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Leonard And Penny Season 7 *spoiler* Discussion Thread


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skull,

I could buy that, except for he was stone cold sober when he was happy about the idea of Howard and Bernadette breaking up. And, he was sober when he went to the Cheesecake factory to talk to Bernadette (that he subsequently got drunk (to ease his guilt no less, so he knew it was wrong and continued)had nothing to do with him getting there sober). And two of his fantasies about Bernadette were in the School Cafeteria, again, when sober. He was also sober when he wanted all the info from Priya. So, it's not just when he was drinking.

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3ku11, Raj made me so angry once I started a thread to complain about him. Not at all because of Penny, but because he has treated all the women he has interacted with as objects most of the time. He has deep problems. He and Howard were very disturbing, Raj maybe more so than Howard, because at least Howard was visibly a creep in S1-3 and Raj looks like a nice quiet guy. THEY always look like nice quiet guys, who never make trouble and keep to themselves. Everytime he has talked about his relationship with women its been to discuss how he will eventually get his leg over. Its not until s6 he actually engaged with women. And even then he was horrible on girls night to Amy and horrible about Alex earlier in S6. Kripke now has the job of being more disgusting as shown with the jibe about the toys. And Stuart is having a moderating effect. Also, Penny and Leonard like Raj, so maybe he is worth hanging in for. But for a while there I did not like him, again, not because of Penny.

At least Kripke know's he's a jerk Raj is completely oblivious at time's, although I don't think it's in his nature to be a jerk, I think his decision's and choice's and how he converses with women in particular. I think he is getting better, the writer's are clearly lacking character development with him though, as I cannot remember a time he did something or made a decision that diddn't involve himself or objectifying a women for his own gain, I felt Lucy was a start, and his speech in the comic book store about how it's okay to be lonely show's at heart he's an ok guy, use that term loosely, but if Raj continues to be selfish then I don't know what his friend's well do.

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Not defending Raj or any of his action's at all, but all of the occasions he is acted out of place, or deceived any of his friend's is when he has been drinking. In S2  when he took Penny to his People Magazine launch he was drunk, and we all know then Raj can only talk to Penny when he is drinking, when he drink's it's almost like he turns into Super Raj Abilities: Cool, Suave, not getting red in the face when I talk to Penny haha, so it's almost like his alter ego. I remember in the morning he apologized, I feel Raj being from another culture, is probably used to another way when it come's to cultural differences, the way people converse, I also think the pressure from his parent's in getting married and the fact they probably want to arrange a marrage for him, they tried last season has always been a factor to why he can be a jerk at time's. As for Howard's statement I remember that in S4, they were hanging out because they were trying to avoid Amy haha, Howard may have been over exagerrating, but Raj generally can be condesending in his nature, but when he drink's he's almost like Super Raj on Morphine lol. And of course with Penny, Penny was obviousley intoxicated and blacked out, if Raj acted more responsibly, and acted with some common courtesey he would of seen in his drunken state Penny was vulnrable.

 

I mean if I was Raj and Penny was sober, I would run it by Leonard first, because a true friend does not take advantage of his girl, because let's be honest Penny even when he was with Priya she had been his girl from the pilot, I don't blame Raj, although I still probably woulden't regardless of the circumstances, their's more to Penny then just her obvious physical beauty. Raj you could argue 1. Wanted to get back at Leonard for his relationship with Priya and 2. You forget up till the finalie of S4 Raj was really lonely he went on a few disaster date's, I feel deep down although Raj does care about his friend's he has a wicked streak that can come out when drinking, look at how he was with Summer Glau on the train, look at ADD S3, the way he was making fun of Howard for sleeping with his cousin lol. So I can understand people's pre-disposition to Raj is too feel he is a jerk and not a true friend. Because the S4 finalie had no real lasting effect on the show or the characters, it was a one time thing the writer's did for a plot device, it was kinda last moment shock value for a finalie, to add hype and buzz over the summer. It happened in the last moment's of the season, from the writer's stand point Penny was only in that position because of her break up with Leonard and Leonard's relationship with Priya, so Raj and Penny bonded or had that fact they both despised that relationship, the fact they diddn't go all the way and diddn't actually have sex is an important factor too me, it tell's me it was pretty much over when Raj you know what.

