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The Shamy - Season 7 Spoilers Only Discussion Thread

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 btw, can you explain the crushed can deal? I don't get it.

 

Ah yes! The can and the feelings it is making me feel! 

 

So to me, even bigger than the ass slap in 7.09 is what led to it--the decision that Sheldon makes to get drunk in the first place. It's Thanksgiving. He's in a situation he REALLY doesn't want to be in (he doesn't seem to enjoy Thanksgiving to begin with, likely because they trigger bad memories of his father/home life). All of the sudden Bernie's dad steps up and presents himself as a father figure and offers a beer. Sheldon could have very easily sat in the corner all day and acted like a brat (which was his original plan), but he accepted that beer and decided that he was going to make up for those horrible Thanksgivings and relive them more positively. He decides to get off of his high horse and do what "normal guys"  do on Thanksgiving. He's going to drink beer and sit on the couch with his father/figure and watch the game. Moreover, he's going to get pissing drunk and enjoy himself. It's a conscious decision to get drunk and let himself go knowing full well what that means. It plays into the whole trying to be more normal kick he's been on for a while...the self improvement. This is a chance to be a "normal guy" in the biggest way, and he takes it. It also plays into the slap, because to Sheldon, it's  very "normal guy" (modeled by his father) behavior to slap your girl on the ass and ask for a beer. It's part of the whole experience that he so obviously wants. That's a big deal, but to me, it's heartbreaking. Sheldon's been so "proud" of his not being normal his entire life, but as he's become more aware of his issues, he's realized that not being "normal" has it's price, especially when you're in a relationship that you are committed to and hope to see move forward. And THAT is what it comes down to...he's trying to be a normal guy, which is not easy for him, because that's what it's going to take to be with Amy (as she made it abundantly clear at the beginning of season six). And that's more important than his grand delusions (that were so easy and comfortable to maintain) ever were, thus the effort. That's why in the end, this whole episode is so awesome to me (and yes, even the stupid ass slap, which I cannot possibly be mad at Sheldon about because I know where it comes from in him. He wants to be "normal" because that's what Amy wants, and what he wants to make himself better and be with her, and that's what he perceives "normal guy" behavior to be, thanks to his dad). 

 

...which brings me to the crushed can. There is no way that anyone can convince me that Sheldon Cooper would ever crush a beer can, even when drunk. That behavior is so uncharacteristically "normal" for Sheldon, that the beer can is the material representation of everything that I said above...and it just does things to me.

 

ETA:

 

Plus, what notchinc said.  ;)  

Edited by NutMeg
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The crushed can signifies that Sheldon took Mike's invitation to join him for beer and football to actual heart.  It may have started as politeness, but throughout the activity he grew to thoroughly enjoy the moment.  He's carefree and is truly enjoying himself, despite himself.  He switched chairs (closer contact to Mike), he belches Pi (showing off to Mike) and he crushes the beer can cause he crushed that SH*T.  When I crush cans, its after I thoroughly enjoy a cold one and I show the can my appreciation by crushing it.  

 

Plus it displays elevated testosterone levels. :good:

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Thanks for the explanation Meg.

The thing is, this is where I hope you are off in your assessment of the matter. Not because I'm against the idea of Sheldon letting go here and there, but because I hope that this episode had more to do with him longing for a father figure than it is about him feeling he has to change into a "normal" guy for Amy. I totally hate the idea that Amy would want him to be "normal" and for him to want to change in order to please her is the same kind of message that people have been objecting to when Sheldon was put in a relationship in the first place: that character growth = normality and that one cannot live their lives differently. If Amy wanted a normal guy she would have not stuck with him for so long. I despise how they characterized her in S6 where she expected him to be conventionally romantic and I hope that was just a phase Amy had to go through to realize that isn't what works for them or what she wants (hence how it all stopped after Valentine's Day), rather than a sign that growth = becoming normal and Amy was growing.

