Spoilers S7 Spoilers

[ArmyGirl]

The tenure episode Leonard didn't want her involved SHE persuaded him that she could help, nowhere did he go for it. The quote is "do it" and Penny's reaction suggests she has told him her plan

 

So true and somehow it get's turned back on Leonard.  This is the very reason I hate when the writers pen something stupid like the topless movie and have Leonard and the crew on the boat watching it.  I don't care that it is for laugh. I only care that Leonard is being made to be the bad guy once again.

I am sorry but there would be no friendship between Sheldon and Penny without Leonard.  Leonard was the one to initiate the relationship in the pilot by inviting Penny over for lunch.  Sheldon had no interest Penny he was more focused on watching Battlestar Galactica Season 2 with commentary. 

 

Now, now you know in another universal that we don't know about Penny and Sheldon knew each and were friend and it had nothing to do with Leonard.  Heck Penny probably didn't even notices Leonard the whole time and was so into Sheldon and his beautiful blue eyes and creepy smile.

 

Some like to disregard that Leonard plays a big part in how the group of friends came to be and he is the center (glue) that holds them together.

[Tensor]

Some like to disregard that Leonard plays a big part in how the group of friends came to be and he is the center (glue) that holds them together.

If it wasn't for Leonard, Howard and Raj don't meet Sheldon.

If Leonard hadn't decided to invite Penny over and get involved with her, Penny wouldn't be part of the group.

If Howard and Raj aren't part of the group, Sheldon doesn't meet Amy.

If Penny isn't part of the group, Bernadette doesn't meet Howard.

Leonard is responsible, directly or indirectly for everyone in the group except Sheldon.

[Count Wally de Honk]

Completely respectfully, I think regardless of Leonard’s existence Sheldon and Penny would have become friends.

People speak of Leonard inviting Penny to dinner, and that Sheldon didn’t care to.

I don’t think 30 seconds or so seals forever the relationship between two people. Over the next six years of living five paces apart from each other’s doors, is it really feasible that they wouldn’t interact? Leonard may be Penny’s love interest in the show, but Sheldon is her friend. It would have occurred over time, and through Penny’s instigation, because she’s a generous, nosy, extroverted, charming git. And Sheldon would have submitted because Sheldon is lonely.

 

That’s if one wishes to talk about fictional characters as though they’re real people, as indeed we all seem prone to doing, particularly myself, regardless of the fact that they have no motivation other than the writers’ faintly idle and occasionally market-based intentions…

Damn you TPTB!

 

 

 

Edited to say - There's a hell of a lot of posting going on where someone quotes an entire half-page of words when they only mean to draw attention to a single sentence. I used to do it myself, then I found that it makes one's point more affective if you remove all the other sentences before you quote it. 

And re the comment above, I’m rather fond of Sheldon’s blue eyes and “creepy” smile. Does this make me biased? Yes. Does this make me wrong? No. I believe it’s called opinion. We're all subject to it.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Count Wally de Honk

[ArmyGirl]

If it wasn't for Leonard, Howard and Raj don't meet Sheldon.

If Leonard hadn't decided to invite Penny over and get involved with her, Penny wouldn't be part of the group.

If Howard and Raj aren't part of the group, Sheldon doesn't meet Amy.

If Penny isn't part of the group, Bernadette doesn't meet Howard.

Leonard is responsible, directly or indirectly for everyone in the group except Sheldon.

 

 

Tensor --- you are correct and thanks for posting the blueprint of how the group came to be and that Leonard played and plays an important role it.

[Zhalen565]

If it wasn't for Leonard, Howard and Raj don't meet Sheldon.

If Leonard hadn't decided to invite Penny over and get involved with her, Penny wouldn't be part of the group.

If Howard and Raj aren't part of the group, Sheldon doesn't meet Amy.

If Penny isn't part of the group, Bernadette doesn't meet Howard.

Leonard is responsible, directly or indirectly for everyone in the group except Sheldon.

Dont forget Sheldon only gets his spot because Leonard buys the couch.

[ArmyGirl]

Dont forget Sheldon only gets his spot because Leonard buys the couch.