 

So when they woke up the next morning they pretty were back to normal, and status quo resumed, I mean Penny didn't even know who was in bed with her, that show's you how intoxicated she was and the fact she blacked out, this is also tell's me she was not in a great emotional state, I mean she even told Raj when they were drinking she woulden't sleep with him because they are friend's, so that obviousley implie's regardless of her state of mind, and the place she was in her life at that point she still had a sense of depth perception. To me Raj should of been more responsible, but like I said once he drink's he turns from well meaning Raj, to Super Raj with a wicked streak, but to me it happened in the final second's of a finalie for shock value, and they pretty much nearly threw the show under the bus, but it was never meant to be anything serious or show defining, it was meant to be a wam bam for the sake of a shock value finalie, a plot device to add hype over the summer. Like I have said before the writer's learnt from this experience, they really tested the water's with that finalie, it's three year's since, in a seven season show comparitively speaking Lenny are back on track, Sheldon and Amy are well Sheldon and Amy haha, Howard and Bernadette are married, and Raj is still lonely, so till me how now is any different then any other time in the show.

 

First off I love reading your posts, always very well done!

 

However, to blame alcohol for Raj's character flaws is being very easy on the character. An enabler if you will. For instance, when he came the next morning to apologize to Penny for being such a jerk when he had taken her to the People's dinner he was perfectly sober. What happened when Penny turned around and closed the door? It was first thing in the morning, Penny was still in her pajamas, Leonard just saw them hug. Raj turned to him and smiled and gave him the thumbs up! Leonard went back into his apartment and threw himself on the couch. Raj is a grade A jerk! Drunk or sober IMO. And regarding the Summer Glau episode, he was drinking nonalcoholic beer. So he was perfectly sober at the time.

 

Also, I don't buy the cultural differences theory either. He uses whatever he can to his advantage. He's from another culture until he wants to eat a Big Mac!

 

Yes, it has been three years but "once bitten, twice shy"! You may move on but you never forget! :)

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skull,

I could buy that, except for he was stone cold sober when he was happy about the idea of Howard and Bernadette breaking up. And, he was sober when he went to the Cheesecake factory to talk to Bernadette (that he subsequently got drunk (to ease his guilt no less, so he knew it was wrong and continued)had nothing to do with him getting there sober). And two of his fantasies about Bernadette were in the School Cafeteria, again, when sober. He was also sober when he wanted all the info from Priya. So, it's not just when he was drinking.

True good point he was sober if all of those situations, but you could argue dreaming about your friend's girlfriend is not as bad as actually doing anything about it, like I said Raj is really lonely so I Think it was a harmless crush, but then again he was hoping they would break up, when Bernadette proposed I remember he let out a Nooooo lol, so his intention's at time's can be very selfish and self involved, and he look's at his relationship's through his own vantage point and how they can alter his life, he hasen't really shown any evidence to suggest he consider's the consequence's through anyone else's point of views. My point was when he was drunk was when he physically did something selfish, so it amp's up his selfish side, but it only happened once or twice, not enough to suggest he is an evil little man as Leonard put it.

 

Not defending Raj or any of his action's at all, but all of the occasions he is acted out of place, or deceived any of his friend's is when he has been drinking. In S2  when he took Penny to his People Magazine launch he was drunk, and we all know then Raj can only talk to Penny when he is drinking, when he drink's it's almost like he turns into Super Raj Abilities: Cool, Suave, not getting red in the face when I talk to Penny haha, so it's almost like his alter ego. I remember in the morning he apologized, I feel Raj being from another culture, is probably used to another way when it come's to cultural differences, the way people converse, I also think the pressure from his parent's in getting married and the fact they probably want to arrange a marrage for him, they tried last season has always been a factor to why he can be a jerk at time's. As for Howard's statement I remember that in S4, they were hanging out because they were trying to avoid Amy haha, Howard may have been over exagerrating, but Raj generally can be condesending in his nature, but when he drink's he's almost like Super Raj on Morphine lol. And of course with Penny, Penny was obviousley intoxicated and blacked out, if Raj acted more responsibly, and acted with some common courtesey he would of seen in his drunken state Penny was vulnrable.