To me, it is one thing for Sheldon to be aware of his baggage and what is keeping him from having the intimacy he might be starting to desire with Amy. And working on them. That is something that is detrimental for his life and therefore something he needs to overcome to be happy. But to turn into a regular guy where all the other aspects of his personality are concerned is not what I want to see. I don't particularly like the idea that the symbolism behind Sheldon drinking beer and watching football is that his character growth involves becoming a regular guy and that this is what he desires underneath it all, especially if it is something he feels he has to do just for Amy.

I do think he took the can because he realized there is nothing wrong with drinking a beer and get off his high horse every once in a while. And I do think not having a good father when he was younger, and not for very long, is something that hurt him more than he let on. And so now that he has a tendency to try and be more relaxed and less upright, he thought he could give Mike a shot. But I do also think he got drunk the way Sheldon usually does: quickly and without really meaning to. And that crushing the cans is more a sign of him being able to let go of perfection and control, rather than longing for "normality" because that is true happiness and that is what Amy desires. This show has always been about people living life on their own terms, and it is a great message that I wouldn't want to be lost for a story of normalizing the weirdos.

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I totally agree, and I think I should clarify. I don't believe for a second that Sheldon wants to be "a normal guy" in the majority of aspects that define him. I don't think he ever could be even if he wanted to, and that's good. After all, while drinking, he burped places of Pi...we love that about him, and I'm sure that he loves things like that about himself and has no desire to change. However, the things you mentioned, the attitude on intimacy is one that he's held and been defined by that I think he realizes must be laid to rest. As he's working on personal self improvement, he's changing things about himself that are directly related to intimacy...empathy, expression of feelings, issues of trust amd control. In those ways, I believe he is trying to "normalize", or perhaps the better term would be "de-Sheldonize". The things that he does in this episode deal with those issues, letting go, losing control a bit. I was struck by how very "normal" the whole line of behavior choices were. These were not the actions of "Sheldon Cooper with all of the letters behind his name Robot Homo Novus HEY EVERYONE COME SEE HOW SMART I AM" that man is an illusion. Who Sheldon is trying to be here is Sheldon, just him....without (most of) the crippling defense mechanisms. That's what I mean when I say "normal"...in reality, it's not even close. Sheldon has no intention of changing who he fundamentally is for himself or Amy or anyone, if anything, he's interested in strengthening and coming to terms with who he really is. Part of that does require some embrace of more "normal" behavior, ( and again "healthy" might be a better word here than normal, because for many of Sheldon's behaviors, he sits way outside the range of healthy or normal...some of these behaviors are fine and will likely never die, but others must change since his life priorities have changed) but as far as any sweeping personality changes, Sheldon trying to shift into average Joe would completely defeat the point.

Edited by NutMeg
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I like the definition that he is trying to be "Sheldon", rather than "Sheldon Cooper BS MS PhD Scd OMG Homo Nouvs 187 IQ". That is a very apt one. We've always seen Sheldon trying to hide aspects of his personality that sometimes end up coming out sideways, especially when it comes to attachment to his friends. It's the classic "unfolding like a flower" metaphor. We've only seen the tightly closed exterior of the flower but there's more hiding inside it, and we have occasionally had peeks at it but they're becoming more and more frequent as he builds more trust in the people around him. And I do wonder if the only person he's ever been completely unfolded with is his Meemaw.

 

On another note, I was just thinking about little ways that they could hint at a deeper level of understanding and comfort between Shamy when it comes to intimacy without yet biting the Sheldon bullet or resorting to the usual frustrated-Amy jokes. I thought it would be funny if Sheldon were to be hanging out with the girls (btw, I really want to have another girls+Sheldon night out: 4x21, kiss or not, was a riot and Sheldon works SO well with each of the girls that it is incredible to watch, one episode of that is simply not enough) and maybe Penny and Bernie are making girl sex-chat and he comes out with something like "Oh, no, Amy wouldn't like that." and they're all (including Amy) "What do you know?".  So he goes on a long Sheldon-style monologue about what she did or didn't like in their D&D roleplay and how he used his power of deduction to conclude that she OBVIOUSLY would never enjoy whatever it is they're talking about. And Amy's expression in the end changes from WTF to "Mmm. You're right.", while the other two are still "WTF?". It can be done in a way that makes it sound like he is totally being rational and clinical about it but at the same time very much in tune with working out what pushes her buttons.

