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I do agree that Leonard is the nucleus surrounded by the rest of the characters, but each of them also bring something to the table that without them would make the show less than what it is..

Leonard is the nucleus of the group while the others are the protons and electrons. Without any of them the show tends to get a bit

unbalanced. However separating them for short stretches gives the writers to explore aspects of the characters they can't when the gang is

together i..e Leonard on a boat in the North sea.

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I do agree that Leonard is the nucleus surrounded by the rest of the characters, but each of them also bring something to the table that without them would make the show less than what it is..

Of course, they all are indispensable in their own right and bring their own brand of madness to the stories. 

Perhaps, instead of nucleus, we could compare Leonard to a catalyst : he gets the ball rolling, like any good protagonist should. As Tensor summed up, without him no Raj and Howard; without Raj and Howard, no Amy; without Leonard no Penny; without Penny no Bernadette. 

 

It does not mean the other characters do no exist outside of his realm. Or do not have valuable interactions without his input. They do and... They do. 

It is somewhat similar to the Arthurian legend : Arthur, in many stories, takes a backseat. In some others, he is not even present. Yet, without him, there would be no Round Table and no knight around it. And without him, there would be none of these stories in which he is not even mentioned because, without him, there would be no Holy Grail to look for. 

The Geek Squad's Grail, so to speak, is a healthy balance between geekery and adult life. Leonard was the first to set his eyes on that particular prize when he decided Penny was the woman of his life. And just like that, he got the ball rolling for everybody else. 

Edited by Chiara
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Chiara, it's so great to have you back and posting your analyses. You have been missed.

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How exactly do people propose that the Shamy progress at a pace not dictated by Sheldon, without her forcing herself onto him in a predatory way? I'm sure that's not what people want, I just don't understand what's meant by the complaints that he shouldn't be the one controlling the pace. Surely the most reticent person should ALWAYS be the one to dictate the pace? 

 

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 

THIS   I totally agree here.  That is my major bugaboo...there are two people in the relationship but on the receiving side, it is very one-sided.   When you love someone, you like to make them happy even if it means a bit of discomfort on your part because it would not be your first choice in doing things.   You usually are pleased by finding out your reluctance is turned around into a reward.  By you stepping out of your comfort zone and showing another person what they need to be happy you find yourself abundantly happy as a result.   Sheldon is not only cheating Amy out of happiness, but himself as a result because he is being selfish about his own needs and not hers.

 

My impression is that if you have no experience of being asexual or aromantic, it will be very hard if not impossible to understand what this situation is like for someone like Sheldon. This situation does happen in real life, and typically it doesn't end well as "compromise" usually means that neither is satisfied enough to make the relationship viable. I'm not saying it's impossible for Shamy or that it needs to be 100% realistic, but it's worth pointing out that it's not a simple problem to solve at all. As this is fiction, I hope this will be one of the few happy endings, but there's no reason it should come easily. In real life, the asexual/aromantic person (and I think Sheldon is probably both) usually either has to find someone with very similar relationship desires as they have (very tricky to find, even with the Internet), or (like me) resign themselves to living as a single person forever because exclusive "special" relationships with lustful or dreamy-eyed glances involved, prove to be so impossible to feel comfortable in, even with people you love, that you're better off with uncomplicated friendships only. The sexual/romantic partner typically finds the discomfort of the other very hurtful and damaging to their self-esteem, even when intellectually they understand that it's not a rejection of their particular body or personality, and even if they believe that the other person loves them.

Edited by nerdywordy
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How exactly do people propose that the Shamy progress at a pace not dictated by Sheldon, without her forcing herself onto him in a predatory way? I'm sure that's not what people want, I just don't understand what's meant by the complaints that he shouldn't be the one controlling the pace. Surely the most reticent person should ALWAYS be the one to dictate the pace? 