 

I mean if I was Raj and Penny was sober, I would run it by Leonard first, because a true friend does not take advantage of his girl, because let's be honest Penny even when he was with Priya she had been his girl from the pilot, I don't blame Raj, although I still probably woulden't regardless of the circumstances, their's more to Penny then just her obvious physical beauty. Raj you could argue 1. Wanted to get back at Leonard for his relationship with Priya and 2. You forget up till the finalie of S4 Raj was really lonely he went on a few disaster date's, I feel deep down although Raj does care about his friend's he has a wicked streak that can come out when drinking, look at how he was with Summer Glau on the train, look at ADD S3, the way he was making fun of Howard for sleeping with his cousin lol. So I can understand people's pre-disposition to Raj is too feel he is a jerk and not a true friend. Because the S4 finalie had no real lasting effect on the show or the characters, it was a one time thing the writer's did for a plot device, it was kinda last moment shock value for a finalie, to add hype and buzz over the summer. It happened in the last moment's of the season, from the writer's stand point Penny was only in that position because of her break up with Leonard and Leonard's relationship with Priya, so Raj and Penny bonded or had that fact they both despised that relationship, the fact they diddn't go all the way and diddn't actually have sex is an important factor too me, it tell's me it was pretty much over when Raj you know what.

 

So when they woke up the next morning they pretty were back to normal, and status quo resumed, I mean Penny didn't even know who was in bed with her, that show's you how intoxicated she was and the fact she blacked out, this is also tell's me she was not in a great emotional state, I mean she even told Raj when they were drinking she woulden't sleep with him because they are friend's, so that obviousley implie's regardless of her state of mind, and the place she was in her life at that point she still had a sense of depth perception. To me Raj should of been more responsible, but like I said once he drink's he turns from well meaning Raj, to Super Raj with a wicked streak, but to me it happened in the final second's of a finalie for shock value, and they pretty much nearly threw the show under the bus, but it was never meant to be anything serious or show defining, it was meant to be a wam bam for the sake of a shock value finalie, a plot device to add hype over the summer. Like I have said before the writer's learnt from this experience, they really tested the water's with that finalie, it's three year's since, in a seven season show comparitively speaking Lenny are back on track, Sheldon and Amy are well Sheldon and Amy haha, Howard and Bernadette are married, and Raj is still lonely, so till me how now is any different then any other time in the show.

 

First off I love reading your posts, always very well done!

 

However, to blame alcohol for Raj's character flaws is being very easy on the character. An enabler if you will. For instance, when he came the next morning to apologize to Penny for being such a jerk when he had taken her to the People's dinner he was perfectly sober. What happened when Penny turned around and closed the door? It was first thing in the morning, Penny was still in her pajamas, Leonard just saw them hug. Raj turned to him and smiled and gave him the thumbs up! Leonard went back into his apartment and threw himself on the couch. Raj is a grade A jerk! Drunk or sober IMO. And regarding the Summer Glau episode, he was drinking nonalcoholic beer. So he was perfectly sober at the time.

 

Also, I don't buy the cultural differences theory either. He uses whatever he can to his advantage. He's from another culture until he wants to eat a Big Mac!

 

Yes, it has been three years but "once bitten, twice shy"! You may move on but you never forget! :)

 

Thanks I try haha, but Yeah true but remember Raj thought he was drinking alcahol with Summer Glau, as for the morning after the People Magazine, I don't think Raj's thumb's up was done to antaganise Leonard in anyway, I just think it's the way his character is, he saw Leonard in the morning and prob his way of saying good morning, also maybe he did the thumbs up to make it clear to Leonard everything is okay, I was just saying good morning that was my take on it.

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True good point he was sober if all of those situations, but you could argue dreaming about your friend's girlfriend is not as bad as actually doing anything about it, like I said Raj is really lonely so I Think it was a harmless crush, but then again he was hoping they would break up, when Bernadette proposed I remember he let out a Nooooo lol, so his intention's at time's can be very selfish and self involved, and he look's at his relationship's through his own vantage point and how they can alter his life, he hasen't really shown any evidence to suggest he consider's the consequence's through anyone else's point of views. My point was when he was drunk was when he physically did something selfish, so it amp's up his selfish side, but it only happened once or twice, not enough to suggest he is an evil little man as Leonard put it.

Thanks I try haha, but Yeah true but remember Raj thought he was drinking alcahol with Summer Glau, as for the morning after the People Magazine, I don't think Raj's thumb's up was done to antaganise Leonard in anyway, I just think it's the way his character is, he saw Leonard in the morning and prob his way of saying good morning, also maybe he did the thumbs up to make it clear to Leonard everything is okay, I was just saying good morning that was my take on it.

