Spoilers The Shamy - Season 7 Spoilers Only Discussion Thread

[phantagrae]

I also love how the part he's supposed to squeeze to get the water to squirt is right at his crotch of all places. Hahaha. I couldn't help but notice as I watched it on TV.

 

I think it's in his left hand in his jacket pocket.

[koops]

The squirter is in his pants pocket but on the left. 

 

I've just checked previous episodes and the monkeys do make their first appearance in Fish Guts, and we know that was deliberate. I really wish they had gone with the original monkey idea instead of showing the stuff on screen. Last episode before that that we saw Amy's apartment was TLA and the monkeys are not there. I really want to keep track of where they place them from now on

[phantagrae]

The squirter is in his pants pocket but on the left. 

 

I've just checked previous episodes and the monkeys do make their first appearance in Fish Guts, and we know that was deliberate. I really wish they had gone with the original monkey idea instead of showing the stuff on screen. Last episode before that that we saw Amy's apartment was TLA and the monkeys are not there. I really want to keep track of where they place them from now on

 

"Just monkeys, monkeys, monkeys."

[rachelshamyfan]

Am wondering if they were there even in s5 and 4 now

Maybe have to go back and see

[MJistheBOMB]

I assumed he had it there and was sitting on it or something thanks to the placement of his right hand. LOL!

[Susana Alcira]

Which episode is TLA?  Fish Guts was 6 x10!    

Edited November 20, 2013 by Susana Alcira Cairó

[stardustmelody]

Which episode is TLA?  Fish Guts was 6 x10!    

TLA was 5.23 episode.

[Susana Alcira]

Still without clues about 7 x11? Will it be a HOLIDAYS episode? Who knows about it? Nobody!?!?

Edited November 20, 2013 by Susana Alcira Cairó

[denajeanx]

I don't think we will know anything until after tape night. No one is going as of right now so we will probably just get a very brief summary, if that.

[stardustmelody]

I don't think we will know anything until after tape night. No one is going as of right now so we will probably just get a very brief summary, if that.

Are we sure no one is going?  I thought Tomasina got standby tickets for the next one and the one after as well.

[phantagrae]

Are we sure no one is going?  I thought Tomasina got standby tickets for the next one and the one after as well.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure she's got standby tickets for the next two tapings.

Still without clues about 7 x11? Will it be a HOLIDAYS episode? Who knows about it? Nobody!?!?

Since we haven't had any sides or random tweets, we don't have any advance information, but Tuesday will come soon enough.

[rachelshamyfan]

Isn't Monique going to 7'12??

[Chiany]

Let's hope so, otherwise I need to go in therapy without a lot of weeks without spoilers...

[Catlina]

So what does the three wise monkeys stand for? Has it been discussed what they represent? 

[koops]

In the original idea for Fish Guts, the camera was meant to span to the three monkeys as soon as the "naughty" stuff started happening (Jim has mentioned this more than once in interviews, he talks about it at Paley too), which would have been so much better than what they ended up doing. Sometimes less truly is more. So they were meant to represent ambiguity about whether what happened off screen was innocent or not so innocent. I'm sure Lio can come in and write her essay about this anytime They were deliberately put in for that reason, they are not seen in any previous episode. 

[Chiany]

In the original idea for Fish Guts, the camera was meant to span to the three monkeys as soon as the "naughty" stuff started happening (Jim has mentioned this more than once in interviews, he talks about it at Paley too), which would have been so much better than what they ended up doing. Sometimes less truly is more. So they were meant to represent ambiguity about whether what happened off screen was innocent or not so innocent. I'm sure Lio can come in and write her essay about this anytime They were deliberately put in for that reason, they are not seen in any previous episode. 

 

I understand the less is more statement, but I am glad they changed their mind about it.

We had seen so few moments of true intimacy between Amy & Sheldon, I liked the way they portrayed it.

[koops]

I guess I don't really count the spanking as a moment of true intimacy at all. And I'm not much of a fan of the way they portrayed those scenes as Sheldon being detached and oblivious to the sexual connotations while Amy was almost a horndog. There was way too much playing on Amy's sexual awareness and Sheldon's ambiguity for me to really enjoy those scenes, whereas panning to the monkeys would have left the ambiguity to both and left you wonder what was going on between them. I'm really glad the bath happened off camera for that reason.