 

 

My impression is that if you have no experience of being asexual or aromantic, it will be very hard if not impossible to understand what this situation is like for someone like Sheldon. This situation does happen in real life, and typically it doesn't end well as "compromise" usually means that neither is satisfied enough to make the relationship viable. I'm not saying it's impossible for Shamy or that it needs to be 100% realistic, but it's worth pointing out that it's not a simple problem to solve at all. As this is fiction, I hope this will be one of the few happy endings, but there's no reason it should come easily. In real life, the asexual/aromantic person (and I think Sheldon is probably both) usually either has to find someone with very similar relationship desires as they have (very tricky to find, even with the Internet), or (like me) resign themselves to living as a single person forever because exclusive "special" relationships with lustful or dreamy-eyed glances involved, prove to be so impossible to feel comfortable in, even with people you love, that you're better off with uncomplicated friendships only. The sexual/romantic partner typically finds the discomfort of the other very hurtful and damaging to their self-esteem, even when intellectually they understand that it's not a rejection of their particular body or personality, and even if they believe that the other person loves them.

 

I think that the way they have characterized Sheldon is that he's not truly asexual, just that up until he met Amy he had not been interested.  He has not been driven by libido, but I don't think they've labeled him as asexual.

In the original pilot, he was conceived as being somewhat sexual--turned on my female buttocks, experienced at masturbation, and at the end of the pilot, it was revealed that he had had sex with their female scientist friend.  By the time of the revised pilot, they'd left out the butt fetish and the sexual encounter, but he was still intending to masturbate for money.  They also had him being mildly flirty with Penny, even though he wasn't truly interested the way the other guys were.

 

At any rate, I think that the idea is that he's always considered sex and romance to be a waste of time better spent on solving the puzzles of the universe.  But then he met Amy and found himself drawn to her more than he had expected to be.  That doesn't mean that he's going to overcome his naiveté and his touch/germ anxieties just because he really likes her.

 

Yes, in real life, truly asexual people will have a difficult time with romantic/sexual relationships, but I don't think the writers here are intended to deal with it in a "realistic" or dramatic way, but rather in a positive, happy-ending way.  I think that they're going to take their time, but I really don't think they're going to doom Sheldon to a platonic relationship in the name of "reality" or asexuality.

As I've said elsewhere, I think that TPTB are really interested in happy endings all around as far as relationships are concerned.  The final happy endings may not become truly fulfilled until whenever the last season of the show may be, but I'm sure that's what they want.

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I think that the way they have characterized Sheldon is that he's not truly asexual, just that up until he met Amy he had not been interested.  He has not been driven by libido, but I don't think they've labeled him as asexual.

In the original pilot, he was conceived as being somewhat sexual--turned on my female buttocks, experienced at masturbation, and at the end of the pilot, it was revealed that he had had sex with their female scientist friend.  By the time of the revised pilot, they'd left out the butt fetish and the sexual encounter, but he was still intending to masturbate for money.  They also had him being mildly flirty with Penny, even though he wasn't truly interested the way the other guys were.

 

At any rate, I think that the idea is that he's always considered sex and romance to be a waste of time better spent on solving the puzzles of the universe.  But then he met Amy and found himself drawn to her more than he had expected to be.  That doesn't mean that he's going to overcome his naiveté and his touch/germ anxieties just because he really likes her.

 

Yes, in real life, truly asexual people will have a difficult time with romantic/sexual relationships, but I don't think the writers here are intended to deal with it in a "realistic" or dramatic way, but rather in a positive, happy-ending way.  I think that they're going to take their time, but I really don't think they're going to doom Sheldon to a platonic relationship in the name of "reality" or asexuality.

As I've said elsewhere, I think that TPTB are really interested in happy endings all around as far as relationships are concerned.  The final happy endings may not become truly fulfilled until whenever the last season of the show may be, but I'm sure that's what they want.

 

His flirtation with Penny in the pilot is an anomaly, which pilots often have, but afterwards they soon had him established as such a character that flirtation with anyone became unthinkable. The masturbation wouldn't have meant anything anyway, as contrary to popular belief, sexual fantasies involving other people are not required for that activity. If you've got normal genitalia, you're good to go - especially so if you have a fetish that can take the place of human fantasies, such as sock puppets. :icon_wink: Also, taking the attitude that sexual relationships are wastes of time and that unaffected minds are superior is not so uncommon among real asexuals, either. The asexuality comes first though, it's not caused by the superiority complex. Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-Shamy. I agree that TPTB will probably make it work out in the end. I just don't agree that Sheldon's pace is excessively slow or that it makes him look disinterested. It is probably due to my own perspective, that I think the fact that he's put himself in this situation with significant compromises on things like hand-holding from the beginning, just to keep her from dating other people, is proof enough that she's important to him. But I suppose, asexuals are 1% of the audience. They can't cater for us and our interpretations. If enough people agree that it looks like disinterest, I suppose they should and probably will respond to that concern and not mine. Sadly for me, but whatever.