 

With all due respect, if you really believe that was what Raj was saying to Leonard then 1.) Clearly Leonard didn't see it that way and 2.) I have some land in Fukushmia, Japan that I would like to talk to you about selling to you! :)

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True good point he was sober if all of those situations, but you could argue dreaming about your friend's girlfriend is not as bad as actually doing anything about it, like I said Raj is really lonely so I Think it was a harmless crush, but then again he was hoping they would break up, when Bernadette proposed I remember he let out a Nooooo lol, so his intention's at time's can be very selfish and self involved, and he look's at his relationship's through his own vantage point and how they can alter his life, he hasen't really shown any evidence to suggest he consider's the consequence's through anyone else's point of views. My point was when he was drunk was when he physically did something selfish, so it amp's up his selfish side, but it only happened once or twice, not enough to suggest he is an evil little man as Leonard put it.

Thanks I try haha, but Yeah true but remember Raj thought he was drinking alcahol with Summer Glau, as for the morning after the People Magazine, I don't think Raj's thumb's up was done to antaganise Leonard in anyway, I just think it's the way his character is, he saw Leonard in the morning and prob his way of saying good morning, also maybe he did the thumbs up to make it clear to Leonard everything is okay, I was just saying good morning that was my take on it.

 

I love your posts and insight and though I think I agree with you more than disagree most of the time, I think you are being way to easy on Raj.  Raj did the same thing to Leonard that Leonard did to Kurt in the Middle Earth paradigm.  Raj was implying he got some.  He just can't help himself from being a jerk a lot of time.  Even with intending to hit on his best friend's girlfriend (he probably made that choice sober and got drunk to talk to her) he was a jerk when he got the magazine article (sober) and he's rich but always stuck his friends with the tab.  Given what Penny knew of him prior to the season 4 finale, one has to wonder why she ever found him attractive enough to sleep with to begin with.  If I could be a character in the show for one day that's what I'd ask her :)  He's getting better, but for awhile there he was the devil pure and simple. 

Edited by JonRS92

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Speaking of seeing them sleep together, I think one of the cutest scenes in the show was Sheldon getting up to find Penny dancing in the Kitchen making French Toast.  I would like something like that again.

One of my favorite scenes as well. Seeing her dance in Leonard's shirt while making french toast and shaking her topknot was classic!

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No, neither has moved in with the other, and it wouldn't surprise me if they take a while to officially move in together. If you think about it, with Leonard and Penny they don't really need to take that step, most relationships would have moved to cohabitation at this point purely for convenience, but they don't need to worry about that, all they need to keep at each others apartments is a bathrobe. They essentially own the fourth floor, so it is more like they have separate bedrooms in one really big apartment.

I agree completely. There is hardly any need for them to move in together. In "The Spoiler Alert Segmentation", it was more about Leonard escaping Sheldon than increasing the intimacy with Penny. Leonard didn't see it as a big step, and stated so. Penny was the one that saw him officially moving in as a major escalation that she wasn't ready for. I suspect after "The Tangible Affection Proof" and Penny's increasing comfort in the relationship, Leonard probably is basically in her apartment when she is. Given that he works in the day, and she works mostly at night, it makes sense that he's with her when they are both home, and with Sheldon and the guys when she is working.

Edited by hamerman55
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When it come's down to it when it come's to living together, I hope the writer's consider Penny moving in with Leonard and Sheldon when it get's to that point, I know everyone has reservations about that. A lot of people feel the writer's need to progress Sheldon's relationship with Amy and his hold on Leonard in term's of living arrangement's. But I think their are a lot of comedy to get out of the three of them living together again like in S3, I remember when Sheldon and Leonard got robbed, that was a classic episode of TBBT, and Howard had a protective system instored, and Sheldon got caught in the barb wire, and also when Sheldon was trying positive behavoural reinforcemnt technique on Penny, those were all classic TBBT moment's. So I know a lot of people would prefer Leonard and Penny to live alone and I would too, but the premise is Leonard and Sheldon living across from Penny, so unless the writer's change that I cannot see that happening, so I would be fine with the three of them living together again, regardless if Sheldon is the third wheel again, he has Amy so it shoulden't be like that. Although I agree their is no need to move in together to increase their physical and emotional intimacy, I mean like above said Leonard work's through out the day, Penny mostly work's through out to the night, so they basically are together when they are at home. Leonard basically stay's over at Penny's most of the time. In the Spoiler Alert Segmentation episode, I remember Leonard was making his case that their is no real reason why they shoulden't live together, Penny just simply wasen't ready for them to live together, since then they have increased their physical intimacy, but I think Penny is just used to having her own space she live's alone she is very independent where as Leonard has lived with Sheldon for so many year's it's not a big deal to him, but she was willing to compromise her intimacy issues to make Leonard happy, so she at least is not againgst the idea, so maybe further down the track the writer's well get their, tbh though before an engagement they need to be at least living together.