 

You would think Sheldon bought the couch since Leonard can't sit anywhere he wants on it. lol

[Kasey]

Completely respectfully, I think regardless of Leonard’s existence Sheldon and Penny would have become friends.

 

 

I'm not so sure that they would have become friends in the strict meaning of the word.  I'm sure Penny would have been friendly but I don't think that being friendly is something that Sheldon has ever shown or ever wanted to be.  Besides that, Sheldon was looking for a roommate so it stands to reason that Penny might have become friendly with "unnamed roommate in a red shirt" and thusly become friends with Sheldon.  But I don't think Sheldon would ever seek out anyone for that type of companionship....

[koops]

I think the Toast Derivation really nicely addressed that. As much as Sheldon is the most popular character (and he believes himself to be the whimsical elf everyone looks at for a good time), Leonard is the glue and the group rotates around him. I honestly do think the show would fall apart if Johnny left, more than any other other character. Or maybe they would have some interesting story after that to show how the group desperately tries not to fall apart without him. Which I was kind of hoping these first episodes of the season were going to be about, but it doesn't sound like that's going to be the case.

[Count Wally de Honk]

But I don't think Sheldon would ever seek out anyone for that type of companionship....

 

Seek out, no, but having been afflicted with...? Perhaps. Most of Sheldon’s life seems to be adapting to circumstances inflicted upon him, be it new room-mates, or neighbours, or food distribution, and so forth. One cannot underestimate the degree to which Penny has been written to be intrusive. And what Sheldon seems to need in a friendship, is less understanding, and more “port of calm”. Penny, in her intrusiveness, is somewhat reliable in this. A reliable intrusion is a port of calm. However oddly.

 

What is the "strict meaning of the word friendship" when it comes to Sheldon anyway? He's not your usual duck.

 

Taking into mind what Koops (I've just seen above) has said, I still think in a world sans Leonard, Penny and Sheldon living across the hallway may have, now and again, developed some simpatico with each other. It's really not that far-fetched. At all.

 

It is of course a reality written by manifold people, and so any attempt of ours to either justify or explicate the characters actions is a purely academic exercise, and has no reflection on genuine behaviours.   

 

Disclaimer disclaimer….

[koops]

I think Penny could have become friends with a Sheldon, but I don't know that a Sheldon would have become friends with a Penny. It was pretty clear in Staircase that Leonard had a massive effect on his social adjustment and that before him Sheldon did everything he could to avoid interaction with people, and that meeting new people stressed him out so he thought of them as Star Trek characters. I don't know that Penny would have had the softness around the edges that Leonard has, probably due to having to put up with his mother all his life, to break through to Sheldon the way Leonard did. Or the patience even. As warm and welcoming and lovely and nosy of a girl she is, she doesn't strike me as the type that would put endless effort in a one-way street, given that she doesn't *need* to, being as sociable as she is. And without that time, I don't know that Sheldon would have come around to see the sides of her that make her a good friend to him. He did say himself "Leonard made me like you". Which, as much as it sounds like he was forced to like her, I think what it really means is that it's thanks to Leonard that he took the time to get to know her and like her as a person. 

[BangerMain]

 

What is the "strict meaning of the word friendship" when it comes to Sheldon anyway? He's not your usual duck.

 

I still think in a world sans Leonard, Penny and Sheldon living across the hallway may have, now and again, developed some simpatico with each other. It's really not that far-fetched. At all.

 

It is of course a reality written by manifold people, and so any attempt of ours to either justify or explicate the characters actions is a purely academic exercise, and has no reflection on genuine behaviours.   

 

Disclaimer disclaimer….

 

Ah yes, those pesky writers and their imperatives.

 

The way they have written Sheldon and Penny, without Leonard, Penny would have made maybe one attempt to greet Sheldon as her new neighbor. She would have been rebuffed and most likely misinterpret his attitude as insulting or diffident and pledge to never talk to that creep again. Sheldon would have been completely happy with this and Penny would feel no need to even try to understand him.

 

She had her own group of friends and associates and she would have regaled them with her story about the attempt to talk to the "weirdo" across the hall.

