Spoilers Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread

[3ku11]

@chiara, I think that "bro code" in retrospect was the wrong term to use, as it implies a broader set of urban rules that I don't subscribe to. I was thinking more that he doesn't rat out his friends to save his own hide. In "The Egg Salad Equivalency", Sheldon threw Howard, Raj and Leonard under the bus to attempt to divert Ms. Davis from his own transgressions. Later in the same episode, Raj rats out Howard, his best bud, to divert Ms. Davis from the alcohol on his breath. In the most recent episode, Howard rats out Leonard to Bernie to try and excuse his attempts at manipulation. I can't think of a single time that Leonard has used any other the other guys as a figurative or literal human shield.

We've two examples where one or more of they guys tried to control their sisters - Sheldon with Missy ("pimping her out for cheese" is one of my favorite lines) and Raj with Priya. Sheldon really didn't object to any of the guys having a relationship with Missy, he just wanted to preserve his "special" genetic legacy. Raj was simply being racist. His objections were less about any of the guys having a relationship with his sister. Rather, he objects to her have having any dealings with a man who is not Indian of suitable caste.

Generally, the guys respect no rules when it comes to getting sex. Raj certainly had no qualms about sleeping with Penny when he had the chance, even when she was blackout drunk. And quite frankly, before Bernie, Howard would have slept Leonard's mother or sister if he had the chance. He was that much of a horndog, and had no standards that I could see. Leonard appeared to have snaked Dr. Stephanie from Howard, but Howard had no chance with her. By any "bro code" I know of, Stephanie was fair game in that case. Sheldon really doesn't figure into this as he is still essentially asexual.

Leonard giving Penny Sheldon's mother's phone number was entirely justified, as Sheldon was being ridiculous and leaning toward out of control. There is a big difference between tying up the washing machines on a Saturday night to inconvenience Sheldon and his OCD, and Sheldon throwing her clothes up on telephone wires. Sheldon has no line that he won't cross. Leonard didn't betray Sheldon to save himself from something that Leonard had done wrong, he was effectively correcting Sheldon for Sheldon doing something wrong.

So I guess my point is that Leonard has never involved one of the others in the group to keep himself out of trouble. He's not above drawing sympathy to himself, however. It is only this recent episode where he actually got real sympathy.

On a different note, after rewatching the recent episode, I must restate that I do not like the way they Skype Beverley in. This is the second time that they've used to her to kick Leonard in the teeth, without the others having to suffer too. While the advice she gave him in "The Skank Reflex" was correct, it was cruelly done. The same occurred here. Beverly simply hurt Leonard. While it might be therapeutic for Leonard to realize that he actually witnessed the paddle event, and didn't dream it, it didn't look to me that Beverly was doing this to help Leonard. She was punishing him by messing with his head.

I think the Beverley scene showed Penny's new way's of dealing with implied or implicit deception from Leonard, opposed to getting angry or "hulking" out like she did often in S3, or if she was dating another guy, she decided to get even, to balance the power of the relationship back to order. Almost so the boat doesen't rock and is kept settled. When it come's to Howard I have to disagree with you, when it came to dating Bernadette he held off, because he even said when it came to finally getting a girlfriend he always though it would be different, so he had this fantasy of the perfect women, a women unfortunately for Howard who was so out of his league. One of my all time fav lines of the whole series maybe ever came from Penny, cannot remember it exactly but "Bernadette is the best you can do, their's no one else, on behalf of all women, we had a meeting!" lol. The guy's at their core are nerd's so clearly they have all had fantasies of their perfect women, remember when Missy visited in Season One, they all fought for her attention, Sheldon diddn't care at first until someone made it obvious to him that Missy reproduce the next Sheldon's of the future haha, so the mate she get's with could heavily influence that. It's funny because Leonard had this huge crush on Penny, and for an episode his attention's were toward's another women that wasen't Penny, so I can understand when people say he see's Penny as a sex object, but that was early on in the show, obviousley later on Penny and Leonard developed a friendship and added depth to their relationship.

 

And with Stephanie like you said Howard never had a shot, so their should be no perceived deception from Leonard's part, I mean Stephanie paired one of her friend's with Howard and he was all good haha. I always loved the scene when Penny came into kitchen in the morning, and Stephanie was like "Leonard why is their a women in her underwear walking around your apartment?". This is actually the first time I can think of that Leonard has manipulated or monopolized the situation and Penny to gain sex, but it wasen't pre determined or planned, it was more in the moment, then he was having so much fun, he just coulden't help but find out how much he could get away with, but of course Penny got even. Penny is like that though most of the time she is really sweet, but get on her bad side and her bite is just as big as her sweet side, so I thought it was funny getting Beverley involved like that, depends how you saw it but it was really the best and worst way to get back at Leonard and get even.

[Chrismo]

I'm sorry it ended badly for you. I have some idea about family pressures but my case is slightly different, though it lasted five years. And in fiction it went ok for Chandler and Monica. I'm not going to say its a rule, is all. Call me romantic but love conquers all - especially in fiction, if they choose to write it that way.