 

My favorite moments from that episode are the part where Sheldon goes back to take care of her and the part where he reads to her. That, to me, is very sweet and intimate and domestic and showing such a nurturing and kind side of Sheldon. 

[NutMeg]

I completely agree here, Koops. That scene just KILLS me, because they were *so close* to making that spanking scene have some real meaning. The three monkeys (in Western culture at least, I'm pretty sure it means something different in the East...must consult the monkey expert, Lio) means morally "looking away" or turning away from moral responsibility for something that you would consider inappropriate, feigning ignorance. Since these monkeys were specifically brought in (and made a big deal about) for this scene, then there would be no other conclusion to make than Sheldon is feigning ignorance about what he's actually doing. He's aware of what this means, but he's using the punishment excuse to allow himself to morally cover his eyes to the whole thing. That would have been huge. Instead, we have a scene that shows a disconnect between Sheldon and Amy's motivations, and it creates a situation showing very little actual intimacy (again, more intimacy was shown in the care that he gave to Amy in prior scenes). To me, that scene shows  two people that aren't on the same page, and I don't like seeing that with Sheldon and Amy, who operate very much in sync. 

 

Even still, I would like to think that the writers had that intention with making Sheldon's motivations for the spank more than what they were, and in the last minute someone decided to go with shock over substance, so the intentions are still there? Maybe? It's difficult to spin that since removing the monkeys  made Sheldon's motivation so unclear. (Lord knows I keep trying to spin it, though.) I do find it interesting that many people who really enjoyed that scene immediately picked up on the idea that Sheldon was more aware than he was letting on, without any clear indication from the writers...I wonder if it's Jim's acting (as he said he had prepared for the scene with the monkeys all week) that made some people instinctively pick up on this? Or maybe it's just a preconceived notion of where Sheldon is in his sexual development, which would also be valid...I mean, this was just a little while after he made a full blown (ha...pun not intended) chicken pecking joke, so some feigned innocence might not be uncharacteristic here, whether it was spelled out for us with the monkeys or not. Still though, just watching the scene alone, it's unclear to me, which drives me crazy because I can tell that the writers originally wanted to go a different way with it. 

 

All of that aside, the episode does point out their developing intimacy with everything that Sheldon did to help her, and the frank discussion about trust that happened towards the end. That was all beautiful, and was a good lead up to Love Spell where Sheldon explains that he feels extremely close to Amy...we can really see that in action way back in Fish Guts.

Edited November 20, 2013 by NutMeg

[Chiany]

I do find it interesting that many people who really enjoyed that scene immediately picked up on the idea that Sheldon was more aware than he was letting on, without any clear indication from the writers...I wonder if it's Jim's acting (as he said he had prepared for the scene with the monkeys all week) that made some people instinctively pick up on this?

 

Well, I think he was aware of the sexual meaning it had (for Amy), because of the line that she should not be enjoying this.

 

And I understand that it might have had more meaning if they had chosen not to show the spanking at all.

After watching Jim explaining the original plan (on the Paley fest panel), I felt they went half way between doing it the 3 monkey way (not showing the naughty) and showing it all.

 

They did show the spanking and the vaporub rubbing (assuming that was the first naughty?), but chose not to show the bathing scene.

[Lionne]

I guess I don't really count the spanking as a moment of true intimacy at all. And I'm not much of a fan of the way they portrayed those scenes as Sheldon being detached and oblivious to the sexual connotations while Amy was almost a horndog. There was way too much playing on Amy's sexual awareness and Sheldon's ambiguity for me to really enjoy those scenes, whereas panning to the monkeys would have left the ambiguity to both and left you wonder what was going on between them. I'm really glad the bath happened off camera for that reason.

 

The whole point of the monkeys, I think, was to underscore that not all was what it seemed with the ambiguity of Sheldon's intentions, though. Which is why I was pleased to see them pop up again in regards to the flower, especially the way they seemed to be peeking just at the space in the air where Amy's nose would meet the flower on Sheldon's jacket. I think it's interesting that in the spanking scene, originally what was behind Sheldon and Amy was a bunch of books held in place with heavy bookends. Here the books were moved in order to make a place for the monkeys, so you know that their placement was very deliberate - the monkeys were "watching," and you could not miss seeing them. They were pretty central to the scene.

