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7.01 "the Hofstadter Insufficiency" (September 26)

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I agree with you that Leonard is committed to Penny now and every-time they have been an actual couple (and some of the time they were not a couple too). I'm also saying he has had plenty of relationships when things were off with Penny where he was not committed to whoever he happened to be with but was having sex just like Penny has done with him. Perhaps still pinning over Penny at the same time. I also agree that Penny was not under an obligation to commit.

 

I'm also saying though that I believe consent alone does not make it alright. It might be alright legally. I'm just saying if one cares about the well being of their friend they will avoid bestowing this great gift on an adhock basis for fear of hurting and harming their friend with who they still want a future friendship. I'm making the bold general statement just avoid risking making people vulnerable if your not ready to commit. This sort of idea may not be so popular in contemporary culture but it is something I believe. I'm so sorry to see so many hurt vulnerable wounded people. I would not want to risk doing that to someone.

That's my point tho Leonard and Penny are both adults, they knew the chances of them lasting were not great, but were both consenting adults and wanted the relationship really badly. Apart from Penny breaking up with Leonard which was the best thing for their relationship, at that present point of time, apart from Leonard's feelings getting hurt, I don't see any physical repercussions or effect on anyone at all. Like you said they are now both happy and stable in their relationship.

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I'm also saying though that I believe consent alone does not make it alright. It might be alright legally. I'm just saying if one cares about the well being of their friend they will avoid bestowing this great gift on an adhock basis for fear of hurting and harming their friend with who they still want a future friendship. I'm making the bold general statement just avoid risking making people vulnerable if your not ready to commit. This sort of idea may not be so popular in contemporary culture but it is something I believe. I'm so sorry to see so many hurt vulnerable wounded people. I would not want to risk doing that to someone.

 

While I believe you are coming from a good place, and are not ill intentioned in your comments, I think you are wrong. You are right that consent alone doesn't make it alright, but if you think about it commitment alone doesn't make it right either, and even if commitment exists the probability of getting hurt exists as well. There can also be , to use your words "hurt vulnerable wounded people" as a result of a commited relationship that has ended. What I am trying to say is that the possibility of hurting someone, or of being hurt will always exist wether it is a committed relationship or not. The decision to be made is if you are willing to take a risk or not of doing something or getting involved with someone. If you believe the reward is worth the risk, usually the answer is yes.

There never are any guarantees. I think that the only important thing is to walk into something with your eyes wide open, and with the best intentions, and to always aspire to not hurt anyone intentionally. Obviously this has to be a common goal. Whatever happens after that, nobody can know in advance.

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The part that upset Sheldon was the deception.

 

You mean like the deception on Sheldon's part, where he kept the secret that Leonard's mother kissed him.  Heck Beverly, Penny, and Sheldon kept it from Leonard but I guess that is okay since it's only Leonard it was kept from.

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You mean like the deception on Sheldon's part, where he kept the secret that Leonard's mother kissed him.  Heck Beverly, Penny, and Sheldon kept it from Leonard but I guess that is okay since it's only Leonard it was kept from.

I think this is two different scenerios. If Leonard really wanted to know he could of found out. He decided to drop it. What Leonard(and Penny) did was deception because Sheldon would of wanted to know that and he didn't get that option. Granted I have no sympathy for Sheldon in this instance.(and in general)

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You mean like the deception on Sheldon's part, where he kept the secret that Leonard's mother kissed him.  Heck Beverly, Penny, and Sheldon kept it from Leonard but I guess that is okay since it's only Leonard it was kept from.

 

Oh, please.  Why don't you go through every single person on the show and see if they ever kept anything from anyone.  Since they are FICTIONAL characters, who knows how many secrets they may or may not have kept.

 

And poor, poor Leonard is just completely in the dark.

 

The fact that his mother kissed Sheldon while she was drunk isn't really something that Leonard needs to know to make his life complete.  Just like he doesn't need to know the details of his mother's menopausal symptoms.

 

The things that she kept from him and shared with Sheldon that he was upset about were things that truly affected his life, not whether or not his mother gave Sheldon a drunken ambush kiss.  It's not as if she slept with Sheldon or as if he reciprocated or as if she fell in love with him.