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Thank You for your posts Meg!

 

I totally agree, and I think I should clarify. I don't believe for a second that Sheldon wants to be "a normal guy" in the majority of aspects that define him. I don't think he ever could be even if he wanted to, and that's good. After all, while drinking, he burped places of Pi...we love that about him, and I'm sure that he loves things like that about himself and has no desire to change. However, the things you mentioned, the attitude on intimacy is one that he's held and been defined by that I think he realizes must be laid to rest. As he's working on personal self improvement, he's changing things about himself that are directly related to intimacy...empathy, expression of feelings, issues of trust amd control. In those ways, I believe he is trying to "normalize", or perhaps the better term would be "de-Sheldonize". The things that he does in this episode deal with those issues, letting go, losing control a bit. I was struck by how very "normal" the whole line of behavior choices were. These were not the actions of "Sheldon Cooper with all of the letters behind his name Robot Homo Novus HEY EVERYONE COME SEE HOW SMART I AM" that man is an illusion. Who Sheldon is trying to be here is Sheldon, just him....without (most of) the crippling defense mechanisms. That's what I mean when I say "normal"...in reality, it's not even close. Sheldon has no intention of changing who he fundamentally is for himself or Amy or anyone, if anything, he's interested in strengthening and coming to terms with who he really is. Part of that does require some embrace of more "normal" behavior, ( and again "healthy" might be a better word here than normal, because for many of Sheldon's behaviors, he sits way outside the range of healthy or normal...some of these behaviors are fine and will likely never die, but others must change since his life priorities have changed) but as far as any sweeping personality changes, Sheldon trying to shift into average Joe would completely defeat the point.

 

Amen to your post, especially the parts in bold! Thank you Meg for your  posts, great insights. I totally agree with you. I don't want Sheldon to change to someone who he really isn't, it's better that those things that are good, those things we love in him, won't change. He doesn't need to be too normal. What is sweet and adorable in him really, doesn't need to change. I believe Amy doesn't want that either. She loves him for who he truly is. Of course she sees his flaws, defense mechanisms, the surface of him and all that stuff, but she's able to see through them to the deeper level what's inside his heart, and that is why she loves him, what she sees there. Amy believes in Sheldon, that he is capable to meet her every level of a real relationship some day, that he is capable to love her fully and thoroughly, in their own ways. She has faith in him, if anyone else doesn't have. I believe that encourages  Sheldon to work with his issues even harder.

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It's funny how everything in life is a matter of priorities at the end of the day. And I think that's what people miss the point of when they complain about Sheldon (or anyone in real life really) doing X or Y and how OOC that might be. It's always a cost-benefit analysis: what would be worse? To do X and obtain Y or to stick to Z and not have Y? Most of the time, especially when it comes to Sheldon, Y isn't all that important after all, and so he will stick to Z. But in the rare occasions where Y is worth it, nobody in their right mind would stick to Z out of principle. And that's why they're called exceptions. And of course exceptions will come across as OOC, or they wouldn't be exceptions in the first place. But there's a difference between making exceptions and turning into a totally different person.