 

A lot is made about Sheldon's "deal," and precisely how innocent he is, especially as we're heading into the midpoint of the 7th season. Over in another thread I read a whole debate about how Sheldon has changed - or not changed, or changed organically, or what have you - and how organic this has been. Despite all of the forward movement in his relationship with Amy, and the obvious fact that he's gone from "take me off my hands" to "she's not for you" to "I am going to allow us to call you my girlfriend" to "what we have is extremely intimate" to "my cute little lump of wool - she's mine!" and etc, they continue to play the game of "what's Sheldon's deal" very close to the vest. There are still several people who will swear up and down that Sheldon is asexual and that the two of them are never going to be intimate, and that sex (ever) is the furthest thing from Sheldon's mind.

 

The monkeys seem to completely undercut that assertion. They are a hint, this little statue, that despite whatever is going on on the surface with whatever Sheldon is doing, there's something "not so innocent" at all about his ulterior motives. The monkey don't show up for Amy and her stuff - her desire for Sheldon is painfully clear. Underscore on painfully - they have had several episodes where it's not just a joke, but the main punchline of the entire episode. Amy's "in the zone" tag to end an episode, and the more recent "look" on her face to Sheldon's "wait and wait for satisfaction" line. We know what Amy wants - at least out on the surface - but in the meantime it seems ever more improbable that this will happen with Sheldon seeming so oblivious a lot of the time. 

 

I think that a few posts ago Meg did a really good job of pointing out that Sheldon feels a lot more pressure than he lets on, and I think that the show keeps us deliberately confused. We have talked about how Sheldon from season 1 seems to show up in the same episode as Sheldon from season 6 - at least in terms of what Sheldon has or should have learned by now. He can make "your momma" jokes about Raj's Mom and talk about Penny being hypnotized into oral sex with head movements, but merely a scene later let a very obvious sex reference fly over his head. But the idea that some of these references are really flying over his head is ridiculous - Amy calls him "sexy" to his face on multiple occasions. She has been straight forward (finally) about telling him she wants more from the relationship, and Sheldon made the move of taking that to role-play sex. Sheldon is not an idiot. HE KNOWS.

 

But Sheldon has issues - some really serious issues. Another thread on this forum asks why TBBT cannot be "The Sheldon Show" since he's the most popular character, and I couldn't even post on that thread because I think that's such a stupid question. Leonard's issues of insecurity and pursuing the hot girl and such are easy to relate to - they give you an "in" for the show. On the other hand, as interesting as Sheldon is, his issues are fucking tragic. He has problems that, as Penny once said, probably should be worked out in a therapists office with dolls. You cannot put someone as screwed up and with as many issues as Sheldon has front and center and build a show around him - it would be too depressing and probably pretty alarming. I think that the reason that the V-Day kiss was cut last season was because someone in authority - probably Prady - said that it was too early. Way too early - as messed up as they have made Sheldon, and as huge as his issues are, it was too soon to have Sheldon get over that barrier. There was still a lot of work to be done.

 

I think it's interesting that there are hints that the writers are trying to have their cake and eat it too, that, as Sursonica so wonderfully said, they are writing with one hand and erasing with their elbow. Or as my friend Marisol said, they give with one hand (Sheldon's "I like you, quirks and all" declaration at her door, only to take away with the other hand (I don't see any one banging down your door to put up with your nonsense, which is actually one of my favorite lines despite her door slam because it just so happens to be true), as the way of "keeping Sheldon Sheldon" (whatever the fucking hell that means) or trying to ease the majority of the audience along with his changes. What's funny is that the more they play this game of having Sheldon move forward romantically but then fall back romantically in an effort to please both the teams who want to make sure he stays the same and the team who wants him to grow up and move forward, they are actually pleasing very few. It basically takes the attitude which I think is best personified by Phanta, who has faith that Sheldon and Amy are end game and thus doesn't let any of the jokes or stupid details get in the way of her ship, to not be driven crazy by what's been going on with Sheldon's portrayal.

 

"What is Sheldon'd DEAL" I screamed in an email earlier this season to Marisol - and I think I've been yelling it in frustration for awhile now. "Are they really going to go through all of this extensive set up with Sheldon and Amy's relationship and yet somehow tease us that they may or may not pull the trigger? Just pull it already, your game of cock teasing is getting tiresome, writers." I might have said that too.