 

Does he also need to know that she wanted to grope the busboy at the Cheesecake Factory?

 

Yes, Sheldon exaggerated the meaning or significance of Leonard's deception in not telling him he was coming home earlier than expected.  But I don't think Leonard did anything wrong.  Sheldon getting upset over it doesn't mean that it was wrong.  That's just Sheldon seeing everything from his own perspective and not understanding anyone else's perspective.

 

If anyone is saying that Leonard was in the wrong, then they're overreacting just like Sheldon.

 

But it's also overreacting to act as if everyone needs to bow down and kiss poor long-suffering Leonard's feet over everything.

 

IT'S A COMEDY, for pete's sake.

Edited by phantagrae

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But it's also overreacting to act as if everyone needs to bow down and kiss poor long-suffering Leonard's feet over everything.

But there seems to be an oversensitivity IMO by some people (not necesaarily meaning you) to always defend Sheldon when he constantly screws up.

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why would leonard want to know that .. do u want to give him more nightmares 

 

It's not about why would Leonard want to know.  I was giving an example where once again double standards was being used.  Leonard is wrong for not telling Sheldon he was back earlier---- it's about Sheldon can do anything he wants and it's okay because he is Sheldon. 

 

It's about Leonard must always put Sheldon first and forget what he want because it may upset Sheldon. 

 

eta:  Aren't we told over and over that Sheldon can't lie? 

Oh, please.  Why don't you go through every single person on the show and see if they ever kept anything from anyone.  Since they are FICTIONAL characters, who knows how many secrets they may or may not have kept.

 

And poor, poor Leonard is just completely in the dark.

 

The fact that his mother kissed Sheldon while she was drunk isn't really something that Leonard needs to know to make his life complete.  Just like he doesn't need to know the details of his mother's menopausal symptoms.

 

The things that she kept from him and shared with Sheldon that he was upset about were things that truly affected his life, not whether or not his mother gave Sheldon a drunken ambush kiss.  It's not as if she slept with Sheldon or as if he reciprocated or as if she fell in love with him.

 

Does he also need to know that she wanted to grope the busboy at the Cheesecake Factory?

 

Yes, Sheldon exaggerated the meaning or significance of Leonard's deception in not telling him he was coming home earlier than expected.  But I don't think Leonard did anything wrong.  Sheldon getting upset over it doesn't mean that it was wrong.  That's just Sheldon seeing everything from his own perspective and not understanding anyone else's perspective.

 

If anyone is saying that Leonard was in the wrong, then they're overreacting just like Sheldon.

 

But it's also overreacting to act as if everyone needs to bow down and kiss poor long-suffering Leonard's feet over everything.

 

IT'S A COMEDY, for pete's sake.

 

Of course I know it's a COMEDY!

 

Oh so you are telling me that some of Sheldon fans don't overreact when poor little Sheldon gets his so-called feelings hurt when he doesn't get his way.  This character rarely if ever get his comeuppance and those of us voice our opinion on the manner are told we are overreacting and that it is a comedy.  

I think this is two different scenerios. If Leonard really wanted to know he could of found out. He decided to drop it. What Leonard(and Penny) did was deception because Sheldon would of wanted to know that and he didn't get that option. Granted I have no sympathy for Sheldon in this instance.(and in general)

 

We have to agree to disagree on this.  I was giving an example where it's okay for Sheldon to keep something from Leonard and some say Leonard could have found out what was going on ---- when does Beverly every tell Leonard any thing? 

 

How many things have Penny and Sheldon kept from Leonard.   So, what I get is it's okay to deceit Leonard but not Sheldon.

 

 

eta:  correct the word doubt to double ----- :swoon:

Edited by ArmyGirl
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It's not about why would Leonard want to know.  I was giving an example where once again doubt standards was being used.  Leonard is wrong for not telling Sheldon he was back earlier---- it's about Sheldon can do anything he wants and it's okay because he is Sheldon. 

 

It's about Leonard must always put Sheldon first and forget what he want because it may upset Sheldon. 

 

eta:  Aren't we told over and over that Sheldon can't lie? 

 

Of course I know it's a COMEDY!