Edited August 25, 2013 by BangerMain

[Kasey]

Right Koops and without a catalyst, Sheldon does not extend himself to others.  Penny has really shown throughout that she tolerates Sheldon for the sake of Leonard much as she tolerates Howard for much the same reason.  I just cannot see Penny and Sheldon developing any kind of a friendship (even in any of his 26 dimensions) without someone else guiding it along...

 

 

Oh and right on BangerMain...

Edited August 25, 2013 by Kasey

[Tensor]

Completely respectfully,

First off, you don't have to do completely respectfully, Count. You don't do ad hominems and you do a good job of supporting why you believe the way you do, so feel free to disagree in any mood you so please.

 

I think regardless of Leonard’s existence Sheldon and Penny would have become friends. People speak of Leonard inviting Penny to dinner, and that Sheldon didn’t care to.

I don’t think 30 seconds or so seals forever the relationship between two people.

No, 30 seconds won't do it. But, the season four opener, has Sheldon complaining to Leonard that Penny is there. "I thought you two broke up, why is she here?" or even as late as the middle of season 5 (The Isolation Permutation) Sheldon blames Leonard for Penny:

Sheldon: You clearly weren’t listening to my topic sentence, get your women in line! You make them apologize to Amy and set things right. I am a man of science, not someone’s snuggle bunny!

Leonard: Why do I have to talk to Penny? She’s not my girlfriend.

Sheldon: You invited her to lunch four years ago. Everything about her is on you, you make it so!

 

Over the next six years of living five paces apart from each other’s doors, is it really feasible that they wouldn’t interact? Leonard may be Penny’s love interest in the show, but Sheldon is her friend. It would have occurred over time, and through Penny’s instigation, because she’s a generous, nosy, extroverted, charming git. And Sheldon would have submitted because Sheldon is lonely.

I'm not sure it would have been that easy. Without Penny being in the apartment with Leonard, would Sheldon have warmed up to the point of friendship? If Penny hadn't been involved with Leonard, she would have begun dating someone else(after all, she dated others, before and after they dated), perhaps even leaving the building to move in with another guy? I can see them interacting by saying hi to each other in the hall, recognizing each other, but without the constant contact, due to Leonard, to get them to understand one another as they now do, I see it being extremely difficult.

 

That’s if one wishes to talk about fictional characters as though they’re real people, as indeed we all seem prone to doing, particularly myself, regardless of the fact that they have no motivation other than the writers’ faintly idle and occasionally market-based intentions…

Damn you TPTB!

Well, of course. It wouldn't be any fun, otherwise, right?

 

Edited to say - There's a hell of a lot of posting going on where someone quotes an entire half-page of words when they only mean to draw attention to a single sentence. I used to do it myself, then I found that it makes one's point more affective if you remove all the other sentences before you quote it.

Then I done good in post 526, right?

[Kasey]

. 

And re the comment above, I’m rather fond of Sheldon’s blue eyes and “creepy” smile. Does this make me biased? Yes. Does this make me wrong? No. I believe it’s called opinion. We're all subject to it.

 

Count, I get the feeling that you think that anyone who may disagree with you is somehow insulting you and I hope I have not given you that impression.  We are all here to discuss and agree/disagree.  I don't see that this board at all is anything but accepting of a great many viewpoints (thank Tripper) but people just have their own way of saying things.  Some are not the most gracious with their words and sometimes some are just venting at no one in particular. 

 

Anyway, I'm sure there are many on here who find Sheldon's smile not at all creepy (well except maybe when he does the forced one)...

[ArmyGirl]

......

 

And re the comment above, I’m rather fond of Sheldon’s blue eyes and “creepy” smile. Does this make me biased? Yes. Does this make me wrong? No. I believe it’s called opinion. We're all subject to it.

 

No it doesn't make you wrong, just as it doesn't make me wrong in not being impressed with his blue eyes and finding his smile creepy. 