Edited by 3ku11
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I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post so I only quote this bit : 

 

Leonard is a most excellent friend but he has shown he was not opposed to disregarding the "bro code" when necessary : he slept with Raj's sister even though he knew Raj did not want it to happen; he slept with Priya even though he had a deal with Howard about not hitting on her; and he went behind Sheldon's back to give Penny Mary's phone number. 

 

What Leonard was doing in The Raiders Minimization was wrong (he even admitted it) so he could not demand his friend to cover for him. Similarly, Raj's expectation of control over whom his sister slept with was utterly ridiculous so no man on Earth, Leonard included, was duty bound to abide by Dr Koothrappali's wishes; and Howard and Leonard had no right to impose some form of selective embargo on Priya's sexuality and/or romantic life without consulting her so their pinky-sworn "pact" was null and void. As for Dr Hofstadter giving Penny Sheldon's kryptonite, it was a sound decision based on a justifiable desire to put an end to the madness. 

 

With all due respect, any breach of the "bro code" is a good thing in my eyes. Loyalty to one's friends is a fantastic and very respectable bound indeed, as long as it does not contradict the basic rules of logic and/or decency. But the "bro code", whose first article is "Bros before Hoes"... I am sorry to say but that is, in Beverly's immortal word, "yikes" (not in a good way). And no amount of Neil Patrick Harris loveliness can change that :)

 

PS For the sake of clarity and impartiality, allow me to add that if there is such a thing as the "sis code" and its opening line is something like "Chicks before Pr*cks", it is just as brain-meltingly "yikes" (still not in a good way). 

 

I do agree with most of what you said. To me though the Leonard/Priya relationship never should of happened. In that case Leonard and Priya should of known better. It just causes an awkward situation for the friend/sibling(Raj). Ironically though people seem to be more upset with Raj/Penny than Leonard/Priya. That's something I never understood.

We don't know that Leonard hit on Priya (the first two times) the only times we've seen Leonard 'hit on' a woman was when he asked Leslie out (season 1 episode 3), Penny out, (season 1 episode 17, season 5 episode 13) and the third time he hooked up with Priya (season 4 episode 16). Every other time he's been involved with a woman she's been the aggressor (we don't know about the French Phd. but it's a fair guess). And as has been pointed out, the only one who has a say about who Priya dates is Priya.

Edited by eirwinrommel

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We don't know that Leonard hit on Priya (the first two times) the only times we've seen Leonard 'hit on' a woman was when he asked Leslie out (season 1 episode 3), Penny out, (season 1 episode 17, season 5 episode 13) and the third time he hooked up with Priya (season 4 episode 16). Every other time he's been involved with a woman she's been the aggressor (we don't know about the French Phd. but it's a fair guess). And as has been pointed out, the only one who has a say about who Priya dates is Priya.

Your forgetting Stephanie in Season 2 you could argue that was nuetral though, Penny is the only women who he has choosen to be with through desire beyond any external factor's from what I have seen. IMO Leonard choosing to be with Priya is out of Raj's hand's, yeah their is the bro code but their's also Raj is not Priya's guardian or keeper, or Leonard's or anyone, they are both consenting adult's who have the ability to make their own decisions and deal with the consequence's if their are any. 

Edited by 3ku11

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The Leonard/Priya relationship should indeed never have happened for they could not have been more ill-suited for each other. In that regard, it was a mistake. However, it was Leonard's and Priya's right to make that mistake, regardless of Raj's feelings about the whole thing. And I believe the same logic applies to the Raj/Penny hookup : it was a stupid mistake both participants had the right to make, independently of Leonard. 