 

Oh so you are telling me that some of Sheldon fans don't overreact when poor little Sheldon gets his so-called feelings hurt when he doesn't get his way.  This character rarely if ever get his comeuppance and those of us voice our opinion on the manner are told we are overreacting and that it is a comedy.  

 

 

I think you meant double standards. @phantagrae I don't usually agree with @ArmyGirl but this time IMO she's right.

Edited by Chrismo

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First of all, I don't think that avoiding telling Leonard about Beverly kissing Sheldon is deceit.  They didn't tell him something that happened, but they also didn't lie to him about it.  That's the main difference.  No one lied and said, "No, your mother did not kiss Sheldon."  They omitted information, yeah, but it was extraneous information that didn't really make a difference if he knew, except to perhaps besmirch his image of his mother (depending on what one thinks his image of his mother is.)

 

At any rate, I don't agree that Sheldon should be defended at all costs, HOWEVER, I think you need to look at the construct of the show and how Sheldon's behavior is usually used.  Yes, he's selfish and egotistical, but it's not as if nobody knows that about him.  As Jim said, part of how the audience is intended to take his behavior is dictated by how the other characters react to his behavior.

They know how he is and they know pretty much how he's going to behave--hence all the "Here we go" phrases that get muttered when he's about to go off on one of his explanations or whatever.

 

When he behaves badly, you see it in the reactions of the other characters--they either chastise him, ignore him, or let it roll off their backs because they're willing to put up with him.

 

Sometimes we get an angry reaction, like when Leonard yelled at him for hacking his Facebook page and changing his relationship status with Dr. Stephanie.  But, of course, in the end, Sheldon's move turns out to be a good one for Leonard.

 

And oftentimes that's how things turn out when Sheldon does something controversial--like when he "sabotaged" Leonard's relationship with Leslie Winkle.  If you think about it, that was pretty much a non-relationship to begin with.  It might have been fun for Leonard to have a girlfriend to smooch with and possibly sleep with, but how did he get into that relationship?  It wasn't because Leslie Winkle all of a sudden fell in love with him, or he with her.  She was still using him as she had done before, she simply changed the parameters--she wanted to do the traditional gf/bf thing, and she apparently picked Leonard because he was the least objectionable or whatever.  And in the end, Sheldon ultimately did Leonard a favor by exposing Leslie for who and what she was.

It was a story intended to last only one episode, not to be an ongoing romance for Leonard.

 

When he blackmailed Leonard and Priya about the RA, again, the reason he was able to do it was that the relationship with Priya was flawed as well.  She valued the deception of her parents over the truth about Leonard and that was an important weakness to expose.  Not that Sheldon did it for Leonard's sake, but I think that the intent of the writers was to defend Sheldon's RA, but also to expose Priya and one of her flaws.

 

And of course, there's Leonard's deception of Sheldon with the North Pole experiments.  While the guys kept the original data, it's true that they deliberately set out to deceive Sheldon--and it was Leonard's idea, mind you--for their own peace of mind.  Though they were reacting to Sheldon's apparent bad behavior or attitude or whatever, still it was a pretty controversial step to take.

Unfortunately, the deception was compounded by Sheldon's own ego and pride, but it began with Leonard and the guys lying to him.

 

So I think what I'm saying is that whatever ups and downs the guys have in their relationships, they react to each other's behaviors in a manner consistent with their characterizations, and ultimately all is forgiven because A) they are friends and are willing to forgive, and B ) it's not a drama and no one is going to be irreperably harmed by the others.

 

I think it's pointless to try to paint any one of them as the bad guy because there are no bad guys on this show.  Yes, one will do something that hurts someone else's feelings, intentionally or not, but ultimately that act or behavior will be forgiven.

 

If they can forgive each other, why can't we forgive them as well?

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I think you meant double standards. @phantagrae I don't usually agree with @ArmyGirl but this time IMO she's right.

 

Yes, I did mean double standards and thanks for catching my mistake.

 

 

eta:  So Sheldon keeping the secret that your best friend mother kissed your isn't lying.  Sheldon can not only lie, he can keep secret which the writers loves to drop anvils on our heads telling us he can't do.

