Spoilers The Shamy - Season 7 Spoilers Only Discussion Thread

[Lionne]

I know. I actually am with you on a lot of that.

 

This is one little thing with Amy...

 

Penny is veering all over bad girl friend land. And she isn't even drinking that much this season. Bernadette has only had 2 episodes where she hasn't been an active shrew...

 

In comparison, even putting up with the public ass slap, Amy looks sensational.

 

Good point.

 

I should also note that Amy has shown a lot more spine this year - they got her back on track in that regard after she took a certain amount of passivity at the tail end of last season. For instance, standing by and not arguing with it when Sheldon pointed out how she worshiped him, and how that worked in her favor in their relationship. This season has been spent rebuilding Amy's spine, and they've put a lot of ground work into that. That's why it's all that more frustrating to have it tossed aside for one particular joke. Same can also be said of Penny.

[Razberrypie]

Is the debate over now? Am I allowed to say I had fun? Or is it too soon

[phantagrae]

It's her personal issue, of course. However, if that's the type of woman that Amy becomes, I reserve the right to have zero respect for her, and switch over to the Shenny shipping team. That's how offensive I find it. It's a rotten portrayal of women, as far as I am concerned, and it is a feminist issue. I don't care if he touches her butt. I care about the context and manner in which he did this particular ass slapping, and in particular, I'm gobsmacked by Amy's particular reaction to it. Although I shouldn't be, perhaps, by how she took to the spanking.

 

The only "good" spot here is that I don't really think it's going to change anything, just like the Fish Guts spanking did. The controversary over that and over this is pretty much identical. Some people really have no issue with that at all, some people find it rather degrading to Amy's character. In particular, it seems to suggest that Amy is so desperate that she'll take anything with a sexual overtone to it. She won't be picky about it - whatever will happen, whether it's a spanking or a bath or anything else, that has Sheldon touching her is good with her.

 

That's not really something I respect, nor do I have to. If isn't real life people and their real life kinks - it's a character being shown up on screen, how she is being written and how she's being portrayed. If I feel that her portrayal isn't realistically feminine, and keeps falling into the hands of a team of Old Boy's Club, misogynistic writing, that's my call. 

 

In the end, I'm interested in how many people - even if they are defending the whole "get us a beer, little lady!" complete with hard smack to the ass - still say that they read the taping report and were flummoxed, and didn't know what to think. A lot of people are reserving judgement, but I'm not sure if anyone is really being all, "Yeah! Ass slapping and telling your woman to bring you a beer is love, bitch! Go fetch your man a beer and let him smack your pert derriere and maybe you'd stop being such an uptight mango, and understand the awesome, totally not offensive humor in this scene!"

 

Which is good, because if someone said that to me I would have to kill them.

 

But what kind of woman do you think Amy would become?

 

Maybe she is indeed desperate enough, in a way, to enjoy anything with a sexual overtone.  Would it have been better if he'd given her some kind of drunken kiss?  Would it have been better for her to accept that than a smack to her ass?

Whether or not she enjoys a smack on the butt has nothing to do with whether or not enjoying this particular smack on the butt is going to somehow turn her into a doormat or reveal Sheldon to be some kind of misogynist.

 

I'm not saying that Amy has to take whatever crumbs Sheldon might dish out and be thrilled about it, but I am saying that she might still enjoy it, even if he's not doing it as some kind of sexual favor.  He's not saying, "I will deign to give you this cheap thrill", but she might like it anyway, feminist or not.  That's what I meant in saying that she might just enjoy having her butt smacked by him.

 

Yes, this kind of humor isn't going to be funny for everyone, but I hardly think it is equal to some of the things you suggest (the inappropriate Halloween costumes you mentioned, for instance.)  If he'd smacked her on the ass in some other context and she enjoyed it, would that have been better--just so long as he's not telling her to fetch him a beer?  Maybe she's happy to fetch him a beer, ass slap or not.

 

Being a feminist doesn't mean that she can't give him some leeway, especially in a moment like this.  Was she being trodden over by him?  Or did she not mind going to fetch him that beer?

