Spoilers S7 Spoilers

[BangerMain]

I think you misunderstood the construction of my sentence. I didn't say "A lot of people who are into Shenny are casual viewers of the show". I said "A lot of people who are into Shenny BUT are casual viewers of the show want them together because of X and Y". I was talking about a specific subset of the audience.

 

Anyway, I was just thinking that I can also see the appeal of Shenny in an idealistic, 'love conquers all' kind of way. The two polar opposites who overcome their dissimilarities to change for each other and learn from each other because of their love for each other. But I personally think those kind of relationships are a bit of a Hollywood creation. In real life people tend to stick with people who are more or less on the same wavelength as they are. Sure, there is some wiggle-room of course, if two people are too similar it gets boring pretty fast even in RL, but, overall, real total opposites do not attract. I always thought that the canon pairings on the show are pretty realistic in that regard. 

 

Real total opposites, like Penny and Sheldon, have no real means to reach an inimate relationship with out some sort go between. The only thing that Penny and Sheldon have in common is a "love" and need for Leonard. As season 7 progresses, I am sure this will be stressed by the writers as usual.

 

Without Leonard, even now, they are two "ships" passing in the night.

[koops]

Lenny aren't real TOTAL opposites at all. They are opposites as far as profession, lifestyle or interests go maybe, but as far as personality they are both warm, welcoming, understanding, affectionate and fun. Sheldon, in relation to Penny is Leonard minus warmth, affection, understanding etc... Essentially, everything Lenny have in common and makes their relationship works, Sheldon lacks. That's why Shenny would never work. Shenny ARE the definition of total opposites. They have some parallel in terms of how they approach their relationships, but that's it. 

 

As for Shamy, they were engineered to work from day 1. The only way Shamy is not going to work is if the writers panic and decide they do not want to allow Sheldon to grow further in order to keep his character set in stone, or if they are not willing to backtrack Amy a little in case they do decide they don't want Sheldon to get physical. But, other than that, I'd be very shocked if they are not going to be end game. Of course Sheldon isn't going to become "intimate" from one day to the next, that's the whole point of their story. To say they're not going to work because of where they are now is not paying attention to what has happened so far and forgetting the fact that this is an ongoing story that is headed somewhere. Molaro said so himself: they are moving towards something. 

 

And same for H/B.

Edited August 23, 2013 by koops

[BangerMain]

I think I'll return to my die-hard pure Sheldonite roots...To paraphrase Dorothy Parker, the affair between Sheldon and Sheldon will live as one of the prettiest love stories in all television.

(Ha!)

 

 

Being a Sheldonite is the safest 'ship there is. Sheldon even told Amy "that's what keeps you in the running".

 

That love is eternal!

Edited August 23, 2013 by BangerMain

[Count Wally de Honk]

Anyway, I was just thinking that I can also see the appeal of Shenny in an idealistic, 'love conquers all' kind of way. The two polar opposites who overcome their dissimilarities to change for each other and learn from each other because of their love for each other. But I personally think those kind of relationships are a bit of a Hollywood creation. In real life people tend to stick with people who are more or less on the same wavelength as they are. Sure, there is some wiggle-room of course, if two people are too similar it gets boring pretty fast even in RL, but, overall, real total opposites do not attract. I always thought that the canon pairings on the show are pretty realistic in that regard. 

 

Ah ha. You see therein lies a significant point. Or there’s the rub, as they say. I do not like realistic interpretations. I write allegories myself, and prefer allegorical depictions in all artistic mediums over realism.  If I wanted realism, I’d observe what’s happening on the street, read the newspapers. I do all this. I need art to be ennobling in some even minor fashion.

I don’t think art mirrors life at all (as they say). Quite the opposite. I think people draw a great proportion of their ideals and notions of behaviour from literature and film. Hence I place a (perhaps excessive) level of importance on the actions and natures of fictional characters.