Edited by ArmyGirl
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First of all, I don't think that avoiding telling Leonard about Beverly kissing Sheldon is deceit.  They didn't tell him something that happened, but they also didn't lie to him about it.  That's the main difference.  No one lied and said, "No, your mother did not kiss Sheldon."  They omitted information, yeah, but it was extraneous information that didn't really make a difference if he knew, except to perhaps besmirch his image of his mother (depending on what one thinks his image of his mother is.)

 

At any rate, I don't agree that Sheldon should be defended at all costs, HOWEVER, I think you need to look at the construct of the show and how Sheldon's behavior is usually used.  Yes, he's selfish and egotistical, but it's not as if nobody knows that about him.  As Jim said, part of how the audience is intended to take his behavior is dictated by how the other characters react to his behavior.

They know how he is and they know pretty much how he's going to behave--hence all the "Here we go" phrases that get muttered when he's about to go off on one of his explanations or whatever.

 

When he behaves badly, you see it in the reactions of the other characters--they either chastise him, ignore him, or let it roll off their backs because they're willing to put up with him.

 

Sometimes we get an angry reaction, like when Leonard yelled at him for hacking his Facebook page and changing his relationship status with Dr. Stephanie.  But, of course, in the end, Sheldon's move turns out to be a good one for Leonard.

 

And oftentimes that's how things turn out when Sheldon does something controversial--like when he "sabotaged" Leonard's relationship with Leslie Winkle.  If you think about it, that was pretty much a non-relationship to begin with.  It might have been fun for Leonard to have a girlfriend to smooch with and possibly sleep with, but how did he get into that relationship?  It wasn't because Leslie Winkle all of a sudden fell in love with him, or he with her.  She was still using him as she had done before, she simply changed the parameters--she wanted to do the traditional gf/bf thing, and she apparently picked Leonard because he was the least objectionable or whatever.  And in the end, Sheldon ultimately did Leonard a favor by exposing Leslie for who and what she was.

It was a story intended to last only one episode, not to be an ongoing romance for Leonard.

 

When he blackmailed Leonard and Priya about the RA, again, the reason he was able to do it was that the relationship with Priya was flawed as well.  She valued the deception of her parents over the truth about Leonard and that was an important weakness to expose.  Not that Sheldon did it for Leonard's sake, but I think that the intent of the writers was to defend Sheldon's RA, but also to expose Priya and one of her flaws.

 

And of course, there's Leonard's deception of Sheldon with the North Pole experiments.  While the guys kept the original data, it's true that they deliberately set out to deceive Sheldon--and it was Leonard's idea, mind you--for their own peace of mind.  Though they were reacting to Sheldon's apparent bad behavior or attitude or whatever, still it was a pretty controversial step to take.

Unfortunately, the deception was compounded by Sheldon's own ego and pride, but it began with Leonard and the guys lying to him.

 

So I think what I'm saying is that whatever ups and downs the guys have in their relationships, they react to each other's behaviors in a manner consistent with their characterizations, and ultimately all is forgiven because A) they are friends and are willing to forgive, and B ) it's not a drama and no one is going to be irreperably harmed by the others.

 

I think it's pointless to try to paint any one of them as the bad guy because there are no bad guys on this show.  Yes, one will do something that hurts someone else's feelings, intentionally or not, but ultimately that act or behavior will be forgiven.

 

If they can forgive each other, why can't we forgive them as well?

I understand what your saying but I don't think this is all about the characters on the show but the audience that watches it as well. Here's a scenerio -  Amy gets drunk and sleeps with Penny's friend Zack. There's a way I'm sure of making that funny. Would people be forgiving?. Heck, Amy has needs.  I'm sure a segment of this forum would be very upset if that happened. Others might find it hysterical. Like you said if they were able to forgive each other, could we forgive them as well? IMO probably not. (I know this sounds like a fan fiction)

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I understand what your saying but I don't think this is all about the characters on the show but the audience that watches it as well. Here's a scenerio -  Amy gets drunk and sleeps with Penny's friend Zack. There's a way I'm sure of making that funny. Would people be forgiving?. Heck, Amy has needs.  I'm sure a segment of this forum would be very upset if that happened. Others might find it hysterical. Like you said if they were able to forgive each other, could we forgive them as well? IMO probably not. (I know this sounds like a fan fiction)

 

I think that's a pretty extreme step and probably further than the writers would ever go--it does indeed sound like a fanfiction.

