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bigbangsheldon
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I have a question about the timeline. When Leonard and Penny talk to one another at the beginning of this episode, she told him that he did the right thing the night before, which means that he hesitated on her proposal the previous night. A few moments later she said that she quit the CF "yesterday." That would mean that she quit the CF and THEN proposed to Leonard while drunk. I wonder if quitting the CF was a motivator for proposing to Leonard...

 

She might not have said exactly "yesterday" when she said she had already quit. If we assume only one day has passed between the proposal and Leonard going to talk to her then we can guess that she quit earlier that day and Leonard went to talk to her after work. I don't think she quit the CF before she drunk proposed to Leonard. My guess would be she drunk proposed, woke up the next morning, quit the CF, and then told Leonard when he came to talk to her after coming home from work. But it's also possible that more than just one day had passed between her proposing and him going to talk to her. Leonard mentioned something like he was scared to talk to her because he was afraid of what she would say and what it means for their relationship.

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Maybe she quit, after all of her disappointment with the cut scene, then got drunk, to both Concorde herself over the cut scene and maybe to celebrate finally quitting the CCF, and then she ended up proposing to Leonard.

Dunno.

It could be that she did all three things in fairly quick succession because having her scene cut was a big trigger for her.

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I know working actors, when I say working actors, I mean actors who aren't names by any means but do make their living by doing commercials and various odd gigs here and there. One thing all these people have in common is that they all have some kind of part time job to suppliment their income. There are times when months go by between booking gigs and unless you are booking at least 1 to 2 national commercials where there are continuous residuals coming in after the initial pay it is extremely difficult to support yourself on acting jobs alone. Especially out here in CA where the cost of living is expensive.

 

Most commercials, but especially the national ones(these the big paying gigs for the working actor)have to be auditioned for, what's more is that you have to be invited to the audition by the casting agency, you can't simply go in and sign up for a try out. Given that Penny is SAG/Aftra she cannot do any non union work. Which really puts her in the same position she's been in this entire time when it comes to trying to land acting jobs. Except now she doesn't have any other means to suppliment her income between jobs.

 

On top of this she is now incuring a new expense with the acting lessons which are not going to be free by any means, on top of whatever her currently living expenses happen to be. The NCIS gig can hold her over for a couple of months at most but after that if she hasn't booked anything she's going to be out of cash. I'm curious as to where the writers are going to take it. They'll either give her some more success or they'll have her depleted money as a partial gateway into having Leonard either move in with her or her move with him.

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She might not have said exactly "yesterday" when she said she had already quit. If we assume only one day has passed between the proposal and Leonard going to talk to her then we can guess that she quit earlier that day and Leonard went to talk to her after work. I don't think she quit the CF before she drunk proposed to Leonard. My guess would be she drunk proposed, woke up the next morning, quit the CF, and then told Leonard when he came to talk to her after coming home from work. But it's also possible that more than just one day had passed between her proposing and him going to talk to her. Leonard mentioned something like he was scared to talk to her because he was afraid of what she would say and what it means for their relationship.

So he was really scared she was going to tell him they were through? That is so pathetic, I thought we were done with that after season 5, but now Leonard is doing it again and people think Lenny is doing good, that is regression if he now has lost confidence in the relationship.

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That is the problem with the writing style ever since Molaro has taken over.  They make progress and then take it all back for several episodes later and then step forward again, then take that back, etc.  It has been a constant frustration.   I see it with both Lenny and Shamy couples.   I think they think we all enjoy that, but I can see that it has worn thin for a while now based on the fragmentation and frustration level with fan bases.  I think they really need to be addressing this and quick.   This regression back is not fun to watch.   It isn't funny anymore either.   I know they have been dancing around wondering about renewals and the like,but once those contracts are in place, they had better start committing to move forward because recycled story and jokes won't keep this show number one for long.

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So he was really scared she was going to tell him they were through? That is so pathetic, I thought we were done with that after season 5, but now Leonard is doing it again and people think Lenny is doing good, that is regression if he now has lost confidence in the relationship.

Well the latest storyline arc wouldn't work if Leonard wasn't regress in some form. The Leonard we saw on the boat and who returned home doesn't fit L/P/S current arc so it's back to Season 3 crap all over again.

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Well the latest storyline arc wouldn't work if Leonard wasn't regress in some form. The Leonard we saw on the boat and who returned home doesn't fit L/P/S current arc so it's back to Season 3 crap all over again.

 

Yes...that is what I am afraid of and we all know how unpopular Season 3 was with most fans.  You think they would learn!