Chandler/Monica and Leonard/ Priya were to me two totally different sitiations. Chandler and Monica were both part of the "group".In that case they hid it from Ross because of what his reaction would be. In reality the only risk was if it went bad later the others would have been left to choose sides. Leonard/Priya on the other hand it made the other schoose sides immediately though I don't think Leonard realized that until Priya mentioned that she was uncomfortable with Penny's presence. Penny was the one that was part of the "group". It ended up like a" bro and sis code"(sorry @Chiara) the guys with Leonard and the girls with Penny and Sheldon straddling the fence like "Spaghetti Catalyst".

[JonRS92]

I do agree with most of what you said. To me though the Leonard/Priya relationship never should of happened. In that case Leonard and Priya should of known better. It just causes an awkward situation for the friend/sibling(Raj). Ironically though people seem to be more upset with Raj/Penny than Leonard/Priya. That's something I never understood.

 

As one who was infinitely more upset with Raj/Penny I can offer some thoughts on that and whether or not anyone else agrees is another matter.  When Raj/Penny happened the audience knew several things that that the key characters did not.  First, we knew for weeks that Penny was regretting breaking up with Leonard.  Yes, she said it out loud to Raj, but I think it safe to say that Amy and Bernie already knew.  Now Raj knew.  The audience also had the assumption that Leonard and Priya were probably going to break up.  It didn't happen right then but it looked to the audience at the time that it was happening.  So the audience sees Leonard and Priya heading toward a breakup and Penny still in love with Leonard so the Lenny people probably had their hopes up only to have Raj/Penny happen.  I have had it explained to me by people on this board who know probably better than I do why this happened and they have a justification for it.  I do not.  I believe their reasons for Penny, but not for Raj.  I won't get into all the specifics for fear of starting up a debate that has thankfully already ended.  Needless to say I think Penny deserves some blame for that, but the real bad guy in that episode was Raj.  He knew (I think) that Priya was leaving and probably going to end things with Leonard.  Penny had just admitted to him that she regretted breaking up with Leonard and, more importantly, that (for reasons only the writers know) although she found him attractive enough to sleep with, she did not want to because they were friends.  Yes, Raj was drunk, but he was coherent enough to remember the whole thing the next day, so it is safe to assume he remembered Penny's words and knew she didn't want to sleep with him.  So why would you sleep with the girl who is still in love with your friend when you know (or should have known) there was a chance she was going to get him back and you know she doesn't really want to sleep with you?  Drunk or not, lonely or not, in my mind there is no excuse for Raj.  Until season 6, I couldn't stand to see him in any scene.  He's worked his way back into my good graces since then, but it took awhile.  As far as Leonard and Priya were concerned.  They had been together previously and when they started seeing each other again, we didn't know yet how much Penny was regretting her decision.  So for me, Leonard dating Priya was nowhere near the level of betrayal as Raj and Penny.

Edited October 12, 2013 by JonRS92

[SodidIwin?]

I think the Beverley scene showed Penny's new way's of dealing with implied or implicit deception from Leonard, opposed to getting angry or "hulking" out like she did often in S3, or if she was dating another guy, she decided to get even, to balance the power of the relationship back to order. Almost so the boat doesen't rock and is kept settled. When it come's to Howard I have to disagree with you, when it came to dating Bernadette he held off, because he even said when it came to finally getting a girlfriend he always though it would be different, so he had this fantasy of the perfect women, a women unfortunately for Howard who was so out of his league. One of my all time fav lines of the whole series maybe ever came from Penny, cannot remember it exactly but "Bernadette is the best you can do, their's no one else, on behalf of all women, we had a meeting!" lol. The guy's at their core are nerd's so clearly they have all had fantasies of their perfect women, remember when Missy visited in Season One, they all fought for her attention, Sheldon diddn't care at first until someone made it obvious to him that Missy reproduce the next Sheldon's of the future haha, so the mate she get's with could heavily influence that. It's funny because Leonard had this huge crush on Penny, and for an episode his attention's were toward's another women that wasen't Penny, so I can understand when people say he see's Penny as a sex object, but that was early on in the show, obviousley later on Penny and Leonard developed a friendship and added depth to their relationship.

 

And with Stephanie like you said Howard never had a shot, so their should be no perceived deception from Leonard's part, I mean Stephanie paired one of her friend's with Howard and he was all good haha. I always loved the scene when Penny came into kitchen in the morning, and Stephanie was like "Leonard why is their a women in her underwear walking around your apartment?". This is actually the first time I can think of that Leonard has manipulated or monopolized the situation and Penny to gain sex, but it wasen't pre determined or planned, it was more in the moment, then he was having so much fun, he just coulden't help but find out how much he could get away with, but of course Penny got even. Penny is like that though most of the time she is really sweet, but get on her bad side and her bite is just as big as her sweet side, so I thought it was funny getting Beverley involved like that, depends how you saw it but it was really the best and worst way to get back at Leonard and get even.