 

The point is what the writers do in character as part of the storyline.  I think that the thing with Penny and Raj is one example--we didn't find out until the next season that they didn't actually have sex together, which was intended to partially alleviate the controversy of it, but the situation was also different in that case.  Although Leonard has of course been in love with Penny, at the time it happened, they were not together and Leonard was with Priya, even if she was leaving to go back to India.  So though it might have been hard to take, neither of them was betraying anyone.

 

If the scenario you describe were to happen, that would be a major betrayal, therefore would probably never happen.

 

The arguments and so-called betrayals (as Sheldon would deem them) that happen among these friends are never major enough that they can't get past them.  So, though someone's feelings might get hurt, like Sheldon's in the Deception episode, or Amy's in Isolation, or whatever, there are apologies or someone else steps in, as Howard does in this case, and talks some sense into the situation.

 

Again, just because a character perceives something in a certain way--the way Sheldon sees Leonard's behavior as a "deception" and some kind of indicator that he is not to be trusted--doesn't mean that it's the truth.

Just as Bill Prady commented last season that just Penny thinks that no girls ever play D&D doesn't mean that it's true, then just because Sheldon thinks that Leonard's "deception" was a betrayal or an indicator of Leonard's character doesn't mean that it was intended the way Sheldon imagines.

 

Yes, Leonard didn't tell Sheldon he was getting home earlier than planned, and yes, perhaps he did deceive Sheldon by hiding out at Penny's apartment, but it wasn't because, as Sheldon believed, Leonard was inherently deceptive.  Sheldon took his hurt feelings and blew them out of proportion, as he often does.

Leonard was exasperated with him, but didn't hate him for it.

 

If there is a so-called "double-standard" in how the fans perceive the characters' flaws, it's not because the writers intend it, but because some fans take every little thing too much to heart, whether they are Leonard fans or Sheldon fans or whatever.

 

I think that the writers know where the boundaries are and they're not going to push the characters beyond those boundaries.  Like I said, there are no bad guys and no one's going to do something as bad as the scenario you put forth.  That's the point.  The writers aren't going to put the characters in such positions because they want the situations to be easily and quickly forgiven.

 

Even when it comes to shenanigans at the university, it's all played for fun.  Sheldon's "foamy vengeance" didn't get him fired, nor were they any consequences visited upon him because it's a sitcom and such things aren't going to be dragged out--unless it were to create more funny circumstances.

Some interviewer asked JP about that episode just after it aired and asked him, in all seriousness, what was going to happen to Sheldon and if Raj was really going to go back to India.

And Jim said, no, it's a sitcom, there aren't going to be any real repercussions.

 

I see the show and the characters as sort of a scenario where the characters are all in a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean.  Every now and then somebody goes a little nuts and stands up in the boat, or threatens to throw themselves into the sea or whatever.

The other characters ultimately talk the troublemaker into sitting back down--it may be that the troublemaker needs to have his ego balloon popped, it may be that he or she needs to be comforted, or scolded, or whatever.

But ultimately, they all sit back down and go back to bobbing along calmly on the ocean.

 

No one is going to be thrown to the sharks.

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I think that's a pretty extreme step and probably further than the writers would ever go--it does indeed sound like a fanfiction.

 

 

 

If there is a so-called "double-standard" in how the fans perceive the characters' flaws, it's not because the writers intend it, but because some fans take every little thing too much to heart, whether they are Leonard fans or Sheldon fans or whatever.

 

 

It could happen if the Shamy was on "a break" (Friends). I wouldn't see that as a major betrayal (I suppose others would). I used to go on the "shamy" site so I do understand the take everything to heart. I think. I made a comment on there long ago and learned never to go back. :banghead:

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It could happen if the Shamy was on "a break" (Friends). I wouldn't see that as a major betrayal (I suppose others would). I used to go on the "shamy" site so I do understand the take everything to heart. I think. I made a comment on there long ago and learned never to go back. :banghead:

 

I don't think that's the tone they're ever going to take with TBBT or with the Shamy in particular.  I don't think one can easily predict what this show will do simply by looking at other sitcoms.  While there are generally some broad tropes, I think the writers are very narrow about what kinds of stories work with these characters and what kind don't.