 

As for the difference in the fans' reactions to both events, well, Leonard is the hero and Penny is not so...

But it is all behind them now : Raj and Leonard are great friends, Penny and Raj like and support each other very much, Leonard and Penny are as solid as they have ever been. It is all good !

 

I mostly agree with your posts and usually am in awe of the clarity with which you can express your feelings and thoughts. However , this time, I disagree with you. As you've said Raj had no right to even suggest that Leonard not date Priya because he's Priya's brother, and therefore there are no romantic attachments. In the case of Raj and Penny, Raj knew that Leonard still loved Penny, and Penny still loved Leonard, so there was romantic attachment, and even if no one had any right to demand anything from anyone, it was wrong for Raj to act the way he did for the previously stated reasons. If you add to that the fact that Penny was so drunk that she couldn't even remember what had happened, that makes Raj's act even worse, because he was plainly taking advantage of her. I think those are the reasons for the fans' negative reaction to that event.

Edited by Carlos
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If you add to that the fact that Penny was so drunk that she couldn't even remember what had happened, that makes Raj's act even worse, because he was plainly taking advantage of her. I think those are the reasons for the fans' negative reaction to that event.

I'm one of those that isn't bothered by this, so take this as you will. But, we cannot assume Raj was taking advantage of Penny. It was never stated who, if anyone, initiated the acts. And, if Raj was taking advantage of Penny when she was drunk, was Leonard taking advantage of Penny in "The Lunar Excitation", when she was drunk? After all Penny regretted her reaction after both encounters.

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I just struck me that while we've accepted the guys lack of normal socialization due to their inelligence and concomitant nerdiness, we seem to expect in the specific case of The Leonard/Penny/Raj/Priya debacle that they are fully socialized in the "bro code". I suspect they may be aware that soemthing like that exists, but quite frankly, it is more of the sort of things that Penny's old boyfriends would know more about. These guys did not play sports on any level, and were not accepted in the frat boy/team sports fraternity. They were picked on by these sort of guys, and would have only a passing knowledge of the informal rules or codes of such groups.

I would also maintain that the idea of Leonard effectively hitting on a gorgeous, worldly woman like Priya is laughable. I'll bet it was more like the first encounter we saw between Leonard and Priya. She arranged a situation where they we alone, and then grabbed him. I can't remember a scene where Leonard hit on anybody. The first time he asked Penny out was coming on the heels of multiple times that Penny made it clear that she really liked him and would be receptive ( unconsciously on her part, but there are multiple times in the first season where she unwittingly expressed a serious interest in him. She was even a little put out when Leonard and Leslie had their first tryst). The second time he hit on Penny was basically the same scenario. If he hadn't caved into his insecurities in not a date date, he could have likely rekindled the relationship that night. The PTB just wanted that to happen on the 100th episode, so they delayed it a bit.

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I'm one of those that isn't bothered by this, so take this as you will. But, we cannot assume Raj was taking advantage of Penny. It was never stated who, if anyone, initiated the acts. And, if Raj was taking advantage of Penny when she was drunk, was Leonard taking advantage of Penny in "The Lunar Excitation", when she was drunk? After all Penny regretted her reaction after both encounters.

 

Personally, I don't think those were either of their finest hours. I guess I'm just old school, but you don't take advantage of a drunk woman. Period. I don't care who initiated it, it's just not something a stand-up guy does.

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I'm one of those that isn't bothered by this, so take this as you will. But, we cannot assume Raj was taking advantage of Penny. It was never stated who, if anyone, initiated the acts. And, if Raj was taking advantage of Penny when she was drunk, was Leonard taking advantage of Penny in "The Lunar Excitation", when she was drunk? After all Penny regretted her reaction after both encounters.

 

I don't think it matters if Penny initiated the actions.  She told him while still coherent enough to make a rational choice that she did not want to sleep with him.  That should be the end of the story on that.  You could argue that we don't know exactly how drunk Raj was, but I think it has been established that he was nowhere near as drunk as Penny given that he remembered everything the next day.  It seems as if Raj was the less drunk of the two and the only one to really understand what was going on.  He knew that Penny didn't want to sleep with him and he tried to do it anyway.  It just seems to me that it doesn't matter if Penny, while even more drunk, initiated it, he already knew she didn't want to.