I agree with everything you have stated. However, not to be nit picky but I feel compiled to come to Leonard's defense in regards to Missy. If you remember when Leonard goes to Penny's apartment to ask Missy on a date Penny answers the door. The first thing Leonard does is ask how Penny was, but more importantly, ask's her if she and Mike were doing well and still together. Once she said they were good then, and only then, does he ask her if he can speak with Missy. If he thought he had an opening with Penny he would have dumped the idea of asking Missy out on a date IMO.

[hamerman55]

I agree with everything you have stated. However, not to be nit picky but I feel compiled to come to Leonard's defense in regards to Missy. If you remember when Leonard goes to Penny's apartment to ask Missy on a date Penny answers the door. The first thing Leonard does is ask how Penny was, but more importantly, ask's her if she and Mike were doing well and still together. Once she said they were good then, and only then, does he ask her if he can speak with Missy. If he thought he had an opening with Penny he would have dumped the idea of asking Missy out on a date IMO.

Leonard has always made it clear that Penny was his first choice, even as early as the first season. The boy has been very consistent. The problem all along has been Penny. As much as I hated it, the Season 3 break up was needed to get the two of them to have additional experiences and grow up. Penny in particular needed to date the sort of guys she used to in order to learn that the buff normal guys just didn't float her boat anymore. It took her a little longer to accept that no other guy but Leonard worked for her, in a fundamental way. Leonard still had some growing to do, first, for the relationship to really work. I believe that proof of the strength of the bonding was that Leonard dating Priya and Penny accidentally sleeping with Raj didn't really damage the feelings they both had for each other. Basically, I believe they loved each other since early in the first season. We've just been watching a long, complex mating dance.

 

I think the two key delaying events were the break up itself, and the misadventure with Raj. The aftermath of her dumping Leonard was that Penny had to come to terms with the situation she had with Leonard, and how to deal with a real long-term relationship. This, in my opinion, was one of the two key reasons she was having trouble with the relationship. The other was Leonard's insecurities,

 

It is interesting that Penny seems oddly reluctant to initiate things with Leonard. Since the Season 3 breakup, there were two long periods where Leonard was available, and things were pretty good between them. Penny could easily have asked Leonard to restart their relationship and Leonard would have jumped at it. Instead, she basically sat pining by the phone. It seems that Penny has no problem initiate sex (as she stated in the online gaming episode) but is very reticent about basically asking Leonard out. We as the audience know that they both wanted each other, but everything waited on Leonard. Again, this is another glaring example of how the show is centered on Leonard, in spite of the prominent of Sheldon. The episode where Amy points out that the group is completely Leonard-centric just hung a lampshade on the show.

 

I actually suspect that if Penny had walked up to Leonard while he was dating Priya, told him she loved him and wanted to get back together, Leonard would have dumped Priya immediately. Priya had made it perfectly clear that Leonard was not going to be long-term with her, particularly since she categorically refused to reveal Leonard's role in her life to her parents. In "The Agreement Dissection" she specifically stated that if Leonard allowed Sheldon to email her parents that she was dating Priya, she would dump him immediately. It is clear to Sheldon, Leonard and Raj that the relationship was a short term fling. "The Roommate Transmogrification" was one of the classic sit-com episodes that have several events happen in an order such that the main couple is kept apart for "just a little longer". The first season and a half of "Friends" was full of this.

 

The resentment that I believe many of us have about Raj sleeping with Penny is that it delayed Penny and Leonard getting together. What makes it worse is that Raj knew his sister was moving back. I believe that Raj slept with Penny specifically to revenge himself on Leonard. That they had the right to do so is not in question, on the "bro code" level. They were both on paper free agents. Raj however had all the information needed to effect a reunion between Penny and Leonard, and instead chose to hurt Leonard, and Penny in the process. Imagine the scenario of Raj not sleeping with Penny. He supports her as a friend, and tells her that Priya is moving back to India, and there is absolutely no chance that she will continue her relationship with Leonard. She will dump him when she is finishing playing with him. He tells Penny to hang in there a little longer, as Leonard will shortly be available. He then tells Leonard that Penny was sorry that she broke up with him, and would love to get back together. Boom, instant reunion. Instead, he sleeps with Penny, and keeps her confidence to himself. As I pointed out earlier, these guys have few secrets from each other, and will rat each other out if it keeps them out of trouble (Leonard excepted). So Raj deliberately sleeps with Penny and conceals the information that she wanted him back, to revenge himself on Leonard. 

 

I hope that you will excuse my digression about Raj and Penny's misadventure. It was so unnecessary, and is another example of how Raj is really the worst person on the show. Raj should be begging Leonard for forgiveness instead of being cast from the group. His plot lines with Stewart are funny, but Penny and Leonard both now should realize how Raj really, truly betrayed both of them. 

I split this off from my recent post as a separate topic. The parallel between Amy's experiment of emotional transference on Sheldon seems to have parallels to the Penny-Leonard-Beverly confrontation in "The Raiders Minimization", and thought it deserved to be discussed separately.