 

I think that at this point there's no going back for Sheldon and Amy--no splits, no "breaks" etc.  That's not the story that's being told with these characters and they are certainly not like Ross and Rachel.

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You mean like the deception on Sheldon's part, where he kept the secret that Leonard's mother kissed him.  Heck Beverly, Penny, and Sheldon kept it from Leonard but I guess that is okay since it's only Leonard it was kept from.

It was Sheldon that was upset by the deception not me. He was upset by Leonard's deception not his own.

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While I believe you are coming from a good place, and are not ill intentioned in your comments, I think you are wrong. You are right that consent alone doesn't make it alright, but if you think about it commitment alone doesn't make it right either, and even if commitment exists the probability of getting hurt exists as well. There can also be , to use your words "hurt vulnerable wounded people" as a result of a commited relationship that has ended. What I am trying to say is that the possibility of hurting someone, or of being hurt will always exist wether it is a committed relationship or not. The decision to be made is if you are willing to take a risk or not of doing something or getting involved with someone. If you believe the reward is worth the risk, usually the answer is yes.

There never are any guarantees. I think that the only important thing is to walk into something with your eyes wide open, and with the best intentions, and to always aspire to not hurt anyone intentionally. Obviously this has to be a common goal. Whatever happens after that, nobody can know in advance.

 

There is no doubt that making a commitment involves making a leap of faith. Making a commitment also includes ones intellect because it involves making a conscious decision. If it is a real commitment this decision is going to take some time and deliberation because it involves making a sincere gift of oneself. It is a fully human activity. Mere consent in the context of TBBT does no imply any of this.

 

I see you are talking about reward and risk but I don't see that you are talking about doing a good for the other. Putting yourself at risk for the sake not only of yourself but for the sake of the other too. Commitment is necessary because it means you are looking out for the other as much as you are looking out for yourself. One can do that if they are committed. By the way this is what made Howard a better man once he was engaged. Even Penny was struck by the words he used in his apology to Bernadette for his past and that was one of the most moving moments in the entire series.

 

Edited by djsurrey
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There is no doubt that making a commitment involves making a leap of faith. Making a commitment also includes ones intellect because it involves making a conscious decision. If it is a real commitment this decision is going to take some time and deliberation because it involves making a sincere gift of oneself. It is a fully human activity. Mere consent in the context of TBBT does no imply any of this.

 

I see you are talking about reward and risk but I don't see that you are talking about doing a good for the other. Putting yourself at risk for the sake not only of yourself but for the sake of the other too. Commitment is necessary because it means you are looking out for the other as much as you are looking out for yourself. One can do that if they are committed. By the way this is what made Howard a better man once he was engaged. Even Penny was struck by the words he used in his apology to Bernadette for his past and that was one of the most moving moments in the entire series.

 

 

Yeah that worked for Howard and Bernadette because they are very different people, and wanted different thing's from their relationship then Leonard and Penny did. Penny based on her many relationship's never had a serious relationship, so is not used to being in a relationship which is not purley physical in anyway. You got to consider everything went it comes to forming a relationship, Howard and Bernadette both have very similar ideals and commonlarities, because they both share the same world views, they are both Physicists from different fields, but their world has no dechatomy. With Penny and Leonard they share very different world views, Penny is idealistic, fun, free spirited, has a passion for being a star. Leonard although shares the same common goals as Penny, if it is from work, to love, to friend's e.t.c. They both want what anyone want's in life love and success. So getting married and making a full commitment based on their intellectual compatibility, worked for Howard and Bernadette, but Penny and Leonard being from very different world's, were always a work in progress.

 

Penny has made tremendous growth since meeting Leonard in the pilot, as has Leonard, their was never any implied time frame where Penny had to commit, or their was an obligation from Leonard or Penny at all. So I understand your point in terms of the context of the characters in TBBT, mere consent does not imply full bodied commitment, but I think consent is more the ability to reciprocate one's feeling's and intention's in a relationship, commitment take's a concious need for change in your life, and having that person effect your life over time, so relationship is all about compromise and trust. So seeing Penny has always been a work in progress, that is what has changed mostly she is compromising and trusting Leonard a lot more, hence why her emotional intimacy with Leonard has changed too.