 

Now, I know a lot of people also say "But this is fiction, who cares if Sheldon would be happier letting go of Z in order to have Y, I just want him to be funny!". And I understand that, to a certain extent, although I personally would get bored of stories that go nowhere (hence my current impatience with Shamy). But I also think it's easy to say "Writer, keep making the same thing funny over and over for 10 years!" when you don't have to actually think of how to do it. It's easy to do very early on when everything is uncharted territory, but the more you write, the more you run out of ideas. That is mathematically inevitable. Story telling isn't a bottomless well. If you want to make that argument, then it's better to say the show should have called it quits in S3. But it's obvious from the writers' interviews that they weren't trying to restrict themselves just to write a bunch of jokes about a few nerdy scientists, but that their aim was to take them somewhere in their lives. And that's where they're taking all of them. What I find it odd how you have people complaining that the show has changed too much and at the same time complain that the same jokes and the same stories keep being recycled over and over or that the show doesn't take risks. But I'm going off on a tangent here, so I'll stop. :p

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Same old same old. What you just said and what every resonable person keep repeating is worthy for every other show. If TBBT wants to stay funny and not repetitive for 3 new seasons, progress is a NEED. That's it, end of story. If you think otherwise, you're just delusional. No matter how well constructed your argumentation is against those poeple, "haters gonna hate"...

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I am not sure if this has already been expressed here--because I have been too busy to read or get caught up on this thread. But can I say that I am slowly growing disenchanted with The Big Bang Theory and the Shamy? It's not the actors--I still love them and I think they are doing their jobs. It's the writing and the overall arcs the writers are taking with the characters. I want to scream in frustration because it feels like no relationship is moving forward. No progress is being made. We are just stuck in this place where we keep stepping back, revisiting old wounds and tired jokes. It's like I am stuck in Big Bang purgatory or something. At least once an episode, we have to be reminded of the following details (like we don't already know):

 

1. Leonard wants to marry Penny.

2. Penny isn't ready for marriage to anyone.

3. Bernie is frustrated by Howard's laziness and selfishness.

4. Howard is aware of Bernie's frustration and unwilling to do anything about it but make jokes and give lame apologies before diving back into his boorish behavior.

5. Raj is lonely and pathetic when it comes to women.

6. Amy wants a more intimate closeness with Sheldon and is frustrated by their lack of progress.

7. Sheldon is aware of Amy's frustration, but is not willing or able to do anything about it. Therefore, he makes the once-a-show caustic remark to her.

8. Leonard and Sheldon are friends and no one--not even them--know why. Their being friends, however, doesn't stop them from torturing each other to bits.

9. Raj and Howard have an almost unhealthy dependence on each other that features a lot of homoerotic tendencies.

10. Howard's mother is fat, lazy, fat, a great cook, fat, too dependent on her son, fat, stereotypical Jewish mother, and, did I mention, fat?

 

And, most of all, if I have to watch one more episode where Sheldon makes some ignorantly-veiled reference to Amy about how she doesn't know how hard it is to be frustrated/wait for something she wants/etc while she thins her lips and says "Must be a real drag," I am going to scream. Seriously. Are we meeting a quota with that joke or something? It was mildly funny the first time, but now it is just annoying and makes me think Sheldon is a clueless ass and Amy is a moron for being in love with such a clueless ass.

 

Please, writers, give me something to go on. I don't need much. One step forward for each of the characters. It doesn't have to be a lot. Just a toe forward. But, whatever you do, do not take that toe back. You gave it to the audience, now own that you gave it to them and build on it. Most of all, give me something that makes me really laugh; that inspires me to write, to love, and to be; makes me release a heartfelt sigh, or, at least, makes me not want to turn the channel.

 

PS-- It is hard to write fanfiction for a show and characters I am starting to dislike. This is why I never completely fixed Fifty Shades of Grey--because, believe me, I could write circles around that author and someone certainly needs to fix that mess of a trilogy.

Edited by Misophonia
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Well Fifty Shades of Grey isn't much but a three book porno once you get down to the core of it. I'm sure she's a great writer but I haven't read anything else by her so I have no clue of her writing spectrum. Actual novels or short stories not fan fiction by her. Not that I'm bashing fan fiction, I read fan fiction from time to time to take a break from all the reading for my English classes haha. But I suppose you can make that argument about a lot of novels if you were to say this novel is this at its core (not necessarily porno but things like racist or a book about trains, etc.)