 

I believe that Leonard needed to suffer through Priya's insults and betrayals to grow a backbone, and possibly to suffer through the humiliation of "The Raiders Minimization" to break from his mother. At this point in his life, his mother really only needs to exists as a theoretical construct. He realizes that he was basically a long-term lab experiment to her, and Penny has proven to be the only source of true human support and love. I had the epiphany by seeing another thread title below ("If The Writers Broke Up Penny And Leonard") that if they broke up, appropriate responses for Leonard at this point would be to commit suicide or become a super villain. Penny is clearly the only person that has nurtured and supported him emotionally, and for them to break up at this point would truly break Leonard. Penny is likely the only person to say ILY to Leonard and mean it (Beverly may have said it to gauge his reaction). Since then, Penny has shown insecurity toward losing Leonard to someone like Alex, has been willing to let him move in to her apartment rather than chance a difficult conversation with him. actually open up to him about very real feelings, totally be on his side in any way she can and go to school to even up the education gap. Basically Penny is doing everything she can to make the relationship work long-term, and develop toward a marriage. Leonard has to pick up on the fact that lazy Penny is actually working very hard to become his partner. Calling in Beverly actually serves the purpose of disconnecting Leonard from his mother, and furthering his connection with Penny. A parallel with Amy's experiment on Sheldon just appeared to me. I cannot remember or easily figure out which episode it was, but it was the one where Amy used Sheldon's childhood delights to transfer his love of those things (like Strawberry Quik and spaghetti with little hot dog slices) to her. Could Penny have set up the situation where Leonard can either let Beverly keep messing with his life, and destroy his situation with Penny, or accept that his mother is truly bad for him, and Penny is where his focus should solely be now. I don't feel like I'm stating this well, as the Beverly-Leonard relationship is so twisted, and the Penny-Leonard relationship is so wonderful, it is hard to draw the connection I want to.

 

I would take from this scene that it is more than just trying to make the point not to manipulate Penny and re-establish the relationship boundaries. It seems deeper to me than this, upon reflection. Penny is learning some psychology, and has Amy to advise her. It is likely that this was more of a set up than we suspect, as Penny is doing what Bernie needs to do - fix the mother-child relationship in their guys. Leonard wants affection from his mother. He isn't even going to get it, but Penny has it to spare. Penny will do things to make him happy, Beverly will do things to make him unhappy. Penny basically worships Leonard's intelligence and character. He is a lab rat to Beverly. Our fear that Penny would bring Beverly into the bedroom is actually 180 degrees off. The message is to leave Beverly out of the bedroom, to the extent she is in the apartment at all. I also suspect that Penny will never mentioned Beverly's book again.

[JonRS92]

Leonard has always made it clear that Penny was his first choice, even as early as the first season. The boy has been very consistent. The problem all along has been Penny. As much as I hated it, the Season 3 break up was needed to get the two of them to have additional experiences and grow up. Penny in particular needed to date the sort of guys she used to in order to learn that the buff normal guys just didn't float her boat anymore. It took her a little longer to accept that no other guy but Leonard worked for her, in a fundamental way. Leonard still had some growing to do, first, for the relationship to really work. I believe that proof of the strength of the bonding was that Leonard dating Priya and Penny accidentally sleeping with Raj didn't really damage the feelings they both had for each other. Basically, I believe they loved each other since early in the first season. We've just been watching a long, complex mating dance.

 

I think the two key delaying events were the break up itself, and the misadventure with Raj. The aftermath of her dumping Leonard was that Penny had to come to terms with the situation she had with Leonard, and how to deal with a real long-term relationship. This, in my opinion, was one of the two key reasons she was having trouble with the relationship. The other was Leonard's insecurities,

 

It is interesting that Penny seems oddly reluctant to initiate things with Leonard. Since the Season 3 breakup, there were two long periods where Leonard was available, and things were pretty good between them. Penny could easily have asked Leonard to restart their relationship and Leonard would have jumped at it. Instead, she basically sat pining by the phone. It seems that Penny has no problem initiate sex (as she stated in the online gaming episode) but is very reticent about basically asking Leonard out. We as the audience know that they both wanted each other, but everything waited on Leonard. Again, this is another glaring example of how the show is centered on Leonard, in spite of the prominent of Sheldon. The episode where Amy points out that the group is completely Leonard-centric just hung a lampshade on the show.

 

I actually suspect that if Penny had walked up to Leonard while he was dating Priya, told him she loved him and wanted to get back together, Leonard would have dumped Priya immediately. Priya had made it perfectly clear that Leonard was not going to be long-term with her, particularly since she categorically refused to reveal Leonard's role in her life to her parents. In "The Agreement Dissection" she specifically stated that if Leonard allowed Sheldon to email her parents that she was dating Priya, she would dump him immediately. It is clear to Sheldon, Leonard and Raj that the relationship was a short term fling. "The Roommate Transmogrification" was one of the classic sit-com episodes that have several events happen in an order such that the main couple is kept apart for "just a little longer". The first season and a half of "Friends" was full of this.

I have always wondered about this. It seems established that Penny is the "guy" in her relationship with Leonard, why did she never ask him out?