 

She's still her own person and in control of what she does or does not want or enjoy or allow or disallow.  I think that feminism means being your own person, even if that person isn't what others insist that you must be.

I remember some woman insisting that any woman with a college education owed it to society to be out there in the workforce and that any woman who did get an education and then chose to be a stay-at-home mother was somehow betraying her education, etc.

I maintain that a strong woman makes her own choices, including the choice to stay at home with the kids, as long as it is her own choice.

 

So if Amy chooses to let Sheldon's drunken slap/"order" slide, and enjoys the smack itself, then is that somehow making her into some abused, demeaned, subserviant dominated woman?  Or is she a woman who knows what she likes, and chooses when to object and when not to?

 

I'm pretty sure that the writers weren't trying to make a statement about feminism or about Amy being demeaned or anything else larger than the moment, and, yes, this kind of humor is kind of easy and obvious, but for Sheldon to do something like this is different than if it was one of the other guys because of who he is in particular, and I think that was mostly what they were going for--the shock at seeing Sheldon take on that persona--apparently imitating his father.

 

Did Amy suffer as a result of the joke?  Maybe, maybe not.  I do think that context will be important in that regard.

 

I wonder how the live audience reacted--were they scandalized or amused or what?  If they laughed, does that mean that the audience was full of misogynists with bad taste?

 

I like koops' take on it.

[LeaGold]

So, I'm new here but i've been lurking around for a while with my friend before deciding just to create a account since I lurk so much haha. I guess I picked hell of a time to join lol. 

 

But on everything that's going on, I know my opinion may offend some people or not be taken seriously because I'm a newbie here haha but I just wanted to say that in terms of Sheldon & Amy's scene from the taping report I didn't find anything really offensive about it but I was aware that the 'ass slap' would offend some people. Even the term itself sounds derogatory without context or tone or facial expressions to go off. I do understand the concern with Amy and feminism but It may be a bit much to accuse people or the writers or being sexist, ignorant, etc. after all comedy brings very serious topics into play and mocks them and tries to make it humor by juxtaposing the situation and much of the time people pass it off as humorous because the thinking is it's comedy and it's suppose to be funny therefore it shouldn't be taken seriously. While I believe this to an extent I also believe that there is such a thing of taking something to far. As a Native American there are times when I see things native related being portrayed in a light that I have mixed feelings about. Some of it is very stereotypical but i try not to get mad because I know not everyone is educated on the cultures of natives and what people do know is what people see on tv and that more often isn't a very good source of info because most of the time the p.o.v is from the outsider's perspective, whether a tv host, activist, hero like in Dances with Wolves but I don't make it a point to start a riot over it. I gently point out to people that this may not be a very good interpretation and it can be seen as offensive. 

 

And my culture is a matriarch where the women is in charge and is the way of inheritance and I believe I have feminist ideals but I don't consider myself feminist. But Amy's behavior may just mostly be to shock and not really considered anti-feminist but I do see how one could see as that. I myself wouldn't know how to reach to that situation if it happened to me having never been in a relationship and find intimacy like that a bit daunting. But that may just be due to me being shy. But my concern is bashing of her character for possibility enjoying and being 'submissive'. I've known several people who are very strong figures in their public life and work life but in the privacy of the bedrooms unwind so that the tension of being in control can wear away and let their partners worry about what goes in the bedroom or their home. But even my mom or grandmother who is very traditional in our culture would see that and laugh because god knows how many times my grandfather did that to my grandmother, the ass slap and the 'sexist' comments. But we knew he was never serious because he was traditional too and his playful eyes gave him away too so I suppose we all have to wait until we see the episode to gauge how serious and how playful it is. 

 

So, what I guess I'm trying to say is that it's not necessarily a good argument for all to start accusing each other that one's opinion is more right than another's simply because of perhaps a lack of understanding of a culture, ideal, or even character of a person or misconception, etc.We're all people in this world, and our job is to teach each other and keep learning how to survive in this world. Mistakes are bound to happen, some more serious than others. But for me personally, I'm 50-50 on the subject because of the varying factors at work. 

 

THis more than I wanted to say originally haha.