 

So thank goodness for the monkeys, because they are a little green statue that oh so subtly informs us that Sheldon, despite his ability to keep a straight face and appear innocent, is anything but. I think there's a reason why Sheldon's desire to play this prank on Amy came out of nowhere - again, whatever his motivation, especially if it's flirty or playful or sexual - has to be kept under wraps. The writers are trying to give as little away about it as possible until they decide to pull the trigger, but the monkeys are there again to suggest more is going on under the surface. That Sheldon's whole "I can't see your sexual hints, can't hear your sexual hints, won't say anything sexually suggestive and seem to mean it" is a big act. Notice that the monkey appear when Sheldon wants to give Amy a bath, the monkeys appear when Sheldon apparently comes up at random with the desire to spank Amy, that the monkeys appear when Sheldon wants to rub something on Amy's chest, that the monkeys appear when Sheldon wants to pull a prank on Amy that involves bringing her close to him and....I can't believe I'm typing this....things getting wet. No matter what's on the surface, the monkeys suggest that it's an act, and that Sheldon's motives are not so pure, and that he's exploring some sort of naughty boundary in his usual indirect and probably rather messed up kind of way.

 

So it's not just Amy - Sheldon is making his own steps forward, and he definitely has sex on his mind. In fact, I think that Sheldon is putting way more pressure and anxiety on himself than anything that Amy is doing. But the writers refuse to show us any of this in any remotely clear or straight forward way, because Sheldon's "deal" remains the master mystery that they don't want to solve or have out in the open until they are absolutely, 100% ready.

 

In the meantime, we just get hints that there's a lot of "monkey business" behind Sheldon's facade.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Lionne

[ShamyVixen]

Never knew about the 3 monkeys thing, thats very interesting. 
My view is that sometime between deciding on the spanking and carrying it out sheldon partly realised it was sexual, especially as he is wary of the music and tells amy she isn't supposed to be enjoying it. Like Chiany said I feel the scene was halfway between sheldon is just punishing her and is oblivious to the sexual aspect of it and Shelly knows its sexual and maybe the punishment is a cover up...

I have always been so curious about the bath scene. Was she fully naked? Did he really bathe a naked amy farrah fowler? He must have used gloves right? Did he enjoy it!?!?

So many unanswered questions:(

 

 

 

Lionne : 

That Sheldon's whole "I can't see your sexual hints, can't hear your sexual hints, won't say anything sexually suggestive and seem to mean it" is a big act. Notice that the monkey appear when Sheldon wants to give Amy a bath, the monkeys appear when Sheldon apparently comes up at random with the desire to spank Amy, that the monkeys appear when Sheldon wants to rub something on Amy's chest, that the monkeys appear when Sheldon wants to pull a prank on Amy that involves bringing her close to him and....I can't believe I'm typing this....things getting wet. No matter what's on the surface, the monkeys suggest that it's an act, and that Sheldon's motives are not so pure, and that he's exploring some sort of naughty boundary in his usual indirect and probably rather messed up kind of way.

Your post was really insightful, especially this part. All this 'monkey business' has got me thinking, and I now believe/agree that Sheldon kind of wanted to do those things does, He does have ulterior motives that are not so innocent as he'd like people to believe. I like it ..

At least we know that if he did see her naked, he'll never forget it.. (eidetic memory ftw.)

Edited November 20, 2013 by ShamyVixen

[rachelshamyfan]

I thought the spanking was just a fun moment

[Chiany]

I have always been so curious about the bath scene. Was she fully naked? Did he really bathe a naked amy farrah fowler? He must have used gloves right? Did he enjoy it!?!?

So many unanswered questions:(

At least we know that if he did see her naked, he'll never forget it.. (eidetic memory ftw.)

 

I brought the same point of before, I believe he did see her naked in there.

Not sure if he enjoyed it, but he did not mind at least.

 

And it's pretty safe to assume Amy enjoyed it, based on the look she threw Bernadette, before dissapearing in the bathroom.

 

Another reason why I think Sheldon has seen her naked is in the Parking lot episode, where she showed him her waxed bikini zone, in the back of her car....

[koops]

I agree with both of you, Meg and Lio, as always.

