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Carlos, I think the reason Shamy fans are not thrilled with a Amy/Howard pairing in an AU is because we have been given so little in reality.   Lenny fans are more easily accepting Penny/Stuart because Lenny have been through the ringer and still remain together.  They kiss, they make love, they have said ILY several times to each other.   But look at Shamy.   We have yet to have a real kiss (sure there was Amy's drunk kiss before they were officially a couple and her quick nano-second peck when she got the tiara, but let's face it, those are not really the same thing as one from Sheldon's heart).   We have not had any ILY and are far, far, far away from any sexual encounter.   So to put Amy in a pairing before we have seen any real movement between them as a couple is disturbing to Shamy fans.   We get it is an AU and all, but that would only work if you had confidence that the love was flowing both directions from your couple.  We still have not had any real confirmation from Sheldon on his feelings.  We know he is emotionally attached to Amy, but there is still question whether both could be permanently happy if Sheldon can't initiate or participate in any physical intimacy.   Heck we haven't even had him initiate a hug with her (yet he has had no problem doing so with others).   So it is disturbing to think she could be paired and possibly happy with someone in an AU when in reality we know that pairing would never make sense.   Do you see the difference?

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@Carlos I see your point and there are several ways to make an AU episode including one that the characters are completely OOC. Therefore there is a way to have Amy and Howard as a couple in an AU and it could be ok. But the major issue for the shamy is the physical aspect on their relationship and all we are waiting for is a kiss!!!! Nothing more just a little kiss and it seems like a mockery from the writers to see Amy and Howard as a couple before we get to see something with Sheldon even if it is AU!!! I really get it from the point of view of the Lennys it isn't the best the Penny/Stuart thing but in the next episode Leonard and Penny will be as we know them and there will probably be sweet and beautiful scenes. Plus I am one of those you care about Amy most of all and already the writers seem to handle her more than a character that serves a purpose than an independent character. If we have a chance to see an AU it would be better to see Amy as she was at first than something completely different. The s4 Amy would never date Howard because even if she liked the guy with the goofy haircut she never intented to give up the goodies.

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But what's teh point of AU then? Any character can change. Don't think I'm thrilled with the Penny/Stuart pairing, but I can accept it in AU.

 

Because it isn't a full on 100 % AU episode, it's just a day dream of what might have happened without Sheldon?

It's not like without Sheldon all 6 of the others would be completely different ppl with completely different likes and dislikes, hence, Amy would never ever date a Howard.

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Carlos, I think the reason Shamy fans are not thrilled with a Amy/Howard pairing in an AU is because we have been given so little in reality.   Lenny fans are more easily accepting Penny/Stuart because Lenny have been through the ringer and still remain together.  They kiss, they make love, they have said ILY several times to each other.   But look at Shamy.   We have yet to have a real kiss (sure there was Amy's drunk kiss before they were officially a couple and her quick nano-second peck when she got the tiara, but let's face it, those are not really the same thing as one from Sheldon's heart).   We have not had any ILY and are far, far, far away from any sexual encounter.   So to put Amy in a pairing before we have seen any real movement between them as a couple is disturbing to Shamy fans.   We get it is an AU and all, but that would only work if you had confidence that the love was flowing both directions from your couple.  We still have not had any real confirmation from Sheldon on his feelings.  We know he is emotionally attached to Amy, but there is still question whether both could be permanently happy if Sheldon can't initiate or participate in any physical intimacy.   Heck we haven't even had him initiate a hug with her (yet he has had no problem doing so with others).   So it is disturbing to think she could be paired and possibly happy with someone in an AU when in reality we know that pairing would never make sense.   Do you see the difference?

 

Not really. Well I see a difference but not a disturbing one.

Sheldon and Amy are more on par intellectually, they have been making slow progress forward rather than on and off, they have not as intement with anyone else as they have with each other and they seem like a natural fit for each other.

 

I think people should be happy for Sheldon and Amy (characters) as they are and as they are going and not expect them to fit some different mold that does not fit them.

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Amy and Howard get on like a house on fire (in UK so only up to Work Place Ep). I think it's entirely plausible that she'd date him in an AU. She dated Stuart too remember.

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Amy and Howard get on like a house on fire (in UK so only up to Work Place Ep). I think it's entirely plausible that she'd date him in an AU. She dated Stuart too remember.