 

The resentment that I believe many of us have about Raj sleeping with Penny is that it delayed Penny and Leonard getting together. What makes it worse is that Raj knew his sister was moving back. I believe that Raj slept with Penny specifically to revenge himself on Leonard. That they had the right to do so is not in question, on the "bro code" level. They were both on paper free agents. Raj however had all the information needed to effect a reunion between Penny and Leonard, and instead chose to hurt Leonard, and Penny in the process. Imagine the scenario of Raj not sleeping with Penny. He supports her as a friend, and tells her that Priya is moving back to India, and there is absolutely no chance that she will continue her relationship with Leonard. She will dump him when she is finishing playing with him. He tells Penny to hang in there a little longer, as Leonard will shortly be available. He then tells Leonard that Penny was sorry that she broke up with him, and would love to get back together. Boom, instant reunion. Instead, he sleeps with Penny, and keeps her confidence to himself. As I pointed out earlier, these guys have few secrets from each other, and will rat each other out if it keeps them out of trouble (Leonard excepted). So Raj deliberately sleeps with Penny and conceals the information that she wanted him back, to revenge himself on Leonard. 

 

I hope that you will excuse my digression about Raj and Penny's misadventure. It was so unnecessary, and is another example of how Raj is really the worst person on the show. Raj should be begging Leonard for forgiveness instead of being cast from the group. His plot lines with Stewart are funny, but Penny and Leonard both now should realize how Raj really, truly betrayed both of them.

These were my feelings all along. This, to me, was the writers' biggest mistake they have made on the show. I don't know, in the end, whose fault it was, but someone looked at this situation and said "wouldn't it be hilarious and shocking if Raj and Penny end up sleeping together?" Huge miscalculation and huge ignorance of logic. Going back even a bit further that same season, the writers were really making Raj into a true villain. His glee that Bernie wanted to break up with Howard, how he actually starting hitting on her, gleefully watching and rooting for his best friend to have his heart destroyed if Bernie rejected his proposal. Then choosing to sleep with Penny even though he knew what Penny wanted and probably what Leonard wanted. They made him into a self-centered a-hole. And I truly believe that the writers thought this was all funny. And I suppose in sitcom land it is all funny. But when you sit back and really look at Raj, he was not funny. He was evil. I'd also question Penny even being remotely physically attracted to Raj given what she knows of his personality to that point. She saw what he was willing to do to Howard. I would have hoped that this would have been a turn-off even her drinking couldn't overcome. As you pointed out, all Raj had to do was tell Penny what was coming and to just wait. It would have been believable, and what a real friend would have done. Alas, the writers/PTB wanted this ending so all logic was thrown out the window. 

 

I split this off from my recent post as a separate topic. The parallel between Amy's experiment of emotional transference on Sheldon seems to have parallels to the Penny-Leonard-Beverly confrontation in "The Raiders Minimization", and thought it deserved to be discussed separately.

 

I believe that Leonard needed to suffer through Priya's insults and betrayals to grow a backbone, and possibly to suffer through the humiliation of "The Raiders Minimization" to break from his mother. At this point in his life, his mother really only needs to exists as a theoretical construct. He realizes that he was basically a long-term lab experiment to her, and Penny has proven to be the only source of true human support and love. I had the epiphany by seeing another thread title below ("If The Writers Broke Up Penny And Leonard") that if they broke up, appropriate responses for Leonard at this point would be to commit suicide or become a super villain. Penny is clearly the only person that has nurtured and supported him emotionally, and for them to break up at this point would truly break Leonard. Penny is likely the only person to say ILY to Leonard and mean it (Beverly may have said it to gauge his reaction). Since then, Penny has shown insecurity toward losing Leonard to someone like Alex, has been willing to let him move in to her apartment rather than chance a difficult conversation with him. actually open up to him about very real feelings, totally be on his side in any way she can and go to school to even up the education gap. Basically Penny is doing everything she can to make the relationship work long-term, and develop toward a marriage. Leonard has to pick up on the fact that lazy Penny is actually working very hard to become his partner. Calling in Beverly actually serves the purpose of disconnecting Leonard from his mother, and furthering his connection with Penny. A parallel with Amy's experiment on Sheldon just appeared to me. I cannot remember or easily figure out which episode it was, but it was the one where Amy used Sheldon's childhood delights to transfer his love of those things (like Strawberry Quik and spaghetti with little hot dog slices) to her. Could Penny have set up the situation where Leonard can either let Beverly keep messing with his life, and destroy his situation with Penny, or accept that his mother is truly bad for him, and Penny is where his focus should solely be now. I don't feel like I'm stating this well, as the Beverly-Leonard relationship is so twisted, and the Penny-Leonard relationship is so wonderful, it is hard to draw the connection I want to.