 

Penny never had any intention of ever getting married, to be honest if she never meet Leonard and Sheldon, she would probably be still going around in circles dating the same type of looser over and over and over, the thing with Penny is it is not everyday a gorgeous girl with great personality, would befreind nerd's, it doesen't happen all the time haha. Take Alicia for example in S2, she took advantage of the guy's, and showed no interest of becoming friend's or getting to know the guy's at all. Where as Penny was genuine from the begginning, even Leonard inviting Penny to lunch, if it was another hot girl who just moved in either would of gently let them down, or told them to get lost nerd! lol. Point is Penny from the begginning was genuine, even when she eventually got to the guy's apartment, Sheldon in his eccentric eggheadish behaviour, could of turned her off. But she from the begginning came across warm, affectionate, and tolerant (pity that tolerance diddn't reach out to the looser's she dated ;)). What my point is really is Penny has always been a work in progress, take the young, idealistic girl who wanted to be a big star, and now take the girl who is now turning to a women, who's expectations of her life from her relationship's, to her friend's, to her hobbies, to her clothes has shifted the coventional standard's on it's heads. 

 

She dated gym guy's, for many reason's, her deeped seeded intimacy issues due to her relationship with her father (although that has been argued, but Beverley seemed to think it is true, and just like Sheldon just have to take her word for it ;)), her social peer's defined her commanlarities, subconciousley she was attracted to guy's that all suited her ideals of becoming a big star e.t.c. By Season 2 particualry The Barbarian Sublimation, thing's started to derail, her becoming a big movie star wasen't going to plan as she expected or hoped, she also haden't dated or had sex in 6 months to Leonard's delight, so she started to get addicted to online gaming specifically World's of Warcraft, she used it as an escape from her current reality, and as Leonard put it to boost her self esteem. She even started dressing unlike Penny, Sheldon felt the brunt of it lol. Where as she is not young, idealistic any more her expectations of her life have been de-constructed, and she no longer need's stardom to feel validated, it is her relationship's particualry Leonard that defines her self-actulization now. 

 

So when it come's to Penny commiting to Leonard, it has taken her time for her to grow and understand what she want's in her life and who she want's, their are no guarentee's in life especially when it come's to relationship's, regardless of how much you know someone, regardless of your intentions going into a relationship, regardless how much you love that person, all you can do is hope for the best, because the variables just cannot be predicated. The main thing is Penny has had moment's happen to her in Season 6, like Alex which made her reveal insecurities that she diddn't even realize she had, tbh Penny is more scared of loosing Leonard then committing to him. Really highlighted to her too that she needed to show a lot more commitment to Leonard and proove her worth, it showed her their are a lot of women out their who would love to have Leonard as a bf, and can offer him thing's more then just incredible good look's. As Penny is getting older now she is coming to term's that she need's more to bring to the table in their relationship, hence going back to college e.t.c. Leonard and Penny are endgame, but they are a work in progress, it took her six year's to till Leonard she love's him, so you can imagine how far a proposal is off ;) But they are happy, young and enjoying be with each other, Leonard though of late has been more assertive and less ardent in their relationship, but that is more a manisfestation of the expedition, they maybe building for the November sweeps, maybe Leonard get's a tad too cocky and Penny bring's him down to earth who knows, important thing is Leonard and Penny are both equals now, and Penny is showing proof of committing to Leonard a lot more then Season 3.

Edited by 3ku11

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3ku11 I want to respond but I don't have time to respond to most of this now. I'm just going to pick a couple of points that jumped out at me and then go to bed.

 

You got to consider everything went it comes to forming a relationship, Howard and Bernadette both have very similar ideals and commonlarities, because they both share the same world views, they are both Physicists from different fields, but their world has no dechatomy.

This might not be so important to the point you are trying to make but Howard is an Engineer and Bernadette is a microbiologist. Neither is a physicist. Perhaps more important Bernadette is from a Roman Catholic family and Howard is Jewish. Their backgrounds are not all that similar.