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Well the latest storyline arc wouldn't work if Leonard wasn't regress in some form. The Leonard we saw on the boat and who returned home doesn't fit L/P/S current arc so it's back to Season 3 crap all over again.

 

 

They have stopped talking about their problems, like in the Thanksgiving episode, they didn't talk they just had a fight, then these last two taping reports they didn't talk at all and Penny is getting all mad at Leonard for almost everything.  AmyGirl you are right it is just like season 3 for both of them again.  The making Leonard not worried again if fights mean breakup, is a huge regression.  Lenny is not doing fine, it is going backwards.  

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They have stopped talking about their problems, like in the Thanksgiving episode, they didn't talk they just had a fight, then these last two taping reports they didn't talk at all and Penny is getting all mad at Leonard for almost everything.  AmyGirl you are right it is just like season 3 for both of them again.  The making Leonard not worried again if fights mean breakup, is a huge regression.  Lenny is not doing fine, it is going backwards.  

 

Since this is not the Leonard Penny spoiler thread I guess I can say that I think the Lenny shippers in this forum often exaggerate the amount of change/growth of Leonard in particular. Leonard is the anchor the series revolves around and he has changed very little from the pilot. He no longer sweats bullets just going out with Penny but that is mostly just because of familiarity and a change in their status.

 

Leonard may fluctuate a little form episode to episode but I think that has more to do with the fluctuation in his general state of mind rather deep personal growth.

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That is the problem with the writing style ever since Molaro has taken over.  They make progress and then take it all back for several episodes later and then step forward again, then take that back, etc.  It has been a constant frustration.   I see it with both Lenny and Shamy couples.   I think they think we all enjoy that, but I can see that it has worn thin for a while now based on the fragmentation and frustration level with fan bases.  I think they really need to be addressing this and quick.   This regression back is not fun to watch.   It isn't funny anymore either.   I know they have been dancing around wondering about renewals and the like,but once those contracts are in place, they had better start committing to move forward because recycled story and jokes won't keep this show number one for long.

 

I love Molaro, especially how he had fixed Penny in season 6 so that she would talk to Leonard  about her insecurities and how Leonard became more confident and firm with her flightiness. All the characters, except Sheldon on occasions, made major steps to being adults in season 6. But season 7 has been all over the place with the characterizations.

 

I think season 7 has been excellent with the comedy gag writing and mixing up the interactions between the characters but there is that damnable call back to old character traits that are used to get easy laughs that leave you thinking "aren't we past that now?"

 

Leonard, who seemed so confident at the end of season 6 with Penny now acts, at times, like the frighten suitor of  season 2.

 

Penny who could sit down and talk to Leonard after the ILY, now on some occasions, will just get angry at him after misinterpreting a comment he made that sets off her insecurity alarm. Penny's always been impulsive but  now the woman who strategised on how to get her man tenure, quits her job without a backup plan and get angry when he asks her to think it through. You see on occasions the ditzy blond of season 2.

 

Sheldon "being Sheldon" should not mean being a complete cypher on social norms after living with Leonard for 10 years. He should know when he is hurting Amy just like he seems to know now that he is annoying. And why have him be the Lenny "child" of season 3? You never know which seasons Sheldon will show up on a given week.

 

Amy's change has been the most consistent but I wish the writers would let her become more of a girlfriend and less of a martyr. 

 

Howard has grown into an adult trying to shed his Momma's boy image but the "playful" put downs of his mother is become bitter and sometimes disturbing.

 

Bernie is now the shrew from Hell and less Penny's voice of reason and role model.

 

Raj is now able to talk to women and is still pathetic.

 

 

I know the producers and writers were faced with a dilemma after season 6. The character grew at an exponential pace in some areas (throwing Dinner Parties?) and if they continued at that rate of change, they would have lost a boatload of callback jokes based on traits from the character previous incarnation. They would be forced to change their character joke formula which has served them well. The relationships, especially the Shamy would have progressed to a point that they would be afraid that the audience would not catchup,  or like the direction. They love injecting some drama into the Lenny stability now or they will be doing all married couple plot lines, which they have already done this season. And the Shamy seems to me is: 1 step forward , two steps back, then 2 steps forward and 1 step back, then repeat.

 

They must have some interesting conversations this season in the writers room.

Edited by BangerMain
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@Bangerman I would agree with so much of what you said but you opened with "I love Molaro".  I think under his direction the tail has wagged the dog too often.  Too many times it seems that the plots are written for the jokes instead of vice-versa.

 

I'm not disparaging his talent but the ability to keep a talented team focused on the story. What story do we want to tell? Where is it going? What is the history of this character, their relationship to one another, past, present, future and not just "hey wouldn't this be funny?".  Whether the situations are short one-shot or season arcs there needs to be a lead to take the creativity towards something.  I know there have been discussions about limitations in planning episodes for union regulations etc... But a showrunner has a vision, shares the vision and leads others towards it.  