 

I would take from this scene that it is more than just trying to make the point not to manipulate Penny and re-establish the relationship boundaries. It seems deeper to me than this, upon reflection. Penny is learning some psychology, and has Amy to advise her. It is likely that this was more of a set up than we suspect, as Penny is doing what Bernie needs to do - fix the mother-child relationship in their guys. Leonard wants affection from his mother. He isn't even going to get it, but Penny has it to spare. Penny will do things to make him happy, Beverly will do things to make him unhappy. Penny basically worships Leonard's intelligence and character. He is a lab rat to Beverly. Our fear that Penny would bring Beverly into the bedroom is actually 180 degrees off. The message is to leave Beverly out of the bedroom, to the extent she is in the apartment at all. I also suspect that Penny will never mentioned Beverly's book again.

While I would hope that most of this is true, I don't think Penny has the background to work out such an elaborately psychological scheme. Maybe if Amy and Bernadette were there to help her. We don't know if they were or not, but seems more likely she wanted revenge and she went full out.

Edited October 12, 2013 by JonRS92

[Chrismo]

 

These were my feelings all along. This, to me, was the writers biggest mistake they have made on the show. I don't know, in the end, whose fault it was, but someone looked at this situation and said "wouldn't be hilarious and shocking if Raj and Penny end up sleeping together?" Huge miscalculation and huge ignorance of logic. Going back even a bit further that same season, the writers were really making Raj into a true villain. His glee that Bernie wanted to break up with Howard, how he actually starting hitting on her, gleefully watching and rooting for his best friend to have his heart destroyed if Bernie rejected his proposal. Then choosing to sleep with Penny even though he knew what Penny wanted and probably what Leonard wanted. They made him into a self-centered a-hole. And I truly believe that the writers thought this was all funny. And I suppose in sitcom land it is all funny. But when you sit back and really look at Raj, he was not funny. He was evil. I'd also question Penny even being remotely physically attracted to Raj given what she knows of his personality to that point. She saw what he was willing to do to Howard. I would have hoped that this would have been a turn-off even her drinking couldn't overcome. Alas, the writers/PTB wanted this ending so all logic was thrown out the window. 

 

My point of view on this seems to be different than yours and @hammerman. To be begin with Raj crush on Bernie was just totally wrong. His hoping for Bernie's rejection of Howard was the low of the low. The Penny/Raj/lLeonard/Priya was different IMO.First of all this could be my memory but I don't necesarily for sure remember Raj knowing that Priya was going back to India. Also I understand that everyone was an adult but originally Raj didn't like the idea of Priya/Leonard. Leonard should have saw things were over when Sheldon proved (to me with no previous knowledge) thta Priya was too embarassed to tell her parents about their relationship. Still after she moved he tried to stay a couple with Priya. Back to Raj, I don't think he necessarily knew that both L/P wanted to get back together until that "fateful" night when Penny admitted she screwed up.Raj I don't think planned on getting drunk with Penny and taking advantage. But given the opportunity he did. I don't think he knew what was going on with Leonard and Priya. Raj even admitted later in the cafe he was Penny's number 2 and thus Leonard would of been her first choice. Penny's biggest fault was she was totally passed out drunk and she needed to tell Leonard how she felt about him.

[ArmyGirl]

Raj knew that Priya was going back to India, just like he knew about her talking to her ex-boyfriend Sanja.  Raj knew Penny didn't want to sleep with him but in the end it didn't matter because it was always about what he wanted.  And then Raj had the nerve to think Penny wanted a relationship with him---- I mean where did he get this from other than in his own mind.  Just like the thought he had a chance with Bernie and that to was only in his mind. 

 

As for Raj not knowing that Penny and Leonard still cared for each other ---- come on the guy is around them enough to know there was still feelings there and most likely L/P would have gotten back together at some point. Raj had been trying to get with Penny since season two and he saw a drunk Penny and went for it.  And that makes him lower than pond scum In my opinion!

[Chrismo]

Raj knew that Priya was going back to India, just like he knew about her talking to her ex-boyfriend Sanja.  Raj knew Penny didn't want to sleep with him but in the end it didn't matter because it was always about what he wanted.  And then Raj had the nerve to think Penny wanted a relationship with him---- I mean where did he get this from other than in his own mind.  Just like the thought he had a chance with Bernie and that to was only in his mind. 

 

As for Raj not knowing that Penny and Leonard still cared for each other ---- come on the guy is around them enough to know there was still feelings there and most likely L/P would have gotten back together at some point. Raj had been trying to get with Penny since season two and he saw a drunk Penny and went for it.  And that makes him lower than pond scum In my opinion!

When was it stated that he knew she was going back to India and knew about Sanja? Maybe I'm wrong but I think this was an assumption. I agree he had no chance with Bernie and Penny.As to knowing that L/P still had feelings for one another? Again to me another assumption. Even if he did was it really his place to say anything? Everything appeared to be going smoothly. Obviously Raj seized on an opportunity with Penny. Neither had anyone. A lot of guys would have tried to sleep with a drunk Penny. It was also true he was(not as) drunk. Does it excuse him? No. But it doesn't excuse Penny either. 

[Oldnavy]

How long is this issue of Raj/Penny/Priya/Leonard going to go on.  All of that was three years ago now, when doe sit get put to rest?