 

But aside from that, I'm happy that I decide on joining the forum! haha, i look forward to more discussion

[Karen Benavides]

How amy said to sheldon : "She is the best girlfriend he is never gonna have" and i understand she wants to have intimate relationship with her boyfriend like a normal couple, that's why i'm try to forget the slap because amy deserves more than that. I know tbbt is a show but when you love the characters you want good things happen to them.

Enviado desde mi GT-I9300 usando Tapatalk now Free

[MJistheBOMB]

I just think it's kinda interesting that even Disgusted is currently pointing out that Shamy shippers seem to lack feminist chops.

 

Seriously? Sad.

I think it's interesting that you agree. Which says that you're also among those who are okay with generalizing everyone as if we all share the same thoughts.

[Maddie]

Personally, I think turning this into a feminist issue is pretty silly. It's making a mountain out of molehill at its finest.

[MJistheBOMB]

Sheldon: be a lady and go get us beer, bitch!

Amy: *doing as he says*

Now THAT is when I would be offended. LOL!

[koops]

Ok, now I HAVE time to write (while my dinner cooks) so I'll give my 2 dollars

 

I think Lio has every right to be offended by the joke. It's a scene, and, as such, is open to interpretation. The line IS sexist if you look at it on its own, its origins are sexist and it is a line that is commonly used by misogynists to shut women up when they have no other valid argument to make. And so is the butt slap. In that sense, I think it is totally the classic case of the writers using oblivious innocent Shamy who don't know what they're really saying to get away with putting that on prime time television. So I can see why one would not take that lightly at all. Just like the spanking. If you look past the joke, it can be pretty wrong on many levels.

 

However, my take on it is that one needs to look at the context of the scene in terms of who the characters are and what the situation is. IMO, while butt slapping has sexist connotations, it is also something many many couples do in a jokey manner to each other, even with the whole "get me a beer/sandwich" line. It is something even friends do to each other. It is something Jim himself did to Mayim in front of an audience. It's one of those politically incorrect jokes that can be very wrong and inappropriate if you don't have a deep level of comfort and trust and confidence in the other person. And I think that's the crucial thing, in my opinion: it all depends on the relationship you have with the other person, in terms of whether you KNOW they mean it as sexist and degrading or not. As well as to whether you find it offensive as a person or not, of course. And it also depends on the time and place. There are times and places where I am sure Amy would have chopped his head off (she got incredibly angry at him for embarrassing with much less at the workplace) and times like this, when she's with her friends, and where she can take it as a clumsy/shocking/OOC attempt to flirt with her after just announcing to everyone how great he thinks she is.

 

She didn't come up to him telling him "Sheldon, apologize" and he said "Shut up, b***, and get me a beer". He was bossed into place by her (I love the fact that he couldn't care less what Bernadette ordered him to do, but as soon as Amy shows up he gets on his feet and apologizes immediately) and was so pleased with it that he announced "She's great, isn't she?" and then proceeded to slap her butt and send her off, as if that was a continuation of his compliment. We, as an audience, know that Sheldon doesn't even think of questioning what his father used to say, and often takes what his parents used to do literally and at face value without realizing the implications, and we know that he keeps using them as (unhealthy) templates for his relationship. We know he wasn't *really* being sexist (and that that's the reason the writers can get away with him saying stuff like that). If we know that, why do we expect Amy to react as if she didn't know how his head works? She knows Sheldon, and she knows he doesn't mean it in a sexist way and that this is a man who up to two weeks ago thought "Don't defecate where you eat", something that, again, his father used to say, was literal. I think that is why it would have been different had it been Howard or Leonard, because they know that is sexist.

 

Now, I'm not saying another girl in the same situation wouldn't have a right to be offended or pissed off! I can totally see why that would be the case. But what I totally disagree with is the assertion that there is no way a true feminist, or a truly brilliant, clever, educated woman would not have behaved like Amy did. I just hate speaking in general terms like that. I don't think one reaction to one instance of sexist flirting with her boyfriend of 3 years defines whether Amy is a feminist or whether we should strip her of all her degrees and IQ points. So yes, Amy maybe likes Sheldon slapping her butt, she likes bad boys and might have read a romance novel or two. But that's just a minuscule part of her personality. 99% of AFF is an accomplished scientist who can act very maturely and can whip her boyfriend into place when things really matter. Like him deciding she cannot work where he works, with no thought or regard as to how that will affect her or whether it will be a good opportunity for her career. So I don't agree with letting one questionable speck on her characterization be a pedestal to look down upon everything else that makes this woman (or any woman) brilliant.