 

I don't think any of that is really all that relavent to my original point. It is surpising to me that Penny and Leonard are together because they have next to nothing in common. Also, by having sex too early they have harmed their relationship. They may servive this but I think they have gone through more anguish and pain than was necessary to get to where they are now. It has made for good comedy but the characters have had a difficult time. I understand Penny as a character and Leonard too. They have put more pressure on the relationship than needed to be there by jumping into bed before they were ready. That fact that Penny has a very long history of doing this may explain why she is the way she is but it does not help cut the inevitable tension in thier relationship.

 

Also, one need not get jealous over someone flirting with their significant other if they took their relationship slow at the beginning and did not jump into bed before being committed to each other. History makes a difference to the ease with which one can trust another.

 

Also, I only brought up Howard because he is a good example of someone becoming a better person as a result of making a commitment. He became a lot more worthy of Burnadette. Commitment is not some trivial thing. It changes people for the better.

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I don't think any of that is really all that relavent to my original point. It is surprising to me that Penny and Leonard are together because they have next to nothing in common. Also, by having sex too early they have harmed their relationship. They may survive this but I think they have gone through more anguish and pain than was necessary to get to where they are now. It has made for good comedy but the characters have had a difficult time. I understand Penny as a character and Leonard too. They have put more pressure on the relationship than needed to be there by jumping into bed before they were ready. That fact that Penny has a very long history of doing this may explain why she is the way she is but it does not help cut the inevitable tension in their relationship.

 

Also, one need not get jealous over someone flirting with their significant other if they took their relationship slow at the beginning and did not jump into bed before being committed to each other. History makes a difference to the ease with which one can trust another.

 

L/P did not have sex until two years after they met. Then they had sex for several months then stopped for two more years. It was shown that they were sexless for the first four months of the "Beta test", tried it once again then Leonard proposed and the sex stopped again.

 

L/P have spent far more time as friends without benefits than as sex partners.

Edited by BangerMain
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^Further to that point Leonard and Penny diddn't date for almost a year after their first date, because the date diddn't end with sex. One of the first date's Penny diddn't end in a physical based relationship, also Leonard helping Penny with her expenses, like paying rent e.t.c. They had a relationship that beyond sex, like above said they were friend's much longer then they were in a relationship. In Season 5 because of the Beta test, it was almost Lenny 2.0, a Beta version of their relationship, this consisted mostly of actually spending time together, and doing thing's together, although it seemed more contrived then natural like it was in Season 3, in the long run it made their relationship stronger.

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^Further to that point Leonard and Penny diddn't date for almost a year after their first date, because the date diddn't end with sex. One of the first date's Penny diddn't end in a physical based relationship, also Leonard helping Penny with her expenses, like paying rent e.t.c. They had a relationship that beyond sex, like above said they were friend's much longer then they were in a relationship. In Season 5 because of the Beta test, it was almost Lenny 2.0, a Beta version of their relationship, this consisted mostly of actually spending time together, and doing thing's together, although it seemed more contrived then natural like it was in Season 3, in the long run it made their relationship stronger.

 

  1. Penny did not actually know it was a date.
  2. It was a very awkward dinner.
  3. Leonard was bleeding after he hit his head under the table.
  4. Leonard was calm and cool for about 30 seconds only.

My point is it was not the lack of sex the resulted in them not having a date for a long time.

Penny herself talks about rebound sex and how she typically feels after it. Not good. Here is the clip.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2mtao0deTk

 

It becomes a little harder for me to go through and check how factual some of your other statements are since I don't have a box set of old episodes and even if I did who has time to review the whole series. I do recall that Penny herself has said on the morning after more than once that the night before was a mistake. Also, on more than one occasion Leonard has assumed the night before meant something that it actually did not (well once with Penny and once with Leslie Winkle just off the top of my head).

Edited by djsurrey

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L/P did not have sex until two years after they met. Then they had sex for several months then stopped for two more years. It was shown that they were sexless for the first four months of the "Beta test", tried it once again then Leonard proposed and the sex stopped again.

 

L/P have spent far more time as friends without benefits than as sex partners.

I have not kept notes on such things but if true this may have given their relationship it's resiliency.

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