[Tensor]

How long is this issue of Raj/Penny/Priya/Leonard going to go on.  All of that was three years ago now, when doe sit get put to rest?

I think part of the problem is that there are new people discovering the show and asking the same questions we've already asked and debated.

[Nogravitasatall]

When Penny says "you still go left! " in 7.04 she has an expression on her face of sheer illicit delight in saying something so (mildly) risqué. I've never seen her look like that before. Usually she is more knowing and less entertained. And when Leonard says "I'm going to go right, don't make a big deal of it" she just looks... um, very playful. Completely in the game. That's so nice to see they are having fun and not treating each other as delicately as they once did. I think a lot of this episode demonstrated their current robustness.

[Occam's Chainsaw]

^^^ I totally agree, there were not any real issues shown in this episode as far as the Lenny goes. Honestly my only problem with the episode stems from my personal dislike of the Beverly character.

[Nogravitasatall]

I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post so I only quote this bit : 

 

Leonard is a most excellent friend but he has shown he was not opposed to disregarding the "bro code" when necessary : he slept with Raj's sister even though he knew Raj did not want it to happen; he slept with Priya even though he had a deal with Howard about not hitting on her; and he went behind Sheldon's back to give Penny Mary's phone number. 

 

What Leonard was doing in The Raiders Minimization was wrong (he even admitted it) so he could not demand his friend to cover for him. Similarly, Raj's expectation of control over whom his sister slept with was utterly ridiculous so no man on Earth, Leonard included, was duty bound to abide by Dr Koothrappali's wishes; and Howard and Leonard had no right to impose some form of selective embargo on Priya's sexuality and/or romantic life without consulting her so their pinky-sworn "pact" was null and void. As for Dr Hofstadter giving Penny Sheldon's kryptonite, it was a sound decision based on a justifiable desire to put an end to the madness. 

 

With all due respect, any breach of the "bro code" is a good thing in my eyes. Loyalty to one's friends is a fantastic and very respectable bound indeed, as long as it does not contradict the basic rules of logic and/or decency. But the "bro code", whose first article is "Bros before Hoes"... I am sorry to say but that is, in Beverly's immortal word, "yikes" (not in a good way). And no amount of Neil Patrick Harris loveliness can change that

 

PS For the sake of clarity and impartiality, allow me to add that if there is such a thing as the "sis code" and its opening line is something like "Chicks before Pr*cks", it is just as brain-meltingly "yikes" (still not in a good way).

"no one likes a snitch" is more where Howard falls. AND a big fail for a weak reason, because we know Bernadette is enthused for him and he doesn't go short on lovin'. I don't hate him for it, but it was lame that he crumpled like an empty tinny.

[Tensor]

^^^ I totally agree, there were not any real issues shown in this episode as far as the Lenny goes. Honestly my only problem with the episode stems from my personal dislike of the Beverly character.

Occam, the following comment isn't on you, the quote I'm using is just such a great lead in for my point, which is: How well does this illustrate the point that you can't depend on the taping report for the final determination on how the episode turns out?

[ArmyGirl]

When was it stated that he knew she was going back to India and knew about Sanja? Maybe I'm wrong but I think this was an assumption. I agree he had no chance with Bernie and Penny.As to knowing that L/P still had feelings for one another? Again to me another assumption. Even if he did was it really his place to say anything? Everything appeared to be going smoothly. Obviously Raj seized on an opportunity with Penny. Neither had anyone. A lot of guys would have tried to sleep with a drunk Penny. It was also true he was(not as) drunk. Does it excuse him? No. But it doesn't excuse Penny either. 

 

So I guess when Raj told Leonard about Priya talking to her ex on Skype all night means he knew nothing about Sanja.  Well since this very thing happen in S4E19 it shows Raj knew more than he let on and so I guess I am not assuming too much if he knew about the ex-boyfriend and are that his sister was going back to India.

 

What happen between Raj and Penny was on them and them only.  And just because a lot of guys would see with a drunk Penny doesn't mean Raj should --- and since he did it make his lower than pond scum!

Edited October 12, 2013 by ArmyGirl

[Martin Pollard]

When was it stated that he knew she was going back to India and knew about Sanja? Maybe I'm wrong but I think this was an assumption.

 

Sure, it's an assumption, but it's based on pretty good circumstantial evidence. Raj mentioned Priya's ex-boyfriend in an earlier episode, so that's already out there, and since Priya mentioned sleeping with her ex, it's a pretty good bet they were talking about Sanjay. And how did Raj know that Priya was going back to India? Maybe the fact that Priya was staying with Raj, thus he'd have a pretty good idea of what was going on with her life. (Raj's apartment isn't exactly spacious, and there's only one bedroom. There isn't a lot of privacy to be had there.)

[ArmyGirl]

Sure, it's an assumption, but it's based on pretty good circumstantial evidence. Raj mentioned Priya's ex-boyfriend in an earlier episode, so that's already out there, and since Priya mentioned sleeping with her ex, it's a pretty good bet they were talking about Sanjay. And how did Raj know that Priya was going back to India? Maybe the fact that Priya was staying with Raj, thus he'd have a pretty good idea of what was going on with her life. (Raj's apartment isn't exactly spacious, and there's only one bedroom. There isn't a lot of privacy to be had there.)