I agree with koops that writing isn't a bottomless well of ideas and eventually that well will run dry because in the literary world there are only like 7 or so stories and everything is a variation of those stories. I'm not entirely convinced with this idea but I can see its argument. I do agree that progress is needed but I would have it be in character at the characters pace rather than the writers forcing the writing because when a writer forces a story out of its not pleasant haha i mean im sure it'll be okay but it's not as great as it could have been.

:)

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I love it when people say that they can write circles around professional authors.  It cracks me up!

Read my stories--any of them. I can do what I said I can do.

 

And seeing as how E.L. James started 50 Shades as a fanfiction take on Twilight, I would say she is as much a professional writer as I am a professional rodeo cowboy.

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I love it when people say that they can write circles around professional authors.  It cracks me up!

 

Being famous doesn't necessarily make you a professional. The word professional implies you are highly skilled at what you do and highly skilled is not a phrase I would use to describe E. L. James. 

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LOL! Miso! I love how that woman essentially turned a fanfic into a published book and made millions just by changing the names of the characters and people think she's a "writer". haha. I've never read the books, but I love to remind people who love it that it was a Twilight fanfic and look at their facial expressions at that revelation. (Btw, I had never seen Twilight before watching the Honest Trailer of it, and holy crap, what is up with all that creepy staring?). The internet is probably full of fanfics that are way better than that and will never make a penny. The sad state of popular literature. *sigh*

 

Anyway, yes, people have been expressing your frustrations for pages and pages :p You're not alone, believe me.

 

I'm trying to remind myself that we are really only on episode 10. Season 4 didn't really get real good until the golden Pryia-era started around mid-season and from then through to the end of S5 it was, IMO, the best TBBT has ever been, it just needed the addition of more science, which, thankfully, we have this year. So I'm trying to be optimist and keeping my fingers crossed that we might be on the verge of another Pryia-era of sorts that will take us to the end of S8. But I'm trying not to bet any internal organs on it, I still need them.

 

Btw, Bill has been ranting about someone incessantly tweeting 'constructive' criticism at him. Is it one of you guys? :p 

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I am not sure if this has already been expressed here--because I have been too busy to read or get caught up on this thread. But can I say that I am slowly growing disenchanted with The Big Bang Theory and the Shamy? It's not the actors--I still love them and I think they are doing their jobs. It's the writing and the overall arcs the writers are taking with the characters. I want to scream in frustration because it feels like no relationship is moving forward. No progress is being made. We are just stuck in this place where we keep stepping back, revisiting old wounds and tired jokes. It's like I am stuck in Big Bang purgatory or something. At least once an episode, we have to be reminded of the following details (like we don't already know):

1. Leonard wants to marry Penny.

2. Penny isn't ready for marriage to anyone.

3. Bernie is frustrated by Howard's laziness and selfishness.

4. Howard is aware of Bernie's frustration and unwilling to do anything about it but make jokes and give lame apologies before diving back into his boorish behavior.

5. Raj is lonely and pathetic when it comes to women.

6. Amy wants a more intimate closeness with Sheldon and is frustrated by their lack of progress.

7. Sheldon is aware of Amy's frustration, but is not willing or able to do anything about it. Therefore, he makes the once-a-show caustic remark to her.

8. Leonard and Sheldon are friends and no one--not even them--know why. Their being friends, however, doesn't stop them from torturing each other to bits.

9. Raj and Howard have an almost unhealthy dependence on each other that features a lot of homoerotic tendencies.

10. Howard's mother is fat, lazy, fat, a great cook, fat, too dependent on her son, fat, stereotypical Jewish mother, and, did I mention, fat?