 

If she had been slapped on the butt by a stranger in a bar and found that charming, then yes, I would have been disappointed in her. When I saw her get way too excited over boys buying her drinks in a bar, yes, I cringed a little. If Sheldon kept acting sexist towards her and she kept obeying, then yes, I'd find it degrading. And I personally found her sitting around to take Sheldon's SOBER snark about their relationship last season to be way more insulting to her character and their relationship than enjoying a bit of inappropriately sexist, drunken flirting from him. 

 

Would I be happier if the writers stopped using Shamy's aloofness and lack of filter as an excuse to get away with sexist and racist jokes? Yes. I don't think you need them to make good comedy and I would much rather they built the comedy around them based on other stuff. But I also don't think this one scene makes or breaks Amy or Sheldon or their relationship. Or that it's a sign of what their relationship is going to be like. I don't think this incident tells us anything that we didn't know about these characters already. She is the only one he listens and obeys to. When he is drunk he lets his inhibitions down. He uses his father as a template for behavior when he has no other frame of reference. And Amy knows him well enough to know when she feels she needs to tell him off (seeking revenge, telling her where she can or cannot work, embarrassing her at work, him comparing himself to a slave, and making fun of Howard) and when not. And she may or may not just enjoy the slaps on the butt. If that floats her boat... 

[Shamyfan]

I didn't care for the ass slap but bc of sexism. I wanted more feeling out of Sheldon when he was drunk.

I'm in Texas. We don't go around smacking ppl. I wish I could smack I few ppl I like and dislike. Lol

To make everyone happy, girls go smack your love or someone you know.

Ill smack my hubby tonight. Go get me a beer

Edited November 7, 2013 by Shamyfan

[rachelshamyfan]

Koops welcome back to the spoiler thread

[Susana Alcira]

Personally, I think turning this into a feminist issue is pretty silly. It's making a mountain out of molehill at its finest.

 

TOTALLY AGREE! YOU ARE WISE!    

[Karen Benavides]

I didn't care for the ass slap but bc of sexism. I wanted more feeling out of Sheldon when he was drunk.

i wanted that too.

Enviado desde mi GT-I9300 usando Tapatalk now Free

[MJistheBOMB]

Oh yes, I almost forgot to say to those who could not resist (which I called yesterday in the chat room):

Welcome back (INSERT EVIL LAUGHTER HERE).

[koops]

Koops welcome back to the spoiler thread

 

Thank you! But I might not stay long. I have a thesis to write and I should really stay out of here I've just given up on work for today.

[bigbangsheldon]

GREAT POST KOOPS! Seriously, it was amazing. You get 5 golden stars from me, and a smack on the butt. this is why we need you

[rachelshamyfan]

Koops stay spoiled!

[Razberrypie]

I would like to apologize to everyone for aiding in the discussion turning into a "feminist issue" I do need to control myself sometimes, lol. Anyway, this episode is a while off so I look forward to seeing it on screen. Until then I'm excited to watch Amy and Proton's matching orthopaedic shoes for the millionth time in the actual episode tomorrow, haha

 

 

P.S. and a welcome back koops from me too even if it may only last a while! 

[koops]

I think, more importantly, we need one person here to tell us whether it's a feminist issue or not. WHERE IS MARINA??? LOL

 

  <-- Marina

[Razberrypie]

LOL... oh I do miss marina  even though she'd probably smack me for my lack of knowledge on the whole thing!

Edited November 7, 2013 by Razberrypie

[bigbangsheldon]

I told Marina about your posts and she says she misses you so much!

[phantagrae]

Loved your post, koopsie!! Long time no see!

[Kiru Breezy]

OMG! I can view the forum at work but I can't log in.

Re: Butt Slap.