 

Thank you MJPollard ---- I thought for minute I was the only one that saw it play out on screen.  And no it's not that big of a stretch in believing Raj knew his sister was going back to India and didn't tell anyone.

[Tensor]

Leonard seemed to know that Raj knew about Priya going back. From his reaction in the paintball shed, Leonard seemed to be more angry that Raj didn't tell him about Priya leaving than what happened between Raj and Penny.

[Nogravitasatall]

Occam, the following comment isn't on you, the quote I'm using is just such a great lead in for my point, which is: How well does this illustrate the point that you can't depend on the taping report for the final determination on how the episode turns out?

Hi Tensor, i could see it was funny but my horror at the comedy playing off the suffering of a minor and the entanglement of a (bad) parent in the Penny and Leonard sexual relationship sort of cruelled the last part for me. I had no doubts about this NOT being a hot button issue for L/P. They sprinkled a lot of sugar on this one, with all the nookie and that nightie, but Beverly is like a rock in the channel and Penny has to be the pilot to help Leonard navigate around her. I think that will happen, because Penny has seen close up what Beverly does to him. Penny might have a blind spot but I'd hope not. Leonard will always be intensely vulnerable to his mum, and for me, I don't know how they can get past this with the character. Personally I would find it hard to believe they could, as they have dug a deep hole.

It is an incredibly rewarding episode if I can walk myself past the deeper tragedy.

[ArmyGirl]

Thanks for posting this Tensor. I just thought of this and was about to posted this too.  All evidence points to Raj knowing and him not telling Leonard or anyone else.

Edited October 12, 2013 by ArmyGirl

[arash]

i really want priya back! penny's reaction should be exciting!

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk 4

[JonRS92]

How long is this issue of Raj/Penny/Priya/Leonard going to go on.  All of that was three years ago now, when doe sit get put to rest?

 

 

I think part of the problem is that there are new people discovering the show and asking the same questions we've already asked and debated.

 

New viewers and 2 more seasons of character development can provide new perspectives on old issues.  Whether the same arguments are coming back around or not, I don't have a problem going back and revisiting an old issue. 

 

My point of view on this seems to be different than yours and @hammerman. To be begin with Raj crush on Bernie was just totally wrong. His hoping for Bernie's rejection of Howard was the low of the low. The Penny/Raj/lLeonard/Priya was different IMO.First of all this could be my memory but I don't necesarily for sure remember Raj knowing that Priya was going back to India. Also I understand that everyone was an adult but originally Raj didn't like the idea of Priya/Leonard. Leonard should have saw things were over when Sheldon proved (to me with no previous knowledge) thta Priya was too embarassed to tell her parents about their relationship. Still after she moved he tried to stay a couple with Priya. Back to Raj, I don't think he necessarily knew that both L/P wanted to get back together until that "fateful" night when Penny admitted she screwed up.Raj I don't think planned on getting drunk with Penny and taking advantage. But given the opportunity he did. I don't think he knew what was going on with Leonard and Priya. Raj even admitted later in the cafe he was Penny's number 2 and thus Leonard would of been her first choice. Penny's biggest fault was she was totally passed out drunk and she needed to tell Leonard how she felt about him.

Well, Priya was staying with Raj to say that he didn't know she'd be leaving is a pretty big stretch.  I do agree with you, however, that Leonard should have seen the writing on the wall when she caved to Sheldon so quickly.  Back to Raj again, even if he didn't know about Leonard still having feelings for Penny (which kind of gets debunked in 6.1 when he is talking to both of them about their feelings), he knew that Penny still had feelings for Leonard when she flat out told him.  At that point neither were drunk enough to not understand what was going on.  All Raj had to do was be a good friend and tell her what was about to happen.  And Raj was always getting drunk at that point in the series so to say that it was unintentional I think is another stretch.  So, yes, I think he knew exactly what he was doing and knew exactly what was going on with Leonard and Priya.  He made his choice and it was a despicable one.

Leonard seemed to know that Raj knew about Priya going back. From his reaction in the paintball shed, Leonard seemed to be more angry that Raj didn't tell him about Priya leaving than what happened between Raj and Penny.

 

Probably because the writers were in full-on back-pedaling mode. 

[arash]

guys i have a question i wanted to ask years ago ! what exactly happen between raj and penny ?when raj was explaining i didn't get his point! Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk 4

Edited October 12, 2013 by arash

[Nogravitasatall]

guys i have a question i wanted to ask years ago ! what exactly happen between raj and penny ?when raj was explaining i didn't get his point!

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk 4

He prematurely ejaculated when she was handling his penis to roll on the condom so they only engaged in foreplay not sex. This is I what tell my kids when they ask. Lol. Lucky they are are in their teens when they think to ask. Heheheh Edited October 12, 2013 by Nogravitasatall