 

I don't like the inconsistencies in their reasons for why he's uncomfortable touching her. Sometimes it's all about germs, as if to explain away their earlier hints towards true asexuality, but that explanation is used as as inconsistently as his germ phobia is used for everything else. It seems to me that his discomfort is more to do with the meaning of physical intimacy. A platonic or familial hug feels different to one that you know or can see in the eyes comes laced with lust, lustful expectations, or romance and romantic expectations (which are different things, though to this day I'm not sure what romantic feelings actually are or if what I experience qualifies as them). If you don't have any experience or understanding of those feelings yourself, then having someone express them "at you" is like being in a fully sexual encounter with someone you have no sexual interest in or comfort with that you only agreed to for reasons other than your own enjoyment. It can feel disturbing. But I might be incorrectly projecting that source of discomfort on to Sheldon. I'm never sure, because the writing inconsistencies on this show mean every single interpretation on this board has probably been right for at least one writer's mind on one episode, and maybe no interpretation is right overall because they don't have a shared vision.  :icon_confused:

Edited by nerdywordy
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I think that the way they have characterized Sheldon is that he's not truly asexual, just that up until he met Amy he had not been interested.  He has not been driven by libido, but I don't think they've labeled him as asexual.

In the original pilot, he was conceived as being somewhat sexual--turned on my female buttocks, experienced at masturbation, and at the end of the pilot, it was revealed that he had had sex with their female scientist friend.  By the time of the revised pilot, they'd left out the butt fetish and the sexual encounter, but he was still intending to masturbate for money.  They also had him being mildly flirty with Penny, even though he wasn't truly interested the way the other guys were.

 

At any rate, I think that the idea is that he's always considered sex and romance to be a waste of time better spent on solving the puzzles of the universe.  But then he met Amy and found himself drawn to her more than he had expected to be.  That doesn't mean that he's going to overcome his naiveté and his touch/germ anxieties just because he really likes her.

 

Yes, in real life, truly asexual people will have a difficult time with romantic/sexual relationships, but I don't think the writers here are intended to deal with it in a "realistic" or dramatic way, but rather in a positive, happy-ending way.  I think that they're going to take their time, but I really don't think they're going to doom Sheldon to a platonic relationship in the name of "reality" or asexuality.

As I've said elsewhere, I think that TPTB are really interested in happy endings all around as far as relationships are concerned.  The final happy endings may not become truly fulfilled until whenever the last season of the show may be, but I'm sure that's what they want.

 

 

Agree.  My daughter dated a man that was an autistic savant.  With everyone else he had very, very similar OCD like Sheldon, yet he had no problem hugging her, kissing her, etc. because he understood that it was part of being in a romantic relationship.   He was able to get past his fears and phobias enough to enjoy being close like that with her, but I know for a fact he couldn't even stand his family hugging him or anyone touching him otherwise.   She seems to always attract to those sort of guys.  She had another just like that after him and again, he was able to hug her and touch her when he couldn't stand being touched by other people.   So it can happen that even people who have no sexual drive or who hate being touched can learn to love a person and their touch.  Those are never easy romances, though.

 

 

I don't like the inconsistencies in their reasons for why he's uncomfortable touching her. Sometimes it's all about germs, but that explanation is used as as inconsistently as his germ phobia is used for everything else. It seems to me that his discomfort is more to do with the meaning of physical intimacy. A platonic or familial hug feels different to one that you know or can see in the eyes comes laced with lust, lustful expectations, or romance and romantic expectations (which are different things, though to this day I'm not sure what romantic feelings actually are or if what I experience qualifies as them). If you don't have any experience or understanding of those feelings yourself, then having someone express them "at you" is like being in a fully sexual encounter with someone you have no sexual interest in or comfort with that you only agreed to for reasons other than your own enjoyment. It can feel disturbing. But I might be incorrectly projecting that source of discomfort on to Sheldon. I'm never sure, because the writing inconsistencies on this show mean every single interpretation on this board has probably been right for at least one writer's mind on one episode, and maybe no interpretation is right overall because they don't have a shared vision.  :icon_confused:

 

 

I think this has continually been my biggest bugaboo with the show as well.   The writers have been terribly inconsistent with his germ/touch phobia line.   I do think he has a lot of repressed feelings and we do know that in S5 he talked to Leonard as if he were having some affectionate feelings and had imagined her with "bare" shoulders, etc.  He had never seen her bare shoulders at that point so that tells me he is capable of having some sort of sexually-lined fantasies about her and he said he had affectionate feelings as well.  So I don't think they really intend him to be asexual, but he definitely is repressing deep within him a lot of emotions and his sexuality in general.   That is why many wonder what will finally allow those floodgates to open up because eventually he is going to have battles that will lead him to finally either break up with Amy or enjoy the benefits of being her boyfriend fully and completely.   It sounded as if they were moving him along the latter path.   I hope they remain consistent and now move that forward (even if little by little) instead of continue with their push/resist method which does not seem to be working and is very stale since they had Leonard/Penny in push/resist for six years.   Time to come up with new ways to keep it slow but progressing.

Edited by stardustmelody

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His flirtation with Penny in the pilot is an anomaly, which pilots often have, but afterwards they soon had him established as such a character that flirtation with anyone became unthinkable. The masturbation wouldn't have meant anything anyway, as contrary to popular belief, sexual fantasies involving other people are not required for that activity. If you've got normal genitalia, you're good to go - especially so if you have a fetish that can take the place of human fantasies, such as sock puppets. :icon_wink: Don't get me wrong though, I'm pro-Shamy, in general. I agree that TPTB will probably make it work out in the end. I'm intrigued as to how.

 

I don't like the inconsistencies in their reasons for why he's uncomfortable touching her. Sometimes it's all about germs, but that explanation is used as as inconsistently as his germ phobia is used for everything else. It seems to me that his discomfort is more to do with the meaning of physical intimacy. A platonic or familial hug feels different to one that you know or can see in the eyes comes laced with lust, lustful expectations, or romance and romantic expectations (which are different things, though to this day I'm not sure what romantic feelings actually are or if what I experience qualifies as them). If you don't have any experience or understanding of those feelings yourself, then having someone express them "at you" is like being in a fully sexual encounter with someone you have no sexual interest in or comfort with that you only agreed to for reasons other than your own enjoyment. It can feel disturbing. But I might be incorrectly projecting that source of discomfort on to Sheldon. I'm never sure, because the writing inconsistencies on this show mean every single interpretation on this board has probably been right for at least one writer's mind on one episode, and maybe no interpretation is right overall because they don't have a shared vision.  :icon_confused:

 

All I'm saying is that they have never worked that hard at making him truly asexual, just as they have not labeled him as truly autistic, even if he displays the characteristics of both conditions.

 

Yes, they've been somewhat inconsistent with some of his objections, but I think that he has both a germ phobia and a disinclination toward physical touch.  I think it could be true that his resistance to touching Amy could be about the difference between romantic touching (hugging, kissing, handholding) and platonic/familial touching (being hugged by his mother, sister, or Penny), but they haven't come out and said that.

 

He's obviously reluctant to touch people in general, but I don't think they're trying to establish any kind of clinical diagnosis of his issues.  And I think that's for two reasons--one, they don't want to label him (it would be kind of unseemly to label him and then make jokes about that label, like "isn't it funny to watch the autistic guy struggle with where to sit, etc."), and two, they don't want to restrict or confine him by such labels, to prevent him from being able to evolve.

 

So, the issue becomes, what is it about Amy that moves him to take steps he wouldn't normally take?  Why is it he allows, even if it's a bit begrudgingly, the handholding in the movies and a couple of hugs from her (the consoling hug in Cooper/Kripke and the Valentine's Day hug, the Shiny Trinket hug)?  Because there's something about Amy that has begun to overcome his barriers and draw his interest into something he'd never given much thought.