The “growth” of Sheldon, whilst I would not be opposed to it in the real world,  goes against the principles of allegorical art, which requires the characters to remain representative of one solitary concept, else the allegory on the whole loses its meaning.

In Sheldon’s case I saw him as either the Visionary or the Outsider, suffering through a dark sea of tribulations. Leonard was his anchor (or Sancho Panza), Penny a guiding light or beacon that he is nonetheless blind to, that represents the untormented mind. Penny also has a classic muse-like quality in that she represents the Other. Much, I suspect, as can-can dancers represented the height of Otherness to neurotic late-nineteenth century writers. (vague joke there)

There are only three characters in my own private TBBT allegory, because those are the only ones that fit my private mythology at the time of first watching. I cannot adapt it now, without losing its importance to me.

 

This is a blatantly and consciously subjective interpretation. Another person’s will be entirely different. And this is not the place to discuss it (I apologise), but good allegorical art should be open to two interpretations; the philosophical meaning intended by the artist, which must represent a common archetype, and something ambiguous enough for people to see their own stories in it.

 

And before anyone mentions it, I am perfectly aware TBBT is not “allegorical art”. I am referring in this instance more to allegorical interpretations of commonplaces, such as sitcoms, daily events and so forth.

 

Faintly unsettling (now that I look at it) ramble aside, my point was, my enjoyment of the S/P dynamic is indeed how closely it fits a traditional allegorical interpretation, and one that personally fits my own mythology. It’s NOT particularly realistic. If I wanted to look at life, I’d…go outside. The horror! THE HORROR.

 

 

I hope this quasi-philosophical gibbering hasn't been out of place. Perhaps we could have a thread for allegorical interpretations? I'd be very interested to hear other folks' "Own Private Allegories" (sans Keanu Reeves, obviously)

[Spaced_up]

 And that for me to be interested in a fictional relationship, romantic or platonic, at least one of the participants has to be dissimilar to myself. Holmes and Watson (by DOYLE dammit! Not the tv series),  Zorba and the Narrator, Withnail and I, etc.That's all. I'm not saying Amy and Sheldon don't work together on the show. Just why it's not appealing to me. As "looks" were previously mentioned as the main reason behind Shenny. Which is inaccurate, to my mind, so I thought I'd clarify that it's temperament to some, not looks.

 

It's totally temperament. I wouldn't care about Sheldon and Penny if there wasn't something similar about them. Another member wrote that they have the same kind of background. A white trash family upbringing, which connects them on a deeper level. Even if Johnny had ended up playing Sheldon (as was originally intended), I would still be a shenny. 

Edited August 23, 2013 by Spaced_up

[rachelshamyfan]

Why has this thread been taken over with talk of shenny

There is a whole shenny shipper thread available for that

[koops]

Ah ha. You see therein lies a significant point. Or there’s the rub, as they say. I do not like realistic interpretations. I write allegories myself, and prefer allegorical depictions in all artistic mediums over realism.  If I wanted realism, I’d observe what’s happening on the street, read the newspapers. I do all this. I need art to be ennobling in some even minor fashion.

I don’t think art mirrors life at all (as they say). Quite the opposite. I think people draw a great proportion of their ideals and notions of behaviour from literature and film. Hence I place a (perhaps excessive) level of importance on the actions and natures of fictional characters.

The “growth” of Sheldon, whilst I would not be opposed to it in the real world,  goes against the principles of allegorical art, which requires the characters to remain representative of one solitary concept, else the allegory on the whole loses its meaning.

In Sheldon’s case I saw him as either the Visionary or the Outsider, suffering through a dark sea of tribulations. Leonard was his anchor (or Sancho Panza), Penny a guiding light or beacon that he is nonetheless blind to, that represents the untormented mind. Penny also has a classic muse-like quality in that she represents the Other. Much, I suspect, as can-can dancers represented the height of Otherness to neurotic late-nineteenth century writers. (vague joke there)

There are only three characters in my own private TBBT allegory, because those are the only ones that fit my private mythology at the time of first watching. I cannot adapt it now, without losing its importance to me.