 

As for Leonard taking advantage of Penny while she was drunk, I don't know that it is the same thing.  Leonard did have some cause to think she was acting on legit desire.  I think we can agree if she had been sober she probably would not have slept with him, but Penny never said out loud anything to show Leonard that she wasn't doing exactly what she wanted to do.  With Raj you have her on record saying that she didn't want do to do it.  With Leonard we don't have that.  Remember back to season 1 when Leonard had reason to think her advances were just the alcohol motivating her (Middle Earth) he backed off.  I may get attacked for this one, but, if anything, I think it more likely that Penny took advantage of Leonard that night.  She knew she just wanted sex and knew that Leonard was not the fling kind of guy.  She did it anyway because she was drunk.  Now I am sure you are thinking that Leonard did try exactly that after Penny with Leslie and then Penny again.  Both turned him down.  Raj didn't turn Penny down even though he knew she didn't really want to do anything.

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I don't think it matters if Penny initiated the actions.  She told him while still coherent enough to make a rational choice that she did not want to sleep with him.  That should be the end of the story on that.  You could argue that we don't know exactly how drunk Raj was, but I think it has been established that he was nowhere near as drunk as Penny given that he remembered everything the next day.

But, is "no where near" the same as having enough faculties to remember what was she said, process that and then stop? Especially if she initiated it and was already kissing on him.(see below)

 

It seems as if Raj was the less drunk of the two and the only one to really understand what was going on.  He knew that Penny didn't want to sleep with him and he tried to do it anyway.  It just seems to me that it doesn't matter if Penny, while even more drunk, initiated it, he already knew she didn't want to.

Again, less drunk doesn't mean able to process enough information to fully understand what is going on.

 

As for Leonard taking advantage of Penny while she was drunk, I don't know that it is the same thing.  Leonard did have some cause to think she was acting on legit desire.  I think we can agree if she had been sober she probably would not have slept with him, but Penny never said out loud anything to show Leonard that she wasn't doing exactly what she wanted to do.  With Raj you have her on record saying that she didn't want do to do it.

The difference is that Leonard was sober, Raj wasn't. In a weird way, that excuses Raj more than Leonard (don't write in folks, see below*) "Some cause", for Leonard is simply not enough to override that case that she was drunk, AND HE KNEW AND FULLY REALIZED IT, and as a result, she may not have fully meant it. I could see your point, if they were both sober or both drunk, that wasn't the case.

 

With Leonard we don't have that.  Remember back to season 1 when Leonard had reason to think her advances were just the alcohol motivating her (Middle Earth) he backed off.  I may get attacked for this one, but, if anything, I think it more likely that Penny took advantage of Leonard that night.  She knew she just wanted sex and knew that Leonard was not the fling kind of guy.  She did it anyway because she was drunk. Now I am sure you are thinking that Leonard did try exactly that after Penny with Leslie and then Penny again.  Both turned him down.  Raj didn't turn Penny down even though he knew she didn't really want to do anything.

Penny and Leslie were sober, Raj wasn't.

*Before the letters and comments of complaint start, I in no way think that being drunk excuses Raj or lets Raj off the hook, even if Penny initiated. My argument here is strictly based on the flack Raj gets for taking advantage of Penny, when drunk, while Leonard (usually) gets no flack for doing the same thing, while sober. Also, for informational purposes, my actual opinion may not necessarily be the same as my argument here.

Personally, I don't think those were either of their finest hours. I guess I'm just old school, but you don't take advantage of a drunk woman. Period. I don't care who initiated it, it's just not something a stand-up guy does.

I fully agree with you, I was just pointing out how a drunk Raj is criticized (rightfully I think) and a sober Leonard is generally not, for the same thing.

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I think they give Leonard a break because he and Penny had been in a relationship, she was still clearly coherent, even if she had been drinking, and she expressed regrets, sort of, about the end of her relationship with Leonard. Raj on the other hand had no expectation that Penny would have sex with him if she were sober, she was blackout drunk, and he knew that she still had feelings for his friend.

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I don't know about that.  Raj thought that they were "in love" after it happened, and expected her to want to go out with him again (sober or not).  He also hit on Bernadette even though Howard was still there.  Raj gets very lonely and seems to put his mates aside for the girl.  Both Leonard and Raj should know better.  I know I'd personally be more upset if someone took advantage of me and they were sober than if they were to do it drunkenly.