I looooooooooooooove it.

I'm consider myself a well educated progressive woman, a Chemical Engineer in a male dominated field.....and I like stuff like that...

When my bf gets a little caveman & calls me "Woman" & orders his sandwich...in a relationship it totally can add a little playfulness and flirtiness to the relationships, drunk or not. I totally identify with Amy here.

[koops]

To be honest, from reading the scene again, I'm not even sure what Amy is really smiling at/reacting to. She seems confused/shocked/amused and that's on the tail end of one hell of a drunk compliment from Sheldon in front of everyone. It could very well be that she's not sure what the hell is going on but she is shocked by how he was openly complimenting her in front of everyone and was so pleased about that that the sexist/slap didn't even register really or was overlooked. And I think the way he kept smiling at her until she disappeared through the door and she smiled at him was more a smile of general bliss at the current status of their relationship than the butt slap per se. I mean, the man is surely in love and not even trying to hide it anymore this season. I think between 7x04, 7x05, 7x06, their lovey-dovey-ness with Proton and now this "Ain't she great?" thing in front of everyone? These two are kind of on a blissful cloud at the moment. 

 

I just hope it leads to something more substantial soon, because, frankly, patience is getting thin around here and that's probably why everyone is so on the edge.

Edited November 7, 2013 by koops

[Marina]

Chloe told me you guys have been talking about me. I'm not staying - the reason why I chose to leave the forum in the first place was that it was too toxic for me and that it got on my nerves way, way too easily, and after reading this conversation, it looks like nothing has changed here.

 

Full disclaimer - while koops's points make a lot of sense, I'm with Lio on this one. I am deeply offended by this line and the smack. I don't think I need to explain how "fetch me a beer" and a smack is sexist in a general context, but in the context of the Shamy, it's still pretty terrible for me. I am tired of seeing an Amy so desperate for affection that she'll take about anything - even some aggressive redneck attitude. I didn't like Fish Guts either, for the exact same reason. I don't see a relationship where the man gives little scraps of affection as he sees fit and where the woman is so thirsty for love that she'll put her brain on pause as soon as she gets a little something as an example of feminism.

 

Unrelated, but not completely: I absolutely agree with Raz - a woman should decide what rules she feels are best for her and draw her own limits. But Amy is NOT a woman. She's a fictional character written by a bunch of men who probably don't have the first clue about feminism - giving Bernadette a higher salary than her husband's doesn't make your entire show a model of feminism, I'm sorry. This is where that whole thing doesn't sit well with me - especially since it doesn't get any resolution. The show has been sexist more than once over the years, but it always managed not to outrage me because it always came back to bite the sexist guy in the butt (except in Egg Salad which is making my blood boil just thinking about it). Had Amy come back with a beer and poured it on his lap, I would have been less angry. But there we have a bunch of men making a female character submissive to a drunken asshole (that's something else that is baffling me, btw: the whole "He's not himself, he's drunk" vibe I'm getting from some posts. A guy who drives drunk and kills a kid is 100% reponsible of his acts. It's the same with Sheldon)

 

So there. This doesn't make much sense, and I apologize. When Chloe told me about this conversation, I just wanted to come and check for myself. I wouldn't have posted because I felt like Lio was doing a very good job at explaining why she had hated the scene, but after reading other people's posts, I wanted to tell that I am absolutely disgusted by some of your remarks. No one "chooses" to be offended by sexism and I lost any respect I had for those of you who felt the need to tell Lio to "calm her tits" or "not get her panties in a twist" implying that she was just being angry for the sake of being angry. I find telling a woman expressing her anger at sexism that she needs to chill because it's played only for laughs ten times more disrespectful than the smack itself and I will not stay silent on such a passive aggressive condescension. Oppressed people don't choose to be oppressed and thinking that they do is... I don't even know what it is, that's how utterly disgusting thinking that is. 

 

I haven't been missing this forum save for a few people and remarks like those are the literal reason why. 

 

Now I'm back to being an angry man-hater in a corner of the Internet that doesn't include this forum.

 

 <-- why weren't you there when I used to live here??? you're the most perfect thing ever. ♥