 

This is a blatantly and consciously subjective interpretation. Another person’s will be entirely different. And this is not the place to discuss it (I apologise), but good allegorical art should be open to two interpretations; the philosophical meaning intended by the artist, which must represent a common archetype, and something ambiguous enough for people to see their own stories in it.

 

And before anyone mentions it, I am perfectly aware TBBT is not “allegorical art”. I am referring in this instance more to allegorical interpretations of commonplaces, such as sitcoms, daily events and so forth.

 

Faintly unsettling (now that I look at it) ramble aside, my point was, my enjoyment of the S/P dynamic is indeed how closely it fits a traditional allegorical interpretation, and one that personally fits my own mythology. It’s NOT particularly realistic. If I wanted to look at life, I’d…go outside. The horror! THE HORROR.

 

 

I hope this quasi-philosophical gibbering hasn't been out of place. Perhaps we could have a thread for allegorical interpretations? I'd be very interested to hear other folks' "Own Private Allegories" (sans Keanu Reeves, obviously)

 

It's an interesting discussion because I find TBBT, despite its extremes due to the need for comedy, to be one of the most realistic sitcoms there are (possibly because I'm in the same career so I find their every-day situations very relatable), especially because of the so-called 'drying-paint' quality its character development has, by Chuck Lorre's own admission. There are no big life-changing moments, no dramatic events, everything moves along at a very uneventful pace and the relationships are long-lasting and well-matched and actually reflect fairly well the type of love-lives this kind of people generally have. So, in a sense, there's allegory (i.e. things are extreme and don't change or change very slowly), while at the same time being realistic (i.e. things change very slowly! and the relationships are very realistic). So I can see how this is a show that can cater to both palates. But S/P do not require to be romantic in order to be allegoric. Actually, I would argue that S/P remaining friends is more allegoric than them becoming romantically entangled, since that would require substantial changes to both characters.

 

I personally find it hard to buy into stories set in real-life settings, such as this one, that are completely unrealistic. I do love sci-fi though, and if I want something less realistic I watch sci-fi and suspend my disbelief. 

 

Anyway, it's an interesting discussion and I wish I had more time to delve further into it, but I agree, this might not be the right place to discuss this. 

Edited August 23, 2013 by koops

[Disgusted]

Why has this thread been taken over with talk of shenny

There is a whole shenny shipper thread available for that

 

Because there was an extended Penny/Sheldon scene.

 

Yesterday it was all Shamy.

[rachelshamyfan]

At least shamy is canon!

[Disgusted]

At least shamy is canon!

 

I got your cannon right here!   

 

[Count Wally de Honk]

Why has this thread been taken over with talk of shenny

There is a whole shenny shipper thread available for that

 

The past 24 pages have been filled with intermittent pockets of howling and ridicule against the wholly innocuous and spectral concept of Shenny. And by no Shenny advocates whatsoever. By canon shippers. A person would have to get a time machine to go back and tell everybody to stop bringing it up. The whole thing (and therefore a large portion of this thread) was incredibly dull and mildly offensive. Actually incredibly offensive, for those fans with different affiliations. And I believe we have the same rights as other fans. I think one page of intelligent and civil addressing, which up until now has been the mean, of the issue that seems to be perplexing people, is not a waste of space. I presume you are speaking to Koops, Bangermain, Jennyferbrelaz. 3kull, and Chiara, as well as Spaced_up and myself? I should hope so.

 

 

It's totally temperament. I wouldn't care about Sheldon and Penny if there wasn't something similar about them. Another member wrote that they have the same kind of background. A white trash family upbringing, which connects them on a deeper level. Even if Johnny had ended up playing Sheldon (as was originally intended), I would still be a shenny. 