 

The difference is that Amy had been friends with Sheldon and had developed her gal pal relationships for well over a year before she dated Stuart.   If Sheldon had never existed, then she would have been like the Amy we saw in the coffee shop, closed off to people.  She would have been fulfilling an obligation she made with her mother only, not really open to actually "dating" someone.  I think that fans are forgetting that she evolved a lot once she became social with the group and Sheldon.  The ONLY reason that even happened was because of her immediate connection to SHELDON.   She and Sheldon developed a friendship because of their like-mindedness.  Neither wanted a romantic relationship.  Neither wanted even friendships.   Yet they both saw in each other themselves and something that they liked about the other.   it was unique and special.   If Sheldon had not been around, there is no way Amy would have dated Stuart or Howard other than one time and as an obligation to be met (a business transaction to her, nothing more).   So showing Amy/Howard as a happy couple in an AU or even a couple who are unhappy and have dated for a while in an AU is not realistic.   It defies the history of the character.  

 

The only reason Amy considered Stuart a year later was honestly because Sheldon was awakening romantic feelings in her.  She wanted more with him by then and was not convinced she would get it with him because of her gal pals' comments.   It was like suddenly she had friends and realized it one day and liked it.   Suddenly she was seeing this guy (Sheldon) that she admired and was awakened to the fact that he could actually be someone she could enjoy the rest of her life.   She didn't go looking for it.  It happened organically because of Sheldon and who he is and how much he was like her.   Nothing more and nothing less.   So suddenly acting like she was interested in dating in an AU is ridiculous.  She never was.   She was fulfilling an obligation only by going to the dating site and agreeing to meeting someone.  She would have given the exact same speech she gave Sheldon to Stuart or Howard and both men would have gone running likely because neither would have agreed to her terms.  Even if they agreed to her terms verbally, they would have dumped her later.  But honestly, I don't think the Howard pre-Sheldon would have ever agreed to Amy's terms. I don't even think Stuart would have agreed to such terms, although he may have been willing to give a couple more dates a try mainly because he has such low self-esteem.  

 

Bottom line, it just is defying history of the character.  I get tired of the writers bending Amy to fit story versus keeping her consistent with who she is as a person.  It is fine to show her organically changing because of love and friendships, but quite another to change her whole history to fit a story.

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The difference is that Amy had been friends with Sheldon and had developed her gal pal relationships for well over a year before she dated Stuart.   If Sheldon had never existed, then she would have been like the Amy we saw in the coffee shop, closed off to people.  She would have been fulfilling an obligation she made with her mother only, not really open to actually "dating" someone.  I think that fans are forgetting that she evolved a lot once she became social with the group and Sheldon.  The ONLY reason that even happened was because of her immediate connection to SHELDON.   She and Sheldon developed a friendship because of their like-mindedness.  Neither wanted a romantic relationship.  Neither wanted even friendships.   Yet they both saw in each other themselves and something that they liked about the other.   it was unique and special.   If Sheldon had not been around, there is no way Amy would have dated Stuart or Howard other than one time and as an obligation to be met (a business transaction to her, nothing more).   So showing Amy/Howard as a happy couple in an AU or even a couple who are unhappy and have dated for a while in an AU is not realistic.   It defies the history of the character.  

 

The only reason Amy considered Stuart a year later was honestly because Sheldon was awakening romantic feelings in her.  She wanted more with him by then and was not convinced she would get it with him because of her gal pals' comments.   It was like suddenly she had friends and realized it one day and liked it.   Suddenly she was seeing this guy (Sheldon) that she admired and was awakened to the fact that he could actually be someone she could enjoy the rest of her life.   She didn't go looking for it.  It happened organically because of Sheldon and who he is and how much he was like her.   Nothing more and nothing less.   So suddenly acting like she was interested in dating in an AU is ridiculous.  She never was.   She was fulfilling an obligation only by going to the dating site and agreeing to meeting someone.  She would have given the exact same speech she gave Sheldon to Stuart or Howard and both men would have gone running likely because neither would have agreed to her terms.  Even if they agreed to her terms verbally, they would have dumped her later.  But honestly, I don't think the Howard pre-Sheldon would have ever agreed to Amy's terms. I don't even think Stuart would have agreed to such terms, although he may have been willing to give a couple more dates a try mainly because he has such low self-esteem.  