 

Prady did it better. I think Koops was the one who mentioned his quote about taking a pause before committing Shamy to some action. "If other couples do it this way but what would Shamy do?"  I think he did that [took pause] with the show in general. He wasn't flawless but I sense stronger leadership and more willingness to say "No" instead of trying to make too many people happy. Plus perhaps also not afraid to disagree with Lorre if he deemed necessary.

 

So ratings soar on Molaro's watch? Well like in sports and politics you inherit the rewards or failures of the predecessor. Prady left him a solid foundation of science, comedy and characters with infinite possibilities for story lines.  So he likes to recycle, recycle, recycle.  Go forward then back, back, back. The randomness is frustrating for the long-time fans and will wear shorty on the fickle viewer suckered in by the delightful era of the Prady years. I would be thrilled to have Prady back at the helm.

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So, if the episode is good, the writers are doing well, but if something displeases people, or the think it will be bad, suddenly the writers are a bunch of hacks who can only rehash previous seasons?

The writers are always very talented, but Molaro is supposed to set direction, just as Dessert mentioned above.   He has not done that. Instead it seems like they are floundering each week to figure out where they want to go.  Yes they have wonderfully fun and beautiful episodes, then follow those with episodes that frustrate and confuse.   After a while it is hard to enjoy when you are constantly wondering where things are leading.   I don't think the writers are hacks ever.  They are too brilliant for that.  But also feel they have no direction and no one at the helm making a decision and sticking with it on where they want to get to.   It just feels like this season has flip flopped all over the place (and much of last year too).   Likewise the recycled stories (while maybe new lines and jokes, still are quite visible) and the same hashed material (Howard's fat mother, Amy's need for affection, Leonard's insecurity, Penny's fear of commitment, Penny being the dumb blonde, Bernadette becoming a screeching version of Howard's mother, etc.) has really gotten tiresome.  It shows that they really have no idea how to continue to develop.

 

As Dessert said above, Prady knew how to step back, give thought to what to do with Shamy and they were consistent, they were moving forward, slowly, but you still felt progress.   This year, sometimes I feel progress then I feel like we have regressed back to almost before they knew each other (they almost act like siblings more than boyfriend/girlfriend).  It is so all over the place and the character traits are changed in order to to meet the joke instead of keeping consistent with who they are (or at least once were).  Their histories are re-written often as well.   So the direction seems to be about delivery of one-liners rather than telling a story and sticking with it.

 

Even with saying all of that, I don't fault the writers.  They are doing as they are told.  They are brilliant and good,and creative and definitely know how to toss in zingers.   But I do fault their leadership.  They are ships without a course, captain and ship's wheel at this point, or at least that is how it feels to me.  I don't think I am alone on that front. 

 

I agree with Dessert, that things were much better run under Prady and Lorre than they have been under Molaro.   You even see it relative to events and how less organized they are under Molaro than they were before him.   So I think the leadership is the weak link here.

Edited by stardustmelody
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If Molaro was doing such a bad job, ratings would be sinking, not rising, and certainly Lorre wouldn't leave him in the driver's seat. Lorre and Prady are still very involved in the production of the show and if they thought it was going the wrong direction or was somehow "all over he place", they'd do something about it.

You assume that Lorre and Prady have no input, but I'm sure that they do.

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If Molaro was doing such a bad job, ratings would be sinking, not rising, and certainly Lorre wouldn't leave him in the driver's seat. Lorre and Prady are still very involved in the production of the show and if they thought it was going the wrong direction or was somehow "all over he place", they'd do something about it.

You assume that Lorre and Prady have no input, but I'm sure that they do.

 

Prady has not spent much time with the show.  He has been teaching at USC and does not show up to every table read.   Lorre is involved, but I do think that when you put someone in charge, you allow them freedom to succeed or sink.

 

Yes, ratings have been strong, but a lot of those ratings were new viewers that came at the beginning of season 6 (before Molaro was in charge), coming in from a foundation built by Prady.  Most came from catching S5 and seeing what they liked.  Even on this forum many new viewers started in S6 because of seeing some S5 episodes and liking what they saw.   It takes a good couple of years for a shows ratings to change often.  Fans hang in for quite some time, but then they get bored after a while and then you see ratings drop.   Based on feedback I am seeing on various sites, I think many fans are close to that point.   Can that be rectified, indeed it can.  But if they continue floundering around as they have, they will start to see ratings dip.