"Incidentally, I’ve always found it interesting that the four chaps and Penny were born into families that span the traditional class system. Sheldon and Penny both come from working class backgrounds (even occasionally straying into what would offensively be termed “white trash”). Howard from lower middle class, Leonard upper middle class, and Raj is essentially an aristocrat. I think partially the reason Sheldon gets so uppity with Penny could be recognition of shared origins. (Actually, this should be; “one interpretation of why” as obviously Sheldon doesn’t think anything at all, being fictional.)"

 

Was it this quote? 'Twas me, bejaysus. In the Symbolism thread in the 5th season. I've been instructed to bugger off now. W

[Nogravitasatall]

No, stay, elucidate. (While I check Wikipedia on the universal declaration)

Article 27.

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

There you go

But posting excesses are maybe covered by

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Maybe not so helpful

Edited August 23, 2013 by Nogravitasatall

[Spaced_up]

Ah ha. You see therein lies a significant point. Or there’s the rub, as they say. I do not like realistic interpretations. I write allegories myself, and prefer allegorical depictions in all artistic mediums over realism.  If I wanted realism, I’d observe what’s happening on the street, read the newspapers. I do all this. I need art to be ennobling in some even minor fashion.

I don’t think art mirrors life at all (as they say). Quite the opposite. I think people draw a great proportion of their ideals and notions of behaviour from literature and film. Hence I place a (perhaps excessive) level of importance on the actions and natures of fictional characters.

The “growth” of Sheldon, whilst I would not be opposed to it in the real world,  goes against the principles of allegorical art, which requires the characters to remain representative of one solitary concept, else the allegory on the whole loses its meaning.

In Sheldon’s case I saw him as either the Visionary or the Outsider, suffering through a dark sea of tribulations. Leonard was his anchor (or Sancho Panza), Penny a guiding light or beacon that he is nonetheless blind to, that represents the untormented mind. Penny also has a classic muse-like quality in that she represents the Other. Much, I suspect, as can-can dancers represented the height of Otherness to neurotic late-nineteenth century writers. (vague joke there)

There are only three characters in my own private TBBT allegory, because those are the only ones that fit my private mythology at the time of first watching. I cannot adapt it now, without losing its importance to me.

 

This is a blatantly and consciously subjective interpretation. Another person’s will be entirely different. And this is not the place to discuss it (I apologise), but good allegorical art should be open to two interpretations; the philosophical meaning intended by the artist, which must represent a common archetype, and something ambiguous enough for people to see their own stories in it.

 

And before anyone mentions it, I am perfectly aware TBBT is not “allegorical art”. I am referring in this instance more to allegorical interpretations of commonplaces, such as sitcoms, daily events and so forth.

 

Faintly unsettling (now that I look at it) ramble aside, my point was, my enjoyment of the S/P dynamic is indeed how closely it fits a traditional allegorical interpretation, and one that personally fits my own mythology. It’s NOT particularly realistic. If I wanted to look at life, I’d…go outside. The horror! THE HORROR.

 

 

I hope this quasi-philosophical gibbering hasn't been out of place. Perhaps we could have a thread for allegorical interpretations? I'd be very interested to hear other folks' "Own Private Allegories" (sans Keanu Reeves, obviously)

 

 

I can't said it as beautifully as this but this is how I think as well. I don't want art to mirror my life. 

[koops]

Well, Shenny (non-romantic! before people lash out at me) was part of the premiere, so I think it's understandable why it's coming up. 

 

Anyway, regarding S/P background. While there are similarities, I don't think that makes a "deeper level of connection" between them at all. Social class is not the only thing that makes up a person's background. Sheldon was a child prodigy who went off to college aged 11 and since then has been restricted to academic settings. His mother used to take him to lectures as a child and he used to spend his time doing science since he was a little boy. Hardly sounds like a background that would connect him to Penny, who was, by her own admission, a high-school bully. 

 

If anything, I always found it interesting how Penny ended up surrounding herself with the type of people she used to bully as a youngster. Lio, I believe, has often suggested it would be awesome to have an episode where Penny goes back out with her old girlfriends and realizes how terrible that lifestyle was and how stupid these people were (ala "Zach was a perfectly pleasant guy and then you ruined him!") and how much she appreciates her friends now. I also agree that would be incredibly funny and sweet at the same time.