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I think this has continually been my biggest bugaboo with the show as well.   The writers have been terribly inconsistent with his germ/touch phobia line.   I do think he has a lot of repressed feelings and we do know that in S5 he talked to Leonard as if he were having some affectionate feelings and had imagined her with "bare" shoulders, etc.  He had never seen her bare shoulders at that point so that tells me he is capable of having some sort of sexually-lined fantasies about her and he said he had affectionate feelings as well.  So I don't think they really intend him to be asexual, but he definitely is repressing deep within him a lot of emotions and his sexuality in general.  

 

Since they've started throwing out things like the shoulder line, I've thought he might be a very late bloomer, a pre-sexual, perhaps due to his lack of normal socialisation with peers, disinterest in other people in general, and focus on other things. I've never liked the idea of him being repressed all this time, as that would suggest he ever cared what others or the church thought about him, but I wouldn't mind if they eventually decided he had been a very late bloomer who was disturbed by his own sexual awakening and then repressed it - as it arose - to protect his self-image as non-sexual and prevent having to change his mind about how his life will be lived.

Edited by nerdywordy

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Yes, they've been somewhat inconsistent with some of his objections,...

Ya know, you could have ended that at inconsistent and it would have covered everything on the show.

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So, the issue becomes, what is it about Amy that moves him to take steps he wouldn't normally take?  Why is it he allows, even if it's a bit begrudgingly, the handholding in the movies and a couple of hugs from her (the consoling hug in Cooper/Kripke and the Valentine's Day hug, the Shiny Trinket hug)?  Because there's something about Amy that has begun to overcome his barriers and draw his interest into something he'd never given much thought.

 

 

I imagine that most Shamy shippers agree broadly on this: Meeting someone who's like you in ways most people aren't is intriguing, especially if you're so different to most people that relating or bonding significantly is usually difficult. He feels differently, in a mysterious way, about her and doesn't know what that means or what he wants or might eventually want. He's probably never even felt possessive of another person before. It's a very confusing, worrying predicament, hence he'd rather keep their dynamic static over time, and treat her as much like everyone else as possible, so he doesn't have to think about it.

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... Sounds like Chloe lol she has the tickets but she can't go.

 

Cathi, aka Scullycat (if memory serves), who was kind enough to write a taping report for us for 6.21 (The Closure Alternative), and brave enough to post it in on this forum, has tickets to the Sept 17th taping.  If no one else is going, she might write another report for us.

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You gotta love the people who give their time to provide us the taping reports. Thank you all.

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Kellee and I are here. We also have tickets for the 24th of September.

Oh Monique.. baby Thank you so much. We all are so grateful that you are doing this and for your taping reports and everything you had done and you will done for us... we all love you Monique

Edited by silverangel
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Thanks for Monique and Kellee! We all appreciate the efforts you guys make for us to give the tidbits about coming episodes. :)  Enjoy the evening!

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WB, Kellee :)

 

Hope you and Monique have fun tonight.

 

The picture is from the press release:

 

SHELDON AND PENNY BOND IN LEONARD’S ABSENCE, BUT IT’S SHELDON’S FEELINGS THAT ARE CRUSHED WHEN LEONARD RETURNS FROM THE NORTH SEA, ON A SPECIAL ONE HOUR OF THE SEVENTH SEASON PREMIERE OF “THE BIG BANG THEORY” THURSDAY, SEPT. 26

4a47a0db6e60853dedfcfdf08a5ca249.png

Regina King Returns as Mrs. Davis

“The Hofstadter Insufficiency” and “The Deception Verification” – Sheldon and Penny share intimate secrets while Leonard is away at sea, later, Sheldon’s feelings are crushed when Leonard returns.   Meanwhile, Raj gets consoled about his ex-girlfriend and Wolowitz’s relationship with his mother causes an unusual threat to his masculinity, on a special one hour of the seventh season premiere of THE BIG BANG THEORY Thursday, Sept. 26 (8:00 – 9:01 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network.  Regina King returns as Mrs. Davis, the University’s Director of Employee Relations, and Kevin Sussman returns as Stuart, the comic book store owner.

CHEAT TWEET: Shh! Don’t tell! Sheldon & Penny share intimate secrets on a bonus hour-long season premiere #BigBangTheory 9/26 @8PM ET/PT http://bit.ly/150pIo3

Edited by Puppy Chow
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