 

Bottom line, it just is defying history of the character.  I get tired of the writers bending Amy to fit story versus keeping her consistent with who she is as a person.  It is fine to show her organically changing because of love and friendships, but quite another to change her whole history to fit a story.

 

Amen

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Carlos, I think the reason Shamy fans are not thrilled with a Amy/Howard pairing in an AU is because we have been given so little in reality.   Lenny fans are more easily accepting Penny/Stuart because Lenny have been through the ringer and still remain together.  They kiss, they make love, they have said ILY several times to each other.   But look at Shamy.   We have yet to have a real kiss (sure there was Amy's drunk kiss before they were officially a couple and her quick nano-second peck when she got the tiara, but let's face it, those are not really the same thing as one from Sheldon's heart).   We have not had any ILY and are far, far, far away from any sexual encounter.   So to put Amy in a pairing before we have seen any real movement between them as a couple is disturbing to Shamy fans.   We get it is an AU and all, but that would only work if you had confidence that the love was flowing both directions from your couple.  We still have not had any real confirmation from Sheldon on his feelings.  We know he is emotionally attached to Amy, but there is still question whether both could be permanently happy if Sheldon can't initiate or participate in any physical intimacy.   Heck we haven't even had him initiate a hug with her (yet he has had no problem doing so with others).   So it is disturbing to think she could be paired and possibly happy with someone in an AU when in reality we know that pairing would never make sense.   Do you see the difference?

Yes, Star, thinking about it from your point of view and taking into consideration the arguments you present, I do. The problem is that in AU you have to present something different (for it to be AU), and I think a lot will depend on how it is done, so I guess will have to wait and see how it turns out, or at the very least have a proper taping report. That being said (and myself not being a Shamy) I have to say that I see Sheldon and Amy in a much better place than the one you see them at. While you can concentrate on all the things that haven't happened between them, I have to say that I see them more and more like the ONLY option for one another. I don't think either of them is willing to go back to what life was before they met each other, and whether they say it aloud or not, they need each other.

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I can't speak for all the Shamy fans, but, personally I would have no issue with Amy being physical with another character in an AU ep that is something like "What would it be if all characters swapped personalities?" or "What would it be like if all the characters as they are now swapped partners?". The reason I wouldn't like it at all in this particular AU is because the AU is meant to be about what life for the characters would be like if they had never met Sheldon. Under these premises, IMO, it makes no sense that Amy would even want a relationship with someone, because she started changing as a consequence of meeting Sheldon. It's the same reason I like to pretend Santa Simulation never happened, because the lines they gave her in that episode made no sense in terms of what we had been told about her history during S4 and 5: she never drank alcohol before meeting Penny, yet we are supposed to assume that she passed out at a frat party? It would be like suddenly finding out Sheldon actually went to high school, when we were told he went to college at 11. I like Amy's characterization as being the girl who was completely stunted in all aspects of life but science and who came out of her shell thanks to her chance meeting with Sheldon and the friends she met through him. I don't think the Amy we were presented in S4 would have given a guy like Howard a chance at all back then. Although, to be fair, Amy doesn't know what Howard was like before Bernadette, so she probably imagines him to be more like he is now.

 

It also cracks me up how people are making the canon Howard and Amy out to be like best buddies because of one episode where they found the one interest they have in common. Not that I did not adore them in that episode, it was great, and I really want them to go to that Neil Diamond concert! :p But from there to being besties... well, it's a bit of a stretch.

 

Having said that, we really know NOTHING about this episode. I'm still not even convinced it's each character having their own daydream and I think Penny dating Stuart who is full of swag sounds a lot more like Stuart's own fantasy than something Penny would imagine. Who knows what would come out of it really?

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@Carlos I see your point and there are several ways to make an AU episode including one that the characters are completely OOC. Therefore there is a way to have Amy and Howard as a couple in an AU and it could be ok. But the major issue for the shamy is the physical aspect on their relationship and all we are waiting for is a kiss!!!! Nothing more just a little kiss and it seems like a mockery from the writers to see Amy and Howard as a couple before we get to see something with Sheldon even if it is AU!!! I really get it from the point of view of the Lennys it isn't the best the Penny/Stuart thing but in the next episode Leonard and Penny will be as we know them and there will probably be sweet and beautiful scenes. Plus I am one of those you care about Amy most of all and already the writers seem to handle her more than a character that serves a purpose than an independent character. If we have a chance to see an AU it would be better to see Amy as she was at first than something completely different. The s4 Amy would never date Howard because even if she liked the guy with the goofy haircut she never intented to give up the goodies.