[Redrose]

Actually I thinks what opposes Sheldon and Penny is also what unites them. Sure, they share the same affection for Leonard but there are also more than that. They see each other as "dumb" - Penny sees Sheldon like a social dumb and Sheldon thinks Penny is an intellectual dumb. It's funny because they're all both right. They share the same fear of deep relationship because they never experienced it before. They are ambiious for their carreers ; Penny is sure to be a famous actress one day like Sheldon is sure to win the Nobel price. Not to mention their similar temperament. So yes I can see a sort of Shenny chemistry but if you want it to hold up, you have to erase the rest of their personalities and change characters like a lot of poeple as mentionned and developped it before.

[Convict13]

Raj will get tenure. That will unite Leonard and Sheldon in mutual huffiness for an episode.

 

Well with his perhaps "improved" relations with Mrs Davis this could be an option.

[Nogravitasatall]

Well, Shenny (non-romantic! before people lash out at me) was part of the premiere, so I think it's understandable why it's coming up. 

 

Anyway, regarding S/P background. While there are similarities, I don't think that makes a "deeper level of connection" between them at all. Social class is not the only thing that makes up a person's background. Sheldon was a child prodigy who went off to college aged 11 and since then has been restricted to academic settings. His mother used to take him to lectures as a child and he used to spend his time doing science since he was a little boy. Hardly sounds like a background that would connect him to Penny, who was, by her own admission, a high-school bully. 

 

If anything, I always found it interesting how Penny ended up surrounding herself with the type of people she used to bully as a youngster. Lio, I believe, has often suggested it would be awesome to have an episode where Penny goes back out with her old girlfriends and realizes how terrible that lifestyle was and how stupid these people were (ala "Zach was a perfectly pleasant guy and then you ruined him!") and how much she appreciates her friends now. I also agree that would be incredibly funny and sweet at the same time.

This would be a tremendous example of how the past is a foreign country. Wonderfully speculative too. Inverted fish out of water. She'd be an expatriate now too. If only they'd take their cat outside to play instead of keeping it indoors.

[Spaced_up]

Well, Shenny (non-romantic! before people lash out at me) was part of the premiere, so I think it's understandable why it's coming up. 

 

Anyway, regarding S/P background. While there are similarities, I don't think that makes a "deeper level of connection" between them at all. Social class is not the only thing that makes up a person's background. Sheldon was a child prodigy who went off to college aged 11 and since then has been restricted to academic settings. His mother used to take him to lectures as a child and he used to spend his time doing science since he was a little boy. Hardly sounds like a background that would connect him to Penny, who was, by her own admission, a high-school bully. 

 

If anything, I always found it interesting how Penny ended up surrounding herself with the type of people she used to bully as a youngster. Lio, I believe, has often suggested it would be awesome to have an episode where Penny goes back out with her old girlfriends and realizes how terrible that lifestyle was and how stupid these people were (ala "Zach was a perfectly pleasant guy and then you ruined him!") and how much she appreciates her friends now. I also agree that would be incredibly funny and sweet at the same time.

 

I don't know why the writers had to make Penny a bully. This is a recent thing, over the last season or so. When she first came on the show I would never have thought of her like that. I have to say this is a new development I don't like

 

As for shenny, I just have so little fight in me over my ship these days. We just have different views, that's just how it is. 

[BlackWhiteRose]

Spaced_up is right we just have different views.

 

Anyway: I can`t wait to see the episode. Its going to be funny. And it will be followed by another funny episode they´re going to tape next week.

Edited August 23, 2013 by BlackWhiteRose

[koops]

This would be a tremendous example of how the past is a foreign country. Wonderfully speculative too. Inverted fish out of water. She'd be an expatriate now too. If only they'd take their cat outside to play instead of keeping it indoors.

 

Can you imagine if she starts making random nerdy references in the middle of a conversation and then has this moment of realization of what she's doing? LOL! That would be so priceless. 