And, most of all, if I have to watch one more episode where Sheldon makes some ignorantly-veiled reference to Amy about how she doesn't know how hard it is to be frustrated/wait for something she wants/etc while she thins her lips and says "Must be a real drag," I am going to scream. Seriously. Are we meeting a quota with that joke or something? It was mildly funny the first time, but now it is just annoying and makes me think Sheldon is a clueless ass and Amy is a moron for being in love with such a clueless ass.

Please, writers, give me something to go on. I don't need much. One step forward for each of the characters. It doesn't have to be a lot. Just a toe forward. But, whatever you do, do not take that toe back. You gave it to the audience, now own that you gave it to them and build on it. Most of all, give me something that makes me really laugh; that inspires me to write, to love, and to be; makes me release a heartfelt sigh, or, at least, makes me not want to turn the channel.

PS-- It is hard to write fanfiction for a show and characters I am starting to dislike. This is why I never completely fixed Fifty Shades of Grey--because, believe me, I could write circles around that author and someone certainly needs to fix that mess of a trilogy.

I want to marry this post. Amen to that.

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Btw, Bill has been ranting about someone incessantly tweeting 'constructive' criticism at him. Is it one of you guys? :p

I checked this out cause I thought it was possible.

But it was some guy tweeting him like 19 times like, "TOO MANY RELATIONSHIPS!!!"

Edited by bigbangsheldon
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I saw that. It was some guy from Germany or something complaining about ruining the show by having the relationships as prominent plot lines.

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I haven't read 50 Shades or Twilight, so technically I'm still winning. :girldance:

 

I think I mentioned this somewhere earlier, or maybe it was in chat the other day, but when they were searching for an actor to star in the 50 Shades movie (after that other guy wisely backed out...) I guess someone asked that woman who she would like and she apparently said that she'd always pictured Robert Pattinson as the male lead.  Gee, I wonder why...

 

There was some pretty hilarious critique of the 50 shades book that someone on the X-Files boards found.  I've never read more than the excerpts posted in that critique, but, man, was it crap.

People in the entertainment news gush about the "mommy porn" aspect of it, but there are many an XF fic that could fill that slot with much better writing.

 

It wouldn't take much to out-write that girl.

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Even though I am taking a break from watching, I have been reading the threads.  I agree wholeheartedly with Miso and yet also hold hope in Raz's comments.  However you do get to a point where when it is so repetitive and stagnant that you need to take a break because you find yourself yelling all the time about the same things over and over.   I am hoping by stepping back, and giving the writers time to make that leap, I will be a happier viewer sometime in the future.   For now, the break is good for me. It helps me put this whole show back into perspective; its to entertain me and not frustrate me. 

 

I do agree with Koops' comments above as well about Sheldon being Sheldon and not wanting to see him change into a "normal" guy.   It is one thing to have "normal" desires for Amy and want to express those, but quite another to take on a "normal" personna in all other things.   I also agree with Meg's comments.  Let's hope your hypotheses about it 7.10 leading to a step in progress is correct.   Then I will be able to come back and enjoy again.  Miss all of you lovelies!

 

Oh and Holly, you simply must read Miso's stories.  She is a professional writer and her stories are top-notch!

Edited by stardustmelody
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I understand and agree with many of the frustrations a lot of us have but like Raz said, it's not the end of the world. I will just continue to enjoy the ride too. Whether we like it or not, where the writers take this whole thing is out of our control so we can't get so worked up over it. Especially since they always manage to pleasantly surprise us time and time again. I think we can all agree that Shamy is doing so well this season. I LOVE how Sheldon has dropped some of his rude remarks towards Amy and has gone back to adoring her for who she is like she does he. It's so cute!

Here's a interesting topic for discussion: are the writers holding off on Sheldon kissing Amy because they know that coitus wouldn't be much further down the road after that?

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I think the writers are holding off to create this HUGE build-up to it.  They know every one is starting to ask what the deal is.  The question is whether or not the scene/episode will live up to the hype in my opinion.  I don't know if coitus would come so soon after a kiss.  That's a mighty big leap!

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