 

I understand what you are saying, and as I was telling Star, I think it would be best to watch the episode or have a proper taping report to know eaxcly what has happened and how. And I agree with you that the writers have been uneven in the way they write Amy. Sometimes they write her as a full character, and soemtimes they just have her serve a function. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

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Oh, for Christ's sake...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk

 

And here comes MJP's signature statement :keeporder:

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Koops I would LOVE an AU episode where the characters change personalities!!!! That would be SO funny!!! I don't even know what I would like the most!! A Sheldon like a sex-crazed pre-Bernie Howard, cool and street smart like Penny or like Raj when he couldn't speak(Sheldon's nightmare LOL)!!! Other characters would be interesting too(like scientist Penny) but I believe Sheldon would crack me up!!!!

Oh about the santa simulation just do what I do. I pretend Amy made all those things up to make Raj like her. Only that makes sense with everything we knew about Amy until then!!

Well we've heard very little things that confused us more than helped to understand what is going on with the ep. Sometimes we can get carried away but it is fun to make assumptions ;-) Plus at some point we are just speaking theoretically. and just try to explain why we would or wouldn't like for something to happen or not.

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It's AU. I can't summon up any thing except mild curiosity because it's AU. Deliberately it's not going to be consequential because, well, it's AU. Not just removed from "reality", but 146.9m km removed (one AU). Way out there. So they can mix up anything they want. That's great for experimentation and for less head-exploding and more fun. Maybe it will reinforce the idea that where they are in the real timeline is where they should be naturally. A lot depends on whose POV it's from. If it's a montage of everyone's POV then it could be insightful. But I hope they go nuts with it.

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However, if it's each character's "daydream" couldn't it be interpreted that in each of their deep subconscious that is what they would prefer in real life? Something to consider? :) (Except of course for Lenny. They should never mess with Lenny ever again!l) Lol!! :)

Edited by SodidIwin?

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However, if it's each character's "daydream" couldn't it be interpreted that in each of their deep subconscious that is what they would prefer in real life? Something to consider? :) (Except of course for Lenny. They should never mess with Lenny ever again!l) Lol!! :)

That would depend how the actors play it, because like all dreams, there are good dreams and nightmares. I think since the story is going to be sort of how Sheldon in their life's improved their lives, the daydreams will be about how they would have had to settle for less than the good lives they have now.

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However, if it's each character's "daydream" couldn't it be interpreted that in each of their deep subconscious that is what they would prefer in real life? Something to consider? :) (Except of course for Lenny. They should never mess with Lenny ever again!l) Lol!! :)

 

you can't just exclude one. :p

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you can't just exclude one. :p

I specifically did that for those saying not to touch the character Amy! :) I just wanted to see how long before someone would say you can't single out characters. :)

Edited by SodidIwin?

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However, if it's each character's "daydream" couldn't it be interpreted that in each of their deep subconscious that is what they would prefer in real life? Something to consider? :) (Except of course for Lenny. They should never mess with Lenny ever again!l) Lol!! :)

If they imagine something different and want that, then that's awkward, as they would be regretting their past choices.

But if they imagine something different that is worse and turn out to prefer reality, then that reinforces their choices. If Sheldon is the nexus between what is and what might be, then that shows the value of Sheldon in making their lives better. But only in terms of being a precipitating factor, like a "meet cute". I can't see how they can make a tremendous case that he daily improves their lot, except for Amy, and maybe for Leonard in feeding his masochistic martyrdom preferences (or selflessness heheh).

And Penny has plenty to offer in regard satisfying urges for martyrdom so Sheldon is kind of redundant there. If Penny and Leonard have holes in their lives, they can each fill them without Sheldon. They just had to meet.

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If they imagine something different and want that, then that's awkward, as they would be regretting their past choices.

But if they imagine something different that is worse and turn out to prefer reality, then that reinforces their choices. If Sheldon is the nexus between what is and what might be, then that shows the value of Sheldon in making their lives better. But only in terms of being a precipitating factor, like a "meet cute". I can't see how they can make a tremendous case that he daily improves their lot, except for Amy, and maybe for Leonard in feeding his masochistic martyrdom preferences (or selflessness heheh).