Actually, going back to the bully thing, it would be redeeming if her old friends made fun of the girls or the guys and Penny stood up for them. Kind of like she did with Zarnecki but on a wider scale. 

[rachelshamyfan]

The past 24 pages have been filled with intermittent pockets of howling and ridicule against the wholly innocuous and spectral concept of Shenny. And by no Shenny advocates whatsoever. By canon shippers. A person would have to get a time machine to go back and tell everybody to stop bringing it up. The whole thing (and therefore a large portion of this thread) was incredibly dull and mildly offensive. Actually incredibly offensive, for those fans with different affiliations. And I believe we have the same rights as other fans. I think one page of intelligent and civil addressing, which up until now has been the mean, of the issue that seems to be perplexing people, is not a waste of space. I presume you are speaking to Koops, Bangermain, Jennyferbrelaz. 3kull, and Chiara, as well as Spaced_up and myself? I should hope so.

"Incidentally, I’ve always found it interesting that the four chaps and Penny were born into families that span the traditional class system. Sheldon and Penny both come from working class backgrounds (even occasionally straying into what would offensively be termed “white trash”). Howard from lower middle class, Leonard upper middle class, and Raj is essentially an aristocrat. I think partially the reason Sheldon gets so uppity with Penny could be recognition of shared origins. (Actually, this should be; “one interpretation of why” as obviously Sheldon doesn’t think anything at all, being fictional.)"

Was it this quote? 'Twas me, bejaysus. In the Symbolism thread in the 5th season. I've been instructed to bugger off now. W

I was just having a general moan about it and not to any individual Edited August 23, 2013 by rachelshamyfan

[Count Wally de Honk]

I was just having a general moan about it and not to any individual

 

General Moan is permitted and pardoned. Major Gripe is highly paranoid these days.

[Disgusted]

Can you imagine if she starts making random nerdy references in the middle of a conversation and then has this moment of realization of what she's doing? LOL! That would be so priceless. 

Actually, going back to the bully thing, it would be redeeming if her old friends made fun of the girls or the guys and Penny stood up for them. Kind of like she did with Zarnecki but on a wider scale. 

Penny: Well, you know, it’s just that Leonard and Howard and Raj, they aren’t like other guys. They’re special.

Alicia: Okay, they’re special, and?

Penny: Oh, let’s see, how can I explain this, um, they don’t know how to use their shields.

Alicia: Shields?

Penny: Yeah, you know, like in Star Trek, when you’re in battle and you raise the shields? Where the hell did that come from? Anyways, um, you know how guys like this are, so, please don’t take advantage of them.

Alicia: Who says I’m taking advantage of them?

 

 

Dead Hooker. That was pre-Shamy, so I understand......

Edited August 23, 2013 by Disgusted

[Tensor]

General Moan is permitted and pardoned. Major Gripe is highly paranoid these days.

Take it easy on Major Gripe. He was in combat and has PTSD.

[Count Wally de Honk]

Can you imagine if she starts making random nerdy references in the middle of a conversation and then has this moment of realization of what she's doing? LOL! That would be so priceless. 

 

Koops! I was trying to find a goddamn gif of that Penny "Shields" scene for your appreciation. But nada. Disgusted beat me to it with the script. Her expression was excellent though, eh?

I love the scenes where Penny staggers over to the dark side. Aside from the one mentioned, we have 4.13 “From the waist down, my shields are up”, 3.1 “Remember that scene in the new Star Trek movie when Kirk has to take over the ship, so he tells Spock all that stuff he knew wasn’t true, like saying Spock didn’t care his mom died?”, and 4.7 “Kirk cheated.” “Impressive that you know that!”

I’m sure there are others, but I can’t think at the moment. It’s 1.30am, and the bats are beginning to perch in the trees. Not metaphorically.

 

Tensor - yes, it evolved mildly out of a figurative forum-based Full Metal Jacket scenario. We don't talk about it.