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But, is "no where near" the same as having enough faculties to remember what was she said, process that and then stop? Especially if she initiated it and was already kissing on him.(see below)

 

Again, less drunk doesn't mean able to process enough information to fully understand what is going on.

I don't know for certain, but if he remembered everything that happened in the bedroom after (we are led to believe) more alcohol, I don't think we can just assume he didn't remember what Penny told him while he was less drunk. If you want to argue that Raj being more drunk inhibited his decision-making, I don't necessarily agree. With everything we have seen with Raj when drunk, he makes an ass out of himself, but I've never seen him regret waking up with women. Notice also, that Raj didn't apologize for what happened with Penny, he apologized for misunderstanding after. You have to admit that either he is very, very stupid or he just doesn't want to see the truth. I think you have to look at all the evidence both before and after the incident.

1. He had every reason to know Priya was leaving and that her time with Leonard was rapidly coming to an end. If he hated seeing Leonard with his sister

so much, Penny was the perfect way to split them up for good on top of everything else.

2. Penny told him that she regretted breaking up with Leonard and that she did not want to sleep with him.

3. He remembered everything the next day insinuating that he wasn't too drunk to realize what was happening.

4. He had every reason to know that Priya didn't really care for Leonard beyond the sex and the rebellion.

5. He admitted in 6.1 that he knew how both Leonard and Penny felt about each other.

6. He showed in the past with Bernie that friendship means nothing when the possibility of him getting a girl is concerned. Alcohol was not a factor.

All of that (I know you don't always care for generalizations, but deductive reasoning can be useful here) seems to show a Raj who doesn't always care about friendship, who knew what was going on with Penny but didn't care because here was his one and only shot to sleep with her and he took it.

 

The difference is that Leonard was sober, Raj wasn't. In a weird way, that excuses Raj more than Leonard (don't write in folks, see below*) "Some cause", for Leonard is simply not enough to override that case that she was drunk, AND HE KNEW AND FULLY REALIZED IT, and as a result, she may not have fully meant it. I could see your point, if they were both sober or both drunk, that wasn't the case.

 

Penny and Leslie were sober, Raj wasn't.

I fully understand where you are coming from on this one as it pertains to Leonard taking advantage of the drunk Penny. The only thing I would question about this is this: When you first saw the episode, did you know that Penny had not decided to try again with Leonard? Did we know all she wanted was a fling? Sure we know all of that later, but would Leonard have known that? Up to that point, sex with her was the primary indicator that they were in a relationship. Their official pairing did start with sex after all in 3.1. And if I am not mistaken was it not getting drunk that initially made their sex lives better? I could be wrong on that one. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to assume that Leonard thought that sex meant getting back together. He obviously didn't learn his lesson later on at the conference when Penny (insinuated anyway) that the sex was going to be a one time thing even though Leonard assumed it meant they were getting back together.

 

*Before the letters and comments of complaint start, I in no way think that being drunk excuses Raj or lets Raj off the hook, even if Penny initiated. My argument here is strictly based on the flack Raj gets for taking advantage of Penny, when drunk, while Leonard (usually) gets no flack for doing the same thing, while sober. Also, for informational purposes, my actual opinion may not necessarily be the same as my argument here.

I fully agree with you, I was just pointing out how a drunk Raj is criticized (rightfully I think) and a sober Leonard is generally not, for the same thing.

One last thing I would say to the differences between Leonard and Raj. First, Raj had knowledge that Penny really didn't want to sleep with him where as Leonard did not have that same certain knowledge. Second, Leonard had been in a relationship with Penny while Raj had not. Leonard assuming that Penny was being legit makes more sense that Raj believing it. Finally, Penny appears to have remembered her night with Leonard. Fell free to correct me on that one if I am wrong.

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Penny also explained to Leonard why she wanted to sleep with him before she dragged him off to his bedroom.  She also told Sheldon she was going to have her way with Leonard.  Plus the only reason she said it was a mistake later, was because she did something, deep down inside she wanted to do, but when sober she knew she shouldn't have done because she knew she would hurt him.  I really think during their breakup, between season 3 and 5, that the writers could have made them be friends-with-benefits and it still would have worked between them without even using Priya in the show.  They still could have had a talk and became officially a couple again in episode 100.

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