And Penny has plenty to offer in regard satisfying urges for martyrdom so Sheldon is kind of redundant there. If Penny and Leonard have holes in their lives, they can each fill them without Sheldon. They just had to meet.

 

 

That is a better explanation, Sheldon doesn't really make their lives better he serves as a 'meet cute' for them, without his exsistance they would have never met.  That is a much better explanation why Sheldon is needed, in their lives and still justifies them wanting to kill him in his sleep., now that his purpose is no longer needed, except for Amy of course, she still needs him.

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As a Shamy shipper, I will use the words of Sheldon to describe the utter overreaction to a potential HAMY AU pairing by the rest of Shamy folks here : See, this is why people think you are weird.

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As a Shamy shipper, I will use the words of Sheldon to describe the utter overreaction to a potential HAMY AU pairing by the rest of Shamy folks here : See, this is why people think you are weird.

but people like us...quirks and all.

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Bottom line, it just is defying history.

I get tired of the writers bending Amy to fit story versus keeping her consistent with who she is as a person.  It is fine to show her organically changing because of love and friendships, but quite another to change her whole history to fit a story.

Of course it's defying history, it's AU. Howard's different too. In a fat suit I hear. Who knows what story the writers will weave for these two. They do get on; very well, it's undeniable. If AU Howard pursued AU Amy perhaps he wore her down, might've taken months (years even) but, if they're showing them as together, then clearly somehow something clicked. Why shouldn't Howard's attention change her (but in a different way to Sheldon's and Penny's). Perhaps AU Amy sees herself as a bit of a femme fatale due to Howard lusting after her!

I said in the Howamy thread that I thought they were foreshadowing. If the foreshadowing was only there to make this AU plausible, then that's got to be the least disruptive and best case scenario for the Shamy in the long run.

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Of course it's defying history, it's AU. Howard's different too. In a fat suit I hear. Who knows what story the writers will weave for these two. They do get on; very well, it's undeniable. If AU Howard pursued AU Amy perhaps he wore her down, might've taken months (years even) but, if they're showing them as together, then clearly somehow something clicked. Why shouldn't Howard's attention change her (but in a different way to Sheldon's and Penny's). Perhaps AU Amy sees herself as a bit of a femme fatale due to Howard lusting after her!

I said in the Howamy thread that I thought they were foreshadowing. If the foreshadowing was only there to make this AU plausible, then that's got to be the least disruptive and best case scenario for the Shamy in the long run.

 

Amy already sees herself as a femme fatale! Look at S4 and 5, LOL. Pulled Groin was the zenith of Femme Fatale Amy. :p

 

AU aside, I don't really understand where people see this undeniable connection between Amy and Howard after one episode where all they did was sing? I mean, don't get me wrong, I LOVED them, and I would love to see them interact more, but I honestly think that, at this stage, there's nothing but Neil Diamond to connect them. Wasn't that the whole point of the episode, that it's the only thing they have in common? Have they even talked to each other since? I don't think they were "foreshadowing" anything. Howard is happily married to Amy's close friend and Amy is in a relationship. They were not going to have some sort of torrid extra-marital flirting or affair on a show like this. If they did decide to go for the AU is probably because they realized that Mayim and Simon are a riot together.

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Amy already sees herself as a femme fatale! Look at S4 and 5, LOL. Pulled Groin was the zenith of Femme Fatale Amy. :p

Oh yes, now imagine this magnified tenfold for AU Amy!!!

 

AU aside, I don't really understand where people see this undeniable connection between Amy and Howard after one episode where all they did was sing? I mean, don't get me wrong, I LOVED them, and I would love to see them interact more, but I honestly think that, at this stage, there's nothing but Neil Diamond to connect them. Wasn't that the whole point of the episode, that it's the only thing they have in common? Have they even talked to each other since? I don't think they were "foreshadowing" anything. Howard is happily married to Amy's close friend and Amy is in a relationship. They were not going to have some sort of torrid extra-marital flirting or affair on a show like this. If they did decide to go for the AU is probably because they realized that Mayim and Simon are a riot together.

That's my point, no-one wants to see that, so it confused me as to what the little hints were for. I now suspect they were for this AU scenario. How can you deny that they hit it off?! They blew off the scavenger hunt to go sing karaoke together (presumably without letting their significant others know), that's how much they enjoyed each other's company. I'm not saying they're besties, soul-mates or whatever, I'm saying they clicked, they got on and had a blast together. They so did!

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