged about her sex life, and Kurt who woulden't give her money back). Penny felt more physically abused then emotionally, as she never got to the point where their was an emotional investment just a physical one, this was also the case with DU, that was a physical relationship too, I think Penny's deep seeded insecurities and intimacy issues is the big factor as to why most of her relationship's with guy's were mostly physical like you said Penny love's making scenes, a lot of yelling and drama was a big part of her relationship's, just ask Mike's Ipod This even mainfested it self when Leonard and Penny broke up in S3 in the bowling scene, when Penny usually break's with a guy, it's big, it is loud, it is dramatic, she make's a scene Penny love's it lol, but she never see's the guy again drink's some egg nog/vodka and moves on. One of the big reason's why she probably was considering breaking up with Leonard early on last season, she is used to the drama in her relationship's, compared to other relationship's she felt bored at time's, this was also after Leonard proposed, she was probably getting the same wobbles she was getting in S3, at that point too neither Leonard and Penny were working on their relationship, but then the Lab Scene brought a new spark in their relationship, and reminded Penny why she fell for Leonard in the first place ironically the Science in their relationship.

 

Leonard and Penny's relationship is similar in some ways to Charlie and Alan from Taahm, just like you wonder how Charlie delt with things before Alan was in his life, same with Penny she obviousley had a ton of break up's in her life, every time in S1 she broke up with a guy Leonard was their for her, I even remember Howard said you got to be careful not to get into the friendzone, or you could end up becoming her gay friend lol. Who was their before to console Penny after a bad break up? Her Father? Her Mother? (I'm not disputing the fact her Mom and Dad hasen't been their for her in any of her breakup's, they are her parent's after all, but I am more refering to from her early 20's onwards) Doesen't sound like it, she was 21 when she moved to Pasadena, considering she lived with Kurt for four years, that mean's she lived with Kurt right after highschool, obviousley having these idealistic dreams of stardom, obviousley her Father shed some light on her past relationship's, I am guessing most of them back in Nebraska, and maybe Kurt was just part of that dream until she meet the guys, maybe that's also why she dated those "type" guy's espeically the first two season's, it all came back to her idealistic self-actulization, this was obviousley de-constructed in the Spoiler Alert Ep last season. That's my point Leonard was a huge source of support for her, he is the only guy she can fall back on, she probably thought sub-conciousley if they got involved and it diddn't end well and their was a high percentage of that occuring, she would lose him and that is something that scare's her more then actual emotional intimacy, that and they are neighbours it would just be awkward so Leonard is very different and the only constant guy in her life.

 

The thing that to me has always been endearing about Penny, is she seem's perfect on the outside, she is gorgeous, street smart, outgoing, sociable, bright but on the inside she has flaws like anyone else, and her apperence is just hiding them. Penny even admitted this to Leonard In Season 2x11 (thanks Zhalen ), emphasised when DU was revealed to be married, once again Penny misjudged someone especially another guy, which says alot about her naivity but of course since Season 2 and earlier on with her date with Leonard she has grown a lot smarter, and her tolerance for dumb guy's has decreased, not to mention her ability to judge the good one's from the bad ones. It's funny because I remember in Season 4 Penny said that Zac diddn't challenge her intellectually enough, I remember tho up till 2x11, Penny dated a lot less then she was her acting career was not going well at that point, remember in The Barbarian Sublimation, she was complaining about how her acting is going no where, she haden't had an audition in ages, said one of the auditions she went for said she was too much of a type, and she also said she haden't had sex in 6 months.

 

People forget that in the sitcom world, a week can be a equivalent to a month. I think though at that point was the beginning of Penny's growth that obviousley culminated in Season 6 with her self-actulization changing, people forget Penny came to Pasadena to be a big movie star, so everything from her dating, to her image, to her peer's, her clothe's, her demenour and temperement were all a physical manisfestation of her idealistic self-actulization. Just like now in Season 6 Penny is a lot more domesticated, from how tidy her apartment is, to her relationship with her friend's and Leonard, and to the way she pre-plans meal's for Leonard now almost like a housewife, you noticed that with all the characters too in Season 6. The first three when the characters were single, they all had take out dinner's together, now Howard and Bernadette is married, and other then Raj everyone is in a relationship, you saw a shift in the group dynamic's, which I love the balance now. Leonard and Penny 75 % of Season 6 had dinner's together intimately as a couple, most of the group hangout's were specifc and refined, like DD game, dinner partie's these characters are all evolving.

 

Just like Penny wanting to be a big star manifested on every aspect on her life, her self-actulization has matured, as she is now appreciating thing's she diddn't did when she was younger, she used to define her happiness based on her shallow outlook on life, from her acting to the type of guy's she dated. That outlook has now been deconstructed, and is now realizing those ideal's are not as relevant any more.  This is all changed in 1x17 The Tangerine Factor, Penny just broke up with Mike after blogging about their sex life, that was the point Penny got to her breaking point, she was sick of dating guy's for their looks and money, she was finnally ready for a real relationship with a guy who actually cares about her, which is really the heart of Lenny.

Edited October 2, 2013 by 3ku11