Edited by stardustmelody
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I agree with stardust and dessert. Ever since Molaro took over, every episode is just a confusing mess. For the past 2 months or so I've felt like "Where are we going with this?". It's just all over the place.

Yes, the ratings are good now but keep confusing the crap out of people week in and week out, they aren't going to stay like that.

I am not complaining about the writers and in general I've enjoyed the season so far, besides 1 or 2 episodes. But, Molaro needs to get the direction together, figure out where this is going, because right now it is clear he's driving northbound in the southbound lane and sometimes just getting on the wrong highway all together, if you will.

Edited by denajeanx
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If Molaro was doing such a bad job, ratings would be sinking, not rising, and certainly Lorre wouldn't leave him in the driver's seat. Lorre and Prady are still very involved in the production of the show and if they thought it was going the wrong direction or was somehow "all over he place", they'd do something about it.

You assume that Lorre and Prady have no input, but I'm sure that they do.

 

I do understand that Lorre and Prady have input but I sense they still let Molaro guide the show. I could only compare it to sports/business where you have different types of owners; control freak, meddler, a mentor, hands off and silent partner type relationship. I imagine Lorre and Prady more of the mentor types. Lorre especially since he has so many shows but will regularly check in and give direction on the "big stuff" (to Molaro "You've got Proton for two episodes one in fall, one in spring. Let me see what ideas you come up with first"). The day to day - episode to episode - consistent character development - is where the holes exist with continuity and rational progress.

 

Taking into consideration creativity S7 is much better than S6 and we have seen some BIG risks like the Scavenger Hunt episode which from a technical standpoint broadened the possibilities for future stories. Once again though I want the story to be right more than the gimmick or joke. Penny is one who has been sacrificed for 'the joke' so much she has morphed and not evolved. 

 

When I heard Molaro was becoming the showrunner I looked forward to the "humanity" factor increasing at the perfect time.  The characters were older, involved in relationships, involved in greater social and professional endeavors. Great. Science, humor, friendship, heart but NOPE snark, drama, humor, snark. It's like he didn't want to put a heart stamp on the episodes. Too afraid to be the softy.  

 

:dance: Okay no more Debbie-Downer, I really didn't mean to drop in and pile on Molaro and in reading 7x13 I get a sense that we are at a turning point.  I can't say definitively why but there are a few things here that have me excited for the first time in weeks.

 

1. Love Amy's story away from Sheldon quoting Koops "Koothrafowlowitz is my new brhomance!"

2. Love Penny's good-bye to CF (hate the drama for Lenny and poor suffering of Leonard -- again) but this good-bye needed to get here somehow.

3. Capitol Comics - a new set-  a new villian (I love the bad boys) - JOSH PECK - hope he is good enough (or bad enough) to become a regular foe. He is young!!! someone under 30 on the show!!!!  :yahoo: (okay he's just a year younger than Penny but sometimes she morphs into a bitter middle aged alcoholic)

4. New pairing Bernadette and Stuart (Sheldon would have been a more interesting addition here instead L/P/S but I'll just yawn and take it)

 

I do  feel like this is a turning point with so many new things happening in one episode...emphasis on the red words! 

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So much hate for Molaro!  I honestly think much of the complaining about the direction of the show is because of myopia.  Look too closely at any one episode and you're not going to see the direction.  Yes, there are elements of "two steps forward, one step back" but that's what real life is like too.  I think Molaro is doing a great job.  I don't think there will be a major break-up on his watch. 

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So much hate for Molaro!  I honestly think much of the complaining about the direction of the show is because of myopia.  Look too closely at any one episode and you're not going to see the direction.  Yes, there are elements of "two steps forward, one step back" but that's what real life is like too.  I think Molaro is doing a great job.  I don't think there will be a major break-up on his watch. 

 

Certainly "hate" is too harsh and not intended. I only read respectful criticism and there was no myopia as we were discussing seasons, not just one episode. The discussions about Molaro had nothing to do with a "break-up on his watch" but his style of leadership.

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I don't think Molaro is doing a bad job these last 1,5 season, but I liked the way Prady "handled" things.

 

He has made some fantastic episodes (6x14,6x15,6x23,7x03,7x04,7x11) but I don't like how he let the characters make a big step in their (romantic) life, and then never make any further progress on it, or even take a few steps back from it.

 

Good example is 6x23, where we finally saw Sheldon outright saying what he thinks and feels, and that he is working on it.

But after that, we have had nothing on that front.

 

Or he (Molaro) dangles Tenure in front of us, and then drops it just as fast as it was brought up.

 

I do agree that we shouldn't view each episode on it's own, but even the big picture isn't looking so great imho.

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