[3ku11]

Like above said you go back to S3 when Leonard was telling Penny the story about how he first met Sheldon, Sheldon clearly was against any real form of social interaction. Leonard arguably was the nucleus of change in his life, his seating pattern used to isolate him from other people, so as to centralize himself within the seating area. Leonard's change has slowly but surley implemented a new social pardaim in Sheldon's life, his seating pattern now arguably has now shifted so that he can socially interact with the group. Now imagine a scenario where Leonard never moved in, Sheldon remains on his own and Penny moves in, Leonard was the only reason Penny became a part of their circle, Leonard was the one who felt obliged to offer Penny lunch, seeing she just moved in and moving in according to Leonard is hard lol. Sheldon at that point had no intention of having anything to do with this new girl who moved in, Sheldon hates change he almost had a meltdown when he heard the people upstairs where moving. Leonard is the social nucleus in Sheldon's life, you could argue without Leonard would Penny have become friends with Sheldon, being very social and seeing at that point Sheldon was very analytical and way more eccentric then he is now, Penny most likely would of seen Sheldon as her weird neighbour lol, and when her girlfriends come over or they go out , may meet him in passing "Hey Sheldon!" "Hello" *closes door* lol. Due to Leonard's influence and his friendship and relationship he developed with Penny, Penny began to tolerate Sheldon, and as the years went by Sheldon became alot more humanized. And Penny has almost become a maternal figure in Sheldon's life. Leonard is the only reason IMO Sheldon and Penny most likely would of ever been friends in the first place, seeing their was no reason for Sheldon to interact with his ditzy, nebraska neighbour and seeing their was no reason for Penny to interact with her busy, eccentric neighbour most likely they would meet in passing but that would be it. So IMO when people say the show woulden't be the same without Sheldon while I completley agree with that, the show would not work without Johnny Galecki and Leonard IMO.

Edited August 25, 2013 by 3ku11

[Kasey]

I do agree that Leonard is the nucleus surrounded by the rest of the characters, but each of them also bring something to the table that without them would make the show less than what it is..

[3ku11]

I do agree that Leonard is the nucleus surrounded by the rest of the characters, but each of them also bring something to the table that without them would make the show less than what it is..

Yeah I know I was just establishing how the relationships were formed, but I do agree all the characters compliment each other and all contribute to the show.

[keie]

Let us also not forget this exchange:

 

Penny: You can't make people like each other.

Sheldon: Not true. Leonard made me like you and let me tell you, that was a hard row to hoe. 

 

Again, it's Leonard's influence that made Sheldon 'like' (become friends with) Penny. Had it not been for Leonard and Penny dating and Sheldon being Leonards best friend.....Penny and Sheldon would have had no reason to interact with each other, neighbors or not. 

 

Also regarding the taping report and people being at all upset over 'Shennyness'. Sheldon and Penny's friendship is a huge part of the show now and to some degree always has been. The whole crux of their friendship is that Sheldon learns about the world of socialization from a female point of view from Penny. This is a HUGE thing, lol. So of course it stands to reason that they would lean on each other while someone that they both care a great deal about (Leonard) isn't around.

Edited August 26, 2013 by keie

[rachelshamyfan]

Maybe somebody from the other forum is going

i will try and find out

[bamf25]

I do agree that Leonard is the nucleus surrounded by the rest of the characters, but each of them also bring something to the table that without them would make the show less than what it is..

They all have their roles.  I would also argue Penny is the catalyst.  Her moving in across the hall basically lead to the cascade of events the shock up the "rut" the boys were in.  Not even taking into account Leonard.  She introduced Howard to his wife.  She is the first girl that Raj has ever spoken too with or without alcohol.  She has been the emotional and common sense  (meaning just not book and geek culture smart) person in the group that has slowly helped Sheldon open up, and from what season 7 seems to be setting up Penny is arguably becoming Sheldon's best friend. If she had not moved in, it is possible that the four guys would have maintained the same rigid Shelton set scheduled, doing the same things, and having the same conversations. 

 

Not saying they have not changed her, but she has definitely changed all of them.

[bigbangsheldon]

I'm going to check the situation with this gal on twitter .

[rachelshamyfan]

Someone just posted on the show thread they have ticket for sep 17 and can't go

[bigbangsheldon]

They're not my tickets. I'm helping dealing them to someone who is willing to write something up for us. the person remains anon till we find someone

[rachelshamyfan]

Ack ignore my message I read the original post wrong