 

The only thing is that I honestly don't feel like Sheldon's issues are effing tragic or he's so screwed up he'd be depressing to watch on his own. If anything, I think seeing someone with his issues navigate through the world and even being able to negotiate a relationship as successfully as he has over the past three years (bumps aside) is actually very heart-warming. That's one of the reasons I always appreciated the show and despise fanfiction that turns Sheldon in this moody, dark and dramatic messed up character. The show takes issues and goes "Look, it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom all the time". The reason why I personally feel like the Sheldon show is not sustainable is because it's thanks to the people around him that even issues like his can be made heart-warming and inspiring. And I would hate for the show to lose that kind of approach to the whole thing in the name of drama and tension. There are plenty of dramas out there who tackle this kind of issues, but I've never seen a show do it in such a feel-good manner.

 

As for the whole "deal" business, like I was telling you the other day, Lio, I think it's very much the case of that Sheldon's acceptance and awareness of his emotions and his sexual desires do not go hand in hand. Emotionally, he's miles ahead than sexually. I broke down the last 3 1/2 seasons in terms of emotional development as:

 

"Amy wants a boyfriend, take her off my hands" --> She's not for you! --> With the understanding that nothing changes, whatsoever, I will allow us to label you as my girlfriend --> "You're my girlfriend..." (multiple times in S6) --> "We are a couple, she's my cute little lump of wool, isn't she great!!!!"

 

Now look at the sexual progression:

 

Nothing --> Fascinating --> Don't stop/Unconscious handholding --> "Working on it"/D&D sex --> Drunken ass slap as of the most recent development --> ?

 

The D&D sex, to me, is the equivalent of "With the understanding that nothing changes, whatsoever, we can have pretend role play sex". So, for all intents and purposes, Sheldon's "deal" is about 1 1/2 - 2 seasons behind the point he's at emotionally. Following the season of "With the understanding that nothing changes", we had him accept his role as a boyfriend and state this out loud multiple times. And that started off from a drunken confession to Penny about being scared she'd leave him. So, I'm hoping that what we're seeing right now, with the drunken ass-slaps and declarations of pride in his girlfriend, is the beginning of that acceptance we saw in S6. And because there wasn't one defining moment in the above timeline of emotional progress where Sheldon went from "Take her off my hands!" to "My cute little lump of wool!", I expect the sexual aspect of this relationship to develop in a similar manner. I am done with waiting for the episode where things will suddenly change because, frankly, it's unlikely to ever come. Chances are we will wake up to a script in S8 where we are all going to go OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING! only to look back on what happened in S7 and realize that it was a gradual buildup to the physical equivalent of the "cute little lump of wool" all season long. Or, at least, that's what I'm hoping. 

 

As for the bath, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point that were to be referenced again. Until then, I think the writers deliberately wanted to leave the possibilities open and that's why they had it happen off screen. Not that I think they would have ever shown the proper bath on screen (LOL this is 8pm television) but if they had wanted to make the point, one way or the other, about Sheldon seeing her naked, they would have shot the scene in a way that made that point come across very clearly. Instead, we hear him call out to her from the bathroom and, next thing we know, he's suddenly decided to call her bluff. Given what we found out in 6x14 about his reasons to do all the things he did, I find it interesting that the bath is where he drew the line.

 

eta: And, yes, his bath suggestion came right on the heels of the episode about the bikini wax. Did someone want to get a better look?

 

I also find that when people complain about these characters, and Sheldon in particular, not developing organically, is because we are used to a type of television that spells things out for you and takes you by the end through life-altering events that change the course of the character's history. But, in reality, people don't change like that, they do evolve more along the lines of what Sheldon is doing, like Jim was saying in the Electromagnetism interview: it's a constant series of bigger or smaller blips and he's not going to suddenly stop doing X or suddenly start doing Y, but, rather, he will start doing Y while still occasionally doing X, until X slowly fades away for the most part. That's what happened with his embracing of being a boyfriend and being a couple. And, of course, it's often artificially dragged out for business and storytelling decisions too. 

Edited November 20, 2013 by koops

[Susana Alcira]

The Parking spot was 6 x 9 and The Fish Gots was next to it, 6 x 10. And when Sheldon tells P/L he is quite fond of Amy, he ONLY mentions the rubbing chest(it was on 6 x 14)And, as we know, SHAMY didn´t mention to P/L what really happened during D